ARV-E-10-19071996_Sport_Dympna Heanue_19july1996

Willie John McBride, a former rugby player, reflects on his career highlights, including winning the Five Nations Championship with Ireland, beating New Zealand with the Lions in 1971, and defeating the Springboks in South Africa in 1974. He expresses concern about the commercialization of the sport and the loss of integrity and camaraderie. McBride also talks about his current visit to Renla, Ireland with friends from South Africa and praises the beauty of the area. Leon Vogel, a former Springbok player, discusses his involvement in rugby administration and the changes in rugby in South Africa since apartheid. He highlights the unifying power of sport in the country. Vogel also compliments the beauty of Renla. Well, here we go with the interview with Willie John McBride, Jan Fouchier and Leon Vogel. Well, I was very fortunate to be around in rugby football at an era when, you know, we played at all the major countries and indeed there were a lot of Lions Tours and indeed I was lucky enough to go on five Lions Tours. So I was lucky enough to be around in that period and you can imagine that there was a lot of highlights, but probably just to pick out three highlights was when Ireland won the Five Nations Championship and I was captain of the team and indeed to be with the Lions in 71 when we beat New Zealand in New Zealand in the Test Series and indeed when we were in South Africa when I was captain in 74 and we beat the Springboks in the Test Series there. So I suppose really those are the three highlights of my career, but, you know, apart from that it's now, what, 20 years on since all that happened and when I look back really what I remember most is people and, you know, I have some marvellous friends all over the world and at this stage of my life it's just great to see them again and visit them and have them visit me, which is great. So that would probably be your most memorable tour as well? Well, I think everybody has a real pinnacle in their life and probably for me from a sporting point of view it must have been 74 when I was captain of the Lions and indeed a Lions team that was a good one and that we won. Okay, and now the usual question is who would have been the best players you've played against, say the backs, the best backs? Well, it's very difficult to pick them all out, but as you can imagine over 14 years I've played against a lot of very good players, but I think when one looks back to 71 and you had a back line of Gareth Edwards, Barry John, John Dawes, Mike Gibson, Dave Duckham, Cheryl Davis, JPR Williams, you know, how do you pick one player out of that lot? But probably the guy on that particular tour, there was a lot of people at the peak of their career, I think the guy who had everything for me as a winger was Cheryl Davis. He physically wasn't big, but he was fast, he had great change of pace, he had swerve, he had sidestep and for a small man he wasn't scared to tackle and he was just unbelievable to watch on that tour, it was really tremendous. But it's very difficult, I suppose, to isolate him from the likes of the Barry Johns and the Mike Gibsons and the Gareth Edwards, but I was very lucky and it was a privilege to play in a team with a back line like that, really. Okay, moving on to today's game, the professionalism, what do you feel about that? Yes, you know, it's another world and it's a world which I don't understand. In many ways I don't take a lot to do with rugby now. It appears to me it's being run by businessmen and it's being run for profit and all sorts of other things which I just don't understand in a game which gave me so much fun and indeed gave me so many friends. So I suppose, you know, to see the Irish team virtually go, man, all of them across the water to play rugby for money, I don't blame them, I blame the administration of the game. They should have sat down and had better planning. It's difficult to see where rugby football is going to be in five, ten years' time. I wonder, can it sustain this money or is it a short-term thing and a lot of it will fall on its face? I never see sport as a business and I certainly never see rugby football as a business. It is being used by Sky Television as a business. It's being used by businessmen now who have got in and seem to be running the game and buying clubs and this sort of thing and indeed getting very much like the soccer scene. I have never seen rugby football like that. And it saddens me because there's no doubt in my mind that players today will not have the same fun as I had and they certainly won't have the same friends because it's become selfish and it's become greedy and all the things to me that are bad in life. Talking of Sky Television, do you think that England will come back into the fold or will they go alone or what do you think? Well I think the thing that saddens me most about that is that the Southern Hemisphere as far as rugby football is concerned have been jealous of the Five Nations for over a hundred years and we have destroyed it or at least England have destroyed it themselves. I find that terrible because even if they do come back into the fold, the things that have been precious in rugby football like integrity and trust and all those lovely things have been destroyed. They'll never be the same but I'm totally amazed at what England did for a short-term game. I think it's sad that they have decided that they would do their own thing. I'm delighted in many ways that the other four countries have stuck together which the Five Nations have done for years and I hope that something can be resolved because it certainly wouldn't be the same without England and I think that it would be much healthier for rugby football in the Northern Hemisphere to be together rather than being fighting amongst each other. I think one thing I've learned about rugby, I only got into rugby since I came to this country but there's such a good like gentlemanship if you like about it and that's obviously why you've made so many friends. Well it's a tough game, it's a physical game. It's about measuring men in the toughest situation that I see on a sporting field and it's about teamwork. It's about discipline, it's about a lot of things that are very comparable with everyday living and it's about trust and integrity and all those things but I think just simply about people and it's something that I have treasured. So Willie John, what brings you to Renfrewshire? Well it's funny really that rugby football should in some ways bring me to Renfrewshire. I have a friend Leon Vogel who I played against in 1974 in South Africa, he's a Springbok and he has always wanted to come over to Ireland, at least I have sort of convinced him that he should come and have a look at my country because I've seen his country a lot over the years and he has a friend with him, Jan Fischier and funnily enough his son is a professional golfer so they came over and we spent a week in Northern Ireland and I said right let's have a look at Connemara because it's one of the areas of great beauty and the people and the atmosphere and you know it's just a special place and luckily I know my Ireland pretty well and I thought well let's take a chance, I know the weather can be terrible here but it's been absolutely superb and in many ways it's a bit like South Africa. So that's really why I'm here and we have Jan and his wife and Leon and his wife and we've been here virtually for the last week and it's been really terrific and they've enjoyed themselves and that's really what we wanted them to do. So they're going back to South Africa, maybe with a little bit of a false impression of the climate here but it's better to go back that way than to go back with the mist and the rain in their minds. But we've had a terrific time and the people have been marvellous and it's just been great. Leon, thanks very much for talking to us, Willie, Jan has just referred to you in glowing terms I must say. Would you actually have met on the playing field? Yeah, that was in 1974 when we played against them. Where was it, was it in Ireland? No, it was in South Africa. They had the Lions Tour then, 1974. And you were a winger, I believe? Yes, I played winger. And are you still involved in rugby? Yeah, on an administrative basis but with rugby changing now and so on and we stay quite far from the centre, Kimberley, that's our big centre, you know. So it's very difficult to be involved on a provincial basis but I'm still involved in rugby in South Africa. Have there been many changes since Apollo 9 has gone now? Yes, I think so. You know, cultural ways, sporting sides, you know. So I think it's done South Africa good and there was a lot of changes, yeah. And are there many Afrikaners playing in the national side? Afrikaners? Yes, the majority of rugby players in South Africa is Afrikaans because it actually started with Afrikaans people and so on. But we find now that a lot of black people start playing. We're doing quite a lot of development amongst black and other colours people and so on. And there's also a lot of English people that do play, especially from Natal. There's a lot of English-speaking persons that's in the national side as well at this stage, you know. It's about half-half. And the World Cup, was it a success in South Africa? Well, it was fantastic to see it, you know, and it was fantastic that South Africa, you know, won it. And well, it's our first World Cup we competed in, so it was a new adventure for the whole of South Africa. But I think the World Cup and the winning of it united the whole of South Africa, you know. And I think, you know, sport is a unifying factor. And when our cricket teams play as well, you know, the whole country stands behind them, you know. During the apartheid system it wasn't like that, you know, because only the whites could play national sport. But now it's over and I think sport's uniting the whole of South Africa at this stage. Yeah, I think, like you say, I think sport generally has that kind of togetherness. Yeah, it's true, yeah. I'd say it too. Okay, and so, what do you think of Renla? Of this place? Yeah. Well, it's one of the most beautiful places I've ever seen. We've only been here four days now. And it's really, it's absolutely magnificent. And I'd like to come back one day, again. Well, you are lucky, I mean, to get this kind of weather now. Well, this, when we came here, the weather started to become right, you know. Because the other two and a half weeks we just had clouds the whole time, you know, no sun. But the weather was fine and the people are friendly and it's just nice to be here. Tell me about the climate in South Africa, I'm just curious. Well, the part that we come from is the north-western part. And it's very, very dry there, you know. We get about eight inches a year. That's our rainfall. And it's very hot, you know. It goes, it's about 45, it goes over 40 degrees in summer sometimes, you know. So, and that's the whole day, you know. So, it doesn't actually cool off evenings as well, you know. But every house and every office also has air conditioning in, you know. So, that makes it bearable. Well, Liam, thank you very much for talking to us. And we hope we might see you around Van Bansum. And you might actually come up to the studio yourself. And whoever you're with, we'll have a bit of a chat. Okay, thanks a lot. Thank you. Jan, another friend of Willie John. Tell me, is this your first time to Ireland? Yeah, this is my first time to this beautiful country of yours. It's green, nice. Where did you meet Willie? Well, we met a couple of years ago. He used to come down to our place in Lyons. Great friends. And that's where we met. And every time he's coming down to South Africa, we're together for a day or two and enjoy it. I see. And I believe you have a professional golfer as a son, is that right? Yeah, I've got a son as a professional golfer, that's right. And tell me about him. Well, he played here, I think that was five or six years ago. He was still an amateur at that stage. He played in the British Amateur Championships. And he was runner-up that year. I see. And funny enough, he, himself and Penny Els, they played together for a long time. And at that specific tournament, when he was in the finals, Ernie carried for him. Really? Yeah. They'd be friends and know each other, you see. What was the name of your son? Ben Fouchier. Ben Fouchier. Yeah, Ben Fouchier, that's right. He's now in South Africa. I think the year before last year, he was under the first ten in the Sunshine Circuit that they played up there. It's now the FNB Circuit they play. I see. But he went to Canada the year before, and his scope is not so good at the moment. But he goes to do a little bit of training and get himself in good form for the FNB Tour at the end of the year. Right. So we might even see him out in the Connemara Golf Club at some stage? Maybe. I don't know. Okay. And so you're happy with your stay the last few days? Oh, it was beautiful. I enjoyed it a lot. It's beautiful people, especially the Irish people. Well, all the people, really. They're friendly and they enjoy life, you can see that. And I hope nobody will spoil that, really. Yeah. Thank you very much, Leigh-Anne, for talking to us. Okay. Nice day. Okay, just wrapping up now. Thank you very much, Willie, for talking to us. We will see you in Renfrewshire in the future, I hope. Oh, yes. You know, I've been down here before. Not exactly in Renfrewshire, but I was in Ballykenevy and Dunabway. But, oh, yes, certainly I'll be back again. If you could turn on this weather, I'll come back every year. I'll see what I can do. Okay. Just finally, talking of Ballykenevy and out there and Gliston, you must have heard of the Connemara Blacks? Oh, yes. Yes. Would you just like to say hello to them and any tips or anything you can give to them? Well, I don't think that they need any tips, but I just wish them all the best. And I hope they have a lot of fun as well. Great. Thanks very much, Willie. Thank you.