Q4-20131009-Larry_Rosenberg-CIMC-dharma_talk-24524

Talk: 2013-10_09 Dharma Talk.json Start_time: 01:07:52 Display_question: I have tinnitus and I wonder how to practice when I feel like the meditation is almost causing greater pain? Keyword_search: physical pain, tinnitus, meditation, coldness, hotness, compassion, Korea, Japan, monks, enlightened, ego, wisdom, body, mind, yoga, Patanjali's yoga Sutra, thought, reeducate, awareness, silence, medical attention, Buddha, unpleasant, aversive type Question_content: Questioner: Thank you for your talk. To your last point about hotness, and coldness, and the human reaction to that, and being aware of it. I have a question about physical pain. Larry: Yes. Questioner: So, meditating I know just from hearing different people talk might bring up different physical pains. Especially back pain is a very common one. Larry: May I interrupt for a moment? Questioner: Yeah. Larry You say from hearing people talk, do you know it for yourself? Questioner: So I do know back pain for myself. But my particular situation is I've had it in the past, I've recently had it again, ringing in my ears. Larry: You see all I'm interested in is you. Questioner: For me, so for me it's ringing in my ears. It's called tinnitus, and some people have it. But for me, it's accentuated during, almost feels like it's accentuated during meditation, because it's quiet. But I felt like there's something about the coldness, and hotness, which is relevant. But what I'm struggling with is, continuing to practice when you feel like the meditation is, almost causing greater pain. It's clearly not, but it feels that way, and how to have compassion towards that, or continue with the practice, when that happens. Larry: In other words, as you go on in this, there are subtleties that teachers learn, and mainly to give it to you, so you can take care of yourself better. For example, there's one style which is a kind of militaristic style. You just sit through the whole pain. I ran into that a lot in Japan and Korea. And I also met monks who. Are somewhat crippled by it. They don't care. In other words, the main thing is to get enlightened, and they're on an express train. There are other approaches which of course, having trained that way, I see the limitations of it because the ego loves that it gets really fattened up by sitting through pain that way. I'm fantastic, I can just sit through all this excruciating pain. So, it's going backwards because wisdom is getting free of all that. Break_line: So now, let's say if you asked me this question, in the course of this practice, I would say, first of all, work to the edge of where it starts to become really horrible. In other words, I'm not saying, for example, you might hear don't move. And in some you take a vow, believe it or not, to not move. In the monasteries, I'm talking about. And people don't move, because they're embarrassed to move. Everyone sitting in a group like here. And if you move, everyone knows it. So, you don't move. And it's just what you said, it's torture. Not only that, you can hurt the body. So, I favor an approach that appreciates the body and respects it. Work to the edge, because typically the mind is so comfort oriented, particularly in our culture, that as soon as there's the slightest discomfort, it gives up, or it gets discouraged. Work a little bit, get some experience about being aware of throb, throb, throb. Break_line: And also, here's what's crucial, and this will help you, with wisdom. The mind. You're right. It's like with weather. The mind can turn discomfort into torment, because it starts to say this throb, throb throb. It starts feeling sorry for itself. And it's not just that it's happening in your lower back, in the lower back, it's happening in YOUR lower back, the most important lower back, in the entire planet. And then there's a feeling of now, in other words, that adds on to. No one's denying the physical discomfort. But then I would shift your posture, or stand, or sometimes just it's enough for today. In other words, allow the body... sometimes bodies have yoga. The real yoga was preparatory for meditation. It wasn't just to get nice buttocks. Break_line: In fact, I never heard of that mentioned in Patanjali's yoga Sutra. Maybe he could have said it, but he didn't seem to. I have nothing against nice buttocks, but what it’s about, is to equip the bod,y so that it's more able to sit still, for long periods of time. So it's comfortable and stable. So, it's a platform from which we can watch difficult emotions, like fear, and so forth. So, I would say most of us work. You would learn intuitively, when to stop altogether, or when to shift your posture, or go to a chair. In other words, because some people feel if they're sitting on a chair, it's inferior. The key thing is how you keep your mind. But we have these images. My boss is sitting cross legged, but he's a statue. Also in ancient times, people sat on the ground, so it was easier for them. We've been brought up on chairs and we can learn. Break_line: So the body may need to reeducate itself, so it can learn to be stable, on the ground. But many people just do it in chairs and do perfectly well. So, you have options. You're not imprisoned by that one thing. But in any case, the mind will be very important. Watching… thought is our companion for our life. Thought is going to accompany us, for the rest of our life. But we've got to get to know thought, and see when it's useful, and when it's harmful. Does that answer your question? It doesn't look like it. Questioner: Well, no, for mine was my particular issue, is not so much back pain but ringing in my ears. Larry: So let's go to that. It's the same. First of all, don't take this to mean, don't get medical help, because sometimes meditation cures everything. That's nonsense. Questioner: Yeah. Larry: It's just silly. Okay. Now, let's say the ringing in your ear starts, and then you're bothered by it, right? Can you look at that? It's the same principle. Only it's much more subtle. Now I'd have to know whether it's… what would you call that disease? Tinnitus? Questioner: Yeah, exactly. Larry: Yeah. If it's that, or when the mind gets very silent. You can hear the sound of silence, but it's joyful. Questioner: No, I know it's different. Yes. Larry: Yeah. This is not joyful for you. Questioner: Well, I've been like that in the past, but now it's yeah. Larry: Okay. So, by all means, get medical attention. Questioner: Right. But let's say while you're sitting, if that buzz goes, and it's unpleasant, then that can be observed. You can see that the mind is making it worse by, (buzzing sound) oh my God. When's it going to stop? The last sitting, it wasn't here. I thought I was done with it, but here it is. The doctor said, if I take these pills, but it's not true. It has side effect. Before you know it, there's a whole scenario, a whole narrative, about what's happening. Whereas if you can see it, it falls away, and there's just a discomfort of what's happening, which is when you sweat, the Buddha's hot when it's summer, in the summer, and cold in the winter, what else are you going to be? So, you're still not satisfied? I want satisfied customers leaving here, or. Questioner: Is that it's easier said than done? But I appreciate… Larry: Are you an aversive type where you're never satisfied? Sorry. I'm just kidding. Not really. Questioner: That's helpful. Thank you. Larry: Okay, try it. See what happens. But make the awareness very gentle, because when you deal with the mind, if you come in heavy handedly, you'll get... you give yourself... can give yourself a headache. Very softly, hear what's extra, in addition to the... I'm not denying the discomfort, there's something extra. That's what you become aware of. And see what happens. Questioner: Okay. Larry: Yeah. End_time: 01:15:45