InterviewRicha

Dr. Richa Gupta is a successful doctor and head of the respiratory medicine department at Christian Medical College in India. She credits her ambition and drive to her family's support and encouragement. She faced challenges in her career due to societal expectations for women, but she worked hard to excel and prove herself. Despite facing discrimination and assumptions about her abilities, Dr. Gupta achieved her goals and is now leading one of the best departments in the country. Hello and welcome to my podcast, Coffee with a Discipline. Today I have a very special guest with me. She is my aunt, as we say in India, my Maasi, and the reason I have her is because from a very young age I have always looked up to her, basically about everything, and she just happens to be a very successful doctor right now. She is the head of department at Christian Medical College, leading one of the best departments in the country, and more than that, she is someone who has always inspired me to do better. So with that, I will actually hand it over to you, so give us a quick introduction about yourself. Hi everyone, thank you Sanjana for giving this opportunity to share some of our, you know, the problems or for that matter, the difficulties we as a women face. I believe that is what we are going to discuss. So I am Dr. Richa Gupta, I am professor and heading the department of respiratory medicine at Christian Medical College, Vellore. I have been at Vellore for last 20 years, and yeah, the journey has been pretty long. Let's see how it goes. So my first question to you would be, because we are jumping right into the interview. You grew up in a very small town, so to speak, right? Do you think that you were surrounded by people who were, who had an ambition from a career perspective? Yes, so if you took it, I, yes, that's very true. I grew in a small town called Moradabad, though it was a city, but it never had that vibe of a tier one city or so. But the environment, all the vibes at the home was absolutely different, though we belong to an agricultural family, but everybody from my grandfather to father, everyone was in a job and everybody was educated, everyone was postgraduate and above. So that environment that you have to study, that you have to, you know, gain knowledge was there from the very beginning. So yes, family environment is very good. And there were people who will push you, who will tell you, so I agree there were lots of examples in my family itself, where some of them were doing the IAS. Many of them were engineers, many of them were actually in teaching profession. So they did inspire, they did from the very beginning, my father, he also headed the department in his college and he holds various posts while he was in his job. And he inspired me very much to be someone like him. So yes, it comes from the family and it was there. So family support matters a lot, right? Because a lot of women do have aspirations. But from a very young age, if they're told that, you know, career is something secondary, and let's say marriage is supposed to be the primary aim of your life, then you do feel encumbered growing up that, okay, what's the point of having a career, right? So I agree with that completely, because in India, especially, this is what is happening. But our family was absolutely different. In fact, I would just want to quote how we were grown up. So I have two siblings, my elder sister and an elder brother, unlike the usual, my friends how things were, by the time they are, you know, 15, 16, they are in, they're going into that plus two, the mothers will tell them, come, you should learn some cooking and things like that. But our family was absolutely different. Even if my mother would call us, come and help us in kitchen, my father will actually just oppose that he would say, no, my daughters are not going to come to the kitchen, they will first study, they will read. And after that, if they have free time, they can come. So yes, family support means a lot. But having said that, I'm lucky that I had a family support, I had my father, my mother who were who inspires us and who aspired us to become what we are today. But I would say that if you do not have a family support, then you have to stand for yourself. So women are very, very strong. And we can do anything. And when I say anything, it means anything. So it is just we need to know that we are strong. And we need to stand for ourselves. So let's say when you were when you finished your, you always aspire to be a doctor, I know that about you, you always aspire to be a doctor. At what time in your life, did you think that you wanted to be a very successful doctor? And, and I'll just give you an example, I was recently speaking to a friend, and she's a doctor as well. She's recently graduated. And she's like her aspiration was that, you know, she's looking at some patients a day, she's just, you know, the scope is within that, okay, treating some patients x, y, z. I know that you do a lot more than that you you're involved in research, you are doing so many conferences, you really care about your patients, right? I know that no one else doesn't. But when did you decide what are your aspirations are in that career? Like you want to say, did you know that you wanted to be the head of the department? Do you did you know that you wanted to be working the best hospital, heading so and so research, something of that sort? So from the beginning, that was there in my mind that whatever I do, I have to excel in that. So that was there from the beginning, you can say that that was my aspiration from the beginning. Now, putting it up in Indian perspective, in our society, if a female says that she is ambitious, or she has these aspirations, she's been looked down, because females are more supposed to do family work, along with their whatever job or things they want. But on the contrary, if there is a male counterpart, who or a son, who says that I have these aspirations, and I want to become this, he will be applauded by the whole family. So that's a gross difference. And that is the reason why many of the young girls, the bright brains, they do not come up openly to say that I want to become this or that. But were you very open about your ambition from the very beginning? Yes, I was. I was. I wanted to become the best in the field that was there, because whatever I wanted to do, I wanted to excel. Having said that, while I entered in my medical school, that was not the best one, I would say, in the country, but it was one of the good schools. After going there, then I realized the importance that you have to do your specialization from the best college or the best school, because it matters a lot, it changes the perspective. And from then I would say, so in my medical school, I aspired that when I'm doing my specialization, it has to be from the best, one of the best medical schools. And that's what I did from KGMC Lucknow. So it changes quite a bit of perspective. I, while I was doing my, so you have to think, you know, you, I cannot think that I want to become a Prime Minister of India. If I want to become a Prime Minister of India, I have to lead that way. So similarly, I wanted to do excel in my medicine field. When I took my MBBS, I knew I have to do the best. So that was first stone laid. I did from one of the best colleges in country. When I did my respiratory specialization, I knew now I have to do, I have to work in one of the best institutes. And you have to lay your pathway accordingly. And I aspired and I joined one of the best hospitals in country, Christian Medical College. And after that, yes, as a woman, I had to work very hard. And you have climbed the ladder very rapidly. I have climbed the ladder. I have not rapidly, but it came with a lot of hard work. Definitely. But you did get to the top, right? Yes, I did. I am at the top. And I think your department is the best in the country. Yeah. In respiratory medicine. Yeah, that's true. So when you got there, right, I mean, OK, let's just talk about some of the challenges you faced while getting there. Like you already made it very obvious that, of course, if you were a man, it would have been easier for you to get there. Maybe less challenges. But do you want to like throw some light on that? Any specific incident where you realized for the first time that, OK, this is different for me? So I would mention two incidences. While I was doing a medical school, we never faced, you know, any discrimination because there are more women in medical than men. So we were maybe 60 percent women, 40 percent men. Now, the challenge came the very first thing, because I opted for a not so female oriented speciality, which was respiratory medicine. It was the men domain. Similarly, orthopedics and certain domains are men domain. So when I chose that and the day one, when I entered in my department, the very first one, I was the first one among the group who has the highest marks. Still, I chose in my group. I chose to do that. The very first question I was thrown on by my senior resident was, what? You're a girl. Why did you choose respiratory medicine? Were you not getting pediatrics or oxygen? I said I was getting. I chose to do a speciality. And they were just like floored by my, you know, answer. So that was the first thing when I realized, OK, there is men and women kind of a thing. Before that, probably I would say I didn't face that discrimination. So it was one episode. And then the day that happened, I knew that I have to work extra to prove myself. And during that journey, did you have to, you know, actually work harder? I have to. I have to work harder to prove that I can do. Being a woman doesn't make me weak for any kind of job a man can do. So I have to work harder. I have to prove myself. But at the same time, my colleagues probably don't have to because they were men. It was, you know, even if it was for them, it's a night duty. Do you need any help? Why do I need help? I'm capable of doing myself. The second incident I would like to quote is when I got into my job. You know, people will assume that you are made to do more of an academic kind of a work. The other things, more challenging things, you know, interventions and other things are not made for you. Oh, really? Yeah. So I was kind of cornered. But then again, you know, if challenges comes to us, we do it. And I have proven that I'm doing interventions. And recently, Sanjana is aware I'm going for my fellowship to France. So, yes, challenges do come and we have to work harder. We have to prove ourselves, which I don't think as a human being, why I have to prove myself. Yeah, definitely. Because they say that, you know, at the end of the day, your work speaks. But it's not the same because women are working harder just to get to the same level that men are already at. I agree on that. On a side note, I've actually mentioned that I remember this when I came to Vellore the first time I was 11 years old before your wedding. You took me to your hospital and later you told me that I want to speaking. It was because I was so terrified that anyone you were meeting was so terrified of you. It's like that cough, you know, that Richard Gupta is working. And you have that fear about you that sort of intimidates people because you're very confident of yourself, I believe. Yes. That time I couldn't, I didn't understand that. But now I do, because as a woman, I think when you're very confident, when you are very sure of yourself, people do get intimidated, especially men, I feel. I agree on that completely. And and they will try to, you know, do the things so that you can they can show you down. They can bring you down. Does that happen to you very often? Not very, not very often, because no, I would say not not at my workplace. The first instance, what I mentioned was the only thing, but otherwise everyone was like kind of OK. But I had lots and lots of my colleagues in northern part of the country, the same respiratory physicians. We have been talking and they are really facing bad things. I would say not at my workplace. I was confident I proved and there were people to support me, except for one or two things which I mentioned, but otherwise it's been all good. And I was lucky, I would say. But then, yes, I have to work hard. I have to prove myself again. So I interviewed another woman, I think, and she said she had been lucky. But do you think that was luck? I think it's just the way that you carry yourself, that extra effort you put that translates into luck, right? I think my prerogative is that if a woman, let's say you have a certain personality, if someone that is not as bold or as outspoken, then they are not as lucky because then they are supposed to take the grant, right? Maybe. Yes, in a way, you are right, because I don't want to name someone. But, yes, I'm a kind of a person who will work quietly and make sure the discipline is maintained. And if the things are, I won't say anything to you if the things are doing properly, I will, in fact, encourage you. But if you have done something wrong, then I'll be a totally different person. So normally I'm a quiet person. So, you know, there are certain instances of late when I was heading the department and other things where I find the admin is not very cooperative with me because I was kind of a quiet person and not involved in much of the hair and that kind of a thing. But then I knew that if I'm not getting the right thing, I just stood and I just boldly I showed what I am from inside. That was the day nobody has messed with me. Yeah, because you have that audacity to say that, to say that, right? I would say women have to show that audacity at many places to if I don't know, things are different. Like some of the female colleagues who are working, they are facing really, really bad time and. The male counterparts are not even allowing them to do certain procedures. They said, you can't do it. It is not your domain. It is men domain. So it is really hurting to listen all those stories. But so that's what I keep on encouraging women in general that, you know, at the end of the day, we have to find the audacity to sort of speak up and we are going to get a lot of flack for it. I personally get a lot of flack for it. Yeah, because to be too outspoken. But my question would be that, where do you like? Do you think that you have nurtured this audacity to speak up or was it always in you from the very beginning? Probably I have nurtured it, I would say. Exactly. You had to nurture it, right? And that is because you are very ambitious. You had to get there. So you have to do what you have to do, right? So what would be your advice to, let's say, all the young women who are working right now? It can be in any domain. It can be like a very. Yeah. So what I would say is you are capable of everything you think of. But the choices what you are making should be right choice. If you decide that I want to be this. You also think because that is what is expected from us at the cost of what? So for a female, it becomes difficult when you have to balance life as well as work. Your children, your husband and your other family members. It is expected that you have to do certain kind of work. But I would say I'm not saying that you should not have a family or this thing, but you decide whatever your ambitions are at the cost of what? And you set your limits. You set your limits. Right. Have the courage to speak out. Do not tolerate any misogyny, sexism, anything. No, you should not. You should just stand up and say, if you start taking it from day one, you will be the victim to take your whole your life. Day one. Just don't. I would say. Don't suffer in silence. Yes. Just stood up for yourself. Stand up for yourself and take a stance. But you don't have to be aggressive. You can still be in yourself being a feminine nature. You can be assertive. If I'm assertive, I will be quite aggressive anyway, because in general, I've observed this trend that if anyone is too outspoken. Yeah. So they are taken as someone, you know, everybody will look at with a different eye. I agree on that. But then Aggressive, of course, I don't have to be aggressive. I don't have to go punch someone. You can be assertive. You can be assertive in your own decent way, is what I would say. Yeah. And maintain your dignity. No one in your workplace or anywhere should pounce on your dignity. That is the first thing I would say. You should maintain your dignity. You are a woman and you maintain that dignity and don't let anyone come and put it down by no means. Just one last question. It's a little off topic, but this is for I've been getting a bunch of these because of the place I'm working at right now. There are a lot of married women. Right. And I hear these comments a lot, which really bother me sometimes that, OK, now I'm married. You know, I need to sort of look into household stuff as well and at the cost of their work. And I do believe everyone has their own choice to make. But isn't it wise to accept that? OK, now that I'm married or I have children that I have to sort of, you know, step down from my work. Isn't it a responsibility? Like, I don't know. It's a responsibility for both the parents, right? Why is it always on the mother? Do you ever feel that it was your sole responsibility? No, not in my case. I would say my husband is very, very supportive. He is he's also a respiratory physician. And both of us work equally in our house. In fact, currently, because I'm going very busy. In fact, he's doing more work, I would say, taking care of the family in terms of my kids and all more than me, because I have to travel quite a bit. But see, you have you are the one who will take the decision. You have to decide. You have to set your limits. You have to decide what is for you. If you no one else should be deciding, your husband should not be deciding. OK, now we have got a kid. Then you should cut down. No, you should be the deciding person. And you should accept the status quo, right? That just because I'm getting married, I have to sort of take that. They like, OK, now I have kids. Kids have to, of course, kids need attention. But doesn't mean that you have to sort of give up your career or step down while, you know, your partner continues to have the same trajectory. I think it is individual mind. Now, most of this, whatever decisions females are taking in our society is because of the societal norms which have been there for ages together. So how would I say it's an individual perspective? So I'll give you one small example. One of the girls in a medical school who was the topper, she took she did her post graduation in particular speciality. And after marriage, she had two beautiful girls and she left her kid. She chose for that. She said that though she was very ambitious, but she decided nobody else forced her. She decided that, you know, I wanted to be off for a job for five years until my girls are this much age. And so and then she restarted. So that was her individual choice. So I think as a woman, we should be able to decide on our own what we want and while being aware of the societal norms, because it's just not a we need to actually did you ever feel you had to challenge the norms the way that you were raising your you are using your family because I do feel, of course, I know that mother is very supportive. But did you ever feel that you had to challenge it? That no, it's OK that I'm working, that I am not spending as much time with the kids. It's fine. Guilt is of course there, but in general, it is there. But if you would say that because of quite a bit of travel now, you know that even our family members who are so close to us, they tell they tell me, why are you traveling so much? Why do you don't spend time more with that? So more than that, you get that guilt from the other people. Do the kids are happy? Exactly what I was getting at, right? That you get the guilt from other people. Yes. Even though you're very happy. And of course, you would want to spend more time with the kids, but you know what you're doing, right? You are aware you are. Yes. You have made your conscious choice, right? And it's the commentary from everyone else that bothers you. Not even bothers you, but it gives you a little guilt trip which I just shoulder off because as far as I am happy, my kids are happy, husband is happy and all my near and dear ones are happy. I'm OK with that. Plus, I want to set an example for my kids. They should be looking upon on their mother. For sure. To become what they wanted to become. I mean, your work ethic is commendable. And so if both Harshad and Aavya have that work ethic, it'll be I mean, it'll be amazing for both of them. So that's exactly what I was getting at. I think society that guilt trips you. It's not when we make our decisions. Then people will come and be like, It will take ages for us to improve. Yeah, I think it will. But society is changing and I'm I'm thinking that the girls are doing much, much better what they used to 10 years back or 15 years back. So, yes, it will change. It may take some time. All right. Thank you for doing the interview.