Q3-20110724-Larry_Rosenberg-IMSRC-the_way_of_the_breath_anapanasati_as_a_complete_meditation_practic

Talk: 2011-07_24 The Way Of The Breath - Anapanasati as a complete meditation practice. #7.json Start_time: 00:58:32 Display_question: Can you explain what you mean by getting to the other shore? Keyword_search: boat, metaphor, samsara, illusion, striving, meditation, nirvana, suffering, Zen, ice cube, water, enlightenment, thoughts, awakening, wakefulness, breath, attention, Buddha, koan, frog, wisdom, walking meditation, dental hygienist, toothbrush, Ethopia Question_content: Questioner: You talked about the boat metaphor? Larry: Which metaphor? Questioner: Matt talked about the boat metaphor. Larry: Matthew used the boat metaphor? Questioner: Yes. Larry: You have to explain and then I'll see what I can do. Questioner: Well, I'm just… you get to another shore? Larry: Yeah Questioner: It's just a metaphor that you keep going? Larry: Right. Questioner: You're in the boat. You just keep going. Is there something other than the shore that we're going towards? Larry: One way of talking about is, we're in samsara, the world of illusion, of constant striving, trying to get, get, get. And by meditation you get to, Nirvana. And some ways of teaching is, they're different places. To me that is more accessible to the way we've been brought up. Our mind works that way. If I practice hard enough, I'll get out of samsara, and into Nirvana. But to me a more, well, I'll just give you what I feel, and I didn't make this up, samsara and Nirvana are the same place. In other words, if you relate to this moment in a certain way, you're in the world of illusion, and you're suffering in that very place as you see through it, you're in Nirvana. There's a Zen image of an ice cube becoming water. It's the same water. It's just when it's frozen solidified, it's a cube. When it melts, it's water. So, these are all… you use the word… did you use the word metaphor? Every metaphor is really rather limited, but it's what Matthew was saying. So does that help a little bit? Questioner: Yeah, I get it. There's such a large amount of talk about enlightenment. Larry: Well, why are you here and what do you want to get? Questioner: Why am I here? Larry: Yeah Questioner: It's great to get into what we've been doing. Larry: But I know its great all we’ve been doing but what, look which mind got you to fill out a check, pay for it, get the ticket, and get… and move your but… make arrangements, check your schedule, talk to you...that got you to come here. There's something that got you to come here. What mind is that? Questioner: Well, I like the state of being of, coming down to where I'm not thinking, where my thoughts are just bubbles in the air. And then I mean exactly what we've been talking about all week. Larry: So, you like that? Questioner: Yeah, I like that. Larry: As you get better and better and better at that, you might be called Nirvana. Is that all… Questioner: Yeah. Larry: So, in other words, you came here to get enlightened. But it's a good question. People will say, I want to get enlightened. You say, well, what is enlightenment? I don't know. Sort of like… so you desperately want something, you don't even know what it is. How can that lead to anything but suffering? Questioner: I was on a retreat. One of the instructors was like, boy, if I had nickel for every time, I did this, I'd be enlightened. It makes you think there is a lot of misinformation. Or something out there. Larry: There are different models. All I can speak for is the one we're teaching. And I prefer the term awakening, to enlightenment. Awakening is we can really grasp, because to some degree, every time you're mindful, in a moment, you're to some degree awake, and then you fall asleep. So, the quality of wakefulness, and the breath can help that, help establish attention, and then also support it. A Buddha is somebody's fully awake? I prefer that term. Now, if somebody says… that implies the more retreats you get, the more likely you would be enlightened by now. I haven't seen that, just personally. Maybe it's my problem, because waking up… as one of my teachers put it, frogs can sit forever, and they're not particularly free. Break_line: So, there's a famous koan. Somebody is sitting. This is a Zen koan sitting in beautiful posture. And the teacher comes and says, why are you sitting so much? And this person is sitting… remember, don't misuse this. And now I don't have to sit. I'm just everything is practice. This person was fixated on one posture. And so he said, why are you sitting? And he said, oh, to get enlightened. Let's use your term. And so, then the teacher didn't say anything, took two stones and started rubbing them together. Rubbing them together. He said, why are you doing that? The student asked the teacher, he says, I don't want to make this into a mirror. And he said, you'll never turn that into a mirror. No matter how much you rub those two stones together. He says, and you'll never turn that into enlightenment. Now, no matter how long you sit. Break_line: Again, it's not that sitting is, irrelevant, it's just that what do you do? For example, people get often on longer retreats, people say, and I did walking meditation until four in the morning. Good. It's good exercise, but let's get a cardiologist, see if your condition has improved. Have you learned anything? Are you wiser? Are you freer? This is a wisdom path. So, could that potentially help a lot by doing more retreats? Of course it could, but nothing's a guarantee. It's what you do. Break_line: I learned this from a dental hygienist. I always ask dentists, and hygienists, do you prefer electric toothbrush, or manual? I get different answers. Oh, of course, electric gets with all the… manual that's cavemen use manual, so they're different. Some will say manual is much better than electric. And then I got one, at the person who's my dentist now, a woman from Ethiopia, and I asked her this, and I've got the best answer. It went way beyond my teeth, she said. She paused, she reflected, and said, I don't think it has to do with whether you use an electric toothbrush or a manual. It has to do with the person brushing. Get it? Okay. End_time: 01:06:14