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The podcast discusses brainwashing, specifically in relation to slavery during the antebellum period. The guests and hosts share their backgrounds and opinions on the topic. They discuss how slavery was normalized, dehumanizing slaves and perpetuating the belief that African Americans were inferior. They also analyze a scene from the book "Kindred" where children play a slave market game, highlighting the impact of social norms on their thinking. The conversation then expands to how social norms differ across cultures and how brainwashing is used in other countries. Examples include North Korea, China under Mao Zedong, and the Soviet Union. They also touch on beauty standards and how they vary in different cultures. The discussion concludes by connecting brainwashing to social norms and analyzing the brainwashing in "Kindred". Hello, and welcome back to the Friends, Family, and Foes podcast. My name is Devin Acklar, and I'll be leading the podcast today. We are followed by two guests, Dr. Sahasra and Dr. Thaddeus, and my crew member slash co-host Connor Chee. Give it up for these people, and now let's hear your backgrounds. Hi. My name is Dr. Thaddeus. I have a Ph.D. in neuroscience, and I was at Harvard, and I'm here on this podcast today to talk about brainwashing. Hi. I'm Dr. Sahasra, and I research on how children express social norms through playing with toys. Hey, guys. I'm Connor. Like Devin said, I'm also the editor of today's podcast, so if you hear anything weird or any editing mistakes, that was probably me. Okay. So now that everyone has discussed their backgrounds, I'd love to pop a question into everybody's heads. So let's first start off with, how was slavery brainwashed citizens in the United States during the antebellum period? This period was that major time period of slavery in the South, but there was slight freedom in the North, but slaves could still escape to Canada. So I'd like to ask you guys and propose a question. While slavery has been passed down from generations and has been normalized by white people and African Americans, probably one of the biggest reasons slavery continued for so long is that it supported them economically, and people depended on them for labor. This was a really easy way to make money. People were meant to believe the social hierarchy of African Americans being less than white people. Unfortunately, slaves weren't seen as equal and were dehumanized from the start. This made it hard to escape the mindset that everyone has not, because it wasn't fair. Adding on to what Dr. Sahastra has said, throughout generations and generations of slavery, slavery was normalized by white people and children were taught to think that they were better than African Americans. It took a very long time for slavery to be abolished, and yeah. Okay. Hearing your opinions, I think that we all have a decent amount of knowledge during the antebellum period. So I remember when I was younger, I was reading a book called Kindred, and in the section The Fall by Octavia Butler, Dana, the main protagonist, on her journey, passes slave children who chased each other and shouted and didn't understand yet that they were slaves. After seeing a group of children who act out at creating their own slave market game by selling one another on a slave market, on the other hand, Kevin sees this game as a playful reiteration, saying the children just imitating what they've seen adults doing. Dana understands the game differently, arguing her opinion that is one-sided, that even the games they play are heading them for the future. What side or what opinion do you most agree with and why? I agree with Dana's opinion because I feel like that slavery has become very normalized in the time period and children are learning to accept that. And also, agreeing with Dr. Sahasra, I also agree with Dana because, as I've said before, throughout generations, even African Americans were taught the thing that their whole life was just to be a slave and that escape was basically impossible. Okay. Do you think, out of Dana and Kevin's opinions, that there is a... are they both right or are they both wrong? I think that Kevin is actually wrong because of the game that the kids were playing. They were creating, basically, a slave market game and that's basically what happened to their parents or their parents before them and it cannot be just a playful reiteration because it's what's happening to them and it was not normal that they were basically just trapped in one place for their whole life without any form of escape. I believe that Kevin is only right about the part where he says that the children are just imitating what they see, but this has more of an impact on their lives. I actually agree with you on the fact that this is an imitation, but it's a violent imitation. I feel like, in my mind, if I were to picture this game going on, it would just be kids running around and they have no clue on the severeness of that game. Connecting this to our society now, I feel like kids under the ages of, let's say, 12, even though they might play video games, I don't think most of them really understand the aspects and what the game is about. For an example, I remember when I was a kid, I was playing Call of Duty and I had no clue what the game was about. I just saw the violence in it and I just had nice adrenaline playing it. See, that was just my personal experience compared to the Kindred or this book that I read when I was a child again. Going back on this topic of slavery, how do our social norms differentiate us and our ways of thinking? Let me rephrase that if you need help with analysis. What do we do in our society that changes us and how we think compared to different people? Okay, so answering your question, social norms differentiate us and our ways of thinking because, at first, you might have a certain opinion that's different from somebody else, but then because you don't want to be different than them, you would fake that you think the same thing as them and you have the same opinion. And then throughout time, that opinion starts to actually become your opinion, even though before it wasn't. I think that social norms were created from history and that these beliefs were passed down from people and are what shapes our culture and way of thinking. People around the world have different backgrounds which influence what they might believe and think. This is why many people around the world with different cultures experience different social norms and have different perspectives of the world. Yeah, I mean, essentially, what you are used to growing up with, that's how it will shape what you view and your behaviors. I feel like an example could be the Dominican Republic and Haiti being on the same island, but they are almost like two separate worlds, where the Dominican Republic is more like a popular, rich, thriving place, while Haiti is like suffering in poverty. But even though they are in the same place, they have completely different lifestyles. I completely agree with Dr. Sahasra and my co-host, Connor Chief. I feel that culture has a very large impact on the way we think and the way we act in our society today. It is very modernized that everyone is from a certain location or place and that location or foundation has spread out all over the world. And this culture still remains, but I feel that other countries keep culture way more than some countries. For an example, Japan, I feel like, has a very strict culture and immigration is not really a big part. But I feel that the United States allows a lot of immigration. Now, how have other countries used brainwashing to control their citizens? One example of how other countries have used brainwashing to control their people is North Korea. From what we see, Kim Jong-un is basically treated like a god and other religions and other cultures are basically non-existent because people aren't even able to know about them. And another example was China during Mao Zedong's time, where kids were taught to think that Mao Zedong was a great leader even though he was the reason for multiple famines and multiple reasons of people's deaths. And, yeah. I think a similar example could also be the Soviet Union, where most of their power was based off people's perspective of them because they weren't as powerful as people thought they were. So in the end, when communism was actually failing, the Soviet Union didn't want people to know about their collapse, so they tried to stall for as long as possible and made fake propaganda about it. Also, in a way, beauty standards are also kind of used to control citizens. So a lot of Asian countries like Japan and China have beauty standards which have the desire for people to be fair-skinned or light-toned. This is heavily promoted in advertisements and products and has a big influence on people. Parents, whether consciously or not, express this idea to their children that darker-skinned people aren't as beautiful as lighter-skinned ones, and the more fairer you are, the more beautiful, almost like a hierarchy. In India, this is the main beauty feature people look for when they get married. This contrasts America a lot because America finds tan skin to be more attractive and have products like spray tan and guides like being under the sun to achieve this. Beauty standards can look different in different cultures and in a way brainwash people into believing different kind of standards. Yeah, this is off-topic, but I think spray tan looks terrible. Okay. All of your examples were very good examples on how countries brainwash their citizens into thinking a different way. That can connect with how our social norms differentiate us and our ways of thinking. Did you guys realize that sort of connection when you guys were showing examples for the countries that use brainwashing and then their culture? Yeah, I was able to see that because a lot of Asian countries, like I said, want people to be lighter-skinned while America, on the other hand, prefers tan skin. These are two very different contrasting standards which shows how social norms can look different in different places. Now, using these examples that we all have brought up to the conversation, can we create an example about the Book of Kindred on how their culture and their way of thinking was brainwashed? Okay, so one example of brainwashing in the antebellum period in Kindred was when Dana was struggling to teach Rufus about how bad slavery was and to treat African Americans the same as he treats white people. And even though she tries her best, she struggles because he spends most of his time with seeing slaves and his dad whipping slaves and he thinks of it as a normal thing. And Dana only really appears certain times in his life and disappears for multiple years and that would make it so that he would believe what's going on in his world than a random person like Dana. Does anyone want to mention the impact of violence on the way of thinking that slaves had? I mean, like, you know, slaves are just, I guess they, especially the children, they just accepted the fact that they were meant to be used and beaten. To add on, most slaves probably lived in fear because they didn't want to get hurt and being hurt was very normalized in children and as they grow up into adults, I guess. Yeah, I think all of the examples and the ways of thinking that we have brought up in this conversation relate back to the first question that I first asked you all, how was slavery brainwashed citizens in the United States in the antebellum period? This all connects like a web. Next. So Asra, this is mainly targeted to you because this is mainly for your profession of psychology. What might children reenact through dolls? Well, for example, they might have a female doll like a Barbie, take the role of cooking and taking care of children and the family or have them dress up in various clothing. And on the other hand, they might have male figures like Superman, Spiderman, go on adventures and act as heroes, fighting villains. Although this does not seem very significant, it encourages the idea that women were meant to provide and care for a family and that men are more outgoing and protective. Children are taught to think that there could be more. Children are not often taught to think that there could be more possibilities than the stereotypical gender roles society has commonly accepted. I like the amount of information you know in your profession. Therefore, I'd like to propose another question for you and possibly the entire group around us. Why is it so easy for people to accept the way of life and the rules of people? Well, from children, people have taken in the environment that society has influenced. It's difficult to question why certain things are the way they are when they have been the norm throughout one's life. You can see this in how children play with toys, especially dolls and action figures. They're able to reenact what they see in their day-to-day lives like gender roles, beauty standards, culture, and social classes. Children naturally bring these concepts into the world of their toys. Dr. Thaddeus, do you have any connections or possible add-ons? I agree with what Dr. Sahata said. It is very hard to change one's idea about society when everybody else thinks completely different from what you think. And it might be difficult because people might bully you and might make fun of you if you have different ideas. And over time, you will start to change your ideas because of other people. Based off of what you said, would anyone agree that a large dynamic or a large problem in TINGRIC, the book I mentioned from earlier, is that people normally assume that what everyone thinks is right is right. Yeah, I agree. Because that's what they have been taught was right. And unless they find a way that it was wrong, then they would assume it's right. And the adults who know that it's wrong would not want to say anything because of fear that they might get attacked. For example, Sarah, when Dana was talking about reading, she was saying how stupid it was, even though she doesn't really think that and she was just afraid of it since she might get attacked if she can read. Going back to the scene in KINDRED where Alice sees her father getting whipped and taken away because her father was a runaway slave, I feel like these type of moments when there is a large violence being committed to someone that you love, this helps to shape that idea that you're forced to believe what's right is actually right when in reality it's completely wrong. Therefore, I'd like to propose a question. How do games in general engrave ideas into children of our society's minds these days? Dr. Thaddeus, I'd like to hear you kick start this conversation. Games can engrave ideas into kids' minds because you would see it as a fun activity to do, but then in reality, even though it's very small, it's going to teach kids tiny things about life and it might also change their ideas about what they think about. Do you think these ideas are positive or negative ideas? It depends. For example, video games like Fortnite in voice chat, kids might talk bad about other people and this would teach them that it's okay to talk bad in real life too, even though it's not. And a positive example is like Minecraft would teach kids about sustainability and how people lived life in the past and also about tiny things like making redstone projects, you could actually apply that into real life. I think another example would definitely be the popular board game Monopoly, the game of capitalism teaching kids to have fun while basically robbing other people or going broke themselves. And you have kids learning finance and stuff, but also being taught that capitalism is fun when really they're just going to get robbed in the future. Just to clarify, is this a positive or a negative example? Definitely negative because kids are being tricked into thinking that capitalism is something it's not. But it would also teach kids how to handle finance. I agree with Dr. Thaddeus. Because in the future they need to know what they need and what they don't need and it might teach kids to maintain money and to not buy useless stuff. So it also has positive impacts to children. I think another positive example can be owning properties and homes. I think it's mainly, it's not a 100% positive, 100% negative, I think it's a skew of both. But it shows good and bad things. So Hostra, do you have another example of a positive or negative thing? Another game I would like to add is Naked Ladders. It's all about luck and what you get with the dice to move forward or backwards. I feel like this relates to real life because people have privileges and have better things than other people and people cannot control that. Going back to the topic about how countries brainwash citizens, how do stereotypes brainwash other people around the world to view one area? So one example is about how many people in America are taught to think that Africa is poor, which in general it is. But then they're taught to think that every single person in Africa does not live a sustainable life, which is not true. So one time I had this one guy ask me about how my life was when I was in Ethiopia and he was genuinely thinking that I lived in huts, even though that's not what actually happened, I had a house and everything. And he was genuinely surprised. Contrasting into what Dario said about Africa, people in the United States view Japan as such an advanced country that's very modernized because of their inventions and stuff they created, like bullet trains and very high tech toilets. But that's only pertaining to an area in Tokyo and life is very different in other places in Japan. Adding on, there's also how countries view the USA as sort of a place of dreams and promises, when in reality it's not. I know a person who actually took a trip to Italy in sort of a poorer town and he was communicating with the kids and they were all talking about how they wanted one day to go to the USA to achieve their dreams. And this person was like, sorry to break the news to you. I kind of disagree with what you say because I do feel like the USA has a lot of opportunities but it's probably not easy living in the United States if you're from another country. I feel like the United States, based off what you said, I think the United States has not a lot but has much more opportunities than other countries provide for their citizens. Adding on to what Sahasra said about the USA having more opportunities, even though life in America is hard and people think that, it's less hard than what it's like in other countries where people would have less opportunities for many other things. Going back to the question about how media and the internet plays with citizens around the world, how does it show a positive example of something that people should know about other people? A large influencer in media today is Mr. Beast and he's seen doing a bunch of nice things to people in need and giving them money and it teaches people to be good to others and help them. Also, to what Thaddeus said, the media can help educate people on real life issues and bring attention to things that might be hidden from one's view. Going back to the topic that Sahasra mentioned on how media can inform others, how has media informed others in the antebellum period and if they have informed others, how do they know it was correct and truthful? People basically know their factual information during the antebellum styles using newspapers and books. For example, a book Frederick Douglass wrote about slavery taught people in the north about the actual effect slavery had on African Americans and how horrible of an act it was, which was one of the main reasons people in the north and abolitionists were starting to become more popular. Thank you Dr. Thaddeus, thank you Dr. Sahasra, and thank you to my co-host Connor Chee. That is all for the Friends, Family, and Foes podcast today. We'll catch you back next time. Peace out gang!
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