Chaplains

The speakers discuss their involvement with the religious community in Philadelphia and how it has influenced their roles at Penn. They mention their connections to different religious organizations and the importance of being connected to the larger community. They also encourage students to reach out and connect with different communities and take part in existing pipelines on campus. They discuss the changes in the religious community over the years, including more diversity and the presence of inter-religious students. They also mention the growing number of students who identify as atheists or humanists but still have an interest in spiritual matters. They reflect on their own experiences with faith at the university and express that they feel able to sustain and develop their core values. Alrighty, and we're back now, and Chad and Sana, I know that you guys are heavily involved with the greater Philadelphia community religious life, and I was hoping that you could kind of share a bit about that, about how your role at Penn has maybe influenced your ability to serve such a large community, and what that experience has been like for you. For me, I'm an affiliate minister at the First Unitarian Church in Philadelphia, which is in Center City, and a lot of staff, students, faculty members from Penn who identify as Unitarian Universalist attend that congregation, so it's a cool way to stay connected to the community here, as well as the extended Unitarian Universalist community. I think that has really helped me learn more about where people are coming from and what some of their needs are on campus, as well as their spiritual needs off campus. I've also been involved in the extended interfaith community, the Interfaith Philadelphia organization, and there's even some really amazing queer Muslim spaces outside of campus that are really important and sacred to people here, and I feel like when people can't find queer Muslim spaces on campus, they can find them in the extended community, and so it's become a really critical way for me to be connected. Yeah. Yeah, I'm an Episcopal priest, so I'm connected to the Episcopal Cathedral, which is near campus, and then I can ask to sort of just preach in different Episcopal churches and different churches in the area. I think our friends and colleagues off campus who are clergy in so many ways support what we do here, so when we talk about like a third-ish of Penn students being plugged into religious life, it's probably a bit bigger because there's students who sort of sneak off campus and go to congregations that we never know about, and they go every week, and they take a train or an Uber, or they walk. And they're not writing me, you know, saying, hey, by the way. Very rarely does a minister off campus say, hey, I got one of yours on campus, which is great, and Philly's a big, wonderful city that has every visual religion represented here, and that's just wonderful, you know. I think a lot of our neighbors want to partner with the university, too, usually in good ways, I think, and so it's another opportunity for us to plug in, not just with sort of congregations off campus, but schools, and businesses, and non-profits, and in a lot of ways, I think this is what makes Penn a little bit different from some of our peer institutions is, A, being in a major city, I think just Harvard and Columbia would sort of be similar in that, but two, the way we, it's such an important part of what we do is partnering to make the whole city better, and to get better made by the city, as well as sort of this two-direction thing, and that includes religious life, and so partnering with a congregation to care for West Philadelphia, to care for the unhoused in Cedar City, to care for individuals suffering after some type of natural disaster, there's a lot of cool partnerships with congregations that aren't necessarily part of the PRCC, or Penn Religious Community Council, but are in our orbit, and it's cool. So, if you guys have any advice or words of wisdom for students on campus who, like, personally, like, I grew up outside of New York, this is, these 40 years have been my only time in Philly, and I've loved it, but sometimes it's a little scary to try to reach out to a larger community, so any ideas of ways for religiously inclined students to seek new experiences, and so on and so forth? I mean, I think one of the ways that we really facilitate that is through our MLK events, which are really connected to the community, our MLK Day, but also, like, the week-long list of events that we have. We partner with local schools and communities to bring kids on campus, and are always looking for volunteers to help with supporting those events, but I think my advice would be to take a faithful step towards reaching out to communities that you're curious about, because I think, I've never felt like anyone has been unwelcoming to me when it comes to reaching out with curiosity and kindness, and I think my experience with the Philadelphia Religious Communities has been wonderful in that respect, because, you know, I think another thing I would say is reach out to us if you need help facilitating a connection with the community surrounding you. I think that, particularly for students for whom their faith is very important to them, they plug into something on campus, and that's wonderful. You know, this could be their club on campus. It could be, like, their congregation for their years at Penn, and that's beautiful. I think there's also something different about connecting with a temple or a congregation or a parish or something on campus, where not everyone is 18 to 22, where you can be with elders, you can be with kids, you can do some very different things in the community. It's hard to get there every week. I totally get that, but even if one's going once a month or every, like, few weeks, to have to kind of, like, play aunts and, like, play grandparents in there who can just love on you is great. It's great. I think that's the first thing. The other thing I would say is to plug into the pipelines that already exist on campus, whether it's academically-based community service courses, Netter Center, other spots that are already doing a lot of really cool stuff in the community, to bring one's full self as a religious spiritual being to that space. So if one is doing actual tutoring or some other program, like, don't be afraid to wear kippah, don't be afraid to wear hijab, don't be afraid to sort of wear a religious signifier out there, because you never know who the kids might want to, the kids might be there, too, so. Yeah, that's a nice note. Back to, kind of, like, the student body and the religious vibes that I was saying on campus, starting with seven years, seventh-year here, and Chad is 29, how has the religious community shifted? Do you think there have been large changes in how people practice religion and how the communities practice religion on campus? I do. I think numbers have changed a little bit for certain populations for certain reasons. I think a couple kind of anecdotal things that I think our peers at other IBs would say, too, you have more students who identify in more than one tradition. So I think the kind of advent of a lot of inter-religious marriage over the last 30 years, not a lot, but more, you have students who are not having to choose between being Jewish and Catholic, but are going to mass and shabbat services, who are both Buddhist and Christian, who are UU and Muslim, and I think those kids used to be like a unicorn 20 years ago, and it's like, wow, it's kind of like a, and now it's not very uncommon. I think you sort of see more diversity across the board. There are more students of, there are more, sort of, black students at Hillel, there are more black students in Newman Center, there are more white students in the MSA. I think just, it's changed a little bit over time. There are more queer students in a lot of our religious groups than there were, certainly when I was a student, and I think all of that is progress. You have many more women who are in leadership positions in these student groups, which I think is also great and a sign of the times, that's happening now. I would add, I think there is much more kind of cross-club engagement than there was in the 80s and 90s, which I think is progress and exciting, too. And then on your screen, how is Penn Jewish World different from being in George Mason and Harvard and all the places that you've learned as well? That was a different question. That was Harvard? That's all I'm saying. So I, well, Harvard is, you know, is different, because Harvard was founded as a divinity school, and then it became a university, and so for them, they have a giant memorial church in the middle of their campus, and their spiritual, religious life looks much different on campus with a divinity school present, too. I think here, it's cool, like, how dispersed some of the religious, spiritual communities are, and, you know, thinking about how long they've been here, too, like, the Newman Center is over 100 years old, so I was over 200 years old or something like that, it's like, yeah, so like, these communities have been here for a while, and so I think that is something that's really notable and different from how they show up at spaces like George Mason and Harvard. And I agree with all the ways that, you know, Chaz talked about all the different shifts that have happened religiously, and I think one of the big things that I'm also noticing is the growing body of students who identify as atheists or humanists, and who still have an interest in being involved in spiritual community or talking about spiritual stuff, but identify in a way that you wouldn't necessarily think of as people that would be engaged with our office. So I've had a joy in being able to join alongside them and learn more about where they're coming from and how we can provide support for them. Yeah, religious nuns. Religious nuns, yeah. Now, taking a shift a bit towards more of your own journeys in faith and your own relationships with faith, do you feel that this university is a place where you can sustain, develop, and act on your core values, religious or not? It's a hard question. I mean, I think I'd answer it in two ways. I think personally, yeah. I mean, I think I've never felt personally restrained in my own devotion and my own beliefs and an ability to worship freely and kind of pray freely. And I think being a chaplain, like, we can kind of move a little bit differently. I think people, it's not weird to see us praying in the cafeteria. Like, other students may feel a little more nervous about that. I think people know, like, this is what we do. I think that the love for me is when my personal ethics, beliefs, faith may differ from some of the institution's investments, for example, or actions. And that's hard. I think it's not hard in the sense of it doesn't feel existential. I believe different things from what the U.S. does in general. My faith leads me to be a pacifist. I hate when our country goes to war. I still love America. I live here. This is home. And I don't feel broken when our country differs from that. I think similarly, it's with Penn. I love Penn deeply. You spend enough time here. I spend enough time. I don't know much different. And there's definitely some things I would do very differently. I mean, particularly around, like, the environment and stuff like that. I think if I was, if my hand was on the steering wheel, I would probably do something a little bit different. Are you talking environment in terms of, like, culture, climate? Climate and things like that. I think around costs and, like, all that kind of stuff, I think I would do. But I don't feel like that's impeding on my belief. I think it's still, like, Penn's just not listening to a whole lot of us who feel a certain way. Yeah, similarly, I don't feel like I am limited or restricted in engaging what I believe. And I can show up as my whole self in many ways. I think, you know, it would be a lie to say that there aren't some ways that we have to engage the community that are, quote unquote, you know, diplomatic, right? And so that's always something that's on my mind in terms of knowing when to say what I need to say and living up to my morals and values, too. And also being able to hold space for many different types of perspectives. I think we kind of, as chaplains, live in the in-between, holding space for a lot of different types of complexity on campus. And that's a challenging space to be in sometimes. But I am really deeply rooted in my morals and values to a point where I don't feel like I am so restricted that it's a process. I mean, I would add, I recognize that there are students and colleagues who sometimes do feel like they can't bring their full self to every situation on campus. I think a phrase I've thought about a lot this last year is, Penn is not an island. And it's been particularly hard to be Jewish and Muslim, Israeli, Arab, Palestinian in the world the last 18 months. 500 years, I think. And so I think some of our students and colleagues have felt that here, too, where they wonder of, should I maybe put a hat on over my kippah? Should I tuck my Star of David necklace in? Maybe I don't want to broadcast that I'm Muslim right now. Should I wear a kathiyah out of fear of being doxed, out of fear of being harassed, out of fear of being interviewed about what's your position on Israel and God's will? And so the way that people conflate those religions with the global situation has made it very hard to be them. I think there's some Christians who would say something similar in conflation with evangelicalism and Trumpism at a predominantly liberal campus. A lot of kids who wear crosses feel like people look at them like, oh, so you vote for Trump, so you're this, so you agree with this, you're this. Again, I think that's not necessarily because of Penn. I think that's because of situations in the world right now. And yet, I don't want to act like it's easy being religious in the world and at Penn right now. I think it's important not to name that. Yeah, seriously. And you guys spend clearly a lot of your time working with students and helping them talk through difficulties in their lives and maybe adding some religious light to it. But I was hoping to hear kind of how faith has played a role in your life challenges. And if you're willing to share an example of maybe a tough moment that you found God there, you didn't find God there, but you got a lot by your faith in that moment. Okay. Gotta think about this. Yeah, I understand that. I mean, I think, you know, I lost my parents growing up. And I mean, psychologically, there's a lot that happens to like an orphan, you know. And what it does to their kind of personality and even religious observance. I think a lot of other orphans that I've known have sort of gone to extremes, whether that's like, how could a good God let something like this happen? I don't believe anymore. Let's gotta deal with it all. Let's go. Or like a deep devotion to God as parent and a deep intimacy with the divine, because I don't have that here on campus. So I guess, you know, my relations with my faith and broadly with the divine, I think, has gotten me through those very hard personal times. I would add like the really hard seasons we've had on campus. It's been friendships and loved ones, my spouse, my kids, but particularly my faith that got me through last year, which was among the hardest years we've had on campus. And the year before that, which was like top three hard years on campus, COVID, we lost a whole lot of students in the kind of early 2000s here on campus. Like it was leaning on my faith journey and trusting that God could bring something from the hell we were going through. And the kind of hope that our religious Christians give us that change is possible and that new life comes on the other side of it. Yeah, I think for me, I have a younger brother that was deported. He was the only one out of the five of us that didn't get his citizenship in the U.S. After going through the green card process, the legal route everyone's talking about. And so I think just being in that space of like having to witness him being in a detention center and then deported was definitely a challenging place to be as a spiritual religious person. And I think it was the ways that people came and supported us, the ways that Unitarian Universalists were supporting me in that moment really helped. I think essentially community, right? Community care that was really important to me and how I stayed connected to who I was as a spiritual person. I think that it definitely led me down the path of like deepening my spirituality through scripture, through stories, through stories of resilience that show up in our traditions. And I think the one story that I really hold on to and I feel like I preach on it too much is the story of Hagar and how she shows up in Islamic stories as being the person that founded Mecca eventually and went through a journey where she was abandoned in the desert with her son, moving between valleys and mountains, searching for resources and support. And then eventually an angel comes and creates a well for her and her son. And in the Muslim story, there's a whole thing around how people start finding the well and she negotiates water rights with them essentially and how to use that resource. And then develops a large community around that well. And I think that is a story of resilience of an ancestor that I hold on to. Thanks for sharing that one. Good one. And kind of in wrapping up, just curious what kind of words you guys might want to share with religious students on campus, with non-religious students on campus who may be struggling on their religious journey. I know often you guys are saying like time for visuals or places where you'll speak publicly. You'll have the opportunity to address a lot of people, but sometimes it seems that those things have, you're there to speak towards certain issues. So I'm hoping this opportunity to kind of give you guys the floor and share a bit of advice that you would want to impart on students looking for it. I think I would say, I would encourage students to focus on the importance of cultivating their inner lives as well. You know, I think students do a pretty good job taking care of themselves physically. I think academically they are taking care of their sort of like professional selves. I think we do a pretty good job mentally on campus too. And that's sort of in life. But I think there's something else that's different than our brain and different than our bodies. I think there is something within, you can call it your heart or soul or spirit. I think it's something that needs to be cared for and grown and worked. Maybe that's their moral lives. But to make sure that our students are thinking about that too, I think is, it's something that I think we often, the message I think a lot of students get is the goal of life is to be successful, is to win. To have the most money, titles, trophies, spouse, house, safety, all that kind of stuff. And you got it. And that's not it. That's, that can be very hollow. And certainly that without an inner journey, I think will evaporate and will kind of stick to your fingers. I think that's the first message. I think I would also encourage students to be brave. I think it's one of the marks of America right now is we are a very fearful nation. And it's clouded all of our decisions. And I think I would encourage students to try to be brave in the face of a range of fears. And courage, I think often leads to joy and love. So be cautious and wise, but be brave. Along the same lines, I think I've seen so many students struggling with pen face and comparing themselves to others and just being really hard on themselves. And I, you know, I often advise them to think, what would you tell a friend who is being really hard on themselves? How would you treat them with grace and compassion? And now talk to yourself that way, right? And that some of this is, you know, training, right? Practice of being compassionate and graceful with yourself. And I'm learning some of the ways that we're being hard on ourselves. I think that's really important for this time. And there are resources on campus to help with that. Helping train some of the peer-to-peer pen wellness folks on spiritual wellness and how to talk about spiritual wellness, but also how to be kind to ourselves in this moment. And I feel like they are really amazing resources for students who are looking to talk to other students around this kind of thing. Thanks for pointing those out. So kind of to wrap up, I just wanted to thank both of you guys for coming and sharing your wisdom. I know personally I'm one of many students who have been able to share your words in various spots and feel comforted and feel brave and feel supported on this community. So on behalf of all those students who have heard you while they're standing in the back of the crowd at some sort of gathering, I've appreciated your words. I just want to say thank you guys so much for your role here on campus. Thanks for all you've done to build up religious life on campus. Thank you so much for your leadership on campus. Thank you guys. Bye.