Ep. 9

Justin Bajarjo, aka Dr. VR, invites listeners to register for his podcast. He interviews Carol Silverman, an award-winning VR developer and director of the interactive VR piece "Belongings." Carol discusses her background as a set decorator and her transition to VR. She explains how she was introduced to VR by her partner and became fascinated by its storytelling potential. She talks about her motivation for creating "Belongings," which tells the story of a young girl in a Nazi internment camp. Carol also discusses her experience working on the VR piece as part of her Master of Fine Arts program and the significance of the title "Belongings." Hello everyone, my name is Justin Bajarjo and I am Dr. VR. I invite you to register to my podcast to stay updated with new episodes. When they are published, simply hit the register link on Dr. VR's channel as well as the bell icon next to it to be notified. And for this ninth episode, I have the pleasure of having Carol Silverman, who is an award-winning VR developer and most importantly, the director of the interactive VR piece, Belongings, which we're going to discuss today. Hi Carol and welcome to Dr. VR. Hi Justin, it's great to be here. Thank you. Well, thank you for accepting the invitation. I'm very happy to have you. Before we start, can you tell us a bit more about your professional background? Well, I've worked as a set decorator for film and television for many years, mostly in New York. I did one small movie in Prince Edward Island. Oh, not too far. No, well, it's sort of far from everything. It is. But it's really beautiful there. I really had a good time. And yeah, I've been doing that for a really, really long time. Before that, I worked in theater. And theater is where I started. I worked on Broadway. Just worked on a lot of different things, always around gathering and dressing and combining objects to tell a story. Because at the end of the day, set decorating is storytelling. Absolutely. It is. It is. So I made sure I did some research. You know, as being a researcher myself, I made a couple of research online and I figured out you're a four-time Emmy Award-winning set decorator for film and television. That is quite an amazing career. You have worked on very prestigious shows that I personally love. So I was like, whoa, okay. This is very big. Shows like Boardwalk Empire, my favorite shows of the past two years, and Just Like That. I really love this show. Oh, I do. I do. Saturday Night Live and feature films that I enjoyed very much, such as Prime, a film I really enjoyed with Uma Thurman, and Two Lovers. Very great movie. And also a very nostalgic film of my childhood, Money Train, with Woody Harrelson and Wesley Snipes. I didn't do that much on Money Train. I was only... They did a lot of reshoots on that film and I just worked on like the very last one, doing a little bit of dressing on that. Well, still, your name's in the credits. So I was really impressed with that. So can you tell us what, how, and when that call or inspiration to turn to a digital creator, VR creator, came to your mind? Well, I could be honest and tell you that it would not have occurred to me. And I would have thought it was like something for kids or just for people who are into gaming. But my partner went to work for HTC doing mobile and about 12 years ago. And then when they started doing VR and building the Vive, he went into that division and he just started showing it to me. I dismissed it. And he started showing me all the experience. He showed me the blue. He showed me Tilt Brush. And, you know, some people, when you... Some people, when they see VR, they're amazed by it and they're like, wow, this is amazing and really cool. And I love to see it, but I'm not interested in going further. You know, I mean, you've shown it to people and they're thinking it's really cool and exciting and that's it. And then other people are like, wow, I have to know about this. I have to know everything about this. And I have to take it apart and make something. And that's how I felt about it. Just like, this is amazing, how can I do it? Yeah, that's a wonderful way to be introduced to this amazing medium. I prefer calling it a medium rather than technology because I feel like technology goes, comes and goes and keeps evolving. But when it comes to a media, and I really think that VR really is a media now, and I'm glad you were struck by it and that you brought your talent, raw talent to the medium. And I thank you very much for this. And speaking of which you released in 2021, the interactive Peace Belongings, which tells the story of a young girl sent to a Nazi internment camp and later brought to safety. And the story is told through a narrative triggered by interactions, something I really appreciated, triggered by interactions with her personal belongings, and the story of the title of your piece. And can you please explain to us the motivations behind the creation of this piece and what attracted you to turn it into VR? Well, on a side note, the day that people were deported from my mother's region of Germany was October 22nd, 1940, which was just about a week ago. The 83rd anniversary of that day was last week, which kind of gives me a chill. I know, this is special. Thanks for bringing this up. So my mother inspired the story because she was a survivor, but I didn't know that my entire life. And my brother and I found a whole bunch of documents and photos, many of which are in belongings, after she died. And I just thought about that story sometimes more, sometimes less, and then he was thinking about it and I wasn't really thinking about it. And then just sort of, I don't know, I just thought about it so much that should I make a movie about it? Should I make a documentary? There are a lot of Holocaust stories in the world and I think there are a lot of ones that aren't known and every person who was affected by it has their own story. There's just so many different ones. And I thought about writing a book, I thought about making a movie, and it just did not feel right. None of those things felt right to me. I feel like I would have started. If that was what I wanted to do, I would have done it. And then when I found out about VR, the medium of VR, and being a person who thinks about storytelling in terms of objects and thinking of a set, like when you dress a set, it's there for the duration of shooting, right? You could take six months to build a big set like Chalky's Club in Boardwalk Empire, right? That took months. Or, you know, something that you dress for a day, like on Saturday Night Live. You get one day, you have to do the whole, whatever it is, you do the whole thing, and then it's done. And then it disappears and it's gone and it lives on, on tape or on film, forever. But the thing is gone. So for me, to have a set that endures forever, where the set is the experience, the audience is inside the set, in three dimensions instead of viewing the set on a screen in two dimensions, all of that is what I thought about in making, and why did I want to make this in VR? And so this is a story I wanted to make. I found out about a medium that appealed to me to make it in, and so that's how it kind of came together. And it's really hard to get started on a VR piece because it's a lot of work. And it's like, we'll do it tomorrow, I'll do it next week, I'll do it whenever. So I found out about a Master of Fine Arts program at the School of Visual Arts in New York City, just by coincidence. It's visual narrative. And so I actually applied to that program because they allow you to make your thesis in any medium. It's not a program for VR, it's just a program of visual narrative. So I applied to it and I said, I want to do my thesis in VR from the beginning, from when I applied. And they were like, sure, whatever, have fun. So I learned a lot of other things, too, about story that made my piece better, I think. And making this exact story as my first VR piece was not my intention. But as I worked through the program and I got to planning my thesis, I was like, this is what it has to be. This is a story that, this is my first story that I want to tell with this piece. So that's kind of the genesis of it. And then the title, Belonging, applies to both physical belongings and the idea of belonging. Because for all of the Jewish people in Europe, their sense of belonging to a society was taken away with the Holocaust. I mean, that's like a really basic thing. The Jews in Germany, their citizenship was revoked, legally, twice. There were two different laws which revoked their citizenship. So that's a big sense of belonging that's lost. And also, in, I think, pretty much any society throughout history, the things that you own, your belongings, signify your belonging to a group. It could be an economic group, a social group, your car, your washing machine, keeping up with the Joneses. Your belongings are what make you belong. So it's all of those things. That's very interesting. So, as I'm able to understand, belongings was actually part of your research creation process for your MA. Basically, it was your creation project for the end of your studies, the end of your research. So, what was it like to work in virtual reality in an academia context? The program is, it's more of an art school. The School of Visual Arts is, it's more of a, they have fine arts programs, but it was started by commercial artists, by illustrators and cartoonists, as almost a trade school. So, but it does have a lot of fine arts as well, but it has more of an art school, kind of a, that's what it is, rather than very academic. I think maybe your program is more academic. A little bit of both. Just fully as a medium, and not looking at, like there were people in my class doing graphic novels, and we learned about the history of graphic novels, the history of comics, which I did not know. Oh, that's cool. I'm very happy to know those things now. Of course. How did your department, your university, reacted for one of their students to work on virtual reality? Was it a first? Was it something they were not used to work with? It's a very new program. I think they're only on maybe their, I think we were the sixth graduating class, and one person had done it before. Okay. But they kind of, I mean, they were super happy to have somebody do something in another medium. My class was very diverse in terms of having, we had stop motion animators, traditional animators, a documentary filmmaker, graphic novelist, which is different from comic book writers. Of course. So a children's book. So there was more of a wide variety, so it fit in a little bit better than some years where they have mostly illustrators. They're trying to broaden their focus. That's great. So very diverse. Your experience heavily relies on interactions, which are, of course, elements that are deeply connected to VR, and also it involves six degrees of freedom, so which gives users the possibility to move and walk around in the virtual environment. How was it like to work with, you know, VR technologies, mechanics, 360 environments, haptics, six degrees of freedom, and how did you approach them? Well, having my partner work for HTC, I got to see a lot, a lot of work, more than maybe a casual enthusiast coming into it in 2015, where there was not a lot of content really out there, and there's still not as much as you would think, maybe, but there really wasn't that much. So I went to Tribeca. We went to Sundance. I got to see a lot of pieces, and as soon as you start experiencing a lot of VR, you see what's great about it and what it has that nothing else has, which is that you're in a real space, and you can move around, and you can have things happening all around you. You know, you have all this opportunity, these affordances that people say, right? And I feel disappointed when I watch something, and everything is in front of me. Like, I think a lot of people are coming from film, and that's sort of the way they think about things, and I think when you're directing something in VR, you have to let go of the traditional film directorial impulse of controlling what the viewer is seeing and having complete control over your audience and just let that go, because it just doesn't serve as well in three dimensions. So maybe if your story is all over here, and somebody looks back there, they missed part of the story. So I wanted to make a story that could happen in 360 to give the viewer the opportunity to just be in the space and interact with that space completely, where I've given them some direction. You know, they have to pick up things, but they can pick up whatever they want, because I also hate that. I hate when you're in a room of stuff, and you're trying to pick stuff up, and you can't. That's the same for me. Why is it here? Or when things will glow, like, pick this up now. Okay. It's going to do something. Like, I don't know. Let me do it. I like that approach. That's exactly what I'm working on, actually. The freedom of action is something that I really appreciate in virtual reality, and it's something that your piece really focuses on, and it's something I really appreciated. And Belongings devotes a lot of attention to items, of course, and they can be picked up, like you said. We are not prompted to pick specific items that are being highlighted. You can hold them close, and experience them. Some of them start narration. Some of them start video. I know you come from a set decoration background in film and television. So is this a coincidence, or has your professional experience influenced the making of your piece? I think that it's kind of a layer above that, which is that who I am and what I like kind of influence what I do. So then, in turn, that influences what I make. I also am a painter, and I make very tactile paintings. Like, I like things that are tactile. And I like to pet things, and this is my water box. Very tactile. Very, yes. Yeah, I like to touch things. I like to have my work be a thing that you want to touch. I could tell you later a thing that I want to work on. It's very tactile. And in set decorating, I mean, honestly, anything. I love objects. I love things that are different, and beautiful, and handmade, and have a lot of detail. And those things tell a story, and those are the things that I wanted to show people things, because I also wanted them to think about their own things. There are so many objects that people own that they just take for granted. There's just this flood of things that people have now, and all the decluttering, and getting rid of things, and things sparking joy. Well, what sparks joy, and why? And who owns what, and what do they do with it when they're gone? That's another thing. It's like, all of these things came down to me. What do they mean to me? What am I going to do with them? And by turn, every person has had this experience with someone they love, passing on, and what you do with their things. Carol, as I noticed when experiencing your piece, the items that are displayed in Belongings are not 3D scanned. These items appear to be photographed from different sides, so most of them are rectangular shapes, from left, top, bottom, right. Why that choice? Is it an aesthetic choice? Is it a technical decision? Can you tell us more about that? It was absolutely a particular aesthetic choice. When I first started, I did think about either using models, or scanning all the objects. Or also, I thought of modeling them in Blender, or having someone model them for me, so they could be these exact things. But I mean, it's sort of funny, when I was kind of white boxing it, to work on the setup of the set, I just realized that the boxes themselves tell a story of that it's not just a teapot. It's this teapot that belonged to this person who felt this way about it because of how they used it. And now, it belongs to another person who has more associations with it. So the box represents the life of the object, and all of the memories and experiences that are attached to it. So that's what it's meant to signify. And what I've noticed is that new users, people who haven't done VR before, catch on to that immediately. It doesn't say placeholder to them. Because to some people who are developers or in tech field, a box says placeholder. But to people who aren't doing that, a box doesn't say anything except that they can see what it is, and they understand that that's what it means. That's a very interesting take on this, because I've never seen anything like it before. And I'm glad there is a meaning behind it. I don't even know how they got here. I have a whole, I have all these things from my great-grandmother that I don't know how they made it to the United States. I guess her uncle and aunt brought them. But I don't know. I would love to have known. Because I thought you weren't allowed, I thought the Jews were not allowed to take their valuables. I thought the Germans kept them. But they somehow were here. Yeah, with that story you're telling me, I wouldn't even call them valuables. I would call them treasures, honestly. Because you don't know how they were brought to you, to America, and now you discover them. You open this, you know, treasure chest, and you discover all of these wonderful treasures from a person you thought you knew very well, but you just come across discovering so many different things. And us viewers, of course we don't know your mother, but I feel like we're discovering your mother's life through, just as you discovered her, and that makes it even more interesting. So, yeah, you were going to say something? I just, I think, to say that I made it up maybe sounds a little flip, but I guess I'm telling myself the story I wanted her to tell me. Yeah. And your VR experience is also very interesting in so many different ways, but what is most striking to me is how the environment shifts forward in time while picking key items. And that was very interesting because as I was in the experience, I wanted to stay a bit longer in that specific time, specific era, and sometimes I was hesitating, thinking that this item would shift me, would flash forward me in time, you know? And, but it was fun. It was very interesting. So, can you tell us more about the choice of these items? Well, it doesn't. None of the items influence the time at all. Oh, okay. So, it's just a process. It's just after a while, time. It times out. Each chapter is timed. Wow. And how did you make up the time? How did you come up with a certain duration for each segment? Well, it was by kind of playing around with it and also a minute, like a minute film or just a minute is a surprisingly long time. So, between the timings of the voiceovers and just being in that space, I think it's like two or three minutes in each chapter, I think. I thought it was more, but I believe you. I don't think it's more than three. I'd have to look exactly, but we played around with it. Yeah, you, well, that's part of it, is that you can pick up anything you want, but you cannot stop time, just like life. Exactly. So, you have a specific amount of time and you can interact with whichever thing you want in a time duration, in a specific duration. That makes it even more interesting and that makes me want to go back to make sure I interact with everything. So, I like the replayable value of your experience. So, your experience covers an entire lifetime, your mother's lifetime. We have the chance of learning more about her childhood, her teenagehood, also her sufferings during and after the Holocaust. So, the rebuilding of her life in the U.S., her children's upbringing, a very full life. And how do you show an entire life in VR? Well, I chose to kind of divide it into periods that made sense to me, right? There's the before, right? Her childhood before she gets deported. And then I kind of put together coming to New York and up through young adulthood before she gets married. That's all one chapter. And then getting married, having children, kind of growing into herself, starting to make ceramics, which was a really huge part of her life, making art. That's another chapter. And then just being a mature person with children that are growing up and really devoting herself to her artwork. And then kind of the last chapter where she's mastered her artwork, but then is also going into decline. Yeah. So, that was kind of how I divided it up. Because those are the important parts of her life. Someone else might have a different way that you would think of their lives. True. Towards the later part, more towards the earlier part. And you did it very well. I was very impressed and touched with the way you approached it. And it's something I never experienced in VR, you know, a whole lifetime in VR. It is something you see in film a lot. But in film you have, you know, two hours, sometimes three to cover an entire lifetime. But in VR, like you say, you can't spend, well, you can't spend an hour, two hours in VR, but you're going to feel dizzy at some point. And the way you did it was very good. But before jumping forward, your mother was an artist. And you even show her work in a VR piece that you made. And it was very, very well rendered. So, I'm curious because she used to be a sculptor. She sculpts things. She paints. She does a lot of things, which is something you do as well. Were you aware of her artistic past while, you know, starting your own career in a similar type of fashion? Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah. She made ceramics in our basement for 25 years. She had a whole studio down there. And she did sell a lot of work, but I have a lot of her, obviously because it's in the piece. Yeah, I have a great amount of her artistic output here. And I'm glad that you... So much more that I didn't even put in the piece. Yeah, and I'm glad you exhibit some of them in your experience, much like an online exhibition, you know, in VR. And it's something I really appreciated. So, like you mentioned previously, you mentioned your mother's decline. And we also, you know, witness her gradual decline into Alzheimer's disease. And this is something that deeply moved me and brought me back when my grandmother's battle with dementia. And I don't know why, but I tend to find it a bit easier to show this decline from a family member's point of view in films, for instance. I'm thinking of Away From Her. That's a great film, great Canadian film we have here. Rather than from the person who actually lives it, because we are not in that person's mind, you know. But however, I think you did an amazing job describing how your mother has felt when she experienced the decline. And it's very subtle. And it's at the end of your experience. So, can you please tell us about your creative process in regards to this facet of your piece? Well, thank you very much for saying that. I really appreciate it. My pleasure. Because I was afraid it was too subtle. Oh, it's perfect. Oh, okay. Oh, great. Thanks so much. I can't watch any of those movies. They just make me too upset. Yeah, I wanted the viewers to have that sense of like, because this just really happens a lot, where the person is at their greatest maturity and they feel confident about life. And then this happens. And it starts, I mean, I will never forget the time when I realized this was going on with my mom. It was a phone conversation where my brother was working in London. And she was asking me if she could write to him at his phone number or send him mail at his, if she could send him mail at his phone number or call him at his address. And we're going around and around and around. She kept asking me to read out the phone number and then saying, so I can mail him there and then read out the address and saying, so I can call him there. And it just, we went on and on and on. And I'm like, this, this is not good. Like, this is, this is it. This is happening right now. And it kind of went on from there. So, so just from observing her and the way she was, the way she acted, the things she said, that's, that's where it came from. It is. I'm just curious, why do you say you can't watch these movies because they make you upset? Is it because they make you emotional or is there a certain aspect about these films that trigger you? Movies about people with dementia? Yeah, they make me really, really upset. And they just take me right back there. I will still, if I talk about my poor mom too long, I will cry. I still cry. She died over 25 years ago. Yeah. Still hurts, I'm sure. But like, as you were describing your mother's decline, you know, it's very subtle. You know, it happens gradually. And I'm sure it happened before that moment when you noticed it. But it's very subtle, just like how your experience shows it to users. Yeah, no, of course, of course it is. And that's why I connected a lot with that, with your entire piece, of course, but with that slow ending, slow decline, you know, a slow fate, not to black, but a slow fate to white in this case. And I think you just did it beautifully. And yeah, I think you should not change anything regarding that ending. It's very powerful. Great. Oh, great. Thank you so much. Oh, you're welcome. So the Holocaust is, I'm sure, quite challenging to deal with from an artistic standpoint. Something I experienced in the past, the Anne Frank House VR experience, did an amazing job showing people a vital part of it. How did you approach the subject, Holocaust history in your piece? Well, and I do like that Anne Frank piece as well. I like it a lot. I discuss about it in my dissertation. Yeah, it's really, it's a very good one. Um, well, I didn't, I did not want the piece to be just a Holocaust experience. And it is only part of her life. But it casts a shadow on her whole life. And I know that it's not scientifically proven. But I believe that sometimes people who want to forget things develop dementia. That that's some part of their lives that they just want to forget. So I feel like it's almost an arc through her life. And it's odd that I certainly felt the effect that it had on her. She was very fearful and untrusting throughout her life, fearful of getting on planes, going anywhere, strangers. She didn't have a lot of friends. And now I realize that she was just kind of waiting in case someone was going to come take her away again, which I didn't know. And in the piece, I say, and she tells her baby, don't tell her, tell anyone you're Jewish, which she did tell me. And I didn't ask why. I just said, OK, all right, I won't. So I believe that if someone wants to tell a story that includes the Holocaust, I guess it depends on your piece. For me, I want to just keep it to the personal story of what happened to her. It's her story, and this is what happened to her. And there's plenty of research that anyone can do about gores, about that episode of October 22, where they just came and got everyone and took them to gores. You know, it's all kind of out there, and that's what happened to her. I think that's the most successful, to keep to that and not say anything else about all of the other stories that are not mine to tell. True. That's very humble of you to say, I have to say. And I absolutely agree with you. Now, in a more broader context, what do you consider to be a successful VR experience? Because I know you've made a lot. You've done a lot. You experienced a lot of them. So, yeah, what do you consider to be a successful VR experience? Well, I mean, I do think using the full space you have access to. Yeah. I cannot say I haven't seen things that I thought were good and successful, where the action wasn't mostly in front of you. But in the whole, on the whole, I think the more you can take advantage of this, why wouldn't you as an artist? And I think interactivity is really important. Having a sense of presence. I mean, these are just, and I've heard, Kent talks about it all the time. I've heard a lot of other people talk about it all the time. Kent By. Of course. I'm sure you know him. Oh, yeah. He's always talking about the user's sense of presence, the user's sense of agency. Like, I wanted to make a story where the viewer's going to come in, and they're not going to, they're going to feel like they have a reason to be there. The story isn't going to happen unless they do something. Yeah, well, that's what VR is all about. Presence, you know? Right. The contrary of passivity, you know? Being an active, actively present. Yeah. Leaning forward experience. Exactly. Leaning back and being told to. Yeah, I wanted people to discover it. So that's what I think is really exciting. All those things, and that was my goal. And you also mentioned a lot, you also discussed a lot about freedom of action earlier on, you know? Not being prompted to interact with things that are being highlighted to you. That you feel forced to do something in a VR experience. Can you tell us a bit more about this? I guess it feels redundant. Like something that I learned at school, that if it's done well, you don't notice. But like, say, in a graphic novel, or a children's book, or anything that's illustrated, the pictures don't match the words. It's not like, it was a sunny day, and then you have the place, and it's sunny. The line would be something. You have to have the images and the words to tell the story. You can't just illustrate the words, because then it's not really a picture book. If you could take one or the other away, then you don't need it. Does that make sense? If you have a comic book, and you're just illustrating the things they say, then you can just have a book. You don't need the pictures. Just like a, yeah, please, go ahead. To me, the equivalent in VR is saying, I'm telling the story, and you have to pick up this now to continue telling the story. And then it's just a device, and it's an add-on, and it's not part of the story. It's just a device for telling the story. It doesn't add anything. It doesn't have a narrative purpose. And I feel that if you're telling a story, everything in the story has to have a narrative purpose. And in VR, you have all of these elements that you have so many that you can use to advance your narrative. So if you're using an object in that way, then why? Yeah. And also, what I think is a VR experience makes sense when the user, the creator, sorry, the developer, feels like no other medium will be able to tell the story they want to tell. Like you previously said, it didn't feel right to make it into a film or something, but VR seemed like the medium that felt right for what I had to tell. So I think that's how a VR piece should be made, just like a video game, or like a film, or a book, a novel. I think you should lean into it. Like whatever you pick, use all the tools that you can. And I mean, I'm sure you see Masi tons of things too. Of course. And a lot of them, you just wonder, this really could have been a film. Yeah, exactly. Or when you play a video game, or you put on a film and you're like, I think it would have made more sense if it was made into VR. Sometimes. Sometimes it might. How did you approach your VR experience? Did you approach it as a documentary, as an experimental piece, an interactive film, a video game, or maybe something else entirely? Definitely not as a documentary. Actually, the other medium that I think VR has the most kinship with is theater, as much as really more than film. I think theater. And I did start out in theater, and I love theater. And sometimes when I even go in, when I go into the line, I feel like I'm almost in a play. And my part is to pick up boxes. I guess the way I approach it is story first. What is the story that I want to tell? And then just editing and editing and refining it to make sure that every element is telling the story. Because I think it doesn't matter what medium you're working in. If you don't have a good story, it's not interesting. And I don't know. Why are you doing it if you don't have a story? And a story can keep people interested if you're telling it. It doesn't matter how you tell it if it's good. Does that make sense? Of course, but it's also a speculative story, like you mentioned. Again, you mentioned made up, but not really. And you bring theater to it. It sounds a little bit experimental to me, in a way. How do you feel about that? Yeah, I mean, sure. Yeah, you could totally call it that. Because you're bringing so many different interesting things together. But it's not a documentary, like you said. It's not an interactive film either, because it's a speculative experience. So it's very unique. Your piece is very unique, which makes it so enjoyable. And I also found your experience to be very liberating, in the sense that you give people, again, the freedom to pick whichever items they want to interact with. And the most incredible part is that almost every item has its own story. Speculative story, again. However, I noticed when you experience it, that some specific items trigger your certain memories. And I'm just curious, because you're giving so much freedom to your users, how much freedom of action do you think a VR experience should have in a VR experience? Because you've made so many. You have documentaries. You have entertainment. You have interactive films. You have a unique piece like yours. And like you say, some things are highlighted for you to do or not. So what do you think? How do you think freedom of action should be approached, like in VR? Well, I think I'm always going to go for the most interaction possible. But I also am always going to say story first, because some stories don't support. Some stories that would be effectively told in VR may not support that level of interactivity. So I think you have to kind of think of it in terms of your story. I don't know. There was a piece I just saw in Venice that had a good amount of interactivity. It was completely different from Belongings. It's like sort of movements the player has to make. And they just come at certain key moments in the story so that it's advancing the story. So I think you just have to, sometimes you don't need that much in an experience. It's where it advances the story. It's where it helps the story. Even in set decorating, I worked on a Walking Dead spinoff last year. And it was specifically told to us that we were not allowed to have any Easter eggs. That if the producers wanted Easter eggs, then they would tell us what they were and where to put them. But that we were not supposed to put anything from the Walking Dead universe or anything like that into the set on our own. Oh, we'll just put this here. And then they'll know, whatever. We're not allowed to do that. But then other times, on other sets I have, on In Just Like That, I did stick in a few Easter eggs. Really? Yeah, trying to think what any of them were, which I cannot right off the top of my head. And I only did season one. I did not do season two. Which is unfortunate. Yeah, that happens. Of course. But yeah, we definitely had Easter eggs. And we had definitely Easter eggs and boardwalks that I cannot even tell you because it was so long ago. Oh, well, in Prime, I can tell you that every single book on Meryl Streep's shelf was specifically chosen. Really? They're all books on therapy, and mental health, and spirituality. And yeah, I chose every one of those books. And I put them on a bookshelf. Oh, that's great. I like these little attention to details. That's great. I want to jump back to what you said previously about theater. You said that your piece and yourself is very much influenced by theater. And you feel like you were in a play, like when you're inside belongings. And the setting of your VR piece is very rudimentary. The user is surrounded by just walls with some items inserted in them, just like shelves. But the interesting part is no matter how simple the decor is, I felt very much immersed in the piece. So can you please tell us more about how you worked out the immersive aspect of your piece, as well as presence in it? But also from a theater concept. When thinking about your answer, just maybe try thinking about how you approached it while being influenced by theater. Well, part of that would be the design of the installation that I had in mind, if I ever get to do it as a location-based installation, which is that I would build these shelves, and you would enter them. One would be kind of hinged like a door. And you would enter it, and you would physically be inside the sculpture, which is influenced a little bit by Louise Nevelton. It was a sculptor that my mom loved, and who made some large, almost shed-sized sculptures. So then metaphorically, you're kind of inside her head, looking out at the world within the environment of belongings. And then you would physically be that in the installation if you were in one. And how that relates to theater, it's almost like a theater in the round a little bit, where honestly, you're the actor. You're the actor, and you're looking out. And I don't know if it's a stretch of the metaphor to say that the world around you is the audience. And in a way, you're wearing the headset, and you're in there, and you see your hands. And you're almost observing yourself doing these things. I don't know. I do feel like I'm an actor picking up these things. Like, I'm here to do this, and I'm doing it. So this is the time where myself, as a scholar, comes up. Yes, please, please. Comes up. Because the scope of my research covers VR experiences that do not try to influence the users with predetermined choices in an artistic, educational, and entertainment concept. And I call, and you're going to, it's very interesting what you just said, because my concept, the user themselves, I call them spect-actors. So you're a spectator, because as you say, you wear the headset. You see your hands. You're interacting with everything around you. But you're seeing what you're seeing as a spectator, just like you would be watching a film. But you're also an actor in an experience. So I attach a lot of importance to the user's intentions being captured. And I believe these factors provide to the users a direct participation, involvement, and pleasure, as subjective as it is in the narrative, when there is one. And it's even more interesting with yours, because there is a narrative, but it's a speculative one. So I'm an actor interacting with all the things around me, trying to find a sense to your story by learning more about your mother, while interacting with as much items as possible. But I'm also a spectator, because I'm seeing all of these beautiful things displayed, exhibited, like you mentioned. Does that make sense? It really does, yeah. Yes, I mean, that was my intention. And so I'm glad that you are the exact person who would understand that. Yes, and I really truly felt like I was a spectator in your piece. Which I think was very enthralling. And it's rare that you see such an experience in VR, because most things are game-oriented. Which I like, I really like them. They're very game-oriented, or film-oriented sometimes. But I think the pleasure of discovering VR, and for this medium to really make sense, is for the viewer, the user, to be immersed in an environment that they discover based on their interactions and connections with the piece. And this is what I meant when I said, I feel like your piece truly makes sense in VR, because, in respect to what I'm working on right now. So, based on what I just told you, is it something that you, I mean, you definitely took into consideration while making it, but I'm just wondering, because you said spectator, you said also being an actor, and you're talking about theatre at the same time. I'm just trying to connect the dots here. You know, what was your creative context, pattern while making it? And taking these actions into your mind, while connecting all of this with your mother's belongings, and everything. It is a lot. It's a lot, yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, really the most important thing to me was to not make something that people would see, and then say, this could have been something else. It was really important to make something that told the story in a way that could only happen in VR, which is not, you know, not just making it three-dimensional. It's thinking about it from the very beginning, just exactly what you're saying. From the beginning, what are the things we can only do in VR to tell stories, and that's how I'm going to do it. And, I mean, it went through so many iterations. I worked on it for over a year to develop it, and the story changed so much, and I rewrote it. And actually, even after I submitted it and graduated, I rewrote it completely again, and changed a lot of the interactions. I don't think I would completely redo it again, but I'm pretty happy with it. Oh, yeah. But that was my goal, always, to do that. And, I mean, I call it speculative. I don't know when you're, like, when you're experiencing it, I just want you to enjoy it as a story. Like, it's speculative on my part because I never got to talk to her about any of these things, and there are so many questions and so many mysteries, like the pictures from camp. Complete mystery. What is that camp? How did she get there? This would have been only a few years after she got to New York. So, I wish I knew. There's a whole album of them. No idea. Yeah, so many mysteries. So, I guess I'm kind of solving the mysteries for myself, and then, you know, when you're on set and you see a really great actor work with a prop, it's really interesting to see them, like, hold it and look at it and think about it. And, you know, hopefully you've worked with the director about the character. All the set dressing is hopefully advancing the story as well. Everything there is supporting it. I mean, obviously, every little tiny thing can't because there's too much stuff. But in a way, everything in your house supports who you are. Everything in everyone's house, everything everyone has supports who they are. And that is another thing that I wanted people to think about. That's true. That's true. And after interviewing so many people in the field from an artistic, educational, and entertainment context, I find that a lot of their experiences, whether, you know, they bring a lot of freedom to the users or not, or I would say not or less, you know, there's always a guided line, you know. They were always being guided, much like in video games. Like, you have little things that you're allowed to do in between, like side quests, but you always have a main objective, you know. And your main objective is to go through your entire mother's life, you know, and figure out, to discover her decline, you know, her blooming, but also her decline at the same time, which is so beautiful and poetic. And I do notice that these spectators' experiences, I call them, have a little bit less of a, you know, fixed guideline, but yours, there is one, and it's time. Time is the guideline, but it's also very subtle to the point that I thought that specific objects would trigger this time travel thing, you know, that shift in time. And that is very special, because normally in a VR experience where you're being guided, at some point you notice, huh, nothing's happening right now. So I guess I have to, oh, here it is. Something's highlighted over there. So I have to go there to make, for the narrative to move forward. But with yours, it stops instantly. And you're like, no, no, I wanted to do more things. You know, I wanted to look at this photo over there. But then time is something you cannot control. And that makes it even more profound as a piece. And it's one of the most subtle guide, guideline that I, narrative guideline that I discovered. And it's great. Thank you for developing this. Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much. You know, it's, it's, it's not funny. But, you know, when I finished in 2020, I kind of felt a little bit like I did all this work and just threw it in a hole. You know, because who knew if there was ever going to be festivals again, you know, or ever going to be anything in person ever again, you know. So, like, I had a whole plan. There's a little VR room at the school that I was going to use. I was going to bring everybody in there and play test it on them. And, and I didn't get to do any of that. So, it's like now, one person at a time, is how I'm play testing, you know. So, and a lot of them are more industry people and not, like, sometimes I bring it to work and force people to do it for play testing purposes. Good. And, yeah. So, that's, I mean, that's a big part of development, is play testing. And I didn't really get to do that, that part of development where I really needed to do it. So, that was a real, that made it really difficult to not, to be able, not be able to show to a lot of different kinds of people. Because my audience, my intended audience, is really new users. Yeah. And I wanted to make it simple for them and I wanted to make it also not nauseating because I get, even after all these years of watching so many things, I get nauseous really easily. Same for me, yeah. Especially when the joystick's involved and you get to move around, it's awful. Like, just like, smooth locomotion, I cannot do it. And if there's flying, cannot do it. There's this piece that I recently discovered at 5R's, it's called Stay Alive, My Son. And it's such a beautiful piece. And you get to move around in a nightmarish labyrinth inside the mind of a person who lost his son years ago during the Cambodian genocide. And you get to move forward using your joystick, but you move very slowly. Just like you have no control of your body, basically. And I did it seated, so it really helps. So, just a little tip for you in the future, you know. Being seated and not going too fast, but also the mechanics of the piece made me do it that way. But it's, and I discussed it with the developer. And she told me that she really took it into consideration while working on, you know, the whole development and movement in her piece. So, like you mentioned, you mentioned a couple of challenges while making your piece, and also when it comes to playtesting. But what was the biggest challenge in the design of a VR project like yours? Which one did you have to overcome during production? Yeah. Well, production was basically me and my partner during COVID, just together here. Well, another thing that I would have never attempted this without him, because he is the developer, he has the skill. So, he did all the scripting in Unity. And Unity has its good points and its bad points. And it is easier, I'd say, for a total beginner non-tech person to get into and be able to kind of get something going pretty quickly. I have not tried Unreal yet, but I don't believe that it's as simple is not what I've been told. But this is a thing we ran into a lot, where there are a lot of things that you would think Unity would have built in, like things that would be easy to do, like even just picking stuff up, or the thing with the little balls where they multiply. Yeah. He wrote a script for that. There were a lot of things that he had to write scripts for that were hard to get working correctly. I think now, maybe with the interaction toolkit, it may be easier. But there were just features that were just completely missing from Unity that were hard to figure out. And also just having to learn Unity while I was making it, which is the way you learn things, right? If you want to learn something, make a project. But it made it difficult. So I had to make, I made all of those assets. I found all the, you know, I did the whole thing, got all the textures, wrote the script, recorded the script, found the music, edited the music, made all the assets, put on all the textures, took six pictures of every single thing. There are 149 objects in there. So that's, except for the photos, right? That's only one picture and I used all the same back. But every object, six pictures, made little masks, you know, shadow masks in Photoshop. Pick the color scheme. The color schemes are all matched to the time period. So they evoke that feeling like of the 70s with all the bright colors. So it was a lot of detail. And I wanted to put as much detail in as possible. Like where to stop with the things, right? I have so many more things that I could have put in there. But I had to stop somewhere. What is your dream VR experience? To do or to make? Right. Why not both? The VR experience you would be dreaming of experiencing. You would dream of experiencing. Well, it would have walking. And as the locomotion, like if they have walking around in a space. And I mean, can I just, there was the piece that won this year in Venice. It was pretty great. What's it called? It's called Songs for a Passerby. Okay. And that was pretty great. I think I'll probably be in a lot of festivals coming up. I think, I don't know what their plans for it were, but you walk in a big space. And I don't know how much I should say about it. I mean, but I don't want to spoil it for you, though, if you get to see it. Of course. So a lot of locomotion. And a lot of interactions, I'm sure. And a lot of tactile things. Because you mentioned you're a very tactile person. There's not. You don't need the controllers. You're just kind of walking and observing. Okay. So. No, I mean your dream experience. Oh, my dream experience. A lot of walking. A lot of interaction. You know, just a really good story. Yeah. Like, did you see that Inuit piece? I missed it. I actually missed it. Yeah. Which I will never forgive myself for. That was pretty great. Yeah. That was. And that was a while ago. Yeah. So that, you know. It's still touring around the world, though. Is it? Yep. You should go see it. I will. Yeah, I'll do my best. That's for sure. What's next for you, Carol? Well, I have a couple of ideas for some pieces. And one is very tactile. I have a very textured acrylic painting that I made that's a tablecloth. Wow. And I would like to do, now that you have good mixed reality headsets coming out, something which, it looks like the ocean. It looks sort of like a piece of the ocean on a table. So it would be something with AR, like augmented shape, kind of hanging over that little ocean. And then it becomes part of the ocean, the story. It's like a fairy tale. That sounds beautiful. Involving some furniture and the ocean. I like that. I would love to experience it. Well, Carol, it was an immense pleasure having you on Dr. VR. I really appreciated it. And you have so many interesting things to say, not only about your amazing VR experience belongings, but in regards to VR, memory, time, and everything related to this art form that we love. We call it an emerging art form. It's been around for many years. But I feel like it's only getting started. And I think that your piece is a very important part of it. And I thank you very much for making it, developing it, and showing it to the world. Thank you. Thank you so much, Justin. Thank you. Really appreciate it. You're very welcome.