Episode 5_OOO_V4

Summary: "Change Taps" podcast features Mike Lichtenfeld and Russell van den Berg, who transitioned from change management to out-of-office development focusing on leadership and team coaching. Both share their career journeys, interests in personal development, and the motivation behind starting "Out-of-Office Development." The company emphasizes leadership, team development, and outdoor experiences to foster personal growth and team cohesion. They work with teams at different performance levels, focusing on long-term investments in team development. Measuring success includes surveys and ongoing follow-ups to ensure positive outcomes. Hi, everyone, and welcome to Change Taps, the podcast for navigating your change management career. I am Judith Duesing, and today we are here with Mike Lichtenfeld and Russell van den Berg, two millennial men who both started as change practitioners and then diverged from their change management career path and started out-of-office development, which is a leadership and team coaching company with nature as a guiding inspiration and adventure as its core approach. Mike and Russell. Good morning. Good morning. Two Dutchies here. Me too. Very proud Dutchies. Really nice to have you on the show and also to still be connected 10 years later. Just a little bit of background for the Lichteners. The three of us all started 10 years ago at the same big four, specializing in change management. And since then, I have moved around a couple of times. I came back to the big four after two years. Mike, you have started there and then went somewhere else but still worked in change management and leadership development. And you are the one, Russell, who stayed all the way through. I've been waiting for you to come back, actually. We can talk more about it for you later when we talk about inspiration. Russell also worked in HR and then also learning and development. And then both of you decided to take the step to leave the corporate career path and start out-of-office development. So I would love to start with why did you feel that you needed to take that step and how has the journey been so far? Yeah, so first of all, thanks for having us. Good to see you and good to be here. Yeah, like you said, 10 years ago, we've met each other, starting in the same kind of same role in the same company. And now, 10 years later, it seems different. I've been in corporate world about 10 years. I saw different environments, first from a consulting point of view, then made the step towards the client side. I really liked different environments that I saw along the way. But after a while, I realized that I was missing the speed and the freedom to build something from scratch. Plus, I also found out very quickly, actually, that being in an office all day, every day, wasn't just for me. So before even that, earlier in my career, I started a short period of time in the military. And ever since, I've been fascinated by team and leadership development. So that's what I tried to implement when I was doing change management. But that was really my passion. So after a while, I thought this is, I think, what I want to do most, especially in combination with nature, also inspired by the military. So from that, I made the move to do something else. But I couldn't have done it without being in change management first, and saw a lot of environments because of that. OK. Thanks. Yeah, cool. Thanks for being here. While I took place on this table, I was also thinking about the 10 years back. And it's funny that you both play a buddy role for me when we started at the big four consulting firm 10 years ago. So it brought us back again. That's really cool. So really quickly, a buddy role, as you hear Wessel talk about, is an informal peer-level support person that's assigned to a new joiner, helps them settle and understand the company, and also connects them with other colleagues and resources. And so that was my role when Wessel joined Deloitte. And then I moved to the States. That role was then taken over by Mike. So that's why both me and Mike have played that buddy role for Wessel. I think for me, it was nice to share first that I've always been fascinated by people, by groups, by individuals. And that also was for me the decision to study psychology. But I really felt, after finishing my study of psychology, before I really want to work with individuals or groups, I think it will really enhance my impact if I know more about organizations and how an actual business works. So that, for me, was really a trigger to start my career in management consulting. Very happy with that. But I also felt, after some years, I think I observed myself that my interest was much more developing towards people, development of clients I worked with, the teams I worked with. And I found that more and more important in my career. And that, for me, was also triggering to do more courses in coaching. I'm an internal trainer at the company. When I did those coaching courses, I felt I wanted to do more and more with that. And I think a couple of years ago, that triggered Mike and me and Cedric to work on a really nice side job to build a really cool outdoor program for coaching weekend, personal development. And that just gave so much energy that we felt that seed is growing and growing. And so far, because that was part of your question as well, how has the journey been so far? For me, the journey so far has been very motivating. Feeling of building something out of ourselves, it's so energetic, while at the same time, it all cliches about entrepreneurship after such a long career in the corporate world are also all true. And more about that later, I think. Yeah. Nice. OK. And can you tell us both a little bit more about what internet out-of-office development does? Yeah, sure. From the moment I started working in teams, like we all do, I strongly believe that with a good leader and a strong team, you can take on pretty much everything. So no matter what challenges you are facing, I believe if you have the right team with the right leader, you can take it on. So that's also what we're believing with out-of-office is actually all about leadership and team development. We believe that real growth happens when you step outside of the familiar and explore the unknown. And we mean that quite literally because we try not to do it in an office. That's why we call it out-of-office. We take people outdoors into new environments where they can see things from a fresh perspective. And that's what we try to do. So we can take leaders outside, we can take teams outside, and really have some inspiration or some challenges over there that you can challenge yourself and face yourself. And at out-of-office, we develop what we call the shared leadership model. And the idea is simple but really powerful because we believe that leadership starts with you as an individual because that's where our foundation is. And you can only lead others if you know how to lead yourself. So that means really knowing yourself, taking responsibility, and acting from your values. And what we see is that step we skip, not always, but many times. And from there, we move on to building the team foundation. So who am I, can I add to a team? And from there, who we are as a team, what are our values, what are our strengths, what are our weaknesses? We have a psychological safe environment, for example. What are our goals and our visions? So really building towards a strong team from there. And then the first step, that is the outer circle, so to say, knowing what we are and who we are, what competencies and skills do we need to get there. From that model, we have been building and also are still building based on the needs, some interventions, some programs that we can do with the teams. And every question might be different, but the solutions kind of is not always the same, but the basis, of course, needs to be there. We have a strong team, we have strong people knowing themselves. And then the basis. Yeah, I think what I'm really proud of is that what we see is going outdoors, so living our name, that that really does something to break those more hierarchical or safe to be someone in your role, but break it a little bit open. And from there, you can really look towards yourself, open up to your colleagues, and really get to a new level of cooperation. That's really motivated me to do this work. And what we see with that, also based on research and outcomes of the programs, is that there's higher engagement and motivation in teams that people call in elastic, so lower obsidianism, and also more innovation. So that is just a few examples of what you can get out of it. And also people really just like to be in that team, and that's, I think, most important because you go to your work every day, and you need to like it, and also need to like the work of the people you work with, so why not invest in each other? You spend so much time at work, it better be nice. Yeah, that's true. You spend most time at work. Are the teams that come to you, are they teams that are already working well, or is it mostly teams that are dysfunctional? Both, actually. Yeah. Yeah, what we generally see, and I think they're also great that we have a change management background, I think what we've learned in change management is a client will always set a problem indication in a way that you feel like, okay, I could start on this superficial level immediately, but you always know there's something below the surface, and I think that's the same with teams. So many times you get the question, can you do something on collaboration, or we just need to spend some time together, and when you ask a bit the question behind the question, you always see that a bit more is needed, and you need to break open something. And from that change management point of view, I think the one-offs, like a training of four hours, doesn't make the change. It's like a long-term investment from a leader, from a team, of building towards something that you want to reach, and that can be already a high-performance team, or a team that is not functioning at all. Right, and are there any follow-ups after? Did you do a program, and then you thought you had some positive results, like how do you measure that, and are you still in touch with the teams, or the leaders of those teams to do the follow-up for? Yeah, on the one hand, we would like to work with the standard survey that the company already has, so what you see in a bigger organization, they usually have a pool survey, or part of the engagement measurement, we will always try to pick into that. We have our own survey as well, specifically for the elements that we are working on with the team, so we try to integrate that into the survey that the company already has. That sort of measurement, but on a more quality level, we really believe coaching, and division could be on a team level, but also on an individual level. That is key to make a change really stick in the team. We really should prevent that it's just a nice experience, and we go back into the office environment like we've done it before. Yeah, and I think next to that, next to the survey, we also try to talk to people, like not just the leader of the team, the formal leader, but also the individuals that are in the team, not all of them, but just to get a sense of what's happening in this team, and what's maybe the question behind the question, so that we really get a sense of what's going on, and that we move into a program with them with some more information already. And it's called shared leadership, because we believe that not only the formal leader is the one who should lead the team, but that everybody can have or might have a role, and also a responsibility to move the team further. And by knowing your strengths, and sharing that with the team, you can actually use each other's strengths instead of focus on the weaknesses. And you already mentioned there are some skills in change management, in your change management experience that you applied. What are some other, like when you think about the standard deliverable stakeholder analysis, change impact assessment, stakeholder engagement, or more like the emotional intelligence skills, facilitation, like what are some skills that you've built up over the last 10 years that you feel that you've really taken into out-of-office development? I think a lot, first of all, seeing the bigger picture, because I believe that leadership development and team development is an important part of change management. You can change processes, you can change structures, but without changing the people, nothing happening. So from the change management, I really took the ability to quickly understand what's really going on. I think that's what I just tried to explain as well. For example, the culture in the team and in the organization, the stakeholders, who has the formal or maybe not formal decision-making, what are the hidden norms, and also with that, I think storytelling and psychological safety, but also active listening is what we learn as consultants, of course, to influence what you can influence. So really fast understanding of the situation, I think is what I get out of it, and also what you just said, like the long-term measurement as part of a bigger program is something that we have done a lot of times, of course, so it's not... I like it. Yeah, well, I try to avoid those big slides, those big slide bits, to be honest, but we need to make sure that it sticks, and I think that's all what we learned at change management as well, with change management. Yeah, I think for me, the key thing that I took away from change management is that I think I got really attentive about the structure or the bigger system that the team is in, or sometimes the leader is in. I think what you see many times in change management, you get a strong eye or sharp eye on what are unhandy reinforcing mechanisms, for example, and that could be on the whole system level within the organization, but you also see that within the team. Yeah, yeah. Are some of those experiences because you felt you couldn't necessarily get to the core or start with the leader, but you weren't able to influence, is that also part of the reason that you wanted to start this? Yeah, very much. I think what I've seen in many of the assignments that I've done, that most of the energy of the project, the transformation we've been in, but also I think the energy of most of the people in the organization goes towards processes, building new policies to have even more control, building presentations, all to have insights together and have a feeling of being in control, and I really saw that it was super unconventional to just have an honest conversation about them. We're in this transformation and we feel we have serious challenges and maybe we have hard times to get to sleep at night but we don't speak about it. I think having really genuine, honest human conversations, that is what sparked me to do more with it. And for me, I think it's similar but different in a way. So after consulting, I moved to the other side, to the client side. I moved more towards leadership and team development compared to the broader change management. And from that roles, I saw that it allowed me to help people more directly and have an impact more directly. And then I also might work with my personal passion, which is help people and teams to develop, connect, or simply have a special time together, preferably using nature or focusing on wellbeing as a whole. I got the chance to work in the sports industry as well, which is close to my heart. And I love that roles and environment but after years in the corporate world, I realized that it wasn't just for me. So I started to look for other opportunities and I think that's what we call growth and you take all the experiences that you have with you, you learn from them, you get to know what you want, but maybe even more important, what you don't want. Connecting those dots, I think, for myself, led us to where we are right now. And then it's even better and nicer to do that with someone you started your career with 10 years ago. Your buddy. And also Cedric, of course, who also started at that big firm and is now also our third partner. Yeah, which I have to ask, did the analyst boot camp that we went on, did that have any early impact to coming to this? It's kind of like, for me, it's like coming full circle. I thought it was a really great experience. You mean having that experience together? Yeah. Yeah, and well, and also, I mean, this was early, maybe you already had it, I didn't have any such experience to go with your team outside of nature and I really appreciated it. I still really cherish those memories and I'm looking back in 10 years and I don't think I've ever done something like that again with any company that I've been at. Yeah, I think it really helps because I think that's something that's really great, that you work with people you don't know yet, with an experience like that, and you're already referring to it and that's what we believe in. Just a short amount of time together somewhere else, in nature, doing some stuff that you don't do in the office really connects the people and that's, yeah, now 10 years later, we still talk about it and we also still talk about it between each other because that's also something that happened during that weekend. I'm not sure if you're laughing and I'm not sure if you remembered it, but. Being on time? It's me being on time, which was, for me, at that moment of time, really important. That's why I was here at 10 a.m. this morning, guys, because I was like, I don't want to have this dude harassing me. Yeah, it was like something that happened between Cedric and me at that weekend and we didn't know each other that well, of course, but we were having a good night until very late, but we had an agreement with all of us that we were to present at 7 a.m. And a lot of us were waiting for 15 minutes, and I'm sorry, Cedric, it's coming back again, for you to wait. Everybody just agreed with that and was able to continue, but I really wanted to point it out because, like I said already, for me, I had a bit of background in the military and time is time and agreement is agreement, so I said something about it and I don't know why. I was also not that fresh, but I think it got us close together and if I believe Cedric, from that moment, he got a kind of respect, a mutual respect, which really helped us further. So it's just one quick moment a lot of years ago and with such a big impact. And now, I have to say, now I changed a little bit as well and I can be two minutes too late as well, so we all grow as human beings, but yeah, that experience is something that we really believe in and that's what we try to do as long as we're out of office. It's funny, indeed, how daring to speak up can really enhance a relationship as well. And I hope it doesn't have that impact on you that I need to be here on time because Mike is there. This stayed with me forever, also because I know you were in the military and I know you also sat at one time in a meeting with all the change management practitioners. I just don't understand why people get me on time. It's not a bad habit, but I'm happy to hear that you've became a little bit more flexible. Okay, so wanting to talk a little bit about career transitioning, we did some market research when I started this podcast and about 25% of the 50 people that filled out the survey were interested in alternative career paths. If there is a key message or advice that you could give to people that are thinking about that stuff, like what would it be? Yeah, it's funny. It took me a while as well to make this decision. So I've always believed, a bit more on a deeper level for myself, I've always had the trust or the belief that in the end, the decision that I will make will benefit each other. What I do see now is that a bit more broadening my experiences or even maybe even deepening, like we are now in a specific field of change management, I think, with what we do. But not in the traditional change management programs. But I think if I look forward now in 10, 15 years, I don't know where we are. But I'm very sure that all experiences that we do now will, in the end, lead to me or us being even better professionals. Looking forward, you can't always predict it, but looking backwards, you can see how it will add up. I think I totally agree with that and also next to that, sounds like a cliche, but I also think that cliches are there for a reason. It's really, follow your gut. And in the end, life is way too short to spend doing something you don't enjoy. And ask yourself, what do I want to get out of life and how does my work fit into that? And if you're stuck or don't know how to do that, then of course, we can help you with that. That's for sure, that's the next step, guys. I think within the Western world, we sometimes tend to forget how to listen to your feelings instead of your mind with everything going around. Some more practical advice is something, try it on ever and do something next to your work that you think is in line with something that you want and you don't have to switch your entire career already, but just try it maybe a few hours a week or a month even and talk to people who are doing something that you'd like to do. And with that, you can also understand if that's something that you really want. For example, for myself, for the last two years, I've been volunteering in a sauna, as a, writing sessions in saunas, it's called Outboost. And that experience really helped me to make the decision to step away from corporate life as an employee. It's sometimes those side adventures that gives you the clarity that you need. And it doesn't feel that heavy that you say goodbye to your job, but just try it in a smaller way. I know that you guys started doing the, I think it was the personal leadership development weekend twice a year, but you both still were working, I think full time. So that was already lingering, maybe for two or three years. And so you're saying that having the extra job at the sauna where you did something completely different was like, okay, now this is it. Like, I just gotta go for it? Yeah, and I think the organizing and facilitating the personal leadership weekends with the three of us, first of all, gave me the insight that I like to work more often at Nestle and NSAVIC, because it gave us so much energy and it was like really natural collaboration in that weekend. And also, luckily, we got really good feedback from the participants. So that also, for me, was an approval that this is something that we can do more often. So that was the first. It was also building some trust that we are able to do what we'd like to do. And this links to your end user feedback, which is very changeable. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. It's the invention, and it's also, can be believing yourself in your skills and in each other, and that you can do it together. And then the other side event, which was voluntary, really gave me so much energy to solve people getting into the sauna really stressed, and after just 15 minutes, get out more relaxed with a smile. And also there, yes, got the feedback, like this is something that you maybe can do more often. And for me, everything came together. So that's why we decided, and for myself decided, yes, I want to do more of this. Let's do it full time. Nice. And are you still doing the voluntary job at the sauna? Yeah. On Mondays, Monday evenings, yeah. I still remember that moment where you were not experienced in guiding sauna sessions, and that you saw a vacancy, and we talked about it. And it's so funny then that, what is it now? A year later or something? You feel super comfortable in guiding those sessions, and it was great. I've been there as well. But my guiding session, and it was indeed so funny. Like I facilitated sessions with him for professional organizations, for teams, and then I saw him in that environment, but it's just great that with one decision, very intuitively we felt you want to do that, and you make it happen, and you get positive feedback because it's really close to your heart. I really believe in that. Yeah, and also good that you just go for it. I think it's good for the listeners to hear that too. I think it's the same with starting this podcast. I'm talking to other practitioners, and they're like, oh, I want to start a podcast, but everything needs to be perfect and perfect. But I'm like, no, just get started. And don't make it too big. Yeah, right. And if it's not what you thought it was, then you can try something else. Thinking through any struggles with making the move, what are some things, I know you referenced in the beginning, all the things that come with entrepreneurship, they're all true, but what was the most challenging or something that you, maybe something you didn't anticipate? So something less cliche. Maybe a positive thing first. Sure. If I may, what I found super interesting is that I found out that I do really enjoy the business development side of being an entrepreneur and the networking. And I think that is because I'm genuinely interested in people's organization problems. So it goes very naturally to ask those questions, to meet new people, and really think about how can we help them. So that's super nice, to have that element now in the work as an entrepreneur. But what was much harder or different than I anticipated before is that you literally have to solve everything. So I remember, I think it was one of the first weeks, actually, that, okay, we have an opportunity, but mail addresses or templates in PowerPoint, for example, or we got stuck in IT help and we have no access for two days, and then you really feel like, okay, I missed the days in the corporate world where it was just one phone call away, and within two hours, I think I got a laptop delivered at my home, new mobile applications installed on it. So that's definitely different, but it also gives a lot of opportunities. And I'm happy in my career that I think we did it now, because after maybe a draft experience for 20, 25 years in your career, I think it might become harder to be in that position as well, to really find out everything yourself from scratch. Oh, so you're saying the boomer is up today? It doesn't have to be a generation. The more you get used to that, there are people who can solve your problems, and I think, yeah, some days we are kind of maybe very early stage interns. Like you just said in the previous question, for many people, it needs to be perfect to take another step, and what I didn't fully anticipate with that was having to be okay with not knowing and figuring out everything yourself, like Lesley just said, and having an employer you can call HR or your manager when you hit a wall. So as an entrepreneur, the safety net, because it's a safety net, that is gone, and you're the one who must find the answers, and sometimes even figure out what the real question or issue is in the first place, and then we can call each other, but we don't know both of us, so just figure it out. But luckily, we have each other as a safety net with him out of office, and also have a great safety net at home, so it's being, again, a cliche, comfortable with uncomfortable in the end, and then it will solve, it will be solved. You have to solve it, but maybe it takes two days instead of two hours by having an email address or a laptop, just as a small example, yeah. You strike me as the person, though, who is comfortable with the uncomfortable. Yes. Are you saying, and maybe like in the core, like the bigger problems, yes, but maybe with the smaller, like tiny things, entrepreneurial things, it's hard. Well, first of all, thanks. Being uncomfortable within a comfortable environment is different, because if something is uncomfortable, and you know that everything around it is good, you get your monthly salary, you can call your manager, and you go out of, you go back home from your job, and tomorrow is a new day, but this is something that's, yeah, it's happening seven days a week, 24 hours a day, and all the structure around it is also something that you need to build yourself, so that is real uncomfortable in the end, but yeah, I must say, it's getting, it's going way better compared to a year ago already, so I will take that in mind when I have to change the page, to clarify that again, I will think about your comment. Yeah. Yeah. All right, so thinking about our own generation, I think we're all millennials here, specifically for Change Managers that are millennials, what is some advice that you would give them? I have an episode before this with another millennial, she took a sabbatical for three or four months, and for her, she felt she needed to take that to pause, because otherwise she would not pause, and I mean, she's been working for seven years, and she feels she needs to achieve, and to go, and I'm like, you already did so much, so the sabbatical helped her to see that, but it is often said about millennials, that we are emotional, and we don't know what we want, and we get stuck, do you resonate with any of that? Yeah, I think as a millennial, I also can identify myself sometimes with the unrest that they say about Gen Z, but I also can see myself in more of the boomer side, where it's more like you have to work hard, and a bit of hierarchy is also effective, I feel, or I see. For me, that's not always been easy, but my advice would be, you have to really keep trying to see the bigger picture for yourself, and not every project, or client, or the day at your work is the best of your life. I think it's great to take regular, I don't know, maybe on a quarterly level, look back for yourself, what have you learned, and what were actually thankful development opportunities that you got, and I think that will keep you going on maybe sometimes tougher periods, or tougher areas of a project. On the other side, yeah, if you reflect on it for, I don't know, two, three quarters in a row, and you keep on having negative ideas on what you're doing, then I definitely see it's a moment to take initiative and change something, but I think that the unrest should be more seen on a longer time than on a weekly basis, for our generation, and the generations after. Loyalty, I think, is a very interesting topic there. In what way? Sometimes loyalty is great, because you need to give kind of a change, you need to give it time as well, and you can only see the impact of your efforts or your decisions after a while. It doesn't get overnight, but I think sometimes our generation might have the idea, oh, if I do something, it should be great immediately, and it should be a nine, at least. But if you ask other people, then, yeah, it won't be like that. Yeah, we restrict ourselves, I think, within our generation, and we also look to other people around us, and we think that they, like I just said, they have it better, but of course, we don't see everything. And coming back to your question, I also think, and that's also something that what we started with, is really take the time to get to know your strengths, your passions, but also your weaknesses. So really know yourself, and with that, I really mean really take the time. I'm a huge fan of taking sabbatical, but of course, I understand that that's not for everyone, and that's not an option, but it's great to maybe a longer period of time, or just a day, step out of your busy schedule, get into nature, slow down a bit, because we're also part of nature ourselves, and we tend to forget that, and maybe some answers are already there, but with all the bug going on around us, and all the challenges that we are facing, we just don't see it clear, and for me, that really helps. I have some examples that what I did, like, for example, taking a sabbatical, but also going on a holiday without taking your phone, so only have a phone for emergencies, with just a few phone numbers, and the things that you need on travel, but don't have all the apps on it, for example. For example, last January, I spent two weeks at the monks in Thailand. For me, it was also a great experience, and yeah, it's just two weeks, so everybody has two weeks of holiday, so just spend your time different, and then I think some clarity will come, but you need to be open for it in the first place. Understanding yourself and knowing yourself, I think you can be stronger towards other people on what you can bring, but also what you cannot bring, and also, yeah, feel better in that sense. Yeah, nice, for the, I also heard you talk about the psychologically safe environment. I'm just wondering what your, like, how you see this, because I do think it's good to know your weaknesses, but if you're not in an environment where you can share that, to me, it's, yeah, almost, I don't know how to say it nicely, but useless, because I've been in environments where I know what my weaknesses are, and then I share that, and then they're being used against you. And that is so to hear, and that's what we see more often, that that happens. So for us, having a safe environment, which is safe to share your doubts and your feelings is a key factor to move on as a team, and also to move on as individuals, because most individuals won't thrive in environments like that. And at one point, you take the decision to leave, or the company just doesn't grow further. Yeah, like you said, that's something that needs to be created. Otherwise, people are not able to form. I think factors for safety is really a fundament to get potential out of your colleagues. And also, as a manager, if you don't see the value out of it, yeah, your team could perform, but it won't be at a maximum potential. I know you are asking the question, but you shared an example that you left in environments like that. How is that for you? How was that for you? It was not great at all, and I left because of it. I was just working more and more hours to try to make up for things that I knew that I wasn't gonna be good at. I have three little ones. They were very little back then. Yeah, I had to start prioritizing them over anything else. I have to say, when I became a mom the first time, the company and I, they were very supportive. There was someone who was like, you need to know that you know, be very strict about your boundaries and how you're gonna go about your work and what you can and can't do. And I was very thankful for her. And so I did that in a lot of my projects and with my colleagues, that it was all respected. And so I think that example helped me to see that it's possible to do it that way. Then I moved to a different company where I gave the same boundaries and the same requirements or preconditions, and they were completely just obliterated. And so I knew that I don't have to put up with this, but it definitely had impact. I took two or three months to just not do anything because I was so dumb. Yeah, well thanks for sharing. And with that, I think that's an example of how not having an environment like that can have impact on individuals. Right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think the problem in that environment too was that they knew a lot, that a lot of employees had this feeling that the problem was not being tried to be solved at the core of where it came from. And you see that those individual cases many times only got seen after a really long time. And then I really hope that, and maybe I trust in that as well, to keep on going in the work, that there will be one day where that leader will feel like, okay, this is not the way to treat the people that work for me or that work in my company. And I think also, from a broader world perspective, I think we are getting there more and more, where more and more people are having that conviction. That psychological safety and treating people nicely is a must for success. Yeah, when I went to a leadership development course for the company that I work at now, I asked how, because they were like, how would you describe a leader? And it was about empathy and about listening and collaborating. And I was pleasantly surprised to hear that. I also asked, how does this differ from 10 years ago? And the coaches that were there that had been educating for a very long time, they said, before it was about project managing, hierarchy, being dominant, having a say, to, yeah, just more of a softer side. So I thought that was a really nice thing to see, how that has changed over time. Yeah, what we also see at companies is that, back in the days, if you talk about five, maybe 10 years ago, the only way to grow and to climb the ladder was to lead a team. But that's not for everyone, because if you're an expert in the field and or a specialist and really good in the content, it's not necessarily that you are able to lead a team as a people manager. So what we see now, they're different tracks. So you can grow and you can make promotions, but also having that specialist role, so really into the content. And the other part is really the people leader side of things, that you focus on the teams. And with that distinction, I think companies who are on that distinction and have that track that they're better teams, and also more safe environments, because the leader is really creating that, because that leader is able to do that. So that for me was, it's an eye opener, that also big companies make that shift. Okay, thinking about change practitioners that are just starting out in the field. So 10 years back from when we started, what is some advice that you have for them? Ooh, yeah, fine flight. If I could give one piece of advice to someone just starting, it would be this, work hard in the first place, but also enjoy the ride, and to stay open to whatever comes your way. Don't be too harsh for yourself, and I think what you said, the younger generations are maybe better and better ready than we are. Learn from your mistakes, trust your gut as much as you have, and don't let yourself be fooled by appearances and always keep things into perspective, because there are way more important things in life than work. Yeah. That's also so hard in the beginning of your career. It is very hard. I fully agree on that, but it's so hard as well. I remember myself in the first years, work was just super important to show myself and to get kind of approval of my capabilities and to get the confidence that I'm worth something in the business world. I think it's a really good combination. Yeah, kind of, what is it, keep mindset in a candy shop just to make sure you enrich yourself in many experiences. Sometimes allow yourself to, yeah, to even motivate yourself in harder projects or maybe put together not in your immediate sweet spot, but make sure that you're balanced with things you super much enjoy. And what I said earlier, reflect regularly. That is sometimes hard because I believe in the Western world, we really are great in working with our head, but we're not so great or we don't get teached. How can you actually listen a bit better to your intuition? And I think that is something in parallel as becoming more mature as a person. Make sure you, yeah, you get to know yourself a bit better in depth so you can make decisions easier and feel more comfortable in what is actually important for you and what works. Yeah, I think all three of us wish that we saw this earlier in our career as well. So yeah, it's hard, like you said, but I think the earlier you do it, the more you get to watch the professional you are meant to be by just learning from your good and bad experiences. And I do think there is value in having bad experiences too. So even when you were saying about the not so good experiences, try to work through it, right? It can be either you continue or, like I did, like I just left, I was like, I don't have to deal with this, right? But there have also been times that I didn't have those guts yet. Like I should just work through it, but I learned different things in different ways. Like how do I deal with someone like this, for example? Yeah, it all, like we were talking about it and maybe it seems easy, but it's not easy at all. And of course, we also have challenges along the way, both of us, which shape us as human beings as we are right now. And also that supported us making decisions that we maybe shouldn't have done if everything was just okay. Right. And also what I find funny is I've been approaching some people who are really with that first job choices. And what you generally see is people really focus on what is the job that I want to perform or to execute. But I think as soon as you start working, you see there's so much more involved to make the job nice and enjoyable or not. Right. So for example, your colleagues. Yeah. The actual workload. Yeah. You have a really high level of hierarchy. And then sometimes it doesn't matter that much what your actual activities are. Yeah. So it's also good for yourself to take time to explore all those elements that are crucial for you to enjoy or not enjoy a working week. Yeah. Yeah, and see which elements really matter to you. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, I have two more questions. I've gone through most of them, but also happy, of course, for you to add anything else. Thinking through something that enables you in your career progression or an example role model. For me, actually, many people come to mind. I've been lucky to work with some very senior partners at the consulting firm. I don't know, they just gave me so much confidence and ability to take on more responsibility and enough safety. So I definitely cherish, yeah, those people that have put the effort in the early career phase for me. Yeah. But also really nice peers. So at the consulting firm, we set up InterVision where it was super valuable with the peers to just fully open up with the struggles we had and to just hear that other people were struggling with the same things. Yeah. That was super valuable. But also friends, my girlfriend. I'm just super happy with people around me that have a bit of a coaching mentality. They not just project their own perspective, but really are able to have a conversation that then helps me and, of course, the other way around as well. Right. That can be super valuable. Yeah. Yeah, definitely people in the first place and there has been a lot along the way, both into corporate world and corporate years, but also now in out-of-office and also, of course, like I said, in private life. And I'm not going to share any names to take the risk that I forget someone. But next to the people, I think, is also the enabler to learn by trial and error. And every misstep taught me something that I could have learned from a book. And if I look at it from a more theoretical lens, then it also includes seeking, and we talked about already, that stretch assignment in and outside of work, building a diverse support network around you with people who are close to you, but also more further away, with maybe doing something really different than you, because you can learn from them from a different angle instead of having that tunnel vision, so to say, and internally stepping out into unfamiliar environments. So, next to the people, which are number one, those also have shaped me and have been some enablers. Nice. It was nice to share as well that when we started as companions or three partners together, all activities that we developed for clients, if they're more in the field of development, leadership development, we will always do them with each other. And first, you mean? Yes. Okay, nice. I will facilitate something that I developed with the two of them, and in the other direction as well. I think that has really been nice in our collaboration, that we are very transparent about concerns or wishes or perspectives we have, and I think that is super nice that we can now experience in collaboration and that means so much. Yeah, I can resonate with that. Also, for the podcast, for this idea, the first person that I interviewed, she was a huge example for me, just like the way that she was leading, and just very respectful of everyone's different working style. She also was open and honest and would be critical, and so she's like the safe environment. I think that you three are for each other to test things out. Yeah. Like sending a logo, sending a, I don't know, like this is what the podcast is about, or hey, can you listen to this thing that I just recorded? How do I sound? And yeah, it's really valuable. Yeah, yeah, and we share a common vision. We share a common purpose, and we have the same passion, so if you provide feedback to each other, which sometimes is needed to grow, it's not personal. It's just to add to that common mission and vision, so by understanding why you are here as a team or as a company, it's easier to also provide that feedback because you want to grow together, so having that safe environment to do that by understanding why you are doing that really makes it easier. I have one other question that I think you guys already answered, so I'm not gonna ask it. So, is there anything else that you would like to add? No, yes, sometimes things can be uncomfortable, and I also have been in a crisis, for example, a few years ago, and I don't wish anyone to feel like that, but I wish that some insight that you get from a crisis, so for everyone as well, and by accepting in the situation where you're in, from that moment you can grow. It took me, I think, at least six months to grow by accepting it, so I was stuck for six months before able to grow anyway. So, in the end, after a while, afterwards, not in that moment of time, not at all, but afterwards, that are the moments that you grow from the most. So, yeah, it can be really hard, it can be challenging, but also know that if you're stuck right now and looking for some other opportunities or don't know how to get there, it will come and accept it and be open to something that comes your way and be the change that you want to be, I would say. Very nice. Yeah, so have faith as well. That is what we'll call it. Yeah, indeed. The word courage was in my mind, and courage, you don't need to dare to make a 180 degrees change immediately or quit your job immediately. I think experimenting with new activities, things that got your interest, I think that it takes some courage already. I think those are crucial steps to transition into a career or I think even in other areas of your life to be more happy in your field that you're in the right place. Yeah, okay, awesome. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for being with me, and first to manage all my shows, so I'm very happy to have a little bit more diversity. Thanks again for having us. Yeah, thank you. Great hour.