Alf Dubs

The speaker discusses their disappointment and depression regarding the UK government's treatment of refugees and refugee children. They mention the historical success of the Kindertransport program and the decline in support for refugees in recent years. They express optimism due to the dedication of young volunteers and the impact of public opinion. The speaker also discusses their efforts to pass amendments to protect refugee children and criticizes the government's actions. They emphasize the importance of international cooperation and a good relationship with France to address the issue of illegal crossings. They believe that political and legal challenges can make a difference and express their passion for the cause. The speaker also highlights the importance of not denigrating elected officials and the need to support public service and democracy. I'm going to read you a quote that you said. Oh my God. I'll deny it. When I was six, the UK saved my life and gave me a home and hope. I want my adopted country to live up to its proud humanitarian tradition by giving hope to the refugee children of today. We're speaking at a moment in our country's political history where the plight of refugees is as precarious as it's ever been. Can you tell me how you're feeling at the moment about the situation? Well, I vary from being disappointed to being depressed about it. After all, when I came on a Kindertransport from Prague in 1939, Britain took 10,000 children on Kindertransport from Germany, Austria and Czechoslovakia. And it seemed to work quite well. Britain was the only country, as far as I remember, even the Americans said it was additional to quota. The only country that said no. And that worked quite well. And then post-war, Britain was pretty good. Post-war, Britain was pretty good. And then, of course, it began to go wrong. And it's gone badly wrong under the present government. I think the hostility to refugees and to refugee children is very depressing. Because if our political leaders send hostile comments out, then the public go along with that. And it means the willingness of people to welcome refugees is that much less. Having said that, the willingness to accept Ukrainians has been phenomenal. Now, there are arguments about, because they're white, they're not Afghans and they're not Syrians. Nevertheless, the willingness has been phenomenal. But even before that, there was quite a lot of support, particularly for refugee children. And when the government sends out hostile signals, it's harder for the public to go along with it. So I think it's depressing that we're being negative. And I think the President and Secretary is even more negative than Priti Patel. I never thought we could get worse than that. But I think it's got even worse by what she's saying. How do you manage to remain optimistic? Do you manage to remain optimistic? Well, I suppose if I didn't, there'd be no point in continuing. But partly, no, I think the other thing is there are a lot of superb young people who work either for NGOs or work as volunteers in refugee camps. I met them in Calais. I met them on the Greek islands. And they're fantastic people who've given up a year or two of their lives as volunteers in order to help their even more vulnerable fellow human beings. And when they do that, then it'd be shabby of people like me not to continue to fight the cause in Parliament. We've had victories occasionally. Yes. And the victories are worth it. The victories are worth it. If you get one refugee child to safety, that's probably worth it. There's something in the Koran, something in, I don't know, the Old Testament or something. I'm a humanist, so I wouldn't know. But there are things that say, you know, if you give a decent life to one person, you're doing it for humanity. And I think that's what keeps me optimistic. Public opinion is important, because when I had an amendment done in 2016 about child refugees, the government said no. And then public opinion woke up to what was happening. And they saw these horrific pictures of ships sinking in the Mediterranean, of a little Syrian boy, Alan Kurdi, drowned on a Mediterranean beach. I think the British public woke up to this and realised we can do something. And there was a wave of support, and that worked its way through to Theresa May, who was then the Home Secretary. It worked its way through to her, and she summed me in to say, we propose to accept your amendment. Now, they were rather shabby about how they did it, and they kept the numbers down. Nevertheless, they did it. And I think public opinion had its part to play. Unless we deal with this internationally, we're not going to. No one country can do it on its own. It would be much better if we said we're all going to share responsibility. That's a wider political issue, which is not getting very much traction at the moment. Your latest attempt at an amendment, am I right or wrong, was in 2020 to the Brexit Bill. Well, that's right. My 2016 amendment was about unaccompanied children in Europe who didn't have any family here. The history of that was we discovered there were about 70,000 or 80,000 of them somewhere in Europe. And all we wanted was for some of them to come here. Now, however, of the children in the camps, or sleeping off in Calais after the jungle was pulled down, or on the Greek islands, quite a few of the children had family here, relatives here. And so, before Brexit, under the Dublin Treaty, the European Treaty, that said that basically a refugee child in one EU country can apply to join relatives in another. So a Syrian boy in France could apply to join an uncle in Birmingham. And that worked quite well. Not as well as it should have done, but it worked quite well. And then we were worried that once we left the EU, a disaster that that's by the way, once we left the EU, that would stop. So I got an amendment down which said that we should continue to negotiate to keep that treaty in effect going even after we left the EU. And that passed the law, it was accepted in the Commons, and it became the 2017 Act. In the 2019 Act, the government took that out. And that was pretty shabby. Oh no, we can do it under the Immigration Law as well. Afterwards, about two or three children only got here because they could stop it and there was no way forward. Without a proper legislative base. So that was very shabby of the government. If you want a little anecdote, I was actually incandescent. Because, you know, it had been passed and the government took it out. And so they summoned me to a meeting in Parliament. And I had three government ministers and seven officials, one from the Cabinet Office, against me. I was the ten to one. Anyway, so I thought, well, and they kept giving me assurances. And one of the ministers, who was the Immigration Minister, who then became Northern Ireland Secretary, who is now the Justice Secretary. He said, don't you trust me? So I looked him in the eye and said, even if I trust you, I don't trust the government. Anyway, who's to say you'll be in a job in a few weeks' time when you move to Northern Ireland? So, you know, they were shabby. They were mean. Mean-spirited about that. And, of course, with all the arguments about people crossing, channelling, things like that. If we made it possible for there to be a legal way to safety, then the traffickers wouldn't get all the business. We've got to be friends with the French. Now, there's a slight sign that the present government, for all its faults, is actually, instead of calling Macron an enemy, possibly, as our Prime Minister said some time ago, that we should actually accept that we have to be friends with the French. We are allies. We have security against all sorts of things. And cooperation with the French is the best way forward. So I think we can do that. We can cut down the number of people coming illegally. After all, in the past, these would come on the back of lorries. Now they come on the boats. Terribly dangerous. People drown. I know. And there are traffickers who make their own money out of this. And over 600 people a day, quite regularly now. But that's got to stop. It's got to become a legal way to safety. And we need to cooperate with the French to stop it. And I think a good relationship with the French is the only way forward. I think the rounder thing won't work. Because I think, legally, the government is on weak ground. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees has said, this is out of order. It's not within the Convention. We've signed the Convention. How can we ignore it? How can we do such a thing? Anyway, it's not even been properly debated. If somebody is sent to Rwanda. And they get there. And they're given refugee status. They're stuck in Rwanda. If they're not given refugee status to this day, they are. They come back. And it's ill thought out. We don't even know what the position is. It's a total breach of human rights. It's an appalling thing to do. And there are other things about the Nationality and Borders Bill, which we're also going to challenge. So a combination of political challenges and hopefully legal challenges will put a stop to some of the worst successes. And do you feel a particular fire in your gut at the moment? Any more than usual? Or has it always been the case? Well, I have to work on the fire that's there at the moment. Keep the fire alive. Well, I think I've been quite passionate about this for some time. You have. It's not just me. The point is, because of my background, I've got far more publicity. And the NGOs with whom I work have all said, get the publicity. It seems as if it's a one-person effort. It's not. A lot of people are doing it. But because I get the publicity, they think it's just me, which is unfair on all the other people who are involved, both in politics and in the NGO field. You have said before that you don't think that politics works if we denigrate the people who've been elected. That that's not a constructive way to be. Well, that's because there's an anti-MP mood. I don't like it when, on question time or any questions, somebody makes a cheap shot at MPs and the audience all applaud. Because although there are some bad people in politics, they seem to have gotten the cabinet more than anyone else, but there are some bad people in politics. There are a lot of decent politicians, or there used to be anyway, I think there still are, who believe public service and public life still matters. And if we denigrate the people making those decisions, we're just weakening the basis of our democracy. The thing is, the people who are doing the worthy stuff don't get so much publicity as the bad apples. And there are some bad apples around. And there's a wave of anti-politician hysteria now. I mean, I get a few nasty things, threats and stuff, but most of the hostility to refugees is also based on hostility to women. And it's women in public life who get much worse than men. So although I may say I've had death threats and stuff like that, and people saying, pity you survived the Holocaust and so on, but actually, women in public life get it much, much worse and I think that's horrible, that racism and misogyny all combine. And so, I'm not going to moan about my position, because there's one person who was up in court for threatening me, but apart from that, most of it's pretty feeble, pretty feeble attacks on me, and the support is great. People have wonderful, wonderful letters of support and thank you and so on, and that far outweighs the nasty stuff. But the women, I repeat myself, women get it very nasty in public life. I'm sure Diane Abbott gets more abuse than almost anybody, because she's black and she's a woman, and I think it's horrible the way the public attack women in public life, more than anybody else. You don't get disheartened by humankind's lowest ebbs. Well, it's a bit disappointing, but then I say to myself, these people are sick, these people have problems and they're working their way out by being abusive, and, you know, so what. And I occasionally quote, there's one about sitting inside the Holocaust that's come up more than once, or when there was a bombing on the Parsons Green Tube, and this is my fault because the person was allegedly an FUG, well it has nothing to do with me, but anyway. But I have to keep it in proportion. I could moan, but no, I'm not going to moan, because I feel women in public life are at the cutting edge of the nastiness that's going on, and we've got to respect the position of women in public life, and we're telling of more women in public life, and if they're being abused and murdered sometimes, that's horrible, absolutely horrible. You went into politics, let's go back to the reason that you went into politics in the first place. God, it's difficult analysing one's motives in a way that's honest, because I can't always remember. You see, I can remember things that's happened to me, but I can't always remember what I felt, if we go back to my childhood. That's how memory works for me anyway. So things, events, yes, but my feelings, so people ask me what did I feel at the time. However, I think I was passionately interested in politics from an early age. And why was that? Because, I think, because I was trying to understand why what had happened to me had happened. You were six years old when you came over on the Kindertransport. Yes. Could you tell me what you can remember of that? Okay, well, my father was Jewish, my mother wasn't, and so partly what I remember and what I learned afterwards, my father said to his cousins, if the Nazis come, I'm getting out. And they said they'll take their chance. In 1942 they were taken to Auschwitz, we discovered later. Anyway, he left as soon as the Nazis occupied Prague in March 1939. My mum tried to get out and was refused permission to leave, and so she got me on a Kindertransport. But before that, I remember when the Germans came to Prague, we had to tear a picture of President Benes out of our school books and stick in a picture of Hitler and things like that. German soldiers everywhere. Anyway, my mum, I was very lucky, in fact, as I'll explain in a minute, my mum actually got out in the end, but she was refused permission to leave. They threw her down the stairs and said, your permission to exit is not granted. And they threw her, the Nazi officials, and they threw her passport after her. And she was lying there on the floor at the bottom of the stairs, March was breaking out, it was broken, and the passport came after her. And that gave her hope. That gave her hope, because without that she didn't... Anyway, and so she managed to fiddle her way out or escape somehow, and she arrived in London the day before the war started. So that was pretty good. So I came on the Kindertransport. Anyway, and so I remember my mother seeing me off, all the parents not knowing whether they'd see their children again, Prague Station. I was six, I didn't know anybody, I was probably one of the youngest, if not the youngest, on the train. And the journey was interminable. Hard wooden seats, but at the age of six you don't mind that. And then we got to the Dutch border. When we got to the Dutch border, the older ones cheered, because they were out of reach of the Nazis. I knew it was significant, but it was a lie for me, I didn't know why. I was looking for windmills and wooden shoes, because that's what I knew about Holland. And then when through the night, it was dark, we got to the Hook of Holland, on the boat, and then to Harwich, and then to Limpopsted. Now, I was luckier than many. I think I had my father waiting for me. I think some of them had families, some didn't. So I was luckier than most. And then my father was anxious, worried about whether my mother would ever get out, and so on and so forth. And eventually she did manage to get out, and arrived in London on the 31st of August. And remember, Germany attacked Poland on the 1st of September. So she would not, if it had been a day later, she wouldn't have died. How did he have the foresight, your father? Well, because he died soon afterwards in England, he died within a year, and I always feel one should ask one's parents every question one can think of, because once they've gone, a lot of it is no longer there. Well, I don't know, because he wasn't political, but I can only surmise this, that after Germany had their annihilation of Austria in 1938, my father sent my mother to go to Vienna and find out what was going on. So she went to see some friends in Vienna, and they took her in a car to the suburbs of Vienna, kept the engine running and told her what was going on. And in those days, surveillance methods weren't that effective as they are now. But clearly they were very worried about the Gestapo overhearing them. And the Austrians, of course, were more Nazi than the Germans. And so they told her what was happening, because they started being nasty to the Jews almost immediately after the annihilation of Austria. It took a bit longer in parts of Germany, as far as I know. So I think my mother came back and said to my father, this is going to be terrible if the Nazis come. And I think that's what made him want to get out. And did he have a job here to come to? Well, it's quite complicated, yes. He was offered, a friend of his who left Central Europe years before with some money, said to my father that if you ever get out, I might be able to offer you a job. His friend had been allowed by the British government to open up a textile factory, and the British government said you can do it in an area of high unemployment. And they identified Scotland and Northern Ireland. So this chap found a dishing factory in Northern Ireland, and said to my father, if you ever get out, I'll give you a job there. So we travelled to Northern Ireland, and my father got a job there, and then he had a heart attack and died. And that left my mum not speaking much English, and me, English was my third language. Me, in Northern Ireland, she had no money, nothing. So we hung on there a bit, and then we went to Manchester, where she began scrubbing claws in a British restaurant. Do you know what British restaurants are? I think they were restaurants affiliated to factories, weren't they? Having to do with factories? Well, every factory was a war factory, but they didn't have canteens. So they set up a network of cafeterias, called British restaurants, where the workers in the war factories could go and have a midday meal. And my mum started scrubbing claws in Sheetham Hill in Manchester, in one of those. Your mother, who was presumably an intelligent, sophisticated woman. Well, anyway, she then got a bit emotional. But the reason I went to Manchester was because there were some friends she knew, refugees from Vienna who were there, and she sent me to a school run by the Czech government in exile, for Czech refugee children. So that was a boarding school, because my mum was sleeping on the sofa in her friend's flat, while she found somewhere to live. I mean, your father's death was a trauma on top of a trauma for you and your mother, presumably. Yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah, I mean, he just, he just, he went down to listen to the news, this was in Northern Ireland, and collapsed, and ambulance came and he was dead by the afternoon. I'm so sorry. Well, it's a long time ago. Do you think the things that happened to you, do you think it made you tough? I don't know. You presumably had to be resilient, maybe is a better word. Well, I don't know whether one can judge one's own resilience or not. I think what it made me do, my mum died when I was in my twenties, it made me realise that she'd had everything against her, you know, no job, no pension, nothing at all, and not speaking much English, and then she had a real problem, and she had a problem finding jobs as well. I remember she was, later on, when British Restaurants became the school meal service, and she was applying for, she had the number two job in Blackburn, and her boss moved on, and my mum acted up for six months, applied for a job and wasn't given it, nobody was appointed, acted up for another six months, applied again, and again she wasn't appointed, and she heard somebody say on the interview panel, we're not giving a job to that bloody foreigner. I'm not sure about bloody, but not giving a job to that foreigner. And she was distraught, absolutely distraught, and I wasn't old enough or mature enough to know how to be supportive. You've experienced first hand what the people you're fighting for now experience on a daily basis. Well, elements of that, yes, I think it made me realise that one has to, well, one has to believe in oneself, one has to believe one can do a few things, and I think I've learnt, it took me a long time, I wasn't mature enough, I think I was quite immature at the time, I think I've learnt that you've got to go for things, and pitch in and not hold back too much. So you went into politics because you thought if politics could be used in as negative a way as it had been by the Nazis, that there was another side to the coin. That politics might also be a way of changing things for the better, yes, I think so. It sounds awfully wise, I don't think I was that wise, but you ask me what I think, I thought. And how did you feel? So in 1979 when you were elected, was there a moment ever where you thought, I'm a refugee in the House of Commons? Yes. First of all I was surprised to be elected because I won by 300 votes, and I wasn't supposed to win, Labour was supposed to, it was 1979 and it was the year that Thatcher became Prime Minister, and there were a lot of Labour seats that the Conservatives had targeted, and they won those and more besides, the only one they didn't win was the party itself. Not because of me, but just because of the campaign and various things worked together. However, yes, I was surprised, and when I was standing up in Prime Minister's question, I was on the list of Thatcher, and I stood up and I thought to myself, I can't believe I'm doing this. I nearly forgot my question, but I can't believe this happened. And then I was put on the Public Bill Committee for the British Nationality Act, and there were 18 of us on the campaign, and there was I, a refugee, naturalised Brit, in a committee dealing with the future of British nationality, and I thought, what other country would do that? Let me go on such a committee. Do you have a survivor's guilt? No, why would you have a survivor's guilt? I'm answering my own question. No, I don't have a survivor's guilt because, look, there was an event here where Holocaust survivors of the camps were here, and I was just going around saying I looked at them and said, what's your connection? I said, I came on the Kindertransport, and they said, wonderful. I said, no, I said, look, all I did as a child was get on a train. The horrors that you went through, there's no compassion. I had it easy. But I don't think I have a survivor's guilt, no. It's important that you remember it and recall it. You know, to people who don't know, how low humanity can sink. Yeah, well, that's right. And of course, I was aware of it at an earlier age because I was thinking about it all, and I knew I'd come on a Kindertransport, but I didn't know about Nicky Winton, who organised the Kindertransport. But, you know, some of us get together. Well, most of them, not my family, but we used to get together, you know, those of us who came on a Kindertransport. We used to have little get-togethers. Those of us who were particularly friends of Nicky Winton's used to get together. But now there's just a handful of us left, you know, and some can't travel anymore, and so on. And gradually, we're all getting to work for this sort of thing. When did you first meet Nicky Winton? Well, I knew I'd come on a Kindertransport, of course, but it wasn't until he appeared on these television things. I wasn't on the first programme, but I was on the second, there were two. I met him, and then we became friends, and we got on well. He was very interested in politics, and he was a fantastic guy. Not just because he saved my life, but he was a fantastic guy in all sorts of ways. I remember when he was about 103 or 104 at his birthday party, I said, Nicky, how are you? He said, I'm fine from the neck upwards. He had a great sense of humour, and he didn't suffer fools gladly, and he was very interested in politics, and so we had a lot going for our conversations. And how old was he when he died? 106, I think. I went to his 106th birthday party, and he was fading. Then he was at his house, and he lived in Maidenhead. He was a constituent of Theresa May's, but she knew that he was Labour. Did you keep him abreast of your political...? Well, occasionally we used to meet, and occasionally we didn't. Occasionally we used to meet, and occasionally we drove out and had lunch with him, and so on. He was getting on. He would take somebody who was 100 for lunches. But we used to talk politics. He wanted to know what was going on. He had a very good, sharp curiosity about things. And he saved your life? Absolutely. Amazing. When you went into politics, was it always with the intention of making a difference to the lives of refugees, or was that something that materialised once you were in government? Well, put it this way, I was locally, I was quite involved in things to do with racial relations and racial equality, and so on. So I suppose, yeah, I suppose I came in with a human rights agenda, and with an agenda of equality, ending discrimination against black people, and so on. So it was a very short step from that to refugees. And you were an MP for nine years? 1979 to 87, yeah. I lost... I was on the dole for a year. Were you? Yeah. Were you devastated to lose your seat? Well, I half expected it, more than half, but yeah, it wasn't great. Because you're frantically busy as an MP, you're then frantically busy fighting an election, and then suddenly it's all gone, whoops. And initially you get a buzz, because all your friends invite you for meals, and then it all dies away. And the most painful thing was, when Bill Cummins was back, and there was a Queen's Speech in Parliament, and suddenly I realised I wasn't there. You know, initially after the election, nothing much happened, and then suddenly I realised, I'm not there. And you were on the dole. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you had a family to support. Well, my wife was teaching, part-time, so it wasn't a bad year. I got £31.45 a week. My goodness. But I'll tell you what happened that night. There was one thing that happened. So I signed on for the dole on the Monday after the election. And they said, well, first of all they had to fill out a form. It doesn't treat you well if you're unemployed. And they said, why are you unemployed? I said, I put in not enough votes. Anyway, they had no sense of humour. And then they said, why did you come in on Friday? Well, I said, I didn't lose my job till four o'clock on Friday morning. I was tired. Anyway, you could have come Friday afternoon. I said, I was cleaning up my office. Anyway, I appealed against their refusal, and I won the appeal. So they backdated my unemployment benefit to the Friday. It's a good time to talk about money. Has money been a motivating factor in your life in any way? I mean, having seen your mother struggle as much as she had, how has that affected you, your view? No, I don't particularly value money. No? No, I don't. I mean, look, it's easy to say that if you've got enough to eat in your house, enough for food and possibly my holiday. But I've never felt particularly much. It's funny because it's such a motivating factor for so many people in their careers, isn't it? Look, it's easy to say from the luxury of being moderately comfortable, it's easy to say money is important. And I think of people who are up against it. I mean, it was very hard for my mother because she was really no income and nothing in such a bad way. Do you remember feeling concerned about that? Yeah, I did, yes. Simply because a lot of people in your position, I've interviewed many people before who grew up in a family where money was of a concern. And it did make them very determined to make their own money. So it's interesting that you have never been motivated. I don't think so, no. Well, you know, it's hard to analyse. I mean, well, I changed jobs once and I took a 40% cut in salary because I wanted a different job. So, you know, they thought that was very difficult going to an interview and explaining why you were willing to take a 40% cut in salary. So for you, your primary concern has always been the value of what you're doing. Well, that sounds a bit pompous. Yeah, I hope so. I don't think it sounds pompous. I think what I'm asking you is what in your career has been your main motivating factor? Well, I think, I think politics has been an interest and using politics to change things for the better probably has been the thing. Yeah. As a humanist, one has to live for one's relationship with and one's contribution to other people. Because you're 89 years old and you are still going. Well, I try and justify that. Look, I keep saying to friends of mine, if there's any sign I'm losing it, you've got to tell me. Because one doesn't always know one has lost it. Okay, and I've seen people in the Lord's who have lost it and who keep going because some of the people outside press them to ask questions which they don't themselves understand. So, I said to a lot of people, you must promise to tell me if there's any sign I'm losing it or I've lost it, I'm going. Did you have any reservations about accepting a place in the Lord? Yes, I don't like titles and I believe we should be elected and I've all along voted for an elected second chamber. But on the other hand, it is an opportunity to do things, you know, and I probably couldn't have done nearly as much for refugees if I'd been in the Commons. So, yeah, I felt, yeah, I still have, I'm unhappy that we're not an elected house, even though if we were elected I wouldn't be here anymore because of my age. But, because I think it's about legitimacy, it's about accountability. And I think politicians who make decisions that affect the lives of other people should be accountable. And the accountability system in the Lord is really not there. In the Commons it's there, you've got to be re-elected and you've got your local Labour Party and so on. So I, mind you, there are enough people who know me from when I was in the Commons and so on, so they do hold me to account, but that's because of the quirk of having been an MP. So there is an element of accountability, but not the sort of accountability that perhaps there should be. So I do not like an unelected Second Chamber. Period. But you're happy with your position? Well, I'm happy because it's given me opportunities to do things. But I don't think it's good, I don't like being here, just for the sake of being here. I don't like titles and all that, I don't get a buzz out of that. I just feel that while there's an opportunity, the thing is to use it. Going back to your faith, is it a faith? Humanism, no, can't describe it. Belief, I don't know. A belief. Is it a guiding principle for you? Well, I don't know. I mean, look, humanism is a very mild thing actually. You know, it's not an aggressive form of atheism. It allows for an element of uncertainty. So I just think, I can't believe all the religious stuff. I mean, there's some chap who shouted at me in the street and said, I said, look, I'm sorry, I don't believe in God. Ah, you'll die an eternal death in the fires of hell. So I said, well, do you think your God is kind and loving? Yes. Well, if he's kind and loving, why would he send me to the eternal fires? But, you know, I think the best story, and I've got lots of anecdotes about humanism, I was speaking at an election campaign up in Yorkshire, and in the middle of the campaign they asked me to a meeting, and they had schools, I thought they were refugees, schools and faith groups, and the community groups and so on. And there was a woman, a vicar, and I wasn't used to the humanist, and I said to her, I suppose you disapprove of me being a humanist. And she said, not at all, she said graciously. You and I believe in the same thing. I just believe in God as well. When you see the plight of refugees, which you must see more first-hand than a lot of people do, does it make you question the presence of any goodness? Well, you know, I think the cliched question you can put is, you know, where was God at Auschwitz? And the Christians fumble with that one, because a God who is good wouldn't have allowed people to create Auschwitz. So then they say, well, he gave human beings the right to self-determination. But I said, by doing that, God must have known. God must have known that we could use that right to self-determination in a nasty way. So, you know, I think if you create something which then has a momentum of its own, you're responsible for that momentum. The faith groups have been terrific altogether. The faith groups have very good audiences for this. The first time I went to Calais to visit when the General was still there, there were a group of 12 of us, and that included 5 rabbis. Really? So 5 rabbis in one group. So, you know, this works. If people don't object to me being a humanist, I don't object to them having beliefs. I concede they're entitled to their beliefs, if they concede that I'm entitled to mine. Was it very upsetting, the jungle? Yeah, awful. Well, the jungle was upsetting when I went afterwards. The jungle was no longer there. It was upsetting going to Lesbos. It was upsetting. All these things were upsetting, yeah. I even went to a refugee camp in Jordan, and there are 70,000 people in this refugee camp, mainly Syrians, and it's physically much better than the others I've talked about, because it's got proper prefab buildings, it's got water, sanitation, you know, all that. But I was talking to a Syrian boy at 16, and I said, what's your position? He said, well, I've had my education at a school in the camp, and I said, I can't find a job in the camp, I can't find a job outside the camp, what do I do now? And I think the most depressing thing for refugees is lack of hope, and I think what we've got to do is to give them some hope. Do you fear growing old? Fantastic. Fear growing old? Do you mind growing older? Um... Well... No, I don't mind too much, no. There are things I wish I could do better than I used to be able to do, but at the time, I don't mind. I think, at no point in hankering after the past, that's terrible to think back and say, I wish life were like it was then. No, I think one has to make the most of where one is.