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Prof. Shlomo Maital and R. Elisha Wolfin on Vayikra
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Prof. Shlomo Maital and R. Elisha Wolfin on Vayikra
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In this podcast episode, the hosts discuss the book of Vayikra (Leviticus) and the challenges it presents. They delve into questions about who wrote the Torah and whether it matters, and discuss the role of God in academic research. They also explore the purpose of sacrifices in the Bible and why the rabbis decided to no longer practice them. The hosts emphasize the importance of asking questions and the wisdom of the sages in interpreting and sometimes changing the meaning of the Torah. Shalom. Shalom, everyone. Shalom. Shalom. Shalom, Elisha. So this is our seventh podcast, I believe. Yes. And we're starting a new book, the book of Vayikra, Leviticus. And you have a lot of pages here spread out, as you said in our conversation before recording, a lot of questions, a lot of issues. So just to remind us, we're sitting here, Professor Shlomo Yital and myself, Elisha Wolffin, from Kilat Ve'ahat and Zichron Yaakov. And the parashay of parashat, Vayikra. Yes, and Elisha, I have a lot of trepidation about Vayikra, because we have ahead of us ten parashat, and they're all about korbanot, various subjects, five and five, but ten parashat on sacrifices. And Elisha, every year you lead us through these ten parashat beautifully with incredible creative insights. But all I have, Elisha, is a lot of questions. I'm going to fly you with questions today about Vayikra. Well, we're approaching Pesach, so questions are the Jewish art, asking good questions. Somebody once said that it's more important to know some of the questions than all of the answers. I still think it's important to know some of the answers, but the questions are important. The questions are like, knowing how to ask questions is like a muscle. The answers are what the muscles can later do. But knowing how to ask questions is important. It's crucial, and Einstein said that 80% of the solution to a problem is the way you ask the question. So the way you ask questions often can lead you to insightful answers. We love Einstein. We love Einstein. So let's roll. Let's roll. Take it away. So, Elisha, who wrote Sefer Vayikra? I looked it up. According to the scholars, it was written over a long period of time, and much of the Book of Leviticus, Sefer HaKohanim, was written in Persia, in Galut, in the Diaspora. Elisha, does it matter who wrote the Torah? Does it matter to us? That's such a wonderful question. Well, when I was in rabbinical school, my professor for the Book of Leviticus was Professor Rabbi Jacob Milgram, Zichron Oli Voha. Great, great, great thinker, and one of the world's leading scholars on Vayikra, and it was a huge privilege to have him as a teacher. And being the scholar, the academic scholar that he was, what he taught us was primarily the sources, who wrote it, when, where, what are the different theories about it. And then at the very end of the semester, we had an oral examination, an oral exam, which I usually like oral exams, and I like this one too. And each one of us was called up to sit with him, and he asked a number of questions, and then he said at the end of the exam, do we have a question for him as well? And I did, I did. I asked him, Professor Milgram, you're also a rabbi, not just a professor, and in all this academic research that you are teaching us here, which is all very interesting, but where's God? Where's God in all this? You know, is God present in academia at all? And he almost failed me, I think, in my exam. He kind of, he said, of course, of course. Can't you see? Can't you see God is all over this research? I got a little bit embarrassed, because I did not see God all over the research. And he showed how the deeper the research, the academic research, the more awe can be found in the text. And he said, if it was just a question of who wrote what, then that's not that interesting. But finding the wisdom within that deep research, and he showed me in different places, it was a long conversation, people were waiting outside for their turn for their exam. And he showed me, he taught me the art of finding God in academic research. It was a real turning point in my thinking. Wow. Yeah, it was very, very powerful. So, he taught me to, on the one hand, love research, but research in such a way, if you don't see, hear, feel God in the research, then you haven't gone deep enough in your academic research. There's no novelty, there's no, and so I've used that a lot. So, personally, what we do here at the Hasta, I think we really try and bring both voices, the traditional, you know, we're a traditional tilah, and so on the one hand, it's very like, Tuviak Holev, the fiddler on the roof, in memory of Chaim Topor, Zichron Holev, who just passed away, maybe that's a good time to say it, how Tuviak stands there and says, on the one hand, his daughter wants to marry a socialist, you know, God forbid. On the other hand, she loves him, what is love anyway? On the one hand, on the other hand, and that's so Jewish. So, on the one hand, here we are studying Torah through traditional lenses, God wrote the Torah, God dictated the Torah to Moshe, except for the very last part where Moshe actually dies and posts a few paragraphs after his death. That's on the one hand, and we read it with that wisdom in mind. On the other hand, we read the academic research of different people and different human beings wrote the Torah. So, I must ask you this question, it troubles me a lot. I'm an economist, I look at things kind of through the glasses of economics, unfortunately. You have Sefer Vayikra, which seems to be written by the Kohanim, as a job description to create a really nice, cushy job for themselves. How do we read this book, Alisha, which clearly seems to be a product of the Kohanim, writing for themselves and creating a beautiful job? Well, yes, that's a good question, and if we can philosophize about this a second or theologize, then maybe, you know, God works, God appears in our world through our dealings. So, you are drawn to economy, I hear you very often saying, you know, unfortunately, but you're drawn to economy, to the study of economics and creativity and entrepreneurship. But that's not Shlomo Mithal doing that, that's God doing that, dressed up as Shlomo Mithal, and later as Professor Shlomo Mithal. So, God works in this universe through the Eucalyptus tree, through yourself and myself, and through the Kohanim as well. So, if a human being can put something in writing, for example, we even know, even tradition tells us that Moshe was the one who actually wrote, wrote at least part of the Torah. So, nevertheless, Moshe actually wrote, but it was God writing it through him. So, at the end of the day, there's no real contradiction. The Kohanim are going to do what the Kohanim are supposed to do. They're supposed to create, to advance their own caste, to advance their own agenda. That's their role in the world, and the Prophet will advance the Prophet's role, and sometimes they will clash, and that too, they're meant to clash. God is bringing all of God's facets, and these facets clash with one another. So, there's really, at the end of the day, no real contradiction. And I have another really hard question, and this also troubles me a lot. So, we have ten parashat in Vayikra, and they're all about sacrifices, and the rabbis decided, in their wisdom, enough, we no longer practice sacrifices, we don't have the Bet Migdash, it was destroyed, so we will no longer practice animal sacrifices. How is it, Elisha, that in the Bible, there are clear mitzvot, clear commandments about what to do? Ten whole parashat, a whole book, 20% of the Torah about sacrifices, and yet the rabbis say, no, we won't do this. But other things? Other things, wow. To the last dot, and the last detail, how is it we are open to change, radical change in some cases, and yet in other cases, and there's even a statement by a famous rabbi, Chadash Minu Torah Asur, you're not allowed to do any innovation, but it happens all the time. How do we understand this? Right, right, right, well, yeah, you have such amazing questions. And we said earlier, it's all in the questions, isn't it? And here I am, trying to provide answers, well, really, those important things are the questions. Well, first of all, it's interesting, the latter part of your question was about the rabbi, who said, Chadash Asur Minu Torah, it's a sentence taken from Mishnah, and he's the founder of the Haredi phenomenon, which, in my humble opinion, is the ultimate reform movement. Saying, Chadash Asur Minu Torah is as reform as it can get. The Torah is a spring that never stops flowing, a novelty. All of us who write B'Rashot, we're all seeking a chidosh, to bring something new to the world, and it's all taken from the Torah. So to say, Chadash Asur Minu Torah, sounds like blasphemy to me. But if we look at the sages, it's quite amazing, the reason why I have so much respect for the sages, and admiration for the sages, they were incredibly courageous. They knew the Torah really well, and they felt free to play with the words, to massage the words, to sometimes take things and turn them upside down. And they proved exactly why what they're doing is correct, something that no rabbi today would dare to do. So when they insist on something in the Torah to keep it intact, while they insist on taking something else and totally changing it, and giving it a whole new meaning, that means we've got to look really deep into their statements, because they knew how to change things. And if they didn't change, what did they see there that was so fundamental that should not change? And that requires a lot of wisdom. So for example, I think one example is It's an easy, well, it's a difficult statement, but it's an easy example, also taken from Leviticus, from Parashat Kedushim. And they won't turn this around and say, no, it's not supposed to be ahava, it's really supposed to be sin'ah, or they won't turn that upside down, never. They stick to the letter, and they explore how is love, how is your fellow human being to be loved, to what extent, are there any boundaries to that love? But when it comes to sacrifices, they look deep inside and they ask, what's the essence of sacrifices? The word korban, korban from the word korov, to come close, to come near. So we're trying to get closer, closer to God, closer to ourselves, closer to source, to essence, everyone will give a different name. And if that's the case, there are many ways of getting closer. Perhaps once the way of getting closer is bringing a lamb to the temple. When that no longer fit the cultural norm, the rabbis beautifully and wisely said, no more lambs, we're going to revolutionize it, and we're offering now prayer, and tzedakah, and charity. That's brilliant, that's brilliant. The essence remains the same, we're trying to get close. So today, to get close, we're bringing a lamb, or even flour, with oil to the temple, it's not going to get us closer. But prayer will, tzedakah certainly will. So that's there, that's the wisdom. Okay, but there still is controversy about the sacrifices, Elisha. And you mentioned Yeshayahu Leibowitz. We'll come to that in a moment. He had a brilliant sister, Nechama, and she wrote a series of wonderful commentaries on the Parsha. Right, some say that Nechama Leibowitz had a brilliant brother, Yeshayahu. I agree with that, I agree. Her commentaries are insightful, and she brings so many sources, she's so, so learned. But she mentions, there's a saying, rivalry of scholars increases wisdom. And it reads, By the way, I grew up all my life in universities with scholars, and I've seen sometimes the rivalry of scholars brings rivalry, but in this case, there's a famous rivalry that I want to ask you about, between Maimonides and Nachmanides, where Moshe ben Maimon and Moshe ben Nachman, two great rivals, and they disagree totally on the sacrifices. Rambam has one take on the sacrifices, and he is opposed by Nachmanides. How do you see this quarrel between these two great, brilliant thinkers about sacrifices and the role of sacrifices? Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, earlier in our podcast, I talked about on the one hand, on the other hand. I think it applies here too. So on the one hand, we have Nachmanides saying that sacrifice are, we should really start with Maimonides, it'll be easier to explain Nachmanides. Maimonides claims that sacrifices are, basically, there's a form of weaning humanity first from human sacrifices, and we see the final end of human sacrifices in the Hebrew tradition, is with Akedat Yitzchak, God saying to Abraham, there's a ram in the bush there, take him instead of your son, and from now on, no children will sacrifice, which was a novelty in those days. Since our sacrificing animals, ideally, God should have said to Abraham, Abraham, no more sacrifices, period. But God knew, God in his mercy, knew that we cannot wean humanity from one day to the next from sacrifices. Let's do it gradually. And then in the year 70, Common Era, when the Temple was destroyed, that was the time to wean Am Yisrael from animal sacrifices altogether, and move to prayer and tzedakah. So, in this sense, sacrifices are, you know, they both, Maimonides and Nachmanides would agree with the sages, the essence is still getting close. How do you get close? Maimonides said, once the culture was of getting close through sacrifice, now we can ascend the spiraling spiritual ladder and get closer through prayer and tzedakah. Which means that the sacrifices are not in themselves important or necessary. Nachmanides claims, if sacrifices are commanded in the Torah, then sacrifices are essential. It's not a means of weaning the people. Sacrifices were important, and that has implications, because if a third Temple will ever, or when, or one day, depending what group you belong to, if there's going to be a third Temple, are we going to return to sacrifices? And if we will return to sacrifices, will they be animal sacrifices, or will they be agricultural sacrifices? Solet, mincha, blula b'shemen, etc. Or maybe it will be sending us all together, it wouldn't even be sacrifices at all. Maybe it will be a Temple without sacrifices. So it has a huge implication on this question, because according to Nachmanides, when a Temple will be restored, then if sacrifices are a positive commandment, and not just a means of weaning the people, then we will continue sacrificing. And I think instead of deciding, we have the luxury of not having to decide which one is correct. I think what we can take from Nachmanides, who says, no, sacrifices are, we are commanded to sacrifice. The deep wisdom there is that we are commanded to give, to give from ourselves, to give that which is most precious to us, to give that which is, it will symbolize to your firstborn son, then through your firstborn, you know, the firstborn lambs, and your precious fruit and harvest, etc. In other words, it's the art of getting close, coming close to God, to source, by giving that which is most precious to you. And that's beautiful. There's great wisdom in that. And we human beings need practical examples of how to get close to something. Yes. And Elisha, at the end of your drashah, continuing your thought, you make a really important point. And you write that God does not work for us, even though we think so at times, but we work for God. And the question is, how? How do we work? How do we work for God? You mentioned Ishael Leibovitz, and his view of the Torah was that the Torah is about serving God. Okay, not about stories or history or anything. I'd rather disagree. I think the stories in the Bible are hugely powerful. But in terms of serving God, I have a small commentary on this. So I work and live in the world of startups. And in the world of startups, the goal of a startup is to create value for people and to enrich their lives and to make them happier and healthier and smarter and better people create value. And I see this as a work of God. And the startups who succeed change the world and do amazing things for people. And I think in some ways, this is also a religious credo. How is it that we serve God? We serve God by creating value for other people. And the Bible helps us learn how to do this, largely by stories, although Leibovitz doesn't think that's the case in all cases. But we learn from stories how to create value. How do you relate to this? How do we serve God rather than vice versa? Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. First of all, I don't think Leibovitz, he may have not personally liked stories too much because he loved philosophy and he was drawn to halakha and to philosophy. But I think he would agree, actually, with what you're saying. I think what he's saying is that the stories are not history. They're stories that come to emphasize a deep idea. And I think the two of you would actually really agree on that, that the stories are a metaphor. They're a metaphor. And Maimonides claims that over and over again, that the stories of the Torah are all metaphors. And I'm sure in the startup world, stories are used to teach something, to convey something. So stories are really, really, really important. And the stories, in a way, can teach us how to serve God. But then it depends on the story. So if we have a story about a person who is in dire need and is passively waiting for society, I'm deliberately not mentioning God here, for society and others to redeem him and help him and save him, well, he can actually help himself, save himself. He's actually expecting God to work for him. And if the story is about entrepreneurs and someone who has this burning desire to invent something, a burning desire to bring good to the world, I have a very good friend who's a medical entrepreneur. And he has a passion for finding yet another cure for cancer. And it's not in order to win a Nobel Prize. It'll be really nice if he does. But I think it's a genuine, divine passion within him. And his whole story is a story of devoting his whole life, because today to create a medication, it takes years and years and years and billions of dollars sometimes. And his whole life is one long story of trying to create medication for cancer that will heal people and bring goodness to the world. So yes, I think that's a way of serving God. Absolutely. You mentioned Topol and Fiddle on the Roof earlier, Elisha. There's a wonderful song in Fiddle on the Roof. Topol sings it perfectly. Topol and Golda, his wife Golda. And Topol asks Golda, do you love me? And she waffles, and he asks her six times, do you love me? And she tells him she washes for him and cooks for him, etc. And he keeps asking, do you love me? And finally, she says, grudgingly, I guess I love you. I think it's a metaphor, Elisha, for God. God is asking us whether we love God, because we're commanded to love God. By the way, I'm not sure how you can command an emotion, but we are commanded to love God. It's the name of our congregation. And we respond in loving God by the way we act, the way we behave toward our fellow man. To me, that is my take on loving God, is loving other people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm with you there. I'm totally with you. I love this song from Fiddler on the Roof. And I never counted the times that he asks her, and she kind of says, I wash for you and I clean. I never knew it was six. And then on the seventh time, the seventh day, she actually says, I guess, yes. So I guess that means that I love you, yes. And finally, he can say, well, I love you too. Yeah, I think you're right. You know, we're studying a course right now on love, and we've reached exactly this point of Ahavat Hashem, loving God. And one of the, I think in our fourth class, if I'm not mistaken, we started the famous Mishnah that says, what is Ahavat She'inat, love that's not dependent on anything, as opposed to love that is dependent on something. That love which is not dependent on anything endures no matter what. Love which does depend on something, that something's gone, so is that love. And in a way, from that class on, everything we studied was, in a way, a response to that Mishnah. And the example the Mishnah itself gives is the love between Jonathan and David. And when we read the story of Jonathan and David, I don't know, we may even mention it in one of our podcasts, I'm not so sure, but Jonathan lets David go. They're really close friends. They're very, very close. And obviously, if you're close friends, you want to spend time together. But Yonatan, Jonathan knows that his father wants to kill David, and therefore says, you know, because our friendship is so precious, because I love you so much, I'm letting you go. Go, go, save yourself. As opposed to Amnon and Tamar, that's love that's dependent on lust and sexuality, where once he receives, once he has sexual intercourse with Tamar, he no longer loves her. So why am I saying that? Because, yes, loving God is not for God's sake. It's for our sake. I don't believe that God needs our love. God is way beyond need for our love. We need to love God. And one way is to directly love God. I really believe in that, and I try to practice that. I meditate on that, too. I express my love for God. But I think the Jewish way, and it's not only Jewish, but it's certainly a very Jewish way, is since God does not need our love, love God through the love of God's creation. Loving other human beings. Loving everything in God's creation. And I mean everything, everything. To practice loving all that is, to practice that, in my humble opinion, is the essence of Vayikranu, is the essence of Avodat Hashem, the love of God. I agree, and I think I would extend it a bit. Not only to loving God's creatures on the earth, but loving God's amazing planet, loving this incredible planet that God has created. And Elisha, look what we're doing to our planet. And it's terrible. This is definitely not love of God when we're defacing and ruining our planet. It's time we respected the planet, which was God's work, God's creation. Nachon, nachon. No, I agree with you. But the only one caveat I have, as we're drawing to a close, I guess, but the only one caveat that I have is, and I don't know if I'll even be able to explain it here, because it's a tough one, it's a difficult one. Maybe not a good idea to end with something so difficult. But we have been accustomed to loving what we perceive as good. And, you know, we know from Isaiah, you know, God is both the good and the evil. Are we able to love... Now, this is dangerous what I'm saying, so I'm going to, you know, there's a caveat here. When we do harm, we need to refrain from doing harm. Sur mirada fetov, refrain from doing evil and do good. But nevertheless, if we've done something bad, and we truly love God, then we have to find a way to love ourselves even for having done the bad things that we did. And to find a way of forgiving ourselves, because we did it because that's the best that we could do at that particular moment. We can later learn that if we are judgmental of ourselves and just continuously judge our actions, that doesn't sit well, in my opinion, with loving God. So, Elisha, on that thought, I think we can end. I think we've crossed the first of the ten parashat in Vayikra. Nine more to go, Elisha. Let's wish ourselves well. And I look forward to them. I look forward to them. Me too. Shlomo, thank you. And one last thing, one last thing. Just to all of us who are listening, just so you know that last night, Shlomo and Zvart Sharonah and their grandson, yet another grandchild, got married. So, mazal tov. And you create this amazing family in this world. And you're reaping so much nachat, so much nachat from all the loving work that you put into your life. And Elisha, in the 400 people who were there, there was every possible political opinion. And nonetheless, Elisha, there was such an outpouring of love and emotion. And our grandson was married to Chatan, this big strapping soldier who serves in a unit that does patrols in the Armored Corps. Big strapping, tough soldier. And Elisha, he was so emotional over the beauty and the love that was pouring out around him. It was quite amazing. He was in tears on many occasions. It was a phenomenal experience and a total outburst of love rather than the opposite. That's beautiful, that's beautiful. At the end of the day, love will heal this awful wrist. Yes. Tov, so Shabbat Shalom, everyone, and thank you for listening. We always welcome your comments, so feel free to write to us or however you want to respond. Leet Rot. Shabbat Shalom. Shabbat Shalom.
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