Graduate Students

The university is seen as a place where individuals can sustain, develop, and act on their core values, including religious beliefs. The concept of pluralism is discussed, questioning whether a neutral space can exist for people with various religious or non-religious backgrounds. The university is seen as a work in progress and faces challenges in accommodating the increasingly diverse society. The experience may differ for individuals depending on their backgrounds. The interface dialogue class is mentioned as a space where divergent views are welcomed and shared. The speakers haven't personally experienced conflicts between their academic commitments and their faith, but acknowledge that others may have different experiences. The religious studies department is described as accommodating and open to discussions about academic commitment and religious practice. Interreligious conflict is acknowledged as a reality in these spaces. Alrighty, now we're back and we can start up again. I'm going to open with the question for both of you, which is, do you feel that the university is a place where you can sustain, develop, and act on your core values, religious or not? And I'll open it to whoever wants to start. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I think it is in many ways. I mean, the university to me is like a constant work in progress. It's like a university in general is kind of more of an amoeba than it is like some sort of like static infrastructure. It seems to kind of shift and change all the time. And I feel like there are just constant conversations about, is this a place where, especially as it relates to religion, can you sustain in a kind of secular environment? And it's the challenge of pluralism really at the end of the day is a purported idea that there might be some sort of neutral space that we can create in order to sustain, develop, and act on your core values for people of many different religious backgrounds or non-religious backgrounds. And it's something that I study also and think about a lot is this kind of idea of like, is that neutral space something that, first of all, can exist? And then second of all, is it something that's like natural or is it something that you have to kind of like fabricate? And I think the university, you know, I guess you're probably asking particularly about Penn in this case. I think that Penn is a place that's doing like a decent job of it, but it's also Penn's, you know, against the same challenges that many places are in of an increasingly pluralistic society, an increasingly diverse society with all of these very diverse backgrounds. I think for me, I feel like I can sustain, develop, and act on my core values. Sometimes I wonder if that's because like I'm a cis-American white guy. And so this kind of purported neutral space in Pennsylvania, in America, is one that has kind of historically worked really well for me and people like me. You're a nice guy. Yeah, thanks. And, you know, maybe different people would have different answers to that question depending on, you know, where they're coming from. But I would say that it has felt like a place for me that has room to grow and room to shift while also, you know, being something that has spaces that are challenging, I guess. You know, and not just kind of, because I think challenging is where that, the part of the question of like develop and act on my core values, like you need challenge. Challenge is not like a thing to run away from, I think, in interfaith dialogue or in kind of secular spaces, but rather something to like see as generative. Yeah, that's how. Yeah, I really like how you bring up this idea of pluralism and like, what does that mean? What is a neutral space, right? Because I think we're all coming in with what we believe. We're all coming in with our ideas, with our values, with our beliefs, our desires. And I really find that this place is one that's open to all of us, you know. I haven't felt like I need to hide anything, which is really beautiful. But I have thought, because I come from this more like conservative background, I don't know how someone that would still believe that stuff, like if I would come here four years ago, five, six years ago, I don't know how I would have felt because of like some of the things that are said in classrooms and some like the shock at, like a professor says something that someone else said, and then there's like shock by everyone, usually from like someone that's more conservative. And like, I do wonder how someone that's more conservative, even like theologically would feel in a place like this. But I guess the place where I am in my faith journey of just being really open, just like how you talked about like that pasture, the way I've kind of seen it is like before I used to hold on to my faith with my fist closed, like it was just like really tight, and it had to be this very tight, systematic thing. And I was just like, I still have it, I still hold it, but it's like my hands are open. And things can like come in and come out. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of similar to what you were saying. And that's interesting that we have to find ways to kind of like understand that, you know, like visual ways to understand our own journey. But so I don't feel that for myself. I feel again, like I can just come in with all my beliefs, but I'm also very open to other people. But I do wonder if someone with less, I guess, politically correct beliefs, you know, at least this environment, I wonder what that experience would be like. And I have thought about that, you know, I don't think I've met people, you know, no one... People don't exist here. Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm sure. At least where I am, I haven't really, really met a lot of people. But yeah, I would love to meet people like that here and kind of hear about their experience. But where I've really seen this in practice is the interface dialogue class that I'm currently seeing. Yeah, yeah. So we're currently both TAing a class together, which is really, it's been a really cool experience. And yeah, I think everyone in that class feels very open to a group of people who are taking an interface dialogue. But it is cool. I mean, the fact that that exists in this type of institution is really, really, it's got something, you know. And that everyone can come in there and have, sometimes there are very divergent views about certain things. And people are open to saying that. And I think that's a wonderful, wonderful thing. I mean, we're very lucky that in our interface dialogue class, it's a small community of 18 people. We meet twice a week for the entire semester. So a lot of community is able to be built in that small space. That's awesome. People can share things. The wider university makes it a lot difficult to express beliefs where things might be a little crazier. Yeah. And maybe that's interesting because, again, this is my first year here and I'm a grad student. So I think we're not as involved in the general, especially the undergrad university life. Right, right. And especially the School of Education, it's a very bubbly, happy place. You go in there, everyone's like hugging each other. Yay, everyone's in flowers and roses. It's very cute, you know. So I really have that very welcoming vibe there. And I really feel that. But yeah, it's interesting to hear other people's perspectives. Yeah, that is so interesting. So with that, David, I don't think you have it really specifically, but have there really been conflicts between your academic commitments and your faith? For instance, I can just share as a Jewish student who was doing the holidays. I'm not supposed to do work on these holidays that are spread throughout the year. And when they land on a weekday and they ask to miss class and they ask to miss a test or need an extension on exam, sometimes it's a little, I'm a little hesitant, a little uncomfortable, but I thought I'd send this email. And most teachers, if not every teacher I've interacted with has been very accommodating. But it's still something that I have to do. And fortunately, as an undergraduate, there hasn't been anything that has shook my religious beliefs so deeply. But kind of, have there been any conflicts that you've felt? This question is for both of you. Yeah. I mean, I guess as I was saying, there haven't really been these deep conflicts. And maybe another, like what you said, I'm a Christian, you know, and Christianity is like the dominant religion in this country. We have all the holidays taken off. So that's never been really an issue. And yeah, and even like in this, on this campus, it feels like a very, to me, it felt like a very welcoming place, you know, and I know people might have different experiences, but to me, I felt very welcome. And like I was saying, a lot of my students, co-students at GSE, they also practice their faith and it's like a part of their lives and they share about it. And so I haven't felt any conflicts. I have had some professors that speak with some hostility about religion in general. But I kind of agree with them. You're like, you're a good boy. Yeah, I mean, I am in a religious studies department. And so, you know, it is a program that prides itself in being accommodating to people of all religions and, you know, making the work accessible to people depending on what holidays they observe or other sorts of practice. So I haven't in that kind of sense, you know, and I think, yeah, I found the department in particular, just like a really warm place for, you know, being able to like work out questions of academic commitment alongside religious practice. And yeah, it's a place that is open to that or those conversations are kind of always happening, maybe sometimes behind closed doors in some sense. Like it's not the thing we're meeting with in particular, but it is a thing that's like always being talked about among the graduate students with our faculty advisors. It's just something that I think, because, you know, I would say it's probably half of the faculty in the department are religious and still keep some level of practice themselves and then the other half don't. And so, you know, and it just naturally is a topic of conversation. You know, it's kind of inevitable. So yeah, I haven't. And, you know, I think the, yeah, I guess the only thing that I would say like to this particular point and question is just back to the kind of also the conversation we were having earlier about pluralism. I think one of the kind of inevitabilities of these kinds of spaces is that, you know, there is such thing as like interreligious conflict in the U.S. and in other places around the world. And so people have experience with some of these things, you know. And so I think those things can kind of like bubble up sometimes in certain conversations. And so especially being a Christian and Christianity has a particularly stark imperial past, you know, there can be interesting comments made sometimes about like Christianity in general as a, you know, what do we do with the fact that it has that imperial past or things like that. And that's always an interesting thing to see how I'm reacting to it. Even if I'm holding Christianity so loosely, it's still like where I came from. So sometimes I'm like, like that like hits me. And yet also like it should hit me like I should. Like it kind of goes back to the fact that like this neutral space should also be one that challenges us. And, you know, it's a question of how do we make something like Jewish holidays more accessible so that a Jewish student is not feeling any sort of like, like it's totally OK to ask or just like be like, hey, it's Passover, like I'm not coming to class today, period. And make sure that all professors are like that no professor would be like, I have a problem with that. You know, I would say that there is, in my opinion, a bit of a bit of like that hesitation to that even because, for example, the religion of apostropharianism. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I wanted to wear a specific hat and a picture on a driver's license. I mean, they will do because there's a religious belief that you can have holidays and you can you can take off more days. So letting that go too far, I think, might just make it so people like, oh, my religion, then I'll go to school. Right. And then things get different. So I think that there is a bit of like we don't want to go too extreme with that. But yes, I'm with you. Yeah. No, just students of mainstream religion. Sure. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. No, you're totally right. It opens up a full other set of questions. But I you know, it's it's cool to do it at a university because it's a place that's committed to like wrestling with those questions. I feel like it is a place that is committed to wrestling with those questions. So, yeah. Yeah. So now kind of taking a shift from your roles here and kind of how you have come into those roles, how these roles affected you. So how is your studying religion or data working in your faith space? Or I know you mentioned that your specific programs in the Graduate School of Education is within a cultural education as well. How do you think that's influenced your own beliefs? You want me to go first? Yeah. OK, cool. Yeah. I mean, I think I've kind of alluded to this a little bit already in terms of, you know, just being a part of a religious studies kind of academic community. My eyes are opened all the time to new realities about the intricacies of other faiths and the specificity with which a particular community in a very specific place, sometimes, you know, as an anthropologist talking to me about religion and like, you know, a part of the world I've never been in. And it's a religion that I've never had a lot of exposure to it. You know, it exposes me to something about the world. And I'm forced to reckon with like how that, you know, touches me or doesn't like, you know, I think a key part of the humanities in general, but religious studies more particularly, is that it forces you to realize that you are like one of a billion people in this world and that we are really all connected to each other. And so anything that I'm learning about somewhere, even if it feels far away, whether it's far away in belief or far away geographically, it's something that I need to like take in and not just take in as like information from like the archive of my brain, but also like how does that impact what I believe about the world and how I practice my spirituality or even just my daily life. So I think, you know, I don't have like, or I guess if I was to get super concrete, it would maybe be like not interesting, overly niche, but like in general, it's, I would say that like studying religion academically is something that has like greatly influenced my beliefs in terms of finding similarities with other religions and also finding differences with other religions. And, and, and that kind of relationship of thinking about the thing I'm studying with myself as a way of like sharpening my own understanding of the thing I believe, being able to maybe put a little bit more of a contour around like, okay, I think this is the shape of my belief, you know, in contradiction to this sometimes, or in other ways in relation to like, okay. Yeah. So yeah. You talked earlier about how you went to your undergrad and kind of were met with people from all over. Actually, I think Penn is almost like one of the first places in my journey where that happens because I went to a Christian school in second grade to graduation. Then I went to Christian Bible college. Then most of my life was being surrounded by Christians and church planting. Like it was all Christian, Christian, Christian, Christian. And I mean, I have been out of that community for three years now, but even then I find that this is like the first place where I've been intentionally relating to people that think very, very differently than what I used to think and even how I think now. And one of the things I enjoy the most about the interfaith dialogue class and that whole space is almost like debunking some of the fears that were put in us or in me when I was younger. Like I remember a big conversation in the church was like, oh, don't send your kids to secular universities because they'll leave the faith. They'll meet people that think very differently and be influenced by them. But now I see why a lot of people really did leave the faith because you come to these spaces and you feel like, oh my goodness, these people that were made out to be like the boogeyman are actually amazing, beautiful people that love the world and love their God or love no God at all, but they're amazing, you know? And you come and you see that. And yeah, of course that challenges your assumptions about the world and your assumptions about your faith. And so it's been really cool to kind of to be in this space that was almost like made to look at like a villain in my upbringing and seeing how there are so many wonderful people who have such meaningful ways of looking at their lives, you know? And one of my best friends, she's an atheist and it's very comfortable with that. And we talk about it sometimes. And it's very interesting because we both really make meaning out of life in a very intentional way. And before that, to me, that was something that, oh yeah, atheists can make meaning out of life, you know? But obviously she does and it's very beautiful. And our friendship, I think it's one of the most spiritual friendships that I have, which is very interesting. But all that to answer, being in this environment has influenced my beliefs in almost affirming the steps that I took away from these closed beliefs that I had. And it's really affirmed that journey. And at the same time, it's also given me compassion for my old self and for people that are still believing what I would think is in a more closed manner and looking at the world through that lens. And yeah, I think being here just has allowed me to look at people in general with more compassion and more openness and just realizing. And you know, a big Christian doctrine is actually this idea of the image of God and how God created us and we are made in his image. Yeah, of course. It's in the Old Testament. And at the core of that doctrine, at the core of that belief is the worth and the beauty of humanity, you know? And I've been able to really experience that here at Penn, which is really nice. And yeah, so I'm very thankful for that. So both of you are sharing these experiences of meeting non-Christians, getting out of the evangelical bubble that you guys grew up in. Do you approach these situations? Do you leave these situations as a Christian? What is that word to you at that moment and this moment right now? And also feel free to get into this realm, too, of both of you started very deeply entrenched in one sect of Christianity and have been kind of seeing the world and the other faiths that are there. Has conversion ever crossed your mind? So kind of a two-parter. What is a Christian to you? How is that when you approach these situations? And what has conversion been in your head? Good question. Yeah, no big deal. We can almost work on it together, right? Yeah, totally. Yeah, we're going to need you. I can't do it on my own. Yeah, I mean, I'll start and feel free to jump in. Yeah, cool. I would say, I mean, a Christian means, like, it means like a follower of Christ, right? A little Christ. And you believe that Jesus, well, at least I believe that Jesus was divine in some way, you know? And that's one of those beliefs that I'm holding on very loosely now. Like, I don't even know kind of what to think. But to me, I think what's compelling about Christianity is the story of Christianity, of, you know, the world is beautiful. What do we call it? The story of creation, fall. Is there a name for that? I forget. I guess it's just the, yeah, I mean, the creation and fall story. Yes, but you kind of put the whole world in that framework, right? Like, God created the world, and then humanity fell. Who knows how that happened exactly? The Bible says something, but we don't know. And then there's a redemption, right? That's what Christ came to do, to redeem that through his life and death and resurrection. And then there's a, what we call, confirmation, right? So, and that's the end times, the idea that we talked about. And how, and again, that's something that I don't know, right? But I think being a Christian is having faith in that what Christ did, you know, what Jesus did somehow has some meaning. I think that's like, that's where I am now. That's where I am now. And to me, again, it's all very meaningful. Like, it helps me make sense of the world, right? Like, why do people do really messed up things, even though they're beautiful people? Again, it's creation, right? God created these beautiful human beings that are capable of so much beauty. But because of the fall, we're also capable of so much evil and so much harm to ourselves, to each other, to this world. But then this idea of redemption is like, and we see that in our world, right? We see these whispers of redemption, right? Where people are rehabilitated, where people are restored, where relationships are restored. And ultimately, my hope is that that will happen in a broader scale. And I think that's the story that I hold on to. And that's so meaningful to me. And that's why I still consider myself a Christian. And I don't know how... Yeah, yeah. I mean, I really like how you put that. And I don't just like, I think you're totally right about the kind of like foundation of the fact that the story is just, I think, such an important part to what it means to be a Christian. And also the way that, you know, as I've gotten older, further away from the kind of like evangelical upbringing I was raised under, and also just as somebody who studies religion, and in particular evangelicals, you know, but Christianity more broadly, like, I've come to realize, like, one of the greatest things I think about the story of Christianity, and this isn't exclusive, I'll say, like to Christianity as a faith, but just like how capacious the way you can interpret that story, these kinds of themes of redemption, or these kinds of redeemed, these kind of themes of consummation, or these themes of like God creating the world as a benevolent God, and creating things and loving and caring about those things and calling them good. You know, it says in the first chapter of Genesis that he saw that it was good, the stuff that he created, and that that's compelling, and you can interpret that into so many different things. This is actually something I really love about Judaism, is how like creative the interpretations of the texts are in Judaism, and I think it's something that Christianity at different moments has been resistant to for reasons that I don't need to get into, but like, you know, the point is that there are people within the Christian tradition who have interpreted it in really creative, innovative, and like beautiful ways, and I think in particular, like one tradition I found really compelling on the other side of evangelicalism is like the kind of liberation theologies, which began in South America in Catholicism, but also, you know, had a really vibrant tradition in Black Christianity during the Civil Rights Movement, and these kinds of ways of interpreting poverty struggle, the evil of the oppression of poverty as a kind of fall, and then the potential for redemption, and the way that communities like are able to locate the story of Christianity into their own experiences is like a beautiful thing, and something I'm really inspired by, and I think something that kind of keeps me close to the story as well, and I guess that's like how I think of Christian, or my relationship to Christianity, is that it's a story that like kind of hangs around me. I kind of find myself like thinking with it, thinking with the story, thinking alongside the story. It kind of keeps popping its head back up, and I think a big part of that's just because like that's how I grew up. Yeah, we can't run away from it. You can't. You really can't. Like it's a thing that I think, you know, in the years where I was trying really hard to run away from it for a second, it kind of kept just hanging around, because I realized how like influential it had been to me, and I think that's, you know, to the question of conversion. It's like I think, you know, I've never really been in a situation where I've been like, wow, I want to convert to this other religion, because I think the more kind of interfaith interactions I've had have been more like, wow, I really love like learning something from that tradition that you have, and I think it kind of connects, or relates, or can be incorporated into like this thing that I have. So, you know, yeah, so I guess I haven't really spent a whole lot of time thinking like, oh, I'm going to convert to this or that religion, but rather finding the kind of coherences between my, you know, spirituality and someone of a different faith and kind of getting creative there. Yeah, yeah, and I agree with that. For me, it goes back to this idea of not holding things so tightly anymore, that question about conversion. I don't have something super tight to convert from, you know, and I think that's why it's not something like, what would I convert to, and it's really seeing faith as this process of making meaning of the world, and how I can do that with my friend who is an atheist, who doesn't believe in God at all, and that's a really compelling thing. And so, yeah, I never really think about converting. I mean, I will say sometimes I do think like, hmm, well, maybe, you know, and my parents and people from my old life, they still pray for me, and they want me to return to that way of thinking. You know, that's their prayer for me, and it comes from a place of true love. Like, I know they love me, and they want what's best for me, and they really think that that's believing the way they believe is what's best for me. They really believe that. But even that, it just doesn't make sense to me anymore. You know, it just doesn't, my brain doesn't work like that anymore, and I don't think it's because I'm smarter at all. No, no. It's just, you know, this is the journey that I've been on, and the journey that we've been on moving forward. And I think, I've talked with some of my friends who have also kind of like shifted away from this more conservative version of Christianity, and a big part of our, you could say, training as Christians, you're talking about like doing your devotional every day. A big part of that is to ask big questions, and a big part of that is to look for answers, you know, and to search, to search for God, and to search for beauty. And I think that's what we're doing, and it's maybe taken us somewhere where they didn't really want it to take us, where they taught us that. But I think we're being faithful to that, and to that part of what we were taught, which is very interesting, I think. Wow. It seems that we've run a little bit long, and I'm going to have to wrap up, but I do just want to say on that final positive note, the search for beauty, it seems that you guys have really found really beautiful relationships through your struggles. And Diego, earlier when you mentioned how your dad wasn't so keen on you going to the ministry, but the community, and that was kind of the expectation there. I think many, many people would benefit from your spiritual guidance and the way you got there. And Sam, you mentioned the brilliance of the humanity that you learned that you're one of a billion people, and I think that you're one of these good ones. You have been able to really show the loneliness of faith, as well as the beauty that it can bring to people when they need it. So I just want to say thank you guys for joining here today, and for being religious people on this campus, able to share your wisdom with others. Thank you.