interview with Mary Clark Repentance and forgiveness in family life chapter 20

This is a conversation between Jenny Sparks and her friend Mary Clark about the importance of empathy when seeking and giving forgiveness in family life. They discuss how empathy helps to understand the perspective and pain of others, leading to humility and a better position to seek forgiveness. They also talk about the difficulty of forgiving someone close to us and the need to forgive even when the offender doesn't seek forgiveness. Mary shares a personal example of unintentionally hurting someone and not realizing it until years later. They conclude by discussing the idea of repeatedly forgiving a family member for the same offense and the importance of ongoing forgiveness. Okay, testing, see if this is going to work. Testing, testing, one, two, three, can you hear me? Hi, this is Jenny Sparks, and this is going to be a series of eight podcasts where we delve into different chapters from the book, Successful Marriages and Families, Proclamation Principles on Research Perspectives, by Alan J. Hawkins, David C. Dallaheit, I hope I got that right, and Thomas W. Drape. And the first chapter we're going to be discussing today is Repentance and Forgiveness in Family Life. And I've asked a very good friend of mine, Mary Clark, to be the first person I interview, and to go over this with me today, and I'm grateful you're here today, Mary. Hi, I'm happy to do this, excited to chat with my friends. And we've been friends for, I don't want to say. I want to say it's 15 years or so, yeah. Yeah, and so I'm really grateful that you were kind enough to do this with me today. Oh, this is easy. Do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself before we get started? I mean, that kind of puts you on the spot. Oh, I'm good with that. No, I'll just tell you a little bit. I am a mother of three. I've been married to my husband, Bill, for I think we're 27 years, and have had a lot of life experience and life practice. And so, you know, this is a subject that is important to me and will be interesting to talk about. And some of these questions, we talked about this, some of these questions are deep questions. When we first talked about the possibility of repentance and forgiveness and family life, just the generalness of it seemed a little bit lighter than some of these questions might end up being, right? Yeah, so true, and I think it's going to be really interesting to discuss this. Okay, the first question I have for you is, why do you think it's important to have empathy when you are seeking forgiveness? Or do you even feel that that's important? Yes, I definitely do. I love these questions because I feel like they really get to the heart and to the root of what forgiveness is when you're successful at it. And I think I love that question because having empathy, to me, is when you try to put yourself in the position of someone else and understand their point of view. And I think that's so valuable when I'm seeking to ask forgiveness from someone else, to be aware of their experience and either what pain they may be experiencing as a result of the choice that I made or just how they might feel, just trying to understand that and put myself in that position and know that I've been in that role before and so to be understanding and accepting of where they're at when I am seeking that from them. So I think just having that empathy, and I think empathy is also, it can put you in a place of humility, which I think is like that's the most important place to be if you're seeking forgiveness is to be humble. That place is like where the godly sorrow is, is a place of humility and being aware that your choice hurt someone else. And that, to me, puts you in the best position to seek forgiveness from other people. That's so true, and when you're talking about that, sometimes we can do something that may not be offensive to us, and we can wonder why did that person get hurt feelings? I wouldn't get hurt feelings with this action, but if we are empathetic and we can put ourselves in their shoes, we can kind of understand why they are hurt. Yes, absolutely. I think that really is, that's key. Do you think it's equally important to have empathy if you are forgiving somebody? Yeah, I definitely think so. I definitely think so. I think, again, it comes back to that same concept of understanding how someone feels when I've been on the opposite side where I've hurt someone, and I think it's so easy when I'm hurt to just focus completely on my hurt and my pain, but if I am able to look at someone else and recognize that I've been in that same place, I've been in the same position, I have hurt other people, I understand and can be more open to seeking and giving that forgiveness to them, and finding that healing in my relationship with them if I'm accepting and understanding that I make those same kind of mistakes myself. In the book, in this chapter, it talks a lot about being able to put yourself in somebody's shoes and understanding why they did what they did and, like, what choices they made, why they made some of those choices, and then making it, therefore, easier for you to forgive by understanding why somebody made the choices they did. That's so true. Yeah, I really like that approach. Or what, like, life experience they might have had to make them cross, to cause them to make that decision. Yeah, thinking of that helps you to understand their behavior. Yeah, so true. Do you think it's more difficult to forgive somebody that's close to you? I think, yes. I definitely think, as I thought about that, I think we're more prone to be hurt more deeply by the people who are the closest to us because I think we love them, they love us, and I think there's sometimes this expectation that, you know, we wouldn't be as hurtful to each other, but it's almost by that aspect alone that we're more hurtful to each other because we are loved and love those people that it's easier to receive, to feel pain as a result of their choice. So, yeah, I definitely think when you're closer to someone, it's a harder process to forgive. Yeah, true. And I also, just when you were talking, I thought, for me personally, I find it's more difficult to forgive when somebody else hurts somebody else that I'm close to. Yeah. Like, I tend to feel a lot more anger when somebody I love is hurt, and I find that process of forgiveness a little bit more difficult. That's so true. Not that I need to forgive. It's not my hurt, but I feel like for your own sense of well-being, sometimes we need to. I think sometimes it is our hurt, though. It's our pain at seeing the pain of our loved one, the pain that our loved one has been caused by someone else's bad choice is our pain, too. So I do think, yeah, in a way, we have to forgive in those circumstances as well. Yeah, that's a good point. Okay. Has there been a time in your life in which you have had to forgive a family member who did not really feel that they needed your forgiveness or that they wronged you in any way? Yes, definitely, definitely. I think that's such an interesting thought to think of. I don't know that I always think of, you know, did they seek forgiveness or did they not? Because I think I have gotten to a point in my life where I'm like, you know, does it really matter whether or not they come to me to seek forgiveness? I recognize that I'm hurt and that I need to somehow sort through those feelings and heal from that. And so, yeah, that definitely has happened to me often in my life that I've recognized, okay, they don't realize they offended or they, you know, aren't interested in asking for my forgiveness. Or maybe don't care. Yeah, don't care. Or maybe they think that you're too sensitive or you're taking something too serious. Or like you said, they don't know they caused the offense because I've been on that end also where I've not realized I caused offense to someone. So, again, it comes back to empathy, you know, understanding that it happens and maybe they need to know that there was a hurt caused. That's so true. For example, if you're having a conversation with somebody and they've experienced a certain trauma in their life and you have no idea that they've experienced that trauma and you're talking about it, you might say something offensive to them that you wouldn't find possibly offensive because you haven't basically lived through that sort of trauma that they have lived through. Well, I mean, just a quick story. There was someone who, when I was a young married mother, I was in a grocery store and I didn't see them and didn't wave hi to them. It was someone from my ward. And I ended up finding later that they were really hurt. And I just didn't see them. I literally did not see them. I was completely consumed with my kids. And later I felt so sad that that happened, that I missed seeing that or knowing that they were hurt by me. Were you able to go and have a conversation with them and apologize to them? It was years later. It was years later that you realized it. It was years later that I found out, yeah. I actually found out from a mutual friend. Oh. So, yeah. So it wasn't even the person specifically. It was somebody that you just found out that this happened. It was someone I found out later. You didn't have a chance to. So-and-so was really hurt that you didn't say hi to them. Yeah. That's too bad. Yeah, it happens. I'm sure. I always thought that too when I taught gospel doctrine for a whole year in a ward many years ago. I used to say, preface everything. Like I may say something offensive and I really-please let me know because I don't want to continue to have you have those hurt feelings. But I also need to know if I say something offensive for maybe future references. So true. But we don't mean to offend most of the time. We don't. Our experience is just ours. Yeah. It's different than everyone else's. But it is, I think, especially for us maybe as women. I don't know for sure, but maybe as women and maybe we're worried about offending others, especially in this day and age. And we always have to be careful of our words and not offend. But I don't want to offend people. Yeah. That's so true. And I want to be kind. But there are going to be times in our life when we're not perfect. We're going to offend somebody. We're going to do something to hurt somebody. And hopefully we can figure out how to mitigate it. Yeah. Those hurt feelings are the best. So important. Have you had to forgive a family member repeatedly for the same offense? And if you did, how do you feel about that? Is that something that continues to happen, and do you just repeatedly forgive them because you love them? Or are they big offenses, small offenses, that sort of thing? I guess there's a whole range of things. Definitely. That's a big question. I know. Sorry. Oh, no, no. That's a good one. That's a good question. I really just think that – I don't know why. It keeps coming back to empathy for me because if I understand that I am in a fallen state and that I'm weak, I know everybody else around me is too. And I would say, you know, it's interesting, all these questions are kind of connected. I mean, I'm a mother, and so because my interactions are most often and most frequent with my children and I'm a weak person that makes mistakes, most often those mistakes are with my children or my husband. And so, yeah, I mean, I think having that understanding that that happens and that I'm striving to be better and I'm striving to change and I'm striving to heal, that same person is as well. And I think it doesn't make it easier, though. You know, when someone's choice that they're making that's hurting you is a really hard and really painful choice. I think that, you know, on a big spectrum, if it's a really, really difficult, you know, thing to heal from because it's an abuse or something like that, that that, you know, is a whole different – that's a whole different topic almost. But all the other things in between, I think we're all trying to improve and become better. And so I think just recognizing that I have to see them through the eyes of the Savior and through the eyes of understanding that I can relate, that I am a weak person that makes mistakes and, you know, is constantly having to seek forgiveness, even for behaviors that I want to change, that I want to make different. But I think there are other things and other aspects to that, to developing safety net or caution, you know, boundaries, really, around how you handle things like that when it comes to something that's really hurting you and it keeps happening. Right. There's other things that can be done. And there's also, like you were saying, different levels of, like, if it's your sister or brother versus your parent or child or husband or wife, you know, spouse, levels of hurt. You know, is it – did they continually forget to do something that was important to you, or did they actually do a serious offense that's repetitive? And I think those are just, like you said, some different safety nets, some different boundaries that are important. That we have to have, yeah, concerning that. I think it's so important when you're dealing with repeated things like that, though, to see where your part is, to see what you can do about that when you're being hurt because you can't, and you're not going to be able to control the behavior of the people around you. But I think seeing and focusing on your part and what you can do to heal from that hurt, I think, is where the focus should be and where you have the most power to affect change in your life with how you're doing and your own peace and finding your own peace when it's happening repeatedly. Well, and I think, too, I think forgiveness is helpful to the person that's seeking forgiveness. But I think me, personally, I believe that forgiveness is really for ourselves and for our peace of mind when we forgive something. But you also don't want to be in a position where you're consistently forgiving somebody for the same offense over and over, and that's where I think good boundaries come into play. And then that's just a whole other subject. Yeah, I know. I could really go far into that. We could have a long conversation just on that and the boundaries and things like that, too. That's a podcast for another day. Well, it was very interesting. The book, it talks about genuine forgiveness is a process, not a product. And I thought that was a really good quote. That's really good. That's so true. And it's something to really think. And then it says in the book, Worthington's 2001 Cognitive Behavioral Five-Step Process of Forgiveness is, First, recall the hurt. And, yeah, that was kind of strong to me because you kind of want to forget the hurt. And it talks about step one, recall the hurt. We have to understand why we hurt, why they hurt us. It's more than just trying to remember it. And then, two, empathize. And then, three, offer the altruistic gift of forgiveness. So what does altruistic gift of forgiveness mean to you? Oh, I don't know. Altruistic is a big word. It is. I think, you know, I don't know. I think my brain initially when you said that was like, okay, does that mean that you tell them I forgive you? But I kind of, I don't know, I more would say that that for me means that I offer myself the gift of healing. Yeah. And understanding that me forgiving and letting go of those hurt feelings that, you know, you embrace and allow to happen is really the best thing for me in the long run. And that's a gift to myself, really. And I guess in a way it is a gift to that person, too. So it's a gift to both of us, even if that person doesn't know. Or accept it or want it. Yeah. Well, I think when it comes back to repeated offense, I think the interesting part in that step process is that sometimes healing that pain comes by itself. It can be when nothing has happened that a person has repeated an offense. It can just be a pain that comes to you later in life that you remember the offense. Yeah. So that is an interesting aspect of that as well. I like that process. And then four, it says commit publicly to forgive. So that doesn't mean we have to shout it from the rooftops, and we have to post on Facebook that we publicly forgive. But it means that you tell somebody. So say you tell your sister that you forgive your mom, or I tell you that I forgive my child in this. Or you write them a letter. Those were some other examples from the book, that you write them a letter, that you forgive them, or you send them an e-mail. So then they say that you're, according to the book, you're more likely to keep your forgiveness if you publicly commit to this forgiveness. That's really good. I really like that. I mean, when you think about it, they also say in different aspects, studies have shown that when you're dieting or exercising, you commit to something and you're accountable to somebody, you're more likely to keep that commitment. And then five is hold on to forgiveness. Because I think often we say, we forgive. I forgive you. I'm sorry. Okay, let's move on. But some things are bigger and more difficult in the process of holding on to that forgiveness. So do you think it's possible, having said that, to forgive someone, and then later have that hurt come back up, and have to maybe start through the process all over again of forgiveness? Yeah, definitely. I think that's exactly what I was talking about, is that that pain, you may have felt like you resolved it, and then that pain follows up later, and surprises you in a moment that you're not expecting, and you haven't been offended or traumatized by someone's bad choice. And so I think, yeah, definitely. I think that process, it's like, okay, I practiced this. I already have done this. I just need to redo what I did before. I love President Faust. There's a quote that I remember that he gave in one of his talks where he said to just always leave a space for forgiveness. And he kind of talked about when you're seeking to forgive someone and then welcome that in when it comes. And I think I love the way that this talks about seeking and finding that again and holding on to it. I love that. That's the same kind of concept. Yeah, and I think, too, that, like we were talking about earlier, the larger offenses are those type of offenses that come back later, and you're like, oh, I remember. Something may trigger a memory or something, and you can think, oh, man, I thought I worked through this. Surprise. And something else can trigger a part of that hurt. And so then you start that process over again of trying to work through that hurt and keep the forgiveness that you've given that person. You know, I know this might be a weird tangent, but I think that sometimes we are working on forgiving ourselves, too. True. And so when you said that about having that pain come up, sometimes the pain that I'm experiencing is remembering a behavior that I did that hurt someone else. True. And that pain comes up, and I'm like, oh, I need to forgive myself for being imperfect. And so, you know, there's that aspect of that as well. Well, and, too, we can – a lot of times, too, I'm terrible at saying, oh, why did I just say that, why did I just do that later, like when I'm thinking about something. And sometimes I found myself overly apologizing to people. And I found also when I'd go to that person a lot of times and say, hey, I made this comment when we were talking, and I'm really sorry, I didn't mean to come off like that. And half the time, or more than half the time, that person's like, I don't even remember that. That's so true. That happens all the time. I think we hold ourselves to it. I think it happens more than we know. Yeah, I think we hold ourselves to a higher standard. So what I did is I just – unless that person came to me and said, hey, did you mean it like this, which I hope would happen, or unless I think later and something really sticks out to me, I don't go back and apologize because I'm just – I feel like sometimes I'm just overthinking. Yeah, or re-stewing something up. Yeah, and over-worrying about that offense. Like we talked earlier about when we're teaching a class in church or whatever, I think sometimes I can especially over-worry about, did I say that offensive? Or maybe I'm talking to somebody that has experienced something in life that I haven't experienced, such as divorce or a trauma. And I think, ooh, did I say something offensive? You know, and, yeah, I think in general, as women, we tend to do that more. But I know that I tend to worry about that a little bit more than – maybe not normal. I know my son – one of my sons does this too. He over-worries about what he may have offended people and hurt people's feelings. I don't know that I worry about that as much as you. Oh, do you? So maybe it's not women. It's just me. I don't know. Maybe. I worry more because I've actually had people tell me, you know, even when I was teaching a lesson one time, I had somebody that was like, I don't like harping on this. In fact, I think it was this very subject, forgiveness. And I was like, oh, okay, am I harping? But, yeah, I definitely think, you know, you're thoughtful in that way. Well, and I think, too, this is a tough subject. It is. People think forgiveness means that you've forgotten or if they've done something really – like in the book it talks about abuse and that sort of thing. And that just because you forgive doesn't mean you forget the abuse or doesn't mean you shouldn't put up healthy boundaries for that person that has committed the abuse. It also was interesting. It talked about children possibly having hard feelings for parents in those instances who didn't commit the abuse, but they were abused by somebody else, and they feel angry towards their parents for, A, not knowing about it, not stopping it, and that sort of thing like that. I think that's a natural reaction of a child, and that's a lot to work through. Yeah. I think for someone, and especially once they're an adult, trying to figure out how to sort through that. And, again, it goes through – this could be a whole other podcast about huge acts of forgiveness and what we can do. But, yeah, I think this subject is very sensitive because some people feel like, especially if they have had something done to them that was extremely hurtful, sometimes it's very difficult to let that go. And we say, you need to commit this act of forgiveness. It doesn't mean you need to commit this act of forgiveness right now. Forgiveness – and that's where it comes back to that saying, forgiveness is a process, not a product. So sometimes forgiveness can take years to forgive somebody, and you've got to put the work into that. And then the frustrating part is maybe it took you years to forgive somebody, and you feel like you're doing fine, and then, boom, something triggers that hurt, and you have to kind of work through that process again. So true. Especially when it comes from family members and things like that, people you love and those hurtful processes. But how important do you think it is for us, though, to continue to work on that process? I think – well, I have felt for a long time that it's probably one of the single most important things that I have learned or skills that I've learned in my life. I really do. I feel like learning how to forgive and to seek forgiveness are almost the most important skills that we can have. I mean, it's really what the Atonement – it's at the core of what the Atonement is about in some ways. And I feel like because we're in a fallen state as human beings in this world, living in this life as part of this plan that Heavenly Father has for us, we are going to make mistakes, and the people around us are going to make mistakes. And so learning how to apply the concept of forgiveness, of others, of ourselves, and seeking forgiveness and repenting are just really the most, to me, skills that I have to have to have good relationships, to have a happy, peaceful life. And to be able to use those tools when they're useful for life happiness and for life really to do what Heavenly Father has sent us here to do. Right. And hopefully, too, if we're truly seeking forgiveness, we're not going to continually make those same mistakes, or we won't make the same mistake maybe that we made when we were 20 or 30 or 40 as we do when we're 50 or 60. Well, that's the growth. That's why it's such a tool for helping in the relationships, because it can make it possible for you to change and become a different person, a new person, to have a changed heart. And I've seen it happen in the lives of the people that I love. I have seen some really hard things where people have made huge changes in their life and have become different people. I have become a different person as a result of applying all of those same concepts that I've learned. I have a lot more to learn. Right. A lot more to learn, too. I feel the same for myself. I mean, I see how myself at 30 or 40, so much I feel different than it is now at almost 50. And I hope I won't make the same mistakes, but we can, right? I was thinking about this the other day. It's similar in the gospel we talk about we learn something, but you don't just learn something and then, oh, I got this mastered. It doesn't have to be even gospel-related. It can be anything. I've learned this one thing, boom, I'm an expert. It's piece by piece. You don't just decide I'm going to play a sport and go out and play it. You learn each little skill of that sport, and then you go out and put all those skills together and play the sport in the best way you can. And I think the same thing for forgiveness. As we learn to forgive, maybe even for the smaller things, or maybe we've had to really work at one thing in particular, we have a better knowledge and we're better able to use some of those tools we used to forgive people in the first place. So true. Yeah, I think life is just ever-changing. I think I like the sport analogy because you could be out playing a sport, and it's just a bad day, and you're sick. Maybe you caught a cold. And so all those skills and tools that you've developed up to that point, some of that goes out the window because your balance is off because you've got a sinus infection. You know what I mean? Yeah, true. I just think sometimes things change in life, and the way that we perceive things can change. I think things crop up that are new and different and new challenges that we have to face, where maybe even some of the weaknesses that we've been able to resolve and work through come shining through again. Yeah. It's like, oh, I thought that was resolved. I thought that issue was gone. And maybe it isn't even just the same issue. Maybe it's something new. Maybe it's a new weakness that's cropped up as a result of some other aspects of things going on in our life. It's just a constant process. You made me think of, like, injuries just because I've had so many. You have. It's like, you know, you can rehab that injury for a long time, and it'd be pretty good. And maybe one thing I found is, you know, if, like, say, my left ankle was injured, so then you put a little bit more weight on your right. I injured my right leg. And then you have to work on that and hope that the left leg doesn't reoccur because you're putting more emphasis on that left leg. It's so true. It's true. I think that could be, you know, similar as forgiveness and seeking forgiveness. Or maybe, you know, we've talked about the possibility of offending people or doing other things that might hurt somebody. But whereas we work on this one thing, we have this one thing down really good. It's strong. Yeah, that's strong. And then we've got to work on those other aspects as well. Other pieces. Yeah. It's an easier said than done. Isn't it? I mean, this is the truth. Both sides. In practice, yeah. Not just asking for forgiveness, but, like, forgiving people. Yes. Both things are extremely difficult, I think, too. You have to realize you've forgiven somebody. And it takes a lot of courage to go to somebody and say, look, I'm seeking your forgiveness for this and this. And then you have to wait and see if they're willing to forgive you, too. And maybe they're not really ready to forgive you that moment. I know I'm impatient, so sometimes that can be really hard because you put your – I feel you're very vulnerable. You're so vulnerable in that moment. You're opening yourself up to being hurt, too, in that moment that you're vulnerable. And I think that's the gift, though, and that's when they're talking about altruistic gift when you, one, you put yourself in a vulnerability, both people. Both people. That's so true. Because it's really hard to then also tell somebody you've been hurt, too. Right. Have you ever felt like that? Yeah. Oh, definitely. That's very vulnerable. And it's like you're not – you hurt me. You're not safe. Why would I tell you that you hurt me? Right. You know, why would I open myself up to that hurt again? So, yeah, definitely. I think, though, when it comes to forgiveness for me, I most often – and seeking forgiveness – I most often have to apply that in my relationship with my children as a mother. And I think that is a very vulnerable circumstance to be with as a mother, to do something or say something that you're like, okay, I crossed a line with my kid, with my child, and I now need to tell them, first of all, I was wrong, which is hard to have to say to your kids because you want to always be right. Right? You want them to feel like that you know and that you are, you know, all-knowing. So to be vulnerable to your children and say, I'm sorry, I was wrong, is a really hard thing to do. And I think that is where I most often have to apply it. So that's a practice that I'm still working on. But I think that's a good thing, though, because if we – even though it's difficult and vulnerable, then we set the example for our children. Yes. Because I know you tend to think of your parents as perfect to a certain extent, and then you get to a certain age and you realize they're not perfect, but still it's like, well, you must know everything. They need to know that you're not perfect. And they need to see it modeled how to forgive and how to ask forgiveness because otherwise they would think they didn't need to, you know, do that. Right. They would know how if we didn't show them. If we didn't show them how to do it. And then if we didn't show them how to do it and that we could do it. That we could do it. And that we're willing to do it, too. Yeah, again, I just think such an important topic for everyone, and I think anybody in a family relationship, which is pretty much all of us, needs those tools. We need them. It reminds me of when my son was on his mission and he asked me, Mom, have you ever been through a trial? And I was like, what? Of course I've been through trials. Many, many trials. You've lived with me for this many years. How did you not see that? But I think we as parents, we try to be strong and not show our children our vulnerabilities and our weaknesses. So I think that, too, is important for me to go through and say, yes, I have been through these hardships. And so I've made a point to try to be a little bit more vulnerable and letting other children and other people in to see that, yeah, I am not perfect. And maybe this facade that I put on that says I'm strong, I'm also vulnerable. I'm a normal person. I'm a private person. So I think that's also another thing I don't like. A lot of people knowing my business, so to speak. And being vulnerable doesn't mean you need to let them know. But it's also good for our kids, I think, to see that we are normal people that have trials, that need to seek forgiveness. True. And then they can model and they can say, hey, this is how you say you're sorry. It is a process. Yeah, I think sometimes you're protective, though. Part of it may be that protecting them from the heaviness of the burden, too. True. Wanting them not to have to face that. But I love what you said, that it's good for them to see that vulnerability and to understand that you go through challenges and trials, too, just like they are and they will, so that they know that that's okay. Yeah, I think that's so important to show to them, let them know. Well, and I was just thinking, too, you know, a comment. I was talking to my daughter about this and about marriage. And just because you're married for a long time doesn't mean you're done working on your marriage. And it's the same thing, just because I think some young people who have not been married or just newly married, they think, boop, I'm married, it's okay now. I don't have to date anymore. I found the person. So it's just going to be good. And I think it's, you know, there's work to be done. There's work to be done. The work you just started. Yeah. But, again, that could be a whole other topic. Yeah, it's a whole other topic. It is. But I think it comes back to, again, the importance of the tools of having that in those closest relationships because that's where the rubber meets the road and where most of those mistakes are going to be made are in that marital and family relationship. So this is just such an important topic, I think, for families and for anyone who wants to have a better relationship with the people they love. Yeah. So I was just thinking and wondering, do you think it's important, I was just thinking, to have patience when you're asking for forgiveness or even patience if you're trying to forgive somebody? Yes. And it comes back to empathy again. It comes back to recognizing that healing is a process for all of us and that it looks different for each person. I think it's easy to get caught up in this. Everyone should think and feel like me, but that just isn't the case. And the older I get and the more experiences I have, the more I realize I can't have expectations on people. I can't expect them to just do that, to just automatically forgive like I expect them to. And, too, I was thinking sometimes I'm impatient, and I feel like, for me, when you get to that vulnerable place and you finally made the act of saying I'm sorry and what you're sorry for, I want that forgiveness like instantly. And it's really hard to realize that maybe some things aren't going to get that forgiveness instantly. Part of that, too, is just wanting that relationship to go back to normal. Because it's strained a lot of times. When there's not healing in the relationship, I think part of having that patience is that, waiting for them to heal or for you to heal to be at a good place in the relationship again. Because I've even noticed that sometimes with my kids, where there have been things that I've said or things that I've done that have bothered them later. And I say something similar, and it upsets them because it reminds them of a time that I got after them for some other thing. And I think that's that patience of being patient with understanding that they're still trying to work through the frustration they felt at me bringing up the subject or talking about this thing. And going through that again, they're framing it within that framework. So, yeah, I love that idea of having patience and the importance of recognizing it's a process for them, it's a process for me, and giving that space for that to happen. Yeah, and I was thinking of an instance. Me growing up, I loved sports, and my dad would guide, you know, I'd say I'd go play soccer, and afterwards my dad would go over the things I did wrong and maybe what I could do next time. And I loved it. And he would spend time playing catch with me, and he'd say, no, no, no, throw your ball. And he'd direct me on how to throw the ball properly, and I loved it. So when I started to try to do that with my children, they didn't love that. Their personality was they didn't take to that, and they weren't happy with me when I was trying to, like, show them how to throw a ball and say, no, move your arm like this. And it just kind of showed me that we all come at different things with different perspectives. And so a lot of people would think, oh, why would you have to ask forgiveness? Because, you know, from my point of view, that was a loving thing that my father did for me, and it was a bonding moment. And I felt that that was a bonding moment for my child and I when we were playing. But they didn't think that coming from their perspective. So I did. I found myself apologizing. Look, I'm sorry. This is how I liked being taught as a kid. Let's find what you like and how you like to be taught. That's so true. Yeah, such a good example, I think, of how opposite we can receive things and perceive things. I do think that being able to receive input like that is a place of humility, and that sometimes, you know, it's just for whatever reason kids can't maybe receive that at that moment. They're young. They're learning. They're growing. But, yeah, interesting how they perceived that differently. Or also, like, sometimes I feel, too, in those situations, they can take learning things from a different person other than their parent a little bit better. Yeah, that's so true. I know that for my kids, for sure. That's much better. All right, well, thank you so much for agreeing to do this with me today. You're welcome. It's fun to talk about. It's a great subject. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.