Ep 16 Reflections on Workforce Wellness

The conversation is about the importance of upholding wellness in the social work profession. The hosts discuss how personal wellness is crucial for delivering quality services and how the workforce is currently facing challenges in this area. They emphasize the need to see colleagues as whole individuals and not just as work colleagues, and to show compassion and understanding when someone is exhibiting negative behaviors. They also talk about the overall tiredness and depletion in the workforce and the importance of self-care and collective care. The lack of empathy among colleagues is identified as a negative factor affecting the well-being of the workforce. Kia ora and welcome to another episode of Bellbirds Social Work Squad, where we talk about all things social worker-y, and today I have the wonderful guest, Tate, I feel like it's really overdue that we're actually recording a podcast together, so it's about time, thank you so much for joining me today. Oh, thank you very much for having me back. And so, we were talking earlier about, oh, what are we going to talk about, and we thought that a really important topic to both of us, and something that we find ourselves talking about quite a lot, and is a big passion of what we've been trying to do in this space of Bellbird, and in all the spaces we've worked in, is around how we uphold wellness in our workforce, really, as practitioners, or people delivering services, being of service to our communities, a really critical factor is about how we stay well ourselves, and that's in terms of within ourselves, within our team, within our networks, within our organisations, whatever that might be, but actually, our own wellness is really important to being able to deliver quality to other people, right, so we thought we'd talk about that. It's an interesting topic. We often have lots of conversations, me and you, and for some reason, this seems to steer back to this whole topic around the workforce and the wellness within that, so very appropriate that I guess that we sit down and have a bit of a chat around that, and share our thoughts and views on what that looks like, as well as, I guess, probably, what does it look like for the community, and with our experiences and relationships that we have with people in the social sector at the moment. It's a topic that is very personal, but it's also something that is shared, and I often think about, there are certain topics, and grief, I think, is one of them. I remember, you know, being in a state of grief and thinking, it's an interesting concept that grief is deeply personal, and yet, it's something we all go through, and I think, you know, wellness or the challenge to our wellness in this space can feel deeply personal, and yet, it's something that lots of people experience, and sometimes, we don't bring those experiences together and show support for each other, and we kind of go through it on our own a little bit, so part of what we talk about is how do we actually work better at sharing some of that, and lifting each other up, and supporting each other, instead of it feeling like an isolated journey, and I think it's particularly interesting, as well, then, to talk about it, not only just from our personal perspective, but also, you've written this fantastic insight report recently, which looked at pro-terror community wellness across our workforce. We know that there's some stats in there that it might also be interesting to draw upon in this conversation, because all is not well in our workforce. I mean, it certainly is painting that kind of a picture within our workforce, and I guess I will get to the insight report and some of the things that were sort of discovered in there, but something that you're starting to see with a lot of people now, too, in terms of wellness is there's a lot of heaviness, taumaha, in people's personal lives, and you're starting to see a lot of it filtering into the workplace. It comes in, and it's trying to keep that separated for people is often difficult, so it's worth the conversation around what is happening here, and what can we do to actually try and support that space, especially with people. At the end of the day, as Bellbird has this magnificent motto of, it is people, it is all about people, and one thing we mustn't forget is, at the end of the day, yes, we have responsibilities, and we have roles within our jobs, but at the end of the day, we're just people. We're people that live outside of our workspace, and often, I guess, interactions and relationships in the workforce, whether it's with your colleagues, your manager, whoever it may be, tends to forget that at times. They just see the person for who they are as a work colleague, or somebody who has a role within the job, rather than looking at them as people, and that they have a life outside of that. From that can be a lot of assumption, which is really, really dangerous. Yeah, because we actually don't really know, most of the time, what's happening in someone's life. All we see is what they are showing up to work being, and I think we make assumptions, or we think that this snapshot of what we see in those eight hours of the day is a representation of the whole, but it's not, and there's a whole lot of other parts and components of who we are as people that we don't necessarily show to our colleagues, or in our workspace, and yet we're judged for one aspect of who we are, and it's a judgment that goes across our whole personality, or the person who we are, to lose sight of that. We actually don't really know, unless you walk in someone else's shoes, what they're really experiencing. I mean, at the end of the day is, you don't know everybody's story. You might know a little bit about them because they're colleagues, and you obviously build on relationships as you work, but things change for people from a day-to-day basis. If you're not sure why somebody's come in with a whole different ahua, or a whole different set of behaviours, and that, we tend to just default or jump straight to a quick judgment or an assumption of, oh, here we go, this one here is dealing with this problem again, without understanding, I guess, what's actually going on for that particular individual, can really support breakdown in relationships. We're talking very generally, of course. We're talking very broadly, and we're talking a lot from our own personal experiences. Sometimes the default can be to think negatively rather than positively, and I think what we see is people who present with behaviours, and then people are judged by those behaviours rather than by the person that they are. What we know, in terms of particularly around our mental health, is that sometimes we exhibit behaviours that are not necessarily that positive. If I'm feeling down or if I'm feeling stressed, I'm going to exhibit behaviours where I'm a little bit irritable, I'm a little bit scratchy, maybe I'm not pulling my weight, and so the response from my colleagues might be frustration, intolerance, feeling like I'm not contributing, feeling like I'm rubbing them up the wrong way, instead of necessarily coming at it from a space of compassion and care and that kind of humanity. We're responding to the behaviour, the irritant, rather than actually saying, what's going on with Rachel? How do I show some care to this and understand Rachel as the whole person? And that's where the dangerousness comes in, is around the assumption, and you hit a key point on the head there with the sets of behaviours, is we tend to, I'll just share something that we learnt through a parenting programme that I was facilitating many moons ago, and that it was always around to take the problem, not the person, which is exactly what you're talking about. So when we see people either troubled or there's a change of behaviours, we need to more sort of look at what's the problem there, rather than the person as the problem, because from there, you can create a lot of stigma around an individual or a person, or even a group or a team. It can be dangerous, but also very detrimental to, I guess, their wellbeing, so you actually are putting more pressure on their wellbeing than what their current state is. So I love that statement, to take the problem, not the person, and we often use that around children. You know, we love our children. I've never, ever met a parent that doesn't love their child or intentionally does things to hurt their children. It's the behaviours that they struggle to cope with, so, you know, when we sort of use that, I guess, as an example, is how do we actually attack the problem, which is the behaviours, rather than the person, because that seems to be the default for everybody is just to attack the person. And that's pretty tough, and I think that when we're working in an environment, as we do, we know that we work with complexity. We know that it's pretty tough work, right, like we're all tired. The workforce is tired. The workforce is depleted. We know that people are choosing to leave their professions, you know, we're underpaid, we're undervalued. There's all of this negativity on being able to deliver effectively across the services, and our ability to keep our own cup full is challenged, but then also our ability to look across to our colleagues, to our neighbours, to our friends, and worry about how they're doing as well can also be hard. When you're running around because you've got a high caseload, and you've got lots of clients who are needing your energy and your attention, there's often very little left to have that compassion and space for the people you work with as well. How well do we take care of ourselves, but also, you know, we think about self-care, but also what's our responsibility for collective care in terms of making sure that everybody around us is okay as well, because sometimes we just let people flounder, and sometimes we actually, yeah, we isolate them, or we blame them, or we make them the problem, instead of saying, actually, maybe what they did, I didn't like that behaviour, but I need to see if they're okay, or, you know, we'll get over that thing, because actually I know they're a good person, and they're doing their best, and maybe they're just stressed, and they didn't intentionally do it. Yeah, yeah, I think the workforce has definitely shifted in terms of empathy, and you used that word earlier on, is we don't tend to be as empathetic for our work colleagues as what we once were, and that obviously isn't contributing in a positive way to, I guess, the wellness of our workforce. Why do you think that that's changed? Well, that's a good question. I think people now generally have a thought in their head, like, I've got my own problems, I just can't deal with somebody else's problems on top of this as well. At the end of the day, when we are just people, is we do actually inherit problems, we inherit stress, we inherit many things in work and outside of work, but our ability to sort of be able to manage that and control that, I think, has seemed to have shifted, and I don't think people are managing that as well as they have been in the past. And is there anything that you think that has caused that shift in terms of how they're managing it? You know, I think sometimes the complexity of the farmer we're serving has changed. You know, when I think about coming in, starting my career 20-something years ago, I think that the challenges that we're facing now are more complex than probably what I was working with as a new graduate. So I think our community has changed, the needs have changed, I think the environment has changed, but I wonder if also, you know, we've changed, society has changed. There's not just one thing, there's many contributing factors, I believe, that tend to contribute to this. Definitely the needs of the community and the people that we serve has increased the need, which puts a lot more pressure on the workforce. But also, we as just people, in our own personal lives, we are often feeling, I guess, the hardship as well. You know, I guess everything seems to, financially, times are really difficult compared to what they used to be, so that's added stress in your personal life. You know, you've had those already, and then you're coming to work to serve families that are probably worse off than you are. You know, that's another contributing thing to your wellness, you know, or the lack of your wellness. So while there's many things contributing to, I guess, your overall wellness, I don't believe you can be put down to just one or two things. And that's just two examples that I've given, and there's plenty more. What are some of the things that we could maybe do to help redress these changes? You spoke about collective wellness, definitely is an approach that needs to be a responsibility of you as an individual, is how are we taking care of ourselves individually? And I'm happy to speak on my own experience of how I sort of manage this for myself. I find my thing that sort of keeps me in my happy place, my well, my place where I just seem to shuttle from everything, you know, within life. I'll tell you how long ago was this, probably about 17 years ago, I actually found something for me. It just landed on my lap, thanks to my wife, actually. Well, she came home from a home and garden show one day with this big square white brick, and I was like, what is that? And she says, I don't know. I just brought it home. They were giving it away down there. She says, I thought you might want to just make something out of it. So 17 years ago, I thought, OK, let's have a go at this. I started shaping and carving this piece of whatever it was. I didn't even know what it was. It just looked like a stone, and I enjoyed it. I actually really liked it, and I got right into it. 17 years on now, I'm actually doing a lot of stone work, and not only because I enjoy it, but I do it as part of my own wellness. It keeps me safe in terms of pulling my mind away from everything that's going on in my life, whether it's busy, whether it's stressful, and it just takes me away from that, where in that moment, I'm just focusing on this piece of stone that's in front of me and then shape it into something. So my creativity in that is allowing me to sort of, I guess, escape the pressures for a moment, and it's enough time for me to breathe and catch my breath, and then I'll go back into my work. So I found that as a really successful tool for me to be able to keep myself well. And I think it's important people need to find that for them, and everybody's different, so only they can say what is going to work for them. And that's from an individual perspective, is find something that works really well for you to keep yourself safe and well. And then there's that collective responsibility. And when we say collective, it's at home, you have a family. For those that have a really good family, it's are we supportive of each other in that space? How was your day? Is there anything that I can do to help you? You look pretty down today, do you want to tell me about that? Just, I guess, being there for them, for family members and that in a personal space can help, knowing that somebody's there to support you. And we can also do the same in the context of our workplace, in our work colleagues. We spoke about it earlier on, when somebody comes in, you can see their trouble. We just need to take the time and, I guess, fully understand how much of an impact that collective wellness could have for our team colleague if we just take that time to be able to just check in on them and, how are you? You know, are you OK? I noticed that you don't look so well today. Is there anything I can do to help? And you never know. You don't have to ask them details or the story or what's going on, but just checking in on them can mean a lot to people. That genuine care. I had a conversation with somebody the other day and I was asking exactly that, like, how are you and how are you feeling? And her response to me was that she felt like nobody actually, on a day-to-day basis, actually asked her how she was. Like, people kind of go, oh, hi, how are you? You know, we say, yeah, yeah, we're fine. But actually, that's not a genuine question. That's just a way of saying hello, right? Like, and that it was only when I was asking her, but, you know, how are you really? Like, how's everything going? And showing kind of genuine interest in that. So she reflected. She was like, I don't think someone's actually asked me how I am for quite a long time. And you think, actually, that's not very good. We all need to be cared about. We need, you know, we're social creatures at the end of the day. And yes, we've got families and we've got friends. Work is not the only place where we have relationships and connections, but it is a place where we should have a care and a responsibility for each other. And it can be genuinely saying, how are you? We also can show collective care by saying, can I help you with that? Is there something I can do to support you? Managers, we can say, do you need support with your caseload? How's your workload? Do you need time off? Whatever that might be when people are not having a great time. Because the thing about self-care is that I know that exercise is good for me. I know that eating healthily is good for me. I know that fresh air is good for me. I know that social contact is good for me. And when I'm feeling a bit down and I'm feeling not in a good, healthy space, they are the last things I feel like doing. I do not want to go outside and see people. I don't want to do exercise. I want to sit on my couch in my pajamas and watch television and, you know, all the stuff that's unhealthy. Because actually, when we're well, it's easy to do the things that keep us well. But when we're not in a space of feeling that great, sometimes we need other people to help us find our journey back to wellness. Because it's a really hard thing to do by yourself to get that motivation to go to the gym or go and, you know, whatever. Because that's a tough ask. So I kind of get frustrated when people say, oh, self-care, it's your responsibility. And then if you're not coping, it's kind of like, well, you're not coping. You're not looking after yourself very well. And we sort of absolve ourselves of any responsibility to be part of that journey with them, knowing full well that people who are, you know, having some challenges, it's really hard to do the things back to a state of health. In the same way as, you know, we have much more understanding for physical health. If I broke my leg, you know, I have broken my ankle and I've had all sorts of issues with my ankle, to get back to health, I have seen a physio. I've had surgery. I have crutches. I have, you know, there's a whole support structure around helping me get back to a space of being able to walk comfortably and be healthy. But if in my soul, in my mind, in my emotions, I'm not well, I'm expected to do it by myself. I think we let each other down a little bit when we retract rather than lean into trying to be there for people, particularly in a workspace, which we know is already having to manage a challenging environment in which we work. We give all day. We are in service all day. Something's got to help prop you back up again. And you've just highlighted, I guess, the importance of that collective care. Sometimes you're not motivated and you just want to shut down or be left alone. And I guess, too, another thing is you could use those times as, what are your motivators? As opposed to sitting there and sitting down, being left alone to watch Netflix or whatever it may be, is what's wrong with that? You know, what's wrong with that? Until you're in a space to be able to say, OK, I'm off the couch now. Netflix is over here. It's been a week. I thought maybe I should move. Yeah, but for sure, we've got to be better at collective care. Not be ignorant to, you know, you spoke about when a colleague comes in, oh, how are you? Good. She said good, so she must be good. But in the context of how they've said good, I mean, you must know that, actually, there wasn't a really good response in the way she said good. You know, whereas I'm great. I'm fine. Thanks. Yeah, thanks for asking. Totally two different responses. Yet we will take the easy road and just say, sure, she's good. She's fine. Cool. That's right. We let ourselves off the hook. Let ourselves off the hook. You know, and people go, yeah, I'm fine. I'm fine. And part of that is because we haven't created an environment where people feel safe to be vulnerable. Yep. But actually, I have to be fine. I'm going to be fine. I'm going to be fine. Because if I actually tell you how I feel, then maybe that's not a safe thing to do. Yeah. Because I don't know how you're going to respond to that. And nobody likes, you know, to expose their weaknesses, if that's how they, you know, perceive it to be. They don't want to, I guess, share for the fact that this might be viewed as another negative, that they might think I'm actually weak or I'm useless. Like, you know, it could be seen that it could reflect negatively on them as another negative, which is another reason why people are reluctant to sort of open themselves up to those, I guess, those vulnerabilities and that. Yeah. And I think that goes both ways. Not only reluctant to open themselves up to vulnerabilities, but also reluctant to ask the question of others, too. And so we become that little bit more separate. It's like, oh, she said she's good, so I don't have to ask. Because also, I don't want to be vulnerable because if she starts telling me how she is, I don't know how to respond to that or what to do with it. Because actually, I'm barely keeping myself afloat over here. We all kind of become a little bit self-motivating, I guess. We're just kind of focused on what we need to do and how we're going to get through the day. And we're not saying that every workplace is like this or that everybody is like this. We're just talking very generally at some of the challenges. And I guess the reason why we're talking generally is because the stats that you've been looking at show that this is something that's really prevalent across our workforce. It's not just the odd person here or there that's experiencing a bit of burnout or a bit of stress. Actually, it's really quite common. And if we don't do something about it, we're going to be in a pickle. Yeah, and I think at that stage, we were in a bit of a pickle. The workforce is very fatigued. They're under stress. If you were fortunate enough to take a look at that Insight report, I encourage you to have a look at it and see what the local workforce here is saying in regards to their wellness and their workspace. And we didn't want to be able to sort of bring these insights to the surface. We didn't want it to reflect negatively on organisations or companies that they're working for. We actually really wanted to know from their own personal views is how well are they in their work. And that doesn't mean that it's a reflection of the workplace is not a good place to work or they don't do anything to support my wellness. That was never the intention of this report. We were really wanting to just gather an insight on what the current status is. Tired workforce. We've got a really ageing workforce in the sector of community service and support here. It's the largest workforce here in Rotorua and actually in the Bay of Plenty. It has the most employed staff across any sector. And when you've got a workforce that is fatigued, stressed, a lot of them indicated through surveys and that the workloads are huge, heavy and that is how do we actually reprieve that? How do we actually look at what can we do to actually make things easier or more supported so our workforce feels more supported and safer to be able to do the job to the best of their ability? And that's the big question that's come out of that report. So while there was a lot of information and data and statistics that come out of that insight report, I must say I wasn't surprised. And we hear it quite often among different people that we come in contact with in the sector. And it wasn't a surprise. But what is a surprise is a lack of support or contributions to actually focus on that space. And create change. And create change. Because absolutely, the purpose is not to be critical. But at the same time, we need to be very honest and transparent. And we do need to kind of grasp the nettle that we have a problem. And if we don't address it, then the problem is not going to get any better. It's going to get worse. We have people who are aging out of the workforce, like you say. One of the biggest factors of people leaving our workforce in terms of health and social services is retirement. We have a lot of people who are leaving the end of their careers. We have a massive shortage of people coming in at the start of their careers. Our new graduate numbers are plummeting. So we don't have the same amount of people coming in in the start of their careers we have who are leaving it. We also have one of the highest levels of burnout across the Bay of Plenty. And we've got people leaving the workforce and doing jobs completely outside of the sector. It's not just that we've got moving deck chairs and we can say, well, just because they left one organization and gone to another organization, we're all still part of a community. We have people who are completely changing their careers and not doing the same work at all. So we have by far more people leaving the workforce than coming into it. And yet we also acknowledge that we've got a much more complex environment in which we're working in and that the needs of the farmer we serve is getting more complicated. So that is kind of our hotbed of stress and difficulty and challenge that we need to be kind of working on now or we're going to end up with no services eventually. Yeah, I think it's fair to say that we're in that pickle at the moment. And, you know, it's not to say that it can't be recoverable, that we can't actually prevent things from worsening. We can improve our workforce situation in terms of their wellness, fatigue, stress, burnout, workloads, and so on. That can be improved. But I think the clear message, and we need to actually really take note of this, is what are we doing about it as individuals? We can start as individuals. What are we actually doing about it to make ourselves a bit more well within our workforce? And also the collective responsibility. We're colleagues. Organisations have to take more of a responsibility to be able to ensure that their staff are well. So the risk in not addressing those things, and we're starting to see some of it come through now, is we spoke about, you know, we have an ageing workforce starting to retire. The numbers of new graduates coming in, particularly in the social sector, have reduced significantly. There seems to be an increase of unregulated or unqualified staff that are beginning to actually work within the space. The question needs to be asked, is this the answer long term? It might be a good gap filler in the meantime, because, you know, having somebody is better than having nobody. But at the end of the day, there's a lot of risk, a lot of danger, and it comes with that. And are we saying then that it's OK for our community to get the support from an unskilled workforce? Because that's where we're steering at the moment, which is very concerning. So I'm just going to pick up on a couple of words that you mentioned there, because we talk about an unqualified, unregulated workforce, but you also talked about unskilled. I think there's a space and there's a place for unskilled. And when we say unskilled, we've got to be very careful when using those words, too, because everybody has skills. While we have a growing need in the complexities of whānau needs and that too, those needs are different and require different sets of skills. I guess the concern is the complex and deep issues that really require qualified and trained staff to be able to deal with. And there's also a place, though, for those that—and I'm going to put this into, I guess, the space of te ao Māori, kaupapa Māori, and then you have that clinical versus cultural. OK, so, and this is where I'm very careful around saying unskilled. Yes, unskilled in a clinical space, our cultural are very, very skilled in how to actually manage and deal with their people. So two different spectrums here. We need both. But I guess what we're trying to highlight is when we have people that have really good cultural skills around whānau needs and they're trying to deal with a complex situation around the needs of a whānau or an individual that may have high, say, mental health needs, whatever it might be, that requires that skilled or trained professional, OK, is crossing those boundaries. But then we also have the other side is we have these skilled clinicians that are really trained, and they're actually trying to come over and work in, I guess, in a space, too, that's—it's not a fuss at times. You're hitting the jackpot if you've got somebody who's very clinical and has a very good, strong cultural background and knowledge base. It's because they're able to, you know, preferably be able to navigate between the two. But I think the concern is when we've got them crossing over and they're dealing with issues probably outside of what their skill sets are able to deal with is a concern. Usually put. Because within that as well, when we are working outside of scope, that's hugely stressful actually on us. And that's a big part of feeling potentially unsafe or overwhelmed or like we've got too much work because if we're working in a space where we're out of scope, if I'm dealing with people for whom I've not got the skills or I'm not the right fit, I'm not the right person, that's not fulfilling for me as a practitioner. I know I'm not doing a quality job. I'm not making—helping Batsano make the changes that they need to make in their life. You know, all of that is not—it's just not good, right? It's entirely unsatisfying. It's unfulfilling. It's very stressful. It's potentially quite damaging, potentially quite dangerous. But even on a basic level, it's just not a great job to be in. So being really mindful of where we sit and what our scope of practice is is really important as part of that kind of collective care and being able to say, this is where I feel I fit and maybe this is not playing to my strengths, right? And having a space where it actually is safe to say that and do that, rather than kind of sometimes feeling like there's an expectation to operate in a way that probably I shouldn't be operating in. Yes, let's sum that up. We've got to be brutally honest, too, as knowing our capabilities and putting the whānau at the forefront in terms of, am I going to meet their need with my skill sets or with my knowledge base? We have to be brutally honest because at the end of the day, we're there to serve the community. And if we are actually not serving them in a way that is not meeting the mark, we have to be brutally honest with it and say, well, actually, that's outside of my scope, like you said. You need to acknowledge our capabilities in that as well. Yeah, and that's part of being a community response, right? Because actually, I might be able to offer something over here, but I'm not the right person over there, but somebody else is the right person for over there. And actually, it's not about me and my ego and having to be the right person for everybody because I'm never going to be the right person for everybody. But it is about knowing how we support each other, how we work together, and how we lift each other up to be able to be the best that we can be. And that's part of that kind of sense of community. Whereas at times when we're under stress and we become that isolated group, we become a little bit competitive. We get a little bit judgy. And instead of having a robust conversation that says, actually, I don't think I'm the right person for this funnel or for this piece of work. I think somebody else should take over. Other people are going, well, who are they? They shouldn't be doing that. They shouldn't be doing that. And we look over the fence and we judge each other instead of having a safe and robust conversation that says, so who is the right person? How do we best serve this funnel? Because it's not actually about us. It's about the funnel. And we're just people. At the end of the day, literally, we're just people. We're doing our best with what we've got and what we have available to us. And everybody's trying to do their best. But I think we forget that we lose that humanity. That's funny. It seems like we've gone around in full circle and we've come right back to our starting point where it is people. We're just people at the end of the day. And I think it's been an awesome conversation where we've gone with it, sharing thoughts and ideas around the current situation from an individual collective perspective. We've gone into looking at the insights and what's that telling us. And now we've come full circle around and straight back to we're just people at the end of the day. And you're right. We are trying to do our best. You can't fault anybody for trying to do our best. But being brutally honest, we need to ask ourselves, are we doing our best? And when I say, are we doing our best, it's am I showing more empathy for my work colleagues? Am I trying to understand them more rather than judge them? Can I be more supportive of them, just like I am with my clients and the whanau that I work with? You know, having that approach is we need to actually try and get back to, I don't know, how we traditionally were in a workspace. And I'm not saying it's always been peaches and cream and that, but I do feel that it has actually gotten worse in terms of workplace wellness. I think we've lost sight of the importance of failure and what that actually offers. I'm a massive Star Wars fanatic and I love it. You know, Yoda, the character in there, this master Jedi, he shares this amazing quote and he speaks of failure and he says, to be a master in all things, the greatest teacher is failure. So you'll be a master at nothing without failure. So we lose sight of, I guess, the real importance that failure can teach us. But we've really built this mindset that it's not okay to fail. It's, I can't be seen as, oh, I did that wrong. Where's that come from? Got to be able to sort of develop ourselves back into a safe to fail mindset within our work, within our homes. The problem is, is when we make the same mistake over and over again, that's the problem. Yeah, when we're not learning. Yeah, when we're not learning. So I'm a true believer in failure. And a lot of the work that we do around innovation and working in the previous roles is around prototyping and a lot of those fail. But we actually get there and without those prototyping, we may never have got there. So we have to develop that sense of being able to fail is okay. I guess here's the opportunity to try and make one small change. You know, if we can all shift one thing, maybe we can help turn that corner into a healthier workforce. Oh, and I think that's a really good positive note to finish on. Just to be kind, as hard as it may be, it's the little things that can matter. You know, and they don't have to be big shifts and changes and everything. But the simple, small things that you may be able to sort of implement on a day to day basis amongst your colleagues, even at home and your own, is how was your day? How are you? And are you feeling? I hope you're feeling well. And just simple, small things. And rather than defaulting to our assumptions and building negative stereotypes or stigma of people, literally take their time, you know, a few seconds, a few questions to ask how they are. Is there anything I can help with? As simple as that. What a good way to end. Be kind. The importance for people to actually recognise that, you know, without our workforce, we don't have services. We can't help make change in our community. Our workforce are a critical factor and they need to be looked after. And we're all responsible for that. So thank you so much for your time. Thank you very much. Thank you.