Q4-19920226-Larry_Rosenberg-UNK-anapanasati_full_awareness_of_breath_series_tape_3-33806 Leandra Tej

Talk: 19920226-Larry_Rosenberg-UNK-anapanasati_full_awareness_of_breath_series_tape_3-33806 Leandra Tejedor.json Start_time: 01:20:01 Display_question: Why do we need enlightenment if sex, drugs, and rock and roll is so wonderful? Keyword_search: freedom, sex, drugs, rock and roll, enlightenment, Buddha, LSD, IMS, CIMC, nirvana, samsara, illusion, United States, karma, consumption, credit cards, mass media, TV, God, Jesus Question_content: Questioner: I have some ironic, metaphor, kind of trivial question here. Since we all love freedom of sex, drugs, and rock and roll. Larry: Do we? I thought that went out a while back. Yeah. Questioner: Since we like this kind of freedom, why do we need this enlightenment which blocks everything else? Larry: I don't know. You know better than I do. Questioner: Most of the people don't know. I need explanation. Larry: Help me understand your question. Why do we need enlightenment if sex, drug, and rock and roll is so wonderful? Is that your question? Questioner: Since we all love freedom of a free lifestyle, and on the other hand, the enlightenment itself has nothing to do with all this thing, which is too…opposite thing. Larry: Okay, I'm sorry. I don't quite see it the way you do. Questioner: Okay. Larry: Enlightenment affects every aspect of our life. It's a way of… but is it free? In other words, what you're calling free, what we call free, is that real freedom? See, the teachings of the Buddha, I would say, have a very different notion, as to what freedom is, than… what you're calling freedom. I think others might call license. Just do whatever you want. And as you look more carefully have you done that kind of… I've lived that way. And at a certain point, it's very, very conditioned, desperate, compulsive. And there's some good times in it, too. No question about it. But I wouldn't call it freedom. Break_line: And looking back, I feel humiliated at how cocky and arrogant I was, thinking I'd come upon… those of us who used LSD. We thought we found a solution to the world's problems. We didn't realize we were just contributing to them more, although some of that was helpful. One way of looking at enlightenment is that it's up here, and that everything else is down here. So that you're saying it has nothing to do with what's going on here. But I would find that my understanding is not that. Unless you, reasonably well, come to terms with what's going on here, you're never going to get to what you're calling up here. It's not possible because you'll keep tripping over yourself. Break_line: Now, my own understanding, of the deepest freedoms, is that they're not locked away in some kind of hermetically sealed container, that there's freedom over here, and then there's this dirty, noisy world down here. That in a deeper practice…let's say after you've begun to taste some very wonderful things, which you could call a taste of enlightenment. The challenge becomes to bring that which you have experienced, into daily life. Because if it's only restricted to, let's say IMS, and CIMC, you're really like a hothouse plant. Let me give you an example. Do you see what I'm getting at? Questioner: Yeah. Larry: So that finally, I hope this doesn't confuse you more than… there's a very to me, a very high teaching is, don't favor either Nirvana, or Samsara. In other words, either one, they're both okay. They're both fine. If you're in Nirvana. Wonderful. If you're in Samsara, the world of illusion, wonderful. Now, it's a point that's not so easy to convey in the time that we have, and so forth. But anything that you lock into, including your notion of what you think enlightenment is, is not enlightenment anymore. Don't you still have to live in the world, you do. Now there's a depth that goes beyond, what we think of as being a person. So that the real freedom turns out to be, it has to be inside. So that you could even… you could look free from the outside, and be enslaved. In other words, as so many people are. They're just doing whatever they please. Aren’t we paying for that now, in the United States? Break_line: Let's say the credit card thing and every you know, that's just symbolic of much more. We've been living as if there's no tomorrow, for quite a few years. As if there are no limits, in terms of material resources, in terms of anything. It's an illusion. And so now the karma is coming back, whatever it is. I don't know what it will lead to. But we've taken that to mean freedom. That is, for our standard of living to go up and up and up, insatiable, consumption. That's what makes us feel good. From a spiritual point of view, that isn't all that impressive, because at a certain point, probably all of us are here…many of us at least, have had privileged lives. We've had schooling, and adequate money, and adequate food, and a good place to live. And it's not that that's not important, but it certainly isn't enough. Well, why would we be here? What's behind your question? I don't feel I'm handling it very well. Questioner: You explained pretty well. Larry: I did. Questioner: Yes. Since my main question is since everybody loves the freedom to roam or do, or whatever we please… Larry: I see. Questioner: Why do we have to look for another extra freedom which enlightenment itself blocks everything else. It has nothing to do… Larry: Where did you get this understanding from? Why would people…inn other words, why would some of the greatest human beings who have lived, starting with the Buddha, want to pursue this, if it's what you're saying. We're all a bunch of complete fools. Here we have this wonderful sex, drug, and rock and roll, or freedom, and instead, what do we do? We sit with our fold, our legs and our knees hurt, and we go off to retreats for three months. It could be. Maybe we're just one 2500 years of delusion, and derangement. It's possible. Really, it is. Why not. Stranger things have happened. I think there are two different uses of the word freedom. What you're calling freedom. Break_line: First of all, if that were so fulfilling, what you think is so wonderful, if that was so fulfilling, there would be no interest in these things. But the truth is, here we are. We're willing, it seems, to put up with all kinds of inconvenience. So maybe it isn't quite as wonderful as you're making it out to be. Does that make any sense? Questioner: But my thinking comes from the whole mass media. What they are teaching. Larry: That's true. Questioner: You don’t have to look further; this is the freedom. We enjoy it. But if you're into something else, why don't they teach better things? Larry: Okay, but look, here the real…okay. I'm not God. In the real freedom, you could do those things, that you like. The real freedom is not necessarily linked. If you're a monk, or a nun, you have to stop doing certain things. But there are other paths. The path that we're working on is not a path, that where you have to, let's say, not have a partner, eat only one meal a day, not carry money, and so forth. That's one legitimate way of getting free. But there are other ways where you actually, and that's what we've been saying all along, you're using your ordinary life just as it is. And if yours includes some of those things, by all means. But now we use it to learn about ourselves. Just what is our relationship to sex, drugs, and rock and roll. So, it's certainly possible that somebody is doing all these things and is completely free inside. But most people are not. And at a certain point it runs out. Okay, I think I'm just repeating myself. End_time: 01:27:38