podcast project

Hannah Pitts and Erin Baum discuss how Mormonism intersects with social media culture. They mention how lifestyle blogger Marla Catherine revealed her LDS religion on Instagram, leading to comments and support from both LDS and non-LDS followers. They also discuss TikToker Tiffany McGee, who faced backlash after revealing her affiliation with Scientology. They touch on the increasing awareness and discussions around Mormonism on social media platforms. They mention the book on child rearing in fundamentalist religions and the gender roles within the LDS community. They transition to discussing the case of Ruby Sue, a Mormon mommy blogger who was arrested for child abuse allegations. Hi my name is Hannah Pitts and my name is Erin Baum and I'm an anthropology minor with a study focus in legal studies and politics and I'm a religious studies major with a minor in anthropology and today we are discussing how Mormonism, the religion, intersects with social media culture. So in my research and in my personal life I've kind of seen this a lot where a lot of prominent social media figures that I follow will randomly put a post on their page and kind of expose that they're part of this very strict religion. One example that I remember very prominently in my life is a lifestyle blogger Marla Catherine and I used to watch her in middle school and I know a lot of other people did. She was kind of a part of this dope girl era. I remember distinctly how I kind of admired her fashion like she's she's a fashion blogger and in approximately 2017-2018 she posts on her story of Instagram that she is part of the LDS religion. Her caption basically said some of you guys have been asking me what LDS in my bio stands for. LDS means the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day States and which is a religion I'm part of. You might be more familiar with the term Mormons. I sometimes get comments about how put together my life appears and how I am or how perfect my life seems to be for me when really it's not but because of the gospel I am able to find peace and pure joy in my life through my savior Jesus Christ. I know that we're all children of a loving God and that if you want to know more about what I believe in I'll have a link in my Instagram story. Thanks for your constant love and support and have an awesome Sunday. So a lot of the people like first of all that's very much indoctrination like kind of explaining to her young like very like I saw this post and I was very young I was 13 years old at the time. Social media is not really the place for that sort of stuff especially if your main platform is based off like fashion and other things like that. Yeah it's very random to just kind of put a post out saying hey like some of you've been asking which I don't know if that many people like I've always noticed in her blogs that she went to church a lot but I've never had like a specific interest in asking what does the LDS in your bio stand for and what is your religion about and what makes your life seem so perfect and blah blah like she is kind of over explaining in her comment like in her her bio or whatever. Yeah. And a lot of people in the comment section like were overwhelmingly supportive of this and kind of saying that like she's so brave for putting this out there and that it's so amazing that she's also part of this religion because a lot of people like for example this user Amaretta stated reading all these supportive comments from people who aren't LDS makes me so happy. Marla you are amazing. Like that's kind of she's they're pointing they're pointing out the fact that a lot of these people who are LDS who are a part of her religion are commenting how good this is when that's literally what it like it's doing it's indoctrinating people who aren't part of the religion I think it's kind of like really shows indoctrination that she goes so far to post a link in her Instagram story to allow people greater access to like what her religion is about and how they could join and stuff like that. Yeah I mean that is sort of one of the main tenets of like the LDS church is to sort of go around and preach about the things that they believe like they have whole year-long missions dedicated to like almost everybody when they get out of college or high school goes on a mission to go and get get more people for their church that's just such a huge part of what they're doing and weirdly enough social media has just made it that much easier that if you're already a public figure like why and you believe in these things why shouldn't you be posting about it on your Instagram but it is kind of a weird thing to build your brand on something else and then cut out of the woodwork and be like hey by the way I'm Mormon and you should be too. Yeah I think it's really interesting like the missions thing a lot of people were in the comments saying hey Marla I'm on my mission right now and we should be best friends like it's just like I she's trying to build this sense of community through Mormonism and like it's really going to stay in like her young impressionable viewers mind that oh my gosh Marla is Mormon and she seems so like happy maybe I should be Mormon if I want to be more like like her. I am going to talk about the TikTok girl because I think it's more current her name is Tiffany McGee um a lot of people would know her as the chicken apple sausage with mustard girl um yeah I'm kind of obsessed with her videos like eating these weird meals um what like how she was exposed she's a Scientologist and there have been like a lot of pictures and videos of coming out of her at these like Scientology um events on their Instagram and people are really I think the weirdness with this was people's reaction was very different from Marla I think that it was more negative like I think it's mostly because that Marla Catherine's Instagram post came out like 2017 where people are like not as aware on social media of like the cultiness of Mormonism and all of that while now there is more of an awareness of it so when Tiffany McGee that's such a funny name um came out with her video explaining it people were very very very against it yeah I that just made me think of there was a documentary that I watched a while ago Keep Sweet Pray Pray and Obey that came out in 2022 I thought that came out much later yeah or much earlier but a lot of people I think saw that and um were very like enlightened sort of on what the beliefs of the Latter-day Saints were and just how strange the history behind that is um so it's it's totally possible that before this point people just didn't know quite as much you know I think that a lot of people sort of knew of the LDS church and like had heard of Mormons before but I think in the last couple years there's been a lot more you know documentaries and like TED Talks and yeah people on social media especially with TikTok like sometimes I end up on like the Mormon side of TikTok but specifically with people that are like oh my god I escaped the church and um here's you know here's my story of how I was raised and what I did to leave um LDS and it's just so strange it really is I mean I remember this really old show that I used to watch called Escaping Polygamy and I remember like that kind of was like my intro to it and then I always like end up on like weird Mormon mom TikTok like it's it's all of that and like especially with the main case study that we're looking at today I remember that blowing up hugely on TikTok around in August when um all the allegations first started coming out and honestly prior to that because of the continued um publicized publicization of like this mother's like abuse towards her children and using that to kind of back it up yeah Mormonism what's that one that one book because I keep thinking about it now I want I want the name do do do do do do books it's like the idea of like child rearing and there's that one oh yes I know exactly what yeah that for a while ago oh my god um I can't think of a name I know exactly what you're talking about I don't think it's Mormonism I think it's um oh my god just like another what is um the daughter's religious it's them oh my gosh it's literally them I know exactly what you're talking about I'm just coming up with like actual recommendations bad child rearing book the one people are mad about this I I know exactly what you're talking about that's I will I will try to find it later but yeah like though it's like telling you know telling parents of like in these fundamentalist groups how to raise their children but it includes a lot of like beating them if they misbehave and that's like very not cool but it was definitely accepted in the community for a really long time and kind of understood that like um in a lot of fundamentalist religions that like your wife and your children are the man's property and it's okay for a man to do whatever he wants as long as it's within like this boundary of well they're your property so as long as you're you know quote-unquote helping them like teaching them a lesson or you know as long as you make enough money that the woman doesn't have to work like and she can stay home then she has to kind of do whatever you want her to do around the house that's what a lot of the research that I did with these like journal articles where it's a lot of like gender roles and stuff about how women have to sort of fight between this wanting to go do something like apparently so like this one that I am reading that I have pulled up right now is from Laurie Beeman and she interviewed a lot of Canadian members of the LDS and they have the same amount of schooling and like degree rates as everyone else in the country but almost all of them were at home like homemakers and they had to like find a lot of or come to like terms with themselves about do I want to go out and like pursue this thing that I got a whole degree in and like do something where I feel like I'm really you know a part of my community in like an outside of the house sense or do I need to be staying home and taking care of my children because that's what my church says that I should be doing yeah I think that the like part where and I've kind of used this like to transition yeah um that there are a lot of people using these books to like parent their children and I think it's really interesting in the eight passengers case which is what we're mainly going to be focusing on for a case study um because let me introduce it Ruby Sue is this Mormon mommy blogger who in August of this year 2023 was arrested for allegations of child abuse um and also she was arrested alongside her business partner I believe her name is Judy Hildebrand I don't know her first name but I think it's Judy and Judy Hildebrand was and I guess still is Ruby Sue her husband and her children's therapist and there have been a lot of reports um made against her um were filed against her because she has been reported to tell families to or mothers in the families to punish their kids physically and to also punish their husbands physically um and she says that like this is the way that God would want it and they very much um use the Mormon text in that sense to be able to abuse their children and I know that she definitely did this to her own kids because in the way the arrest was made was around 10 a.m Utah police received a call from one of Hildebrand's um neighbors saying that there was a child at their door who looked severely malnourished and emaciated um around like the child's wrists and ankles were duct taped and like wounds and then this led like the police to Hildebrand's house where they took four juveniles that were found in a similar condition to the first child after the finding at the Hildebrand's Frankie and Judy were both arrested in connection to the police's findings so I think that like it was definitely proven in that sense that these children were found in this condition in the Hildebrand's home and it was Ruby's kids and Judy's kids were both found there and with all these allegations and filed complaints against her about using the Mormon text to justify how parents should punish their kids for any wrongdoings that they see fit I think it's really like just that using the Mormon text to do this in just like that is just so disgusting and messed up and where kind of social media played in this it was so heavily reported on social media and I think that prior to this um like arrest like Ruby Sue had a lot and a lot a lot a lot of complaints um filed against her with CPS because viewers were seeing her um now taking down YouTube channel of her admitting to abusing her kids for example her um youngest daughter forgot to pack her lunch for school and the teacher called um Ruby and asked if she could bring a luncheon for her daughter and Ruby refused to do so because it was her punishment to her because she wasn't being responsible enough and mind you her daughter was six years old at the time oh yeah that's it's awful and also another example of this is she made her um 15 year old son sleep on a beanbag for six months oh my god yeah he slept he slept on a beanbag for six months because he pranked his brother um like really early in the morning one time and said that they were going to Disney World and the punishment for that was he got his room taken away and he had how old was he 15 can't just sleep on a beanbag they also sent him away to like one of those really um bad juvenile camps oh yeah yeah they sent him away to one of those because of his um behavior that's so weird they're still on so many levels like partially a why like i don't know why does your son think that like toying with their younger sibling like that is okay but then he's 15 he's definitely old enough that if you like sat him down and were like hey this is not cool he would understand like the it seems in some ways way too too much to like take away your room just for saying like a lie basically or like pulling a prank but then also not enough in the actual way of explaining why that was wrong in the first place yeah um it's like just such weird child rearing techniques um and i don't think that it's not just it's like not healthy for the kid because that's not that's not the way that like the real world works if you make a mistake it's not you know nothing like that's going to happen but i guess it does make sense um you know it's just in context with like evangelical religious movements because they really do think that there's like or you know have this understanding of the world that if you do something bad god can immediately punish you and it doesn't really matter what that thing is if it just goes against you know as silly as you know drinking caffeinated drinks which i think is a very strange thing because like they like members of the lds church can't have like caffeinated tea coffee but they can have like caffeinated soft drinks like specifically like dr pepper i know that that's a thing i don't really get like you know their soda they have like soda drive-thrus it's but it's like i don't know it's weird sort of uh negotiation i was reading about this the idea of negotiating boundaries of like the church will establish this boundary of oh no like substances like mind-altering substances like sure fine cool no alcohol no weed no other drugs like that sure that makes sense um and i i suppose if you're going to be really strict about it you can throw caffeine in there but like at least be consistent about it of like if it's going to be any caffeine then it should be all caffeine but it's kind of same with like just everything else they do this sort of um boundary negotiation of like oh well women belong in the house okay well or women belong in a space of homemaking and child rearing okay but does that count like if you need more money how does she go out and help provide like a second income for the family like that's not a one-income household is not um like basically a thing anymore it's not uh reliable and and if she does go out and um like help provide for the family but like does that mean that the man's boundaries are negotiated too like that he has to stay home because a lot of them are sort of against that too like that's not a man's place to help be in the home and take care of children i think that's part of the reason that um yeah like it kind of fosters this environment for um like mormon exactly exactly because i feel that like they don't want the mom to go out and like the actual workforce not saying that blogging isn't a job but it's like foster yeah being like out of the house yeah so they are now like okay what do we do now to get an income we'll post blogs of our perfect mormon family online then we'll earn income through that because this channel had over 8 million subscribers before it was taken down yeah and that's such like a new it's such a new stream of income like literally in the last 10 years that it's so unregulated i know there's been a lot of push recently about because mostly because of things like like mommy bloggers from any religion or even just like secular ones of does this count as child labor like should they have the same sort of regulations on it that child actors do because they're kind of doing the same thing how much um of your life can you like force a child to be in front of a camera and it just creates like this really weird dystopian like home life where they feel like they always have to be putting on a face or doing something interesting or being dramatic um or they have like no privacy i like i applaud some of like the other sort of online creators like if they're not doing like specifically lifestyle like blogging that they tend to keep their children like absolutely out of it yeah even to the point that like i mean i know that um there's a channel i watch who like we didn't even know that one of the people on it was was pregnant and then just like on her instagram they were like we have a baby now and like didn't show the baby's face and she said nothing about being pregnant she's like for the whole nine months and they were like we're going to continue to not talk about it but like and you're not going to see you know our child's face on in videos on instagram in anything like we might make posts but like the kids face is going to be blurred or they're gonna be turned away but so it's like it's it's this weird boundary of you know your entire job is to share your life with people online and getting married having kids buying a house your religion are all really big parts of that um and things that you might want to put on social media but also all parts of life that you don't really need people knowing about or that can even be dangerous if they know too much about it um and i would really like to see some more push for like how how are children supposed to be treated in um social media of social media context but i guess it's only a problem that we've had for the last it's very new like less than 30 years and policy just isn't keeping up with it but it does end up like just fostering this community where people put all these things online and then if they believe it's okay like if they believe that that's a reasonable way to punish a child then they're going to show that too um and i guess it's better than if it was just you know nobody knew about it in the neighborhood like at least people online were aware that these sort of things were happening and they're like hey you have to you know someone has to do something about this obviously it kind of didn't work but at least people were monitoring the situation yeah i think there's a lot of um pushback from people on social media against like law enforcement when it comes to this because it's kind of frustrating when because this was going on for years people have been aware of like how she treats her children um and it's very frustrating for viewers when they're seeing this a b and c happen to the kids and then they report it to cps or they're reported for law enforcement and it's kind of not taken seriously even though there's like quite literal like admission to guilt from this mom like they're just not doing anything about it because they just think oh it's just social media like it's not real but in fact it like this is the first kind of instance where they were caught but it took up to this point of a kid going up to a neighbor's door and having like duct tape around his wrist from their moms doing this to them like it kind of it's really frustrating that had to come to this point when it was so obvious that this has been going on for so long yeah i don't know what else to say yeah um i don't know we can kind of just keep doing like is there anything else that you wanted to say that you have or do we just want to talk about we can maybe talk a little bit about how um i went through everything i mean you went through everything i could talk about the child's responses because uh some of her children came out oh sure yeah okay okay so one of her um um child children came out um on instagram stories her name is sherry she is the oldest one and i like she has been blogs and she's been probably 12 and she's 18 and above now she's graduated high school um and she posted on her instagram stories like literally just finally wow yeah that's really rough so i i can i can say that that to me is like substantial evidence to be like this has been going on for a very long time even the eldest daughter has been dealing with this and she's very very young and i believe her um business partner's niece came out and talked about like how she would stay with her on and she would have to like like endure so much abuse like a lot of religious abuse um regarding like praying like she would have to pray on her hands like while kneeling on her knees wow like it was just disgusting i'm gonna try to find the book and then maybe i don't know like maybe try fundamentalist religious um book because i think it was like i just remember it was with doggers that's all i remember oh my god okay yeah so yeah it's a book it's a baptist couple yeah but also sort of just in this like fundamentalist like rise in um i'm sure they took a peek at it yeah in things and it even if it's not you know um even if it's not necessarily mormon they do share a lot of ideas about how um like children should be treated and so yeah that's the that's the book we're referencing it's called how to train up a child it was um published in 1994 by michael and debbie pearl oh my gosh yeah so literally in the book they suggest that you give your child like spankings when they um are like done something bad and that you should hit them i think they refer to it as strikes yeah yeah it's really bad and it's really really bad i know that there's also a bit about like they are talking about the how to the differences between how you should be like a infant baby versus how you should like and moving up like oh here's how you if you need to get a switch for a child like under one here's what you should be looking for versus like a child that's like one to five versus a child that's like five and over um a lot of like fundamentalist families and maybe even mormon families um like use this book as a guide to raise their like as a principal guide to raise their children and i just think that probably has the worst impact i could imagine well it's just like like really a book on how to abuse your child well yeah because like one of the main things that are kind of taught like sort of values of um the lds church is like obeying and like everybody like that was sort of obviously it was talked about in the documentary that keep sweet and obey um it's in the title but the idea that like if someone who has like more quote-unquote religious authority than you says something you're just not supposed to question it and sort of the hierarchy of like it goes from like god to the prophets to like whoever's running your church to your husband to the mom to the children and so if the mom says something like the children are supposed to just respect that and take that as you know law and the mom can kind of do anything she wants to quote-unquote teach that child a lesson and if the dad you know feels that the mom is doing it in a different like in the wrong way they kind of just keep going up the chain and there's nobody to be like hey that's not okay yeah um because if it comes all the way from like i don't know exactly what the book of mormon says about like how to raise a child um but i guess if it goes all the way up to like the head of your church being like well i think it's okay then then like they don't care what the law says because it's it's god's will um whether or not you're abusing your children yeah um which is just absolutely crazy um um but i think i think we should also touch on just that like the rise of social media and um the values of the mormon church just like have perfectly created this situation where it makes it easy for a woman to like sort of fulfill her her like religious duties by staying home while also making a second yeah and also like a community like a lot of these women you know they like go to church together and that's it like if they're expected to stay home the only people who they might regularly talk to are like other women who live close to them who might also be staying home or people in the church and if like all of their you know sort of worldly sense is just this echo chamber of you know things like hey it's okay to abuse your children you don't need a job you don't need to like leave the house for any reason you know you need to be listening to your husband or listening to god then they can't really get a whole lot of outside perspective on what's going on and i think that that's a that's part of the reason that women are women in these communities are pulled to like mlms but that's also a big reason why they might be interested in this sort of influencer lifestyle they don't really have to leave the house but they get a much larger community of people who they can talk to bounce ideas off of um and unfortunately some of those ideas are things like your child doesn't need a bed yeah and i think it's just so interesting that like both like the marla taffer case and the a passenger case i mean it's really obvious that utah like in itself is a very isolating state religious wise like religion wise because it just is this these two main religions with mormonism and lds because like they are they are separate but they're like mainly usually associated with the same thing because mormonism was like its own sect and then lds broke off for them after um more like the mormons didn't want to practice polygamy anymore so while keep sweet and obey is like mostly about the lds like a lot of the key principle um beliefs like regarding like raising your children like using punishment and religion against them like it's all the same mostly i think lds is a little more strict with it but obviously in the like in the eight passengers case it's obviously not that different like these kids were found with duct tape around their ankles and hands like i don't know exactly what they're doing in the lds religion but these women were mormon and this is what happened to their children like even and it's just the whole state of utah is so isolating and allowing like for this to happen becoming very normalized especially through social media like these women they they look so normal they look just like like there's a lot of instances where i'm like holy crap that person's mormon i did not know that before yeah it's insane to me yeah it's also it freaks me out a little bit that like their therapist was sort of in on it yeah especially because in communities like this i guess that you know probably getting getting any sort of advice outside the church is probably not seen as a good move yeah and so even if like obviously i think you have to be like a little bit mentally ill in some way to like justify harming your children like that and instead of actually going to like a secular place where these things can be thought through and handled in a safe and sane way kind of just going to someone yeah encouraging it and backing it up even more and even suggesting to further harm your children and your husband and like your extended family yeah because they're all like reading the same thing and that's just it's the same it really is yeah is there anything else we can talk about well i think so yeah