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The transcription is a conversation between two individuals on a podcast. The guest, Charlie Goulds, discusses his background in strength and conditioning, including his experience as a college baseball player and working with athletes. He also mentions his work in the business side of strength and conditioning and his recent venture into online coaching. The conversation then includes some lighthearted banter about exercise choices and favorite cheat meals. Finally, Charlie shares his training philosophy, which involves combining different principles from various training practices to make athletes bigger, faster, stronger, and better conditioned. All right, what's going on, guys? Welcome to the 11th episode of the Triple Doll Performance Podcast. I'm your host, Coach Diego Ginola, and today I've got a very special guest, the busiest man that's trained in conditioning. I've got my guy Charlie Goulds. Charlie, if you just want to give a brief background of yourself, and then we'll get into it. Oh, man. Where do you want me to start? Athletics? Life? Coaching? I mean, the whole shebang. Why not? All right. So, yeah, basically, I guess I'll start with the path that got me into strength conditioning. So, I was a lifelong athlete. I played three, four sports, well, three really, sports growing up. Basketball, baseball, football. Strength conditioning was always a big part of my life, you know, as most athletes. And I was your guy that was constantly reading T Nation, you know, bodybuilding.com, all that type of stuff. But anyway, so I kept going. That was always a big part of my life. And then I ended up going to play college baseball at William & Mary. Went there for four years, and then I got drafted by the Oakland A's, played minor league ball there. And then that, again, like strength conditioning was a big part of that. But I, at the time, really didn't have, you know, any career path in terms of strength conditioning, like guys like you who are exercise science and have their paths, like, completely set. I ended up retiring from baseball. I was ready to move out into the real world, and the minor leagues are not the major leagues whatsoever. I'm not sure how familiar you are, but it's not like the sexiest life in the world. And then I came up to Lancaster with the now wife, and her parents, I don't know if I told you this, her parents own a health club. And at the time, they had just, you know, let go of the sports performance department, and it was kind of like dwindling. And they brought up the idea. They're like, hey, you want to give this thing a shot? And so I was like, yeah, you know, why not? And so anyways, long story short, that was probably eight, nine years ago. I've come a long way since then, you know, went from having no idea what I was doing, and to now having like a little bit more of an idea of what I'm doing, but who knows how much. A little more. That's right. And then along the way, you know, so I guess to like give a brief overview of my strength conditioning, along the way, you know, I've written articles for Teen Nation. That's like what a lot of people have met, like simply faster. I work with primarily athletes in person. That's what I've been doing for the last eight, nine years. But I have worked with, you know, General Pop, and I still do. And so the other pieces that I guess I should mention is I also run the business side of what we do. So I'm like a hybrid coach, hybrid business guy, like running the department as a whole and that business of it. And then recently got into doing some online coaching stuff as well, had, you know, program the whole nine yards there. So I'm sure that'll be linked somewhere. You can check it out if you want to. Yeah, man, definitely, definitely something that's come a long way. But so before we get to meat and potatoes, a couple of rapid fire questions and like. All right. Good morning for Jefferson girls. I'll go. Man, you're coming out right off. OK, so for a little bit, I'll take a step back. I'll say I was joking with Diego before this. I said that Jefferson girls are just RDLs that some guy named Jefferson could not do well at all. And his buddies were calling him out on it. And he's like, he's like, oh, no, like this is just a Jefferson girl. That's what I said it's for. And then the other disclaimer is I'm not saying, in fact, your spine is flexed or whatever. And obviously, like. Disclaimer, the spiners is doing all that stuff, but I'm kind of picking on it because it's just not that good next to start in terms of like a training effect, you know. All of it is to say, I'll say, say good morning. As in which one you rather do? You know, because you actually get like a go actually knows rather than that, you can actually get like a pretty solid, like posterior chain stimulus, you know, just to show that's just straight like a rector's pump, you know. Yeah, I know this is I joke, it's like kind of virtue signaling, like, look how strong my back is. That's great. That's great. You know, it's a message that needs to be spread, but. Charlie and I, we talk a lot out there about this sort of stuff, and it's like I thought I'd throw in a few of those jokes here and there. All right. Next, you know, you know, you got to throw the disclaimers out there. So I know that they're fine to exercise, whatever, but not my first choice. All right. Next one. You or Justin Forrestworth in a fight. Who's winning that? Just straight up. You mean? Yeah. Justin's too broken. All right. Like, actually, I might have to get him on at some point. I love Justin. But, um. Yeah, just great. All right. What if he has cliff with him? What if it's 2v1 then? Cliff. Cliff's a monster, man. If you don't remember Cliff, he's a big deer. He's strong. He's athletic. But you're beating Justin's ass, like, straight up. I got Justin. I got Justin. He threw on his lap, you know. He threw his lap there flat. He's bringing, like, an NLB pitcher, you know. Oh, man, I definitely have to get him on now, like, just so we can, like, defend his title. No, Justin's straight. I'm just going to send him a clip of my, I'm just going to be like, yo, like, you're catching him straight. And just have him come on, defend himself. Have the two of us on for a friendly debate. Yeah, I don't want to be educational. Just straight up, I'm hoodling in a fight. Or I just have him on and then I have you hiding in the waiting room and I just let you win. Yeah, I could just pitch in and start talking trash. All right. That'll be fun. All right. So, now, um. Actually, I got one more. Favorite cheat meal? Cheat meal? McDonald's double cheeseburgers. Oh, Mickey D's? I thought you had class. No question. No question. I thought I had what? I thought you had class. Oh, no, that's, uh. I'm all in on the McDonald's train. I got the child in me still. I'd rather go to Chick-fil-A. What's yours? Probably, probably, if we're talking fast food, probably Chick-fil-A. Oh, you thought I was going to be a little more classy with it. You brought one straight McDonald's. No, it's, yeah, right. It's a no-brainer for me. I got the child in me still. All right. Fair enough. Yeah. But, um. Actually, I have a friend who has one on his campus. Like I said, has a Mickey D's. I'm like, that's tough. Oh, you would go? Yeah. Actually, I have a friend who has Chick-fil-A on his campus, too, in Philly. And I'm like, that just sounds really good. Like, literally right next to me. It's dangerous, man. It's dangerous. I mean, he also works out. But, like, so, I don't know. I guess he's safe. But anyway. He puts on masks. Yeah. It's both seasons. You know, you can ask him. All right. So, now to get to the actual meat and potato. So, I know we sort of talked, like, off-air about sort of, like, your principles. Like, whether it's with your in-person athletes or even with your online stuff within APEC. So, if you wouldn't mind just, like, giving, kind of just telling us a little bit about some of the training principles that you use. Like, whether it's your in-person or your online stuff. Yeah, it's a good question. You know, and as you and I talk about, and I guess anyone who's listening to this, is I've never used this phrase, you know, to you. But I kind of try to consider myself like a quote-unquote Renaissance man in training. Meaning, you know, I'm a huge believer in the idea that these different qualities that we have, you know, if we had to narrow them down, we would say, like, strength. We would say speed. Consequentially, power. You know, and then things related to body composition. And you could say conditioning as well. Like, I'm a huge believer in, if I had to say one, you know, quote-unquote philosophy that I had to say, it's that all those things work together. And I'm a huge believer in that. You know, like, there's been, I have a strength phase and I have a hypertrophy phase. And I get that those are real things. But I'm a huge believer that all these things should work together, right? And so, I would say that that's, like, the central foundation that I have. So, going back to the Renaissance point, if we want to, and since my background is in working with athletes, if we want to make people better athletes and we want to make them along the same lines, bigger, faster, stronger, and better conditioned, I think that you need to take different aspects from these different practices, you know, and kind of blend them together. So, what I mean is, you have your powerlifting. Those are the guys who are experts at, you know, barbell strength. You have the bodybuilders. They have the hypertrophy. You have the track sprinters who are, you know, all about, obviously, sprint speed. And you have all of these different principles. And so, while this is vague, I think my approach, for the most part, is to take different aspects of these, like, cut the fat down, and then kind of, like, consequentially turn them into this program. Obviously, it's massive, depending on the context, right? And so, one thing, I mentioned that I primarily work with athletes in person, but as I've told you, the people who I work with online are, hardly any of them are competitive athletes. They're guys like me and you who, you know, play sports, are super into training, don't just want to look good, but want to perform really well, too. So, obviously, the context changes a little bit, but if I had to say that that was my general philosophy, it would be that. You know, and we could go into, like, the specific principles of that, you know, but overall, I would say, it's, like, combining these different principles in order to create these ultimate outcomes, you know? Oh, I love it. It's actually how I found you, because I saw an ad for Apex, and I was like, whoa. I was like, get strong, get jacked, and I found you. That's the Holy Grail of games, right there. It's like, why not have all of that? That's what I call it. It's like the Holy Grail Trifecta, you know? And whether that someone who's listening to this is, you know, just someone who's not a coach, but, like, training hard, or someone who is a coach, you know, I guess my, you know, finger wagging message is, there's no need to go all-in on any one quality at the expense of another. You know, that's, like, my big thing. I think that if you nail all of these things, that they should simultaneously work together. Oh, yeah. It's, like, an analogy I've used. It's kind of, it's a little interesting, like, but I played a lot of, like, I played a lot of video games growing up, and I have friends who do as well. Like, you don't just upgrade your character. You don't just upgrade it all in one category. You kind of, like, upgrade multiple categories. That's a good analogy. So, it's like, you don't just get strong. You don't just get jacked. You just, you don't put all your points in that list, and then you kind of, like, combine them, and I become holistic, and I have a holistic performance, in a way, to where you're able to be strong, jacked, but also, hey, if you want to play intramural, like, I'm trained to be jacked to play intramural basketball. It's, like... Right, right. No, it's, I like joking, you know. I'm just out here trying to be jacked, sprint fast, let's not wait and jump high, you know, and to some degree or another, you know, if it's, obviously, who's listing that is, but to some degree or another, like, isn't that what we're kind of all after, you know? Yeah. Yeah, it's, even if you're, even if you're an athlete, it's, like, you probably still need all the, like, you still need to get bigger, faster, stronger. Some people might say, oh, what if you're shouldn't you dial in if you're an athlete? I'm, like, well, you probably still need those general qualities, but anyway. Right. But, um, you actually brought up a good point about how you sort of, like, have your, your in-person athletes and your online sort of, like, sort of, like, wash that meathead athlete thing. What do you say is the big, the biggest differences you've seen when, like, you might have your apex principles, but how do you see is a big difference between training your competitive athletes versus just your people who want to, like, look good and also be jacked and be athletic? Good question. So, I look at this in a few ways. So, generally speaking, the people who I work with online and the people who are, like, I joke, like me, you know, they're older, right? And, and a lot of these people, you know, half of them are coaches and half of them are just, you know, your former athletes who want to, generally, they're coming from a place where they haven't done as much, I'll just say, in general, athletic stuff in some time. And if they haven't, it's, you know, box jumps. But I'm talking about, you know, your sprints, your intense athletic movements, basketball, jumping, like, all these different things. And so, their, quote, unquote, preparedness is not as high, right? So, that's, that's, like, the overarching theme is that there's more of a gradual progression that needs to take place. With our athletes, and this is half because they're generally younger and healthier and haven't had as many issues, but also half because of what we want to focus on, we'll generally be able to place a bigger emphasis on sprints, plyos, and then have the lifting stuff all the same. But I would say almost it's like a high velocity stuff off the top of my head is like a big difference right off the bat. And pretty much like the amount and volume that we do of that the lifting stuff is, is pretty similar across the board for most people, you know, like whether it's an athlete or someone like me or a coach, like the lifting stuff is the principles of the principles, you know. But I would say in terms of like progressing and scaling the plyometrics in sprints, that's the big thing. Yeah, I remember you actually told me that off air. I think you said it was something like, like your sprint volumes is like a little lower for people who aren't competitive athletes, which that just makes sense. Well, correct. And I guess to piggyback off that, the other thing is, you know, quite frankly, most people who are training after the fact and still want to be athletic, they're not as, you know, strictly interested in improving their 40 time. Right. It's something that's fun. And it's something that when I work with people, I want to do that, but it's not going to have like the straight implications on their performance, you know. So that is something that I also keep in mind. It's like we want it to happen, but it's not a primary focus. Yeah, it's like, yeah, like you like you want to sprint faster, play and pick a basketball shirt, but like you don't need to like get a certain time for a contract or something. Right. Right. And you don't have to do anything. And we know in training, you don't have to do anything, period. But if you're an athlete, you should probably be sprinting, right? Like that's one of the fundamental things that you should be doing. But if you're not, I still think you need to be doing a lot of forms of high velocity movement, you know, not to not to jump too far over the all over the place. But again, that's like something that I'm a big believer in. It's just the starting point and how you scale it and how you progress it and how you balance it into a program is what's different. Hmm. Yeah, that makes sense. I guess somebody else I wanted to ask you. So when you have an athlete who like comes in for the first time, I guess it probably also depends on if they're in a group or they're coming to you one on one. But what is your sort of like intake and assessment process look like? Do you prefer more like the typical movement screen assessment or do you kind of say, all right, let's just go do some performance tests and just get at it? So I hate to live in the it depends world, so I'll try to I'll try to be kind of straightforward. So generally speaking, if I have somebody come in, let's say it's an 18 year old college athlete. And they do not have any pre-existing issues and there's no special considerations for the sport. And by special considerations, I mean things like if they're an overhead athlete or if there are specific components where there are more, I'll say, sensitive things or potentially problematic things that should be looked at. You know, that is when I'll do more formal intake assessments relative to the individual. So my short answer is I don't have a formal process that's one size fits all, you know, but I'll look at specific things if there are special considerations or if they had injuries in the past. To get away from that, if I had to give a generic answer, actually taking them through performance tests and then watching them go through an actual lift is what we'll do, because that will ultimately tell us a lot about their strengths, their weaknesses, you know, different movement strategies, etc. So to break it down, almost always, I'll have someone come in for the first time, I will sprint them and I'll time them. Right. And so we can see different things. I don't know how you want me to go with this, but I'm just going to keep rolling with it. I think it all the way. Well, and I think that this is something where even if it's not as specific to someone listening, they can kind of get some thought processes out of it. So, for example, like we'll always do time sprints, you know, unless there are contraindications. So we'll do like short acceleration based sprints, right, like a zero to ten or a five or ten fly in. And that gives us, number one, their acceleration times and a starting point. But I can look at it in a way of like some horizontal force and mechanical qualities, like it's going to shed some light. Then we'll do our top speed sprinting again, like we'll be able to see the mechanics, we'll be able to see how they move. And it also gives us an idea of how their horizontal force compares to their vertical force and different strategies that they use. Right. So pretty much two different aspects of acceleration and top speed. Well, this is a similar protocol, like generally going through some form of a jump test. So like a standing vertical and then like an approach vertical. And again, you know, this could depend. But in general, we're going to look at both of those things and look at their overall strategies. So as an example, you know, if you look at the NFL combine guys who are jumping, they're going from a standstill. Right. And they'll crush the NBA guys because their static vertical is and this is actually, you know, metrics, their static verticals are better than these NBA guys. However, if you move them to an approach jump, the NBA guys are going to blow the NFL guys out of the water. Right. So so it's something that kind of just tells us different stories. And we put these pieces together as we look at everything from like a more holistic view. So the sprint and the jump and the two types of big ones that we do in terms of like your high velocity qualities. And then after that, we don't generally do any conventional like one at max three at max testing with our athletes. We'll just take them through like a standard. We'll do some sort of a hinge, some sort of a squat, generally a horizontal and or vertical press and a vertical and or horizontal pull. Right. And so we just look at like different strategies and it gives us, you know, it sheds a lot of light. You can see how they. Quote unquote compensate, you know, in certain patterns, how they know whether it's a hingey squat or squatty deadlift, like different things like that, you know, and there's not any one thing generally that we see that's like this is a glaring weakness. This is glaring strength. This is a glaring red flag. You know, it's it's more like how all of these different things fit together to tell a story, right? Like that's what it is. Just putting these different puzzle pieces together and then trying to come up with some sort of solution to increase their performance in whatever it is. Yeah, actually, and I love that. I also like you said you don't really have a streamline because it's also impossible to even have a streamline because people have different tasks and people have like your gen pop clients going to have a different task and different like and different like task requirements and task demands depending on your athlete. Yeah, right. Well, and that's right. And that's the thing is I know it's super helpful to have frameworks. I know that there are certain assessment and intake processes that have merit. Right. If you're looking at different range of motions and whatnot, like I've done your FMS in the past, you know, I'll occasionally do like your FMA type thing and look at different, you know. Potential restrictions or whatever it is, because those things can come into play. And like I absolutely think that there's a time and place for protocols, but with our specific demographic, again. You know, generally healthy, it's different from work, most of us are generally healthy, generally athletic and are strictly based in like. Performance and body composition related measures, and we're going to look at everything that is relevant to that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, actually, go ahead. You want to say something else or. I was going to say to piggyback off that, you know, generally the good news is, right, instead of doing like a table Thomas test or looking at their fifth introduction, which again, I'm not hating on that. Like, I think there could be a time and place. However, when you actually see them perform. Higher stress movements, you know, and by that I mean like higher force, higher velocity. Those things tend to manifest, right? Like you'll see if there are any major issues or just movement strategies that come up anyways. Yeah, I love that. Actually, I guess if you want to a little later, we can go deeper into like kind of why I hate like assessments and correctives. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, 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no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, like I said, you I have no emotional attachment to any one method or exercise or anything like that. I care about what's bad, or what we think is bad. So tying that all together, right? I think, I think getting a system together in the beginning, and then taking different bits and pieces of them. And again, like these guys have different focuses, and maybe there's more of an emphasis on speed or strength or hypertrophy here. But I think for me, personally, the way that I was able to take all that stuff in, have an open mind, and then put it all together. And again, like, I'm still figuring out, you know, but I think that's kind of what is like, ultimately serving the best. And then the other aspect of it, you know, not to ramble on too much, is what I did is I've been able to test it myself in my own training. I've been able to, to coach hundreds, if not 1000s of people through it. And then I've been able to try to teach and write about it and whatnot, and kind of get feedback, figure out works. So it's a constant, like back and forth, taking new information, try it out, try it with others, etc. And then like, refine, you know, and, and, and, like I said, you know, at the end of the day, everything we do is an educated guess, like, there are some things that we're pretty confident they work. There are some things that we're pretty confident they work, but, you know, ultimately, we might, we might find out aren't the most effective, but you never have it all figured out. It's just a matter of accumulating information and learning how to implement and test out accordingly, you know? Hmm. Yeah, I love it. I can get by with what you said, I guess. Another thing I want to add on to that. So who else were other big influences, like in your career, like as a strength coach, like who else influenced you, like, whether it's with your similar to the last one, but with like, how you program or how you coach, like, who else? So growing up, and throughout most of my, honestly, most of my strength and conditioning career at the beginning at least, and probably regardless of whether they're a coach or a trainer, or someone who just likes working out listening to this, what we all grew up and are accustomed to doing is lifting weights, right? It's strength training, it's lifting heavy, it's focusing on getting bigger, all this stuff, which I'm, as I've made clear, I am all for, right? And as an athlete, one of the things that I always laughed, and maybe this is why it stuck out to me now is I was never fast, right? I was never fast. I was big, I was strong, I could hit baseball as far, you know, but I was never fast. And it was something where I was a big believer in the fact that, well, not the fact, I was a big, I was thinking, you know, speed you either have or you don't. Like, you're faster or not. Fast forward, I would say that right now, like the biggest influences that I've had that have really like changed my outlook on things are coaches that are in that athletic ish track and field realm. So guys like I said, you like Tony Holler, Matt McInnis-Watson, it's been big for me with the plyometrics recently, like Les Spellman, Lee Tapp, those types of guys have largely influenced me in areas where I was previously like very uncomfortable. Charlie Francis too, probably. You what? Charlie Francis too, probably. Charlie Francis too, yes, yes, that's absolutely right. So, and I think everybody has their own, you know, weak spots, right? And obviously with all of these systems, like they're super useful. The ones that I probably don't talk about as much are those guys who are more in that sprint, jump, you know, purely athletic world. Yeah, and actually everyone you mentioned too, it's like I follow them and see their stuff and it's all great content. And I do like, as you said, like, find your weaknesses. I mean, it's even why I got into S&C. I was like, well, can I get more athletic and get stronger? It's like, oh, and then next thing you know, you're helping other people. Right, right, right. It's like, you see the influence that this could have on yourself and other people that you're working with. And it's like, you know, this is pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah, good stuff. I mean, that's pretty much it for a lot of the questions I was thinking of. Now it's just time for us to go ramble on and just talk shit. Well, tell me about who your favorite influence is. Ooh, favorite. Actually, that's a good one. Hold on. I'm the one hosting the podcast. Now you're asking questions? You just said you're asking questions. We got to go. I was kidding. But I guess biggest influences on my own stuff, I mean, initially it started out with like Paul Favorites and Max Marza, like when I was good. That was back when I was in like the big basketball world, right? And then they traded the conditioning. Two more great guys, yeah. Yeah, and then, of course, when I got to Ithaca last year, I met Brian Oberther. I think I say it was Instagram. I think that was the assessment of CBPS, like he worked under Smitty. Then, of course, he kind of introduced me to all like the old school stuff, like, you know, like Westside, Conjugate, like all the old stuff. I was used to like more like Modify Tri-Basic and all that, like from Paul and Max. And then, of course, I sort of had the idea where it's like, ooh, which one's better? Is the old school method better or is like the new way better? Then, of course, I eventually realized that, okay, it actually just comes down to not one of them is inherently better, it's just context. And like, yeah, like same thing what we were talking about earlier with like the whole like assessment and corrective things where it's like, yeah, you could do these things, but it might not be relevant per se. It's all context. Right. And I would say, again, I guess I'm taking this more, you know, down the coaching avenue. But I think one thing you have to keep in mind, and I guess this could be, you know, for someone who just trains generally and doesn't coach, is you always have to keep in mind the context of the person who you are listening to, where they are coming from. Right. The thing that made me think of this was I recently saw two pretty big names for conditioning. You know, one of them posted something and it was potentially controversial. And then this other guy, I'll say his name, it's this Phoenix Sunstrike conditioning coach, Shessler, is that what it is? Yeah, I guess. He's a Phoenix Sunstrike conditioning coach, or at least he was. You'd recognize him. Oh, wait, let me check, that guy, is that Shessler? Yes, yeah. So he commented something along the lines of, well, I'll just say that, it was Boyle. And somebody asked him his thoughts. And he said, you know, Michael is a great coach who knows how to operate in this environment. And so I think, and I love that way of putting it, because it pretty much went to show, like, you need to understand the context and where someone is coming from and then use that information accordingly. Of course, you know, it's not always going to be laid out for you. So I think that's where kind of the discretion aspect of it comes in. But going back to your initial point, yes, the context is everything, right? And if you're a coach, I think constantly trying to put those puzzle pieces together is huge. If you're not, I think it's either get a coach who you trust or use discretion wisely when you're trying to put those things together as well. And test it out, you know. I think the biggest thing you talked about is, like, just knowing, like, it's something that I've also, I think I've heard you and I've also heard Kyle talk about, is, like, the whole understanding of the context of the thing you learned. Because, like, back when I was going through, like, all the rabbit holes of, like, assessing the correctives and all those things, like, one thing I didn't factor in is I'm, like, this, most of these are in a rehab PT setting. It's, like, where it might be the best fit when you're in a transient conditioning facility. And it's, like, I think I told you, like, that joke that I think was either Kyle or Matt was saying where it's, like, they had, I think Kyle said he had a trainer he saw who was doing balloon breathing drills in the middle of the floor of, like, a packed gym in New York City. It's, like, imagine you're the client just lying there on the ground. Like, you're trying not to get stomped out the whole time. No. Yeah. You're trying not to get stomped out. You're trying not to look stupid. It's, like, at the end of the day, keep the goal to goal, you know? And I talk to you about this. You know, people like to pick on the fitness industry and say, you know, it's what she has or people who are ignorant or whatever. And, like, I've talked to you about you. And I mean this in an optimistic way, even though it sounds pessimistic, is that's in every industry. You're always going to have people who are, like, focusing on my news show or saying things that are downright false or, you know, whatever it is. But at the end of the day, I think the overarching thing that I see is, like, keep the goal to goal and focus on the things that are on that path, you know? And I don't think that fitness is that bad. I just think it's, like, human nature and different tendencies that are coming into play, right? Like, like I said to you and whoever's listening to this, so I'm not an exercise science major. I'm not. I'm an econ major. I was in economics. And so one of the things that I think that that served, maybe, you know, maybe I was behind, but I do think that that gave me some advantages because I learned to make decisions based on different frameworks, educated guesses, you know, resource allocation. Like, you look at all of these different factors that are pretty concrete, and then you try to make the best decisions, right? And so I guess that's where it, like, goes back into using a somewhat objective lens, which some people will never do, but hopefully people listening to this will. And it's, like, just finding out the best decisions and different strategies you can use to make the best decisions towards what you're going after. I mean, that's all great stuff. And actually, part of what you said about the whole, like, objectivity and, like, and the ideas, and I'll think that I get issues with that. And I get issues with actually being objective. Like, what do you think are some of the things that you see? Like, I guess we'll get to, like, whatever grinds your gears on that. Like, what are the things you see? What do you see in the industry that maybe is even common or popular that you just disagree with and just absolutely grinds your gears? Like, I'll share mine afterwards, but you can go ahead. Absolutely grinds my gears. All right. Well, you might have to kick this off because I'm going to need some ideas. I'm sure there are plenty. I mean, the number one thing that sticks out to me off the top of my head is strictly dogmatic views, right? Black and white. This is how something works and this doesn't. And I try to, as much as I can, avoid the it depends answer, right? We know that most answers are that, but I try to give generally applicable answers. That being said, the black and white crowds who say one thing is always this case, or one thing is always that case, or this is why someone got injured, you don't want to touch those people at the tentacle pole. So off the top of my head, in general, the dogmatic takes are what probably, to use your words, grind my gears the most. That's a good one. I like that one. I mean, I used to be very dogmatic in my thinking. As I said, how I thought there was one objective best way to train, I sort of realized that's kind of stupid. There is no best way. Well, I agree with you. I do. And I kind of want to piggyback off that. I'll say two things. First of all, I don't want to get into the weeds of it, but I really just think that some of the assessments are just kind of stupid. Like, okay, I'll say it. They have a time and place, but when you understand biomechanics, sometimes this doesn't make sense. Well, I agree with you. I do. And I kind of want to piggyback off that. I'll say two things. Well, number one, we already talked about how you want to keep the goal to goal, right? And a lot of people, if you're doing something without the presence of pain that is extremely acute and specific, like, realistically, you know, it probably doesn't matter that much. And even if you think that it does, and somebody presented a reason for it does, it's like, we have limited resources, we have limited time, limited energy, it's like, chase your rabbits widely, that type of thing, right? And while I do also think that most assessments, in a sense, are, I guess I'll just say useless, right? Or potentially put unnecessary barriers to exercise. My disclaimer is I'll say that in something like, I'm not sure if you're familiar with like the SFMA. Yeah, okay, you are. So they have something, and I'll swirl back with this. They have something called TPI, which is the Titleist Performance Institute. And I haven't told you that I do this, but I do this once a year, I take this group through like a six-week TPI SFMA thing. What we do, in short, is you look at different movement capabilities that they have. So like thoracic rotation and hip rotation, and like, you know, if they can move those things independently of each other for TOR, like all this stuff. On the surface, it's kind of funny and looks stupid. But the TPI created their own version of it to where you can see if there are any specific restrictions that will prevent them from, you know, getting a full backswing. I'm not good at golf, but a full backswing or full rotation, stuff like that, I can see the value in it, you know. And that's, going back to what I said, that's like a special consideration. However, taking a step back, in general, like, yes, the assessment process is massively, massively overanalyzed by most people, and it has the potential to create more problems than it could solve. Yeah, it's like, yeah, and again, in certain situations, like if you're in rehab, like, SMA is good. But I think in other situations, like as you said, like making training the goal, or like what Tony Genachor talks about, how you don't want to point out dysfunction to make people feel bad. But I'll even go a step further. I won't go too deep, but essentially, like, say you're on the ground doing an assessment, right, but it's completely unloaded. You stand up, and now you're actually working with gravity, and your center of mass is different. Or you put a barbell on your back, but it's heavier than you, now that's a center of mass. Or it's just, it's such a low of a stimulus when you do it, like, or that's also why I think correctives can be kind of stupid sometimes. Like, it's, I won't go too deep, but it's so low of a stimulus. Go for it. Yeah. It's so low of a stimulus that it won't actually, like, cause a change in your big movements. Like, that's why I think loaded strength training is the best way to, like, to, as you said, pick a better exercise. That's the best corrective. You're actually getting stronger and teaching your brain, oh, I actually can do this movement. Because if it's not high in the stimulus, like, your brain is not going to, like, actually look at it differently. I'm writing something down here because I want to make sure I get to it. So, I have, I totally agree with you. Here's the kind of story I like to tell when people bring that in, because there are a lot of great physical therapists who are way smarter than I am in their realm, you know, but there are a lot of bad ones. And we'll have, to use your example, like, we had a girl who was a basketball player and had a pretty bad knee injury. It wasn't an ACL or anything. It was actually bone. And she had come to us on her own volition because she wanted to get back to play before she came. And I asked her, I said, what was the last thing you guys did in physical therapy? You know, I generally get it. She's like, we stood up on a box. We sat down and we stood up on a box. And I was like, well, that's a major red flag, you know, because if you go out there after you've been out for three months and you try to play basketball and the last thing you've done is just sat down and stood up, like, you're screwed. You know, I mean, I didn't say that, but, like, you're in trouble because you have no preparation. The story that I tell is if somebody who is completely deconditioned, right, has not worked out a day in their lives, is overweight, has, you know, high risk of heart, all this type of stuff, if they walk on the treadmill for an extended period of time over however long it may be, they can actually build muscle mass. Like, this is a true thing. Someone who is completely deconditioned, has not trained, they can build muscle mass walking on a treadmill, right, which is crazy, right? Like, if I try to walk on a treadmill, no, of course I'm not going to build muscle. However, past the point, they're not going to build muscle mass anymore, right? So, what do you need to do? You need to increase the stimulus. You need to get something that's more challenging. And then once you give them something that's more, yeah, right, right. So, at some point, you have to give them something that's more challenging to force an adaptation, right? And that same idea applies to anything, whether you're talking about an elite NFL football player who's trying to get faster, like, you constantly have, and I know I'm preaching to the choir, you constantly have to increase that stimulus based on where that threshold is, right? And the problem with a lot of these corrective exercises, I kind of joke, I said they're neither corrective nor exercises, is because if it's not challenging to any degree, you're not doing anything, you're just doing the glorified warmup. Yeah, go ahead, go ahead. Well, and to piggyback off that, are you familiar with Alex Macera? I think I've heard the name, yeah. So, he does a lot of, I'll have to show you his stuff after, he's got some good research. He does a lot of stuff with force plates and center mass distribution and all this type of stuff. Anyways, one of the things that he set out to look at, and he's written about this, I don't know if it's a post-ana study, but he looked at someone's hip shifts or compensations in the squat, right? And I think he started by looking at it when they were at 60% of their warmup max. And he looked at the degree to which they were putting weight in each foot, right? So, how much they compensated by pushing through one foot or the other. Then, he slowly increased the load. You know what happened when the load got heavier? Who knows? Well, tell me. They compensated less. They actually balanced out. Meaning, as the loads got heavier, they squatted better. Maybe, you know, you could come up with multiple potential reasons for this. You know, having to use, like, different strategies or bracing, whatever it is. But the point was, you know, it goes against the idea that something is dysfunctional, don't load it. You know, and I take dysfunctional with quotes. And the other part is, if you want to fix a hip shift in a squat, like, maybe what you need to do is actually have, like, a challenging squat, you know. Yeah. Like, I guess to piggyback what you're saying, I think I, a long time ago, I think I sent you an Angus Bradley post where it was, like, this. You probably remember this one. This Olympic lifter who was doing an FMS overhead squat and failed it. And then you also have a picture of him snatching with multiple plates over his head because you move different under load. Like, you're not used to moving without load. Right. And, of course, you have a totally different movement strategy when you move with loads. Right, right. I mean, it looks. I'll go for it. It's like Matt. So, yeah, you're going to do a low-level corrective and then go squat, like, 500 pounds. It's like it's not going to actually do anything. There's no correlation whatsoever, you know. Right. And at the end of the day, like, circling back to what we said earlier, what is someone wanting to achieve, right? Like, if somebody is wanting to increase their squat, you've got to squat heavy, right? Like, putting a barrier to entry and not having them squat heavy is completely defeating the purpose, right? It's like going to a financial advisor and then they're trying to change the flavor of the coffee that you bring in to meet with them. Like, it's separate, you know. And I guess the other example I'm thinking of, you know, twirling back to the athletic components of it, because this really does come full circle, is one of the questions I got recently that I have actually gotten multiple times is how do I improve my approach jump technique, right? And it's like what should I do? It was like someone like, how can I, you know, do submaximal jumping to improve my max effort jumping technique? And you probably figured out my answer by now. I'm like, don't work on a submax. Like, actually, you know, do max effort approach jumps with measurably feedback. And the body is incredible at self-organizing, right? Like, it finds the right strategies to do things or the best strategies to do things over time. It's like I remember you had a post on, like, I think it was like the 10 ways to increase your vertical jump. But the first one, I think it was like practice jumping. It was like, let's just practice the technique. I mean, like, it's just. It's a no-brainer. I mean, and it's amazing, you know. I think I saw a couple guys joking about it, how as an industry, like, it was revolutionary when we realized. And I was guilty of this. But it was revolutionary when we realized that sprinting was the best way to sprint faster. You know, it's like one of those things. And, again, I think it's, and this could also apply in other industries. But, like, we, and by we, I mean coaches and people who train, sometimes need to get out of our own way. You know, we just overthink things. We look at all these solutions, these little things, you know, improve range of motion here, do this exercise here, while missing the big picture. It's like a perfect example of what you just said. I remember Kyle saying that, like, people will come, will, like, try to, like, do correctives, like, fix, like, their movement quality or something, right? And he said, well, most people who have trouble moving, it's because, like, they, their body composition's not the best, because it's literally pulling their center mass forward. There's that. And also, there's, like, they're inactive and just not as strong. So, like, logically, what do you do to fix that? You move and actually get stronger. Correct. You don't lay on the ground and do nothing. Like, an example of this. Like, I actually, I have a client who came in, who actually listened to this podcast, but, and, like, but he came in and, like, presented with, like, I don't want to get too clinical, but, like, basically kind of has, like, classic lefty icy. Like, the right shoulder's a little lower, like, and he basically was, like, hey, I just want to, like, I want to, like, look, like, look better, like, body comp wise, but also move better. And he was, like, what do I got to do? And I was honest with him. And I was, like, well, like, the easiest way is for us just to actually get stronger and work in that body comp. Like, that will actually probably naturally fix, like, some of those problems. Now, I even told my grants that I'm not a physical, I'm, like, I'm not a physical therapist. So, it's, like, but, like, I'm, like, like, that's likely going to be the thing that's going to help the most. Common sense. It's common sense, right? And that goes back to that idea of becoming anti-fragile in a way. It's, like, if you get stronger, you'll be more anti-fragile, you know. And if you improve your body composition, like, certain performance measures are just going to improve, right? Like, if you told me you want to do and get faster and increase your vertical in one week, which I actually just had one of my guys text me. He said, I have one week. What should I do? Well, he asked me this specifically, but I was, like, and this is not my answer, but I'm bringing up to the question. I'm, like, improve your body comp, lose a little bit of, like, lose three pounds of fat. Like, guess what? Some measures will improve, you know. If you have joint issues and you have absolutely zero strength and haven't loaded them at all, like, guess what? A little bit of load will go a long way. And to go back to Kyle, I think he said don't take a rehab solution to a fitness problem, and it's so true. Yeah, and a lot of it is a work. Like, I think he said it was, like, if you see a movement issue, but it's, like, after, if they're in the middle of a set, it's, like, oh, so is it actually a movement problem or is it an issue with strength or capacity? As you said, it's a fitness problem, not, like, a diagnostic or, like, clinical problem. Right, right. And it's amazing, again, I know I'm preaching to the choir, but it's amazing what good training and getting stronger can do, you know. Cool. And I'll throw my wife under the bus, so I don't want to pick the bad guy here, but she was actually a kinesiology major, and she was saying, she was, like, you know, I bet if 90% of the population who went to physical therapy for back pain, like, if they would just do a basic workout program, they would be fine. And I was, like, yeah, I think I agree. Oh. I think I agree. Because you actually have the capacity and strength to handle, like, those loads, right? Right. And all those, you know, quote, unquote, like, dysfunctional stuff you do, like, bending over to get, you know, pick up the dog or something. Like, that type of stuff, you will be more resilient, or should I say anti-fragile to do it, you know. Yeah. Yeah. It goes a long way. I guess also part of it, as we're saying, is also psychology, too, because, like, if I had just told my client, I was, like, hey, we're going to, you are dysfunctional, and we're going to do all these correctives, he would have said, just fuck you. But it's, like, I'm, like, hey, how about we actually, like, let's go on some machines, like, let's build some muscle. Like, that's more fun, because he actually wants to train. And then you actually see quantifiable results, right. Instead of just doing correctives and getting nothing done. Right. You walk out of there feeling like a total idiot. You didn't train. You just paid, you know, 70 bucks to lay on the ground and blow balloons and use minivans for an hour, you know. And again, I think that just goes back to, like, keeping the goal. Yeah. I'll actually give you credit on this one. You're the one who sort of actually, like, convinced me on the idea that that's the best corrective exercise, just a better exercise. Like, I think I saw in, like, one of your guides. I think you had a free guide or something, and you mentioned that. I saw another client who had, like, shoulder pain because, like, softball. And I said, well, different motion than throwing a baseball. But my thought process was, like, all right, let's try neutral grip. Oh, your shoulder doesn't hurt. Okay. Or at one point it did. I'm like, okay, but it hurt after you did this much load. Okay. So, like, it's all about just finding, okay, like, what exercise doesn't hurt and at what load does it hurt so we can find a good load and find a good exercise. Like, that's much better than, like, I can do that or I can do, like, all the bending rotator cuff stuff. Yes. Well, okay. So, no, you're 100% right. And I'll tell you, I haven't really talked to you about this, but, you know, if anyone gets value out of it, it's something that I feel pretty good at. So, and I'm sure I'm not the one who came up with this, but, you know, like I talked about, I'm an econ guy. I try to come up with these different frameworks that, you know, tell stories and you can recognize patterns. And I'm thinking about this because I was just talking to a guy who I'm working with, actually, that hip, glute, you know, issue guy. And I look at it, any injury or potential issue I look at, there are four things that could flare it up. You know what I'm saying? Any guesses? So, one of them is load. If you overload something, yes. And with a lot of people that I work with, especially in return to play or guys who are getting back into sprinting or whatever after injury, the first one is load. Like, they have an issue if they go past a certain weight in, say, a squat. Yes. The second one is velocity, right? Someone will feel fine, you know, skipping, but as soon as they sprint, boom, it hurts. Yes. The third one is range of motion. Yes. If someone does a partial box squat, and stick with the new example, and they feel fine, but then they go down deep and it hurts, it's a range of motion issue. And then the last one is, you could call it endurance or capacity, which is if you're doing a set of 20 squats, you know, you get to 15 and it starts to hurt. Or you're running, you know, and then once you're at half a mile, it starts to hurt. And so, like, I mean, there's not really much other than that, right? It's time, it's load, it's speed, or it's range of motion. And so, if you break into those types of things and you look at the potential solutions, it's working into those things. You know, it's not doing minivan external rotations. It's actually finding, okay, with your client, what was it? It was a weight thing? Are you talking about my shoulder client or my lefty? Yes, the shoulder client. It was actually, it was just an issue because she had been, I think she heard of, like, softball pitching or something because she plays softball. Okay, okay. And there could be overlap. There could be overlap, of course. But literally, for her, it was like, just to be safe, I, like, checked, like, her range of motion and it was fine. Like, I guess it would probably be fine if it was. But essentially, it was just, okay, we found that, like, example, if we were going to do a row or, like, an overhead press or, like, a pull-up, we found, like, pronated grip hurt, neutral grip felt fine. So I was like, okay, so anything shoulder weight will go neutral grip for now. And also certain weights maybe hurt. So I'm like, okay, let me take it, and I break it down so I think, oh, okay, that feels fine. Okay, so then we just know that, okay, we've got to, as you said, just do a better job of taking a good exercise and picking a good load to prescribe. And then what happens, right? So it's her shoulder. Well, guess what? She's working her shoulder. And she's getting into an overhead range. And you can't just, you know, cross your fingers and say a prayer and hope that stuff gets better if you never address it, right? Like, you need to actually try to. It goes back to the anti-fragile idea. And Tommy John, not the surgery guy, but actually his son, who is, he was a chiropractor, but he's kind of moved over to the physical therapy. He said, like, if there is an injury that you have and you want it to get better, then you should focus on bringing it past the point where it was when you were injured, right? Like, and to piggyback off what you said, like, if your client has an issue reaching her arm overhead, that's not going to get better until she figures out how to reach her arm overhead, you know, and, like, get over the limiters. Yeah, like, that was a big thing. I don't mean to, like, trash on, like, any sort of system I took or anything, but one of the systems I took, they said if you, like, if you couldn't do this assessment, it meant to not press overhead, right? Right. And in my opinion, I'm like, well, we could do a landmine press where it's a different angle, or what if we just do a different, like, you're also doing the test this way, what if I just go, like, what if I just go, and then that feels fine. And again, like, if someone wants to build big shoulders, you know, you're probably going to have to get them overhead in some way, right? Like, so, again, keeping the goal in mind, it's not like, oh, if you have beat-up shoulders, sorry, we're just going to do something else. It's like, no, let's find a way to do it. I don't remember who said it, but I remember hearing the quote that it was, like, at a certain point, you have to, like, if you're, like, post-injury or post-rehab, the load has to be greater than the original injury for it to actually, like – Exactly. Yeah, that's what I would – you said it better than I did. That's what Tommy John got was saying. Maybe it was Tommy John. Maybe it's circulator, but it's true. So, I don't know if you know this about me, and to whoever's still listening, again, I'm going to circle this back. But one thing to give you, like, a little brief personal story, I have zero cartilage in my left knee. Like, if you look at my MRI – have I told you this? Oh, you haven't, no. So, I was a lifelong catcher, and I think that that contributed. Never felt any issues. And then I went a little off the rails in my training. After I finished flying, I was crazy and did all these different things, and I developed, like, a pretty bad knee issue. And it got to the point – and, again, this was pretty early on, so I really didn't know what I was doing. I know a little bit more of what I'm doing right now. So, I got an MRI, and I went to the physical therapist, and they were looking at my knee, and they're like, you have pretty much nothing in there. And the takeaway – I went to three different surgeons, and they're like, you're not going to be able to sprint or jump or do anything if you don't have surgery. And I'm listening to them, like, there's no way, right? Like, that's just – I mean, the body is incredibly healing. It has an incredible ability to adapt. Like, there's no way that that needs to be the case. If I had to give my, like, extremely simplified process and disclaimer, I have no issues today. I can sprint. I can jump. I can do all these things. No issues at all. And it was really bad. You know, I couldn't do much at all. It was starting from square one, doing what I could do, and then slowly progressing up over about the course of a year. Build the capacity. Yeah. And I could say that about 99% of people – maybe it's high, maybe it's not. I don't think it is. If you have an issue that is not seriously, seriously structurally messed up, simply starting where you can and gradually progressing over time will probably take care of your issues. I mean, just – that is the fact of the matter. And I would feel pretty confident saying to most people. And that makes sense. I won't get too down and far in this rabbit hole, but, like, kind of what you were talking about, like the doctors saying you can never do this again. It's like – I don't mean to, like, make it bad about medicine. But, like, sometimes, like, either A, sometimes they just know their clients and they kind of – or they know their patients. But, like, I had a client who came in who, like, she went to the – I think it was, like, she went to get, like, a sprained finger. Like, she sprained her finger or something, right? And, like, the doctor said, hey, like, just don't stray train for, like, a week or something, right? And she told me, well, this gym is my therapy. I want to still, like, train. And what I found by modifying the exercise selection, oh, no, we can still get a good session out of it, even with, like, even with your, like, sprain. And so it's, like, I don't mean to shout at doctors or anything, but sometimes they're a little too conservative. They're, like, oh, yeah, like, take off this time or, like, you're never going to be able to sprint or jump again. It's, like, no. Like, the human body is resilient. Right. And, I mean, again, like, there are a million other things you can do in the presence of pain, right? Like, I'm blanking on the exact number off my head. How many joints are there in the body? 260-something? No, I don't know. I could be totally off. But, again, this is going back to, like, the Tommy John thing. Someone listening to this could think I'm a total moron. But let's say there are 300 joints. He's, like, you have one injured joint. There are 299 left. Do something. You know, like, that type of thing. So, yeah, again, I don't think it's a doctor problem. I just think it's a general thing that happens in most industries where there are extreme views taken that are, you know, somewhat ignorant. And if you're listening to this and you're hurt or whatever, like, do what you can. Gradually build up. And I am confident you will at least feel better, if not fine, eventually. It kind of goes back to what you said with the whole dogmatic view, as you had mentioned. But, anyway, so besides the whole dogmatic, what else grinds your gears? That's a good one. Like, what else do you just hate? Well, Diego knows that this is, like, my general outlook is I try to be, like, you know, there's enough trash talking and finger pointing in the industry to where I kind of just like to shrug it off for the most part and be, like, people are going to be people, you know? And this is coming from big people over myself. So I try to block out most noise and just take, you know, different viewpoints in. Things that grind my gears. I think dogmatic covers a lot of them. What else you got? I know you have something. I think, oh, yeah, I also think worms are kind of stupid sometimes. I probably haven't talked about this with you either. I don't post about it much. I've gone through every potential warm-up protocol, every system that you can imagine, right, all these different things about warming up. And by far, my conclusion is that the most effective thing you can do to warm up is actually get warm. By far. Doing something where you get, like, your body and muscle temperature up is the highest return on time that you can do. Yeah, it's like I've taken a lot of systems and they have their warms. Like, now, if you're somebody who is injured or if you need to, like, do some correctives, like, okay, fine, like, do that. But, like, I just get so bored if I do a dynamic warm-up. Like, I'm just like, can I just start training already? It's like sometimes I warm up with this beat. I do some extensive playoffs. I'm like, and I'm warm. Or maybe go to the gym. Before everyone. Last year at Ithaca, if I took a scuba pre-workout, I was already warm. I walked in the gym. I'm like, oh, if I see that, that's already firing. So, I'm like, I'm good. Yeah, you're in deep at that point. Yeah, that's a gym hack. If you're not sure if you want to work out or not, just take a scuba pre-workout and you don't have a choice. Yeah. But, no, I made a joke the other day on that topic is that the best warm-up for, what was I saying, like a bench press is pogos. And it was a half-joke, but the premise was like actually getting warm and doing something is probably the highest return on time thing that you can do. Or just maybe a warm-up set. Like, just like. Yeah. I think, like, I remember, I think it was either, it was Kyle who said it, but I think it was like whenever he programs for clients, like the 10-minute warm-up, he says, do whatever you've got to do. Especially because he coaches a lot of coaches. He's like, do whatever you've got to do for 10 minutes to be ready to go lift. Like he said, that's your warm-up. Like, especially if you're a coach who already has like a warm-up system, it's like, go ahead and just do it. Well, to take away from what PPSC said, the common thing is that, and they have their warm-up system, but their common thing is like the goal is to train. Yeah. It's not the warm-up. You know, the goal is to train. And to get to training as fast as possible, as efficiently as possible. And you've probably seen it, you know, I know lots of people say stuff like the best form for a squat is a squat. And I agree with that. Like, personally, I have to do some other stuff. I can't just like walk in. Maybe it's mental or whatever. And so I'm not the guy that's going to say if you're going to squat, just walk in and squat, you know. But I'm the guy that's going to say you don't need to do a million different exercises in order to prep. Just pick out a few things, go through them, like get some quality reps in, and then start. Or as you said, I think you said that you have to do a few things. Like, if you have to do, like, if there is a corrective or something you've got to do, like, go ahead and just do it. Like, just do it for the warm-up. But, like, let's not, but, like, that's not the main point. The point is to actually train. Right. Right. And, again, going back to our point, like, that's when you get the stimulus. So I'm not hating on any of that stuff. You know, with older populations, like, they'll feel good moving and getting into certain ranges that they wouldn't otherwise do in training. Like, I'm not hating on that. But, again, if someone is listening to this and they are unsure about the warm-up, my overall message would be to do what you need to do in a short period of time and then get to training. Yeah. And some people just like doing it. Like, I personally get bored if I do warm-up. But some people, like, actually like sort of, like, whether it's waking up in bed or like to move around or they have a routine. Like, if you like, if you do it, go ahead. Like, I'm not going to tell you to stop, but just not for everyone. No, I agree. I wrote some stuff for TNH that I look back on and kind of scoff at because I've since changed. But one of the things that I think was effective that people seem to get badly thought of was, as I said, if you're short on time and you need a warm-up, do one power movement and then one to two, like, primer movements. So the example was if you're about to bench press, you know, do some sort of a medicine ball throw and do a yoga push-up, right? Like, something as simple as that. Go through that for eight minutes. Like, you're probably going to be good to go. Yeah, I love it. I know we're coming up on the hour, so I just wanted to, I guess before we go, just, like, where can people find you if you want to be found? So main thing that I put out by far is my Instagram, which is charliegooldscc, Charlie with an E-Y. I blame my parents for that one. It's a common misspelling. That's where I put up just about all my stuff. You can see, like, the links if you want to look at different training options that I have. It's all pretty much there. I'll get some other stuff up soon, podcasts and Facebook and all that, but for now that's my main focus. Yeah, I've been telling you to start a podcast at some point. I got my gear here. I got my mic and my speakers over here in the corner. Oh, did you? Been there for a few weeks, but I'll get to it. Oh, so you've actually been planning on using it. Okay, that's good. I do. I do. Yeah, Will's probably been telling you to start a podcast. I got that because of Will, yes. All right, anyway, it was great having you on. Of course, I'll see you around. We talk a lot up here, but thanks for your time. Yeah, appreciate it, man. All right, let me just.