Q4-20150909-Larry_Rosenberg-CIMC-dharma_talk-31357

Talk: 2015-09_09 Dharma Talk.json Start_time: 01:18:16 Display_question: Can you speak about doubt in the path and when it is helpful? Keyword_search: doubt, deluded mind, attachment, suffering, practice, motivation, energy, Buddhism, compassion, insight meditation, book, present, future, Buddha, Kalama sutta, choices, constructive, questioning, spiritual, faith, Judeo-Christian, Islamic, Hindu, Cambridge, Zen, Vietnamese, Thich Nhat Hanh, Mongolian Buddhism, internet, mall, teachers, perfect, parents, Tibetan llama, CIMC, path with heart, awareness, intuitive sense, gratitude, observing mind, great seeing, wisdom, mind states Question_content: Questioner: So, I have a question, pertaining to doubt, in particular. So, I've been at this for about, maybe two years, and so along the way, Okay. Yeah. So ever since I sort of discovered meditation, and spirituality, Buddhism, much of it has been on my own, and through friends, coming to places like these. And every once in a while, there are moments where you get to taste the fruits, or some really great benefits of the practice, and they can seem incredibly wonderful, and really reinforce the entire practice. And sort of that just generates a lot of interest, and motivation, and energy to continue, which is great. But inevitably, that doesn't last. And I've learned along the way, how much suffering, that attachment to those states, can cause. However, when those states are not present, and a deluded mind is present, and is sort of sort of seeking… I'm guessing everyone has the goal of attaining wonderful states, there's no doubt about that. But there's also a part of my mind, when I'm not being super mindful, or present… Larry: In which you believe in your doubt? Questioner: Yeah. Where you believe in the doubt. But sometimes it can be hard to tell which doubts are helpful, which ones are not. And sometimes I have doubts, about this specific path of Buddhism, or whichever book I'm reading. Larry: Good that’s healthy. Questioner: Is this book that I'm reading right now, about insight meditation, what I should be reading about, or should I be reading more about compassion, or should I be reading more about... so all these thoughts are going on in my head. Larry: Yes. Questioner: And every once in a while, I'll say, like, I will listen to one of these thoughts. I'll buy a certain book, and I'll read it, and then I'll get back to a place of, like, oh, okay. So here I am again, feeling really good. And then that'll sort of reinforce those doubts, that I've experienced before. But sometimes, so it's just hard sometimes, I don't want to get too deep into this. Larry: You already are in deep. You’re already up to your neck. Questioner: Yeah, I've already lost track of time. It's hard to sort of... Larry: No, you've been very... in your own way, been quite articulate, about it. Questioner: Yes. So it's just hard because sometimes doubts, when you're experiencing them in the present, can give you great suffering, but then the future can...there's a part of me which is… I think you know what I'm getting at. Larry: Well, I don't know if I know, but I'll do my best. Questioner: Yeah. Larry: First of all, there are many things in life, that are doubtful. So it's a health… but if doubt is like a chronic compulsive, there are people who just... everything is world, and they know, in other words, it's a stance towards life, which prevents because some things in life, are really good. And in other words, there are many things that are doubtful, and it's healthy too. I would say, they should be questioned, when you have any doubts. The Buddha in the Kalama sutta. A very, very important teaching. I would not be doing this practice, if I hadn't read...that was one of the first things I read. Where the Buddha said, don't believe me. Don't believe anyone. Because it's ancient, because it comes from a text. He lists a whole bunch of reasons, said, listen to what the wise have said, and then put it to a test, in your own life. And the test in this case would be, is it helping you live? Is it helping you to alleviate suffering? Suffering less, because that's crucial. All humans share that is suffering. But now, regarding doubt, for some people, first of all, you read a lot. Sounds like it? Questioner: Yes. Which I've realized is... Larry: That's a big part of it. Yeah. In other words, because you got so many different things going on, no wonder you're confused. Let's see. Should I have a strawberry shortcake, or should I have chocolate? No. But then again, there's butterscotch pudding, but how about rice pudding? But now it's organic. Oh, it is, but it's with coconut milk. Oh, I'm not I'm nondairy, so I can go to that. I'm a vegan. You drive yourself crazy. And in this culture, there's a proliferation of choices. But let's put it this way. Let's say some of you, sometimes you try a path, or method, or technique, and you really doubt it, live with it awhile. Break_line: I would use the word, when it's constructive, I would use the word questioning. The doubting is useful. In other words, is this how, like, some of the claims, like, don't believe what I've been saying here this evening, because this is my job. Of course, I'm going to say what I said. This is what I do. I'm in the business. So, what am I going to say? Meditation doesn't work, but if you want to come here, it's okay. It's a waste of time. My life is worse than it ever was. I wish I had never left a university, and just I never have a good salary, and health benefits, and pension plan. No. Okay, now I'll leave it at that. So, I'm not to be trusted, is what I'm saying. Listen to and then weigh in. But then sometimes the doubt, or the questioning, is hard to evaluate. Let's say regarding a lot of paths, you're trying other paths, other forms of meditation. Don't worry, I'm not competitive with... Questioner: No, not really. I mean, I guess in the beginning, I was just sort of spiritual, I guess. And then I…. Larry: Whatever that means. Questioner: Whatever that means. Larry: Yes. Questioner: And then I sort of… Larry: Are you very spiritual? Questioner: I don't want to answer that question. Larry: People that's a good thing to say about someone. I just met somebody very spiritual. Oh! The rest of us yoyo brains. Okay, go ahead. Questioner: Yeah. And then, so I was introduced to Buddhism, from a friend, and I was sort of looking at it, from a distance, and I didn't really fully jump in and say, I'm now fully Buddhist. But over time, I was just more drawn to what it had to say. And… Larry: Good. No one's telling you have to become a Buddhist here. Questioner: Yeah Larry: But look, there is faith, in the Buddha’s teaching. But it's not faith that we might know in a Judeo-Christian, or maybe Islamic as well, and maybe Hindu, I'm not sure. There may be others. The faith here is tentative. It's like a provisional hypothesis, in science. That is, you need some faith, to get started. Obviously, you have gotten started. You've tasted some of the fruit, in your own words, okay. And now and then, you have doubt, in the practice you do. Now when…but you've tasted enough to keep going. Look, if somebody is… you've said so much already. If you fill my plate up more, I'll get confused. I'm already confused. Break_line: So, let's say with all these different paths, and in Cambridge, it's one giant mall. Actually, the whole… with the internet, it's a mall of you know…what do you want a Zen? What kind? Vietnamese? Zen with Thich Nhat Hanh no, there's another kind, it's in Vietnam. But they don't say be happy, or do this. But then again, I like Mongolian Buddhism. Fine. There's clicking on that. Here's a Mongolian teacher. There are videos on him. So it's a huge mall. And to begin with, it's good to try of it. But if you find a path with heart, up until now, no path is going to be perfect. There's going to be some things in it, that you don't like. There's no teacher who's perfect. I have some teachers who I love. I owe as much to them as to my blood parents. They weren't perfect. My parents weren't perfect. I'm not perfect. You are never going to be perfect. There's enough faith for you to generate energy, to practice. And then, now and then, you get discouraged. Break_line: But if you found at this point, let's say, this path, I'm not trying to sell you CIMC, but let's say at this point, it's reasonable, then it's a path, with heart for you. As of now, it may change. Then don't go to the mall. Give everything you have to this, and find out what it can do. The day may come where you realize, no, I met this Tibetan llama, or this Japanese Zen master, and I really feel more drawn to that, or I'm much more drawn to doing Raji yoga, and the Hindu. That may come, but right now it seems like there's enough that's going on for you, to be here. You're here tonight, the way you speak. And does doubt come in from time to time for all of us? Discouragement. It's a mind state. So the doubting mind, awareness is never doubting. Here's the beauty of awareness. Break_line: Maybe we'll end this evening with this. The awareness I'm talking about, when it becomes refined, and stable, it doesn't get old, it doesn't get sick. It's not even Buddhist. It's a human quality of being awake, of being clear. And all these different states, come in front of it, which we believe in. And then we're taken on a journey by them, awareness, so that if the doubting mind comes up, the observing mind can see it, and watch it, learn from it, and see it, dissolve. Now, sometimes when you get to know the doubt, it'll turn out that there's real substance to it, that it's time. This is not the path for you. You can feel it. Now, I can't give you a formula, as to know when to trust the doubt, and when not. Because this isn't assembling a vacuum cleaner. There's an artful, intuitive sense, to dharma practice. And the clearer your mind is, the more you'll be able to assess your own situation, and come to your own conclusion. You'll be able to trust your intuition, and be able to see. Break_line: You know, this has been useful for me, for two or three years, and now it no longer is. Fine, gratitude, thank you very much. Move on, or you may wind up doing this, for the rest of your life. I have no idea. But it's all in the… the observing mind or awareness. There's one term for enlightenment, which I like, it's called the great seeing. The great seeing, which means, it's beyond life and death. It's beyond any condition that you want to put up, and tell me about. It's not Indian. It's not American. It’s not…it just sees. And something extraordinary that comes out of the seeing, when it's that steady, and clear, it is wisdom, and actions that flow from it, have a better chance of being, wise and kind. So, stay with those doubts, as mind states that come up. But it sounds to me like there's enough going for this practice, at least right now, for you to keep on it. And see that sometimes you falter, and sometimes you have doubt. So let that be not special, but part of what you practice with. Do my words make any sense? Questioner: Yeah, they do. Thanks. End_time: 01:30:44