Tamara Winfrey Harris Interview

Tamara Winfrey Harris, author of "The Black Woman's Guide to Getting Free," discusses her inspiration for writing the book and the concept of freedom. She emphasizes the importance of sisterhood and working together to overcome the challenges faced by marginalized individuals. Harris also touches on her experience in the Alpha Kappa Alpha sorority and the strong sense of community it provides. She challenges the perception of the Midwest as predominantly white and rural, highlighting its diversity and the need to see and acknowledge the people who live there. Harris also shares her personal journey of finding community and feeling free in different cities. She emphasizes the importance of pursuing one's passions and connecting with like-minded individuals. Welcome to Fat Chicks on Top. You are here with your host, Auntie Vice, and it's good to be here. I am here today with an extraordinary author, bestseller, columnist, speaker. She's amazing. She's got a new book coming out, The Black Woman's Guide to Getting Free. Welcome to Tamara Winfrey Harris. Hello. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for coming on the show, and congratulations on the new book. Thank you. This is the third in a series—well, not necessarily, but this is your third book out. Its early reviews are excellent. What inspired you to write this one after your last two? Well, you know, it's a question that came up when I was touring with my last book. One of the last things I say—the book is called Dear Black Girl—is that we will get free together. And in saying that, I meant that, you know, young women, girls, you know, older women, it's, you know, through sisterhood and working together and honoring each other's humanity that we can get free. And I was in, like, a book event, and a woman asked me, well, how exactly are we supposed to do that? How are we supposed to do that when there's still all these—you know, there's sexism and racism and homophobia. There's all these things that are aligned against us, especially if we have multiple overlapping identities, right, that make us marginalized. So exactly how are we supposed to pull off getting free? And so this book is kind of the answer to that question. That's awesome. And before we get it, you have six pillars towards getting free. What does freedom look like to you? What does that actually mean? So for me, and one of the things I say in the book is that freedom is very personal for everyone. And I can't tell you what freedom feels like for you. But for me, it's, you know, when I feel happy, healthy, safe, and free, or rather, when I feel like I have the freedom to achieve, to do what I need to do to achieve all of those things for me and for the people that I care about. So when do you feel happy and free to achieve what you need to achieve? Because I'm assuming that's not a daily occurrence, necessarily. No. I mean, I feel freest, and I think I say this in the book, that when I'm in the company of women, in particular when I'm in the company of other Black women, but all women, really, those are some of the times when I feel like I can be my authentic self and work towards my own health, happiness, freedom, and all of those things. So I can show up as my full self, and I don't need to explain myself. I don't need to apologize about any part of my identity. I can just be, which is really powerful, and it's something that we don't get a chance to do often, unfortunately. It's true. So speaking about being around Black women and striving to be your authentic self, you were in Alpha Kappa Alpha. You were part of that sisterhood, and we haven't had many folks on the show who are part of the Greek system. So when you were in university, what made you think, I want to go into the Greek system? Well, I actually did not pledge until after I graduated, after undergrad. I pledged a graduate chapter, and it was in part because my mother was also a member of the Divine Nine and Alpha Kappa Alpha. So I saw what it allowed her to do. I saw the sisterhood that she had with other women that I also knew that were in Alpha Kappa Alpha. So I saw that and wanted to enjoy that for myself. What was it that you saw? Because if you haven't been part of that system, and specifically AKA, because I worked a lot with the chapter out here in California, in Sacramento. It is a different type of sisterhood. It's not just about doing keggers and, you know, Greek week on campus. Yes. So, you know, one of the things that I found most powerful, you know, as someone who pledged after college, is that you can show up anywhere. Like, I moved from Chicago to Indianapolis and show up a place and know that you have sisters there who care about, you know, whether are you comfortable in your home? Do you know who you need to know in the city to find a job? Do you, you know, are you being cared for? Like, you kind of have these automatic sisters who care about you and also can make connections for and with you. Which, again, like, it's so easy to be disconnected and to know that you're coming to a new place, even if there's not family there, that you have people who will put their arms around you. It's really powerful. And then just then also the ability to give back to community and to do service projects and really get involved also was powerful. Awesome. You talk about moving from, you know, moving around from cities in the Midwest. One of the things you've written about is that we forget that we have black folk in the Midwest. Yes. Right? Those fly over to states. So, what was it like growing up in the Midwest as a black girl? I mean, I loved it. And one of the things that some people might be surprised about is, I mean, the city where I grew up is vastly predominantly a black city, which, if you listen to people's rhetoric about the Midwest, you would think didn't exist. Because, you know, when people talk about the Midwest, it's like this vast expanse of whiteness and flags and guns and, you know, a certain sort of culture that does not include all of the people of color that I know that live here. So, I mean, I had a lovely childhood. And I don't ever talk about my home as a flyover state because many of us, like, are actually settled here. Actually, more black people in the Midwest than on the West Coast and Northeast combined. And so, for an area that people think about as being very white, there are many of us here who have contributed to the culture, and I think it's important that people remember that. Well, and I think one of the things that gets left out of a lot of our dialogue around, you know, there's this concept of what America is. And in talking about the Midwest as majority white and rural really misses the point. So, when you read these national narratives and you're part of these discussions through major publications that you've been in, what are you hoping to change about the perception of Middle America? I want people to understand its richness and understand its diversity. Now, surely, I realize there are many, many places in the Midwest that we wouldn't look at and see them as being very ethnically or racially diverse. But the Midwest as a whole is very different. It's different in terms of landscape. I mean, there are urban areas, there are suburban areas, there are rural areas. That shouldn't surprise anyone. But more and more when I talk to people, even in this country, who don't live in the Midwest, they do seem surprised by that fact. And I think, you know, right now where it seems there's so many fights we're going to have to have about humanity and about our rights, it doesn't help if you don't truly see the people that you're fighting alongside or you're seeking to help. So, you're not going to change anything in the Midwest, and there's a lot in the Midwest that needs changing, unless you actually see the people here and acknowledge us. So, how has been finding community where you feel free in the different cities you've lived in in the Midwest? I have to say it took me a little longer here. I live in central Indiana. And I think, you know, one thing that is true about, you know, some smaller cities in the Midwest is that, you know, very many people, you know, it's not like when I lived in Chicago where there's so many people not from there. So, you're kind of like a city of transplants. You know, I feel like in the current place where I live, you know, there are a lot of people. I grew up here. I went to high school here. I married someone from here. I have my family and my friends, and I always feel it felt like to me a little harder to find your people. But it really started by my following the things that I really love and seeking community with the people I found there. And I had this wonderful opportunity to do yoga teacher training with a group that specifically did it for people of color, which, you know, allowed me to connect with other people who were like-minded and, you know, who like to hit a downward dog now and again, just like I do. And like read the Bhagavad Gita and all that good stuff. And so, you know, I think that's true of any place you go. Do the stuff that you love and that really nourishes you and makes you feel free, and then you will find other people of like-mind. Well, and I love that you bring up you can do a yogi training specifically for people of color in the Midwest because that's, you know, when those of us who live on the coast think about it, that's not something you think you could find. Right. And it was taught by two amazing yoga teachers with like who are internationals, Ralph Gates and Nikki Myers, the program called Communities Rising. And it was fantastic. And you're right. I think most people would be surprised. Also took my Reiki training here in the Midwest with a bunch of other black women. And I think that's such an important thing because people will, especially for folks who think about transplanting, who may not want to live where they're at. It can be very intimidating to think of trying to find community. I know in where I'm at in California, we're a very conservative area known to be a very white area. And my partner is black. And so like every time he and other black folks get together, like, oh, my God, there's more than one of us up here. This is amazing. But that, you know, that wasn't the perception when any of them moved up here. Right. And I think people forget that, too. I think I think when you flatten kind of what the Midwest looks like, it also flattens what other places look like. Right. Because, you know, people forget there's some very conservative areas of California. You know, and other places that we of New York, you know, places that we otherwise think of as wildly liberal. Exactly, exactly. And it flattens the experience that we all have. Right. It's much more complex. And on complex experiences, you talk about authenticity a lot. And that's become kind of a buzzword lately for a lot of folks. So for you, what does it mean to be truly authentic? Like, well, I can tell you one thing. It doesn't mean that, OK, I just get to show up wherever I want, exactly how I want. You know, I always say, you know, for a while, everyone was like, I want you to bring your full self to like work. And I'm like, you don't want my full self at work. Right. That's a lot of things about my full self you want at work. But what is true is I shouldn't have to change the basics of my identity in order to fit in in a workplace or anywhere else. You know, I should be able to show up with the hair that grows out of my head and that makes me comfortable. And it's OK. And it shouldn't be deemed unprofessional. It means I can show up in, you know, all the ways that my black womanhood dictates. And it's OK. And I don't need to change for that, obviously. Yes, professionalism. And, you know, I should probably keep my shoes on in the boardroom. But the things that are basic to me and important to me, you know, I can show up like that and be my full self in that way. I like that you bring it up. You don't want to necessarily have somebody's full self at work. It's OK to have boundaries if you're authentic. Right. Yeah. I mean, I think so. I mean, I mean, there is time and play like I'm not. Yeah. I mean, I think it's OK to have boundaries. And, you know, that leads into the other part that I talk about in the book is then you get to decide because you understand your authentic self. Then you get to decide which places you want to adjust that authentic self. And you do that from a place of freedom, you know. So, you know, I may walk in, you know, I may, you know, exist in a workplace where wearing locks, which I do, is not OK. Well, I wouldn't do that if someone told me that I had to change my hair in order to get a job. I wouldn't do it in part because I don't have to. And that's a privilege, right? But I do know other people who are like, I don't care about that. And I'm willing, even though I would like to wear a particular natural style, if I want the job bad enough, I'll change it. And both of those are valid responses. But you get to you get to decide. You get to decide what's a hard boundary and what's not a hard boundary. Well, and with that deciding, you bring up the privilege of being able to decide that some of us don't have the financial wherewithal to walk away from a space that says you can't be who you are. Exactly. Yeah. And no one should feel like a sellout because they're making the changes that they have to make to support themselves and their family. Exactly. Exactly. So when you talk about finding your authentic self, this is such a struggle for so many folks is we grow up with all of these expectations of who we should be, what we should want. And how do you start that unpacking process from, well, I know I should want to be married. I should want the white pink, it sounds like I should want children to. This is who I am, especially if what you want actually aligns with the shoulds. Well, the first and first of all, I would say, get rid of the shoulds. So stop thinking that you should be anything because that's part of the problem. Right. Which is why the first pillar is kind of recognizing the distortion, because society and culture put a lot of shoulds in our heads. And most of them are completely arbitrary. I mean, they're just whatever is in. They're completely arbitrary. So you have to recognize what mechanisms are in place that teach you those shoulds so you see them. And then the next step is figuring out if you ignore all of that, then who are you? And so it really requires a lot of introspection because I've talked to many, many women who like really wanted to get married until they were married and realized, I don't want to be married. I don't like it, you know. But that's what everyone said I should do because that's what's respectable. And that's what, you know, how women show their value. And so I worked really hard to get it. And now I got it and I don't want it. So I think part of it is being really introspective and learning what gives you joy and learning what diminishes you so that you can seek those things out to give you joy and life and inspiration. And you know what those are because those things will take you closer to your authentic self. How do you know what's bringing you joy versus what's just bringing you closer into alignment with society's expectations so you are experiencing less friction? It's hard. I love the way you said that. And it's super hard because sometimes it's like there's like a thin line between those two things, right? I mean, I even write about in the book how, you know, I tend to be achievement minded. And so it's very easy to get stuck in a place where you're a human doing and not a human being. And I find this with a lot of Black women. It's like, OK, I got to do this and I'm on this committee and I'm in this group and I'm doing this thing. And like, you know, we're achieving because, you know, in part because we grew up hearing you have to be twice as good or three times as good. And we have to show people that we're not what they say we are. And so sometimes it becomes really difficult to know, do I want to be on that board or get that job or buy that thing because I really want it? Or because of all that other stuff. And I don't know whether I have a really good answer to that, because I find myself in those situations a lot where it's like, you know, I'm working really hard for this and I forgot exactly why I'm doing it. I forgot exactly why I wanted to do this. I'm just kind of carried along on the momentum. So I think the best thing we can do is keep interrogating those things, keep interrogating what you think you want and how working towards the things you want really feel, like how they feel in your body, how they feel in your mind. You know, if you're a member of some group or some hobby and over time it feels like a burden. Well, then maybe it's time to think about whether you really want to do that. Whether it's a church or a relationship or a job or whatever, to keep interrogating why you want it and how it feels to actually have it. You mentioned how it feels in your body and so much of this world, the more intersecting identities you have, the more your body is not necessarily a safe place in the world. So a lot of us learn to kind of wall off some of that connection because it can get overwhelming to go out into the world, you know, when you're fat or queer or black or all of them together, you know, it can be a lot. So how do you start to get back in touch and trust what your body is telling you? For me, I find movement helps and movement that is for the sake of feeling good and not movement for the sake of I've got to lose 15 pounds. Like just because I think especially when you have a larger body, which I do and always have had, I mean, you're taught to hate it. So how are you listening? Like you can't listen to the thing that you've been told to like, you know, don't look in the mirror because you're going to see those roles or don't, you know, there's something wrong with your body. So I'm not going to listen to it. So finding ways and that's one of the reasons why at the beginning of the book, I have these freedom rituals, which include like, can you do some movement? I mean, for me, if yoga doesn't have to be for you, it could be walking. It could be anything to love on your body. Someone asked me like, but isn't this sort of like about dieting, about looking good about it? I was like, no, it's not. I think you can nourish yourself and treat your body well and have it not have anything to do with what somebody thinks of its appearance or, you know, wacky ideas about health. Just treat your body well and act like you love it and try to start loving it. And that'll help you. At least it helps me then to trust when my body is telling me something that's not explicitly physical, like I'm in a situation and my body is telling me it's stressful because it feels hard to breathe or my chest is tight or those things. So I think you have to spend some time actually paying attention to your body, especially if you're in a body that people often don't pay attention to in a positive way. Well, and it can be really hard to start trusting because I've had quite a few folks, especially bigger body folks, who are told that what our bodies tell us are wrong. Your body is saying eat and you're bigger so you shouldn't want to eat or, you know, your body is saying this hurts so you don't want to move, but that's wrong. How did you start undoing that messaging? Like you feel good and your blood work is fine, but people are telling you that you're the wrong size, that you can't possibly be healthy. Right. How did you start unpacking that? Because there's a lot in both this book and your previous book about recognizing those messed up beliefs and unpacking it, which sounds a lot simpler than it is. So for you, what was that process like? It took a long time. I think part of it was, I don't know. A friend of mine always says when I asked her that question, like, I just had to. She always says, well, I just had to because, you know, I wasn't going to get any smaller. This is the body I'm in. And so I had to reckon with it. For me, it's been a lifelong, like it's a lifelong battle. I think it has helped the more I've grown in my feminism because, you know, part of the foundation of feminism is, you know, body positivity. As I've grown in that space and read more in that space, I was kind of more and more able to undo some of the things I learned about my body and my size as a child. And as I met more women also of size, I saw more women of size who were doing things physically that I wanted to do. You know, the first time I started walking and I walked a 5K, which was something I never thought I could do because I always felt I'm fat and I'm unathletic and I can't do these things. And so, you know, having some experiences where I was able to do something with my body that I thought I shouldn't be able to do or people had told me that I wouldn't be able to do has also been transformative. So I don't know if it was a linear path. It was little things along the way. Growing in my feminism, it was using my body more. It was being able to look at other women who I felt like were role models in the ways they treated their bodies, role models for me. And you do have quite a few stories in the book of women who are working towards their more authentic selves. For you on your journey, which few of those really stood out and really inspired you to reach deeper and become more of who you really want to be? There were a few of them. There were a few of them. I loved what, you know, Brie Rivera is a trans woman. I love what she said about recognizing that what you hope for your community is for you, too. When she talked in particular about, you know, I work on behalf of Black trans joy and it just sometimes I have to remind myself that that's for me, too. I deserve that joy. So hearing that and knowing, you know, I happen to be a president of a women's fund. And so I do a lot of work on behalf of women and girls and realizing that what I'm working for for them is something I ought to have as well. I also loved what Nikki Myers said in the book about learning to appreciate all parts of herself and that she's been a lot of things. She's been a yoga master and a drug addict and, you know, a Dorothée and a grandmother and all of these things. And sort of how dare you look down on anything that made you who you are today. And all of those things are part of you. And that I have to remind myself is all that, you know, we are not our mistakes. We are not our worst mistakes. And our mistakes deserve incorporation into our full selves. So those were two of the things that really stood out for me. And I would say some of the profiles that are in the first chapter of women talking about the ways that parents and other people kind of reinforce. People that were supposed to love them reinforced some negative stereotypes about their, you know, their blackness and their womanhood. And that stood out to me, reinforcing that, you know, we need to be super vigilant even when we think someone is talking to us with their with our best interests in mind. You know, unfortunately, we live with us in a society where racism and sexism are like the air we breathe. And so remembering, you know, it may remind me to be vigilant about the messages that I let in, even if it feels like it's coming from a friendly source. Exactly. And you talk about, you know, part of this is all in the title of the book, all about getting free. But you also bring up the cost of liberation, right? You can't just say, OK, this and then your life turns and it's great and you're free all the time. So you want to talk a little bit about what you mean about the cost of liberation? So what I mean is there's still places because we live in the world we live in. And it's unfair that, you know, I don't feel totally free, but it is what it is. And there are still places where I might go where my full self may not be welcome. In some places, it may not even be safe to be my full self. And so it's important that we recognize that, also recognize that we can greet those occurrences from a space of freedom. So I think I gave the example a little earlier. If that means deciding if you want, if like for a job, are you going to code switch? Are you not going to code switch? There's not a right answer. But there is going to be a cost for whatever you do. You can decide to not do it and potentially not progress in a job that you really need for your economic survival. Or you can choose to do it and maybe get the rewards that you want at work, but then also feel like you're not being your full self. And that you're, you know, that you're giving in to like, you know, biased notions of what professionalism looks like. And so, you know, you're going to have to pay a cost. Operating from a space of freedom means figuring out the cost that leads you to the good. That figuring out the cost that is least detrimental for you. And I think that's the reality of something that, you know, Black women, other women of color and women, period, have to figure out wherever we go. It is a continuing struggle. My doctorate work was largely based on race in America and my partner, my current partner is Black. And every time we have a conversation about something and we talk about something that happens, his response is, how are you not angry all the time? And so that's part of the cost of liberation. As you see more and more injustice and you have to make those compromises to survive. My question to you is, how are you not angry all the time? Because there's, I mean, because there's still joy in life. There's joy in being a woman. There's joy in being a Black person. Like, wonderful things happen every day. And so there's lots of unfairness. Lots of unfairness. Lots of it. But there are just these wonderful pockets of beauty, like being able to have this conversation. And there are people that I know that want the things that I want and are working towards making that happen. And I see like amazing little girls and young women who are like doing super cool things. And that makes me happy. And so, yes, I am angry a lot, but I'm also happy and joyful a lot. And there is a bit of a paradox that you as a Black woman have to straddle is the stereotype of the angry Black woman. Do you ever feel a need while you're striving to make the world a better place for you and others? Do you ever feel a need to tamp down, which could be truly justified anger as a way of communicating? Or is your liberation being able to express that anger? Well, I think part of liberation, yes, is being able to express that anger. But again, we still live in the world we live in. And so, yes, should be, should be able to express it. But can you always? I mean, the answer is also no. And I would say I have a privilege because, you know, the angry Black woman stereotype has never really stuck to me. And part of that is, you know, my education, my, you know, my flat Midwestern accent that, you know, I don't I don't get in my my just demeanor. That's just not my personality. And that's I say that for good or for bad. I'm not saying because, you know, I am better because I don't get labeled with that. I just don't. I have other I have other crosses to bear in terms of Black women, Black women stereotypes. But the angry Black woman isn't isn't doesn't isn't usually one of one of them. Where are you finding joy right now? I like the closer I get to book launch, actually, it's the book that's giving me joy because it's bringing me in contact with lots of amazing women. I always say anytime I'm writing my books and doing lots of interviews, it's like free therapy because, you know, I get to have these awesome, like deep conversations with women. It's like, oh, yeah, me too, girl. I love it. So I'm going to be spending the next month or so like in bookshops, which, again, my happy place, talking to groups of women. So I am I am super psyched. That's where my joy is coming from right now. That's awesome. I always like to shout out good independent bookstores and, you know, not support the behemoth. Do you have some favorites you want to give a quick shout out to for people to support and go buy your book through? Yes. OK, I'm going to give you I'm going to give you three. One is Karis Books and More. That's Karis, C-H-A-R-I-S. It is the oldest feminist bookstore in the South. It is in Atlanta and it is a maze. It is an amazing place. And they are always so supportive of women writers and queer writers and writers of color. So definitely order from Karis. Also locally here in Indianapolis, Indy Reads, which is a not for profit bookstore that also works deeply in literacy and Loudmouth Books, which is a black woman owned bookstore that is a place for reading dangerously. So they try to stop banned books and other things that are going to challenge you and make you think. And for our listeners, we'll have all of those links in the show notes so you can support some great independent bookstores because we really need to keep our bookstores alive. Where do you find the love of writing? I think it might be in my blood. My mother always enjoyed writing, and I a few years ago, I got really into genealogy for some reason. And it turned out that I have a great maternal great grandmother. Right. So, you know, born late 1800s in Alabama, raised like 10 kids on a farm in Alabama, and she used to write poetry. And I was able to find like this whole stack of this wonderful poetry that she had written. And it was so wonderful. And it always reminds me that, oh, my gosh, you know, here's a woman and like an ancestor of mine who was also spending her time in addition to all of the other things that she did being creative. So, I mean, ever since I was a kid, I was one of those nerdy kids. I was always reading and I was always writing something. I love to play make believe and make up stories. So but I think I got it honest and inherited it from the women in my family. That's awesome. You also write on current politics and cultural issues. Did you want to touch on we're in an election year and what is your read on politics and what's coming? It's frightening. I'm scared. I am. I am scared because it seems like we have lost a connection to how our government works. And so I don't know whether people are paying attention to what could very well be lost, which is our democracy. It's frightening because I hear people who think the president does things that the president absolutely does not do and does not do alone. And I'm worried that people are so focused on the larger national election that they're not paying attention to what's happening locally and in states, which includes a lot of things that are not good for women. And so my encouragement is to everyone, please, please make sure you are read and to women. Make sure you are registered to vote. Make sure you know the issues in your legislature locally, statewide that are important to you. And please, please, please make sure that you vote because our rights, my rights depend on it. I do. I do. Do you want to talk a little bit about the organization that you had? Speaking of the needs and the rights of women and girls, because you do a lot of amazing work there. So we are the Women's Fund of Central Indiana is one of hundreds of women's funds and foundations across the country. Many of whom, you know, cropped up in the 80s and 90s to take care of the needs of women and girls locally in perpetuity. So we're focused on convening and investing and advocating. So everyone that identifies as a woman or girl in central Indiana can reach her full potential, no matter her place, race or identity. And so one of the ways we do that is through grant making about half a million dollars every year into the community to women and girls serving organizations and programs. And other programs and initiatives, like we're in the middle right now of doing a state of women in central Indiana report. That'll hope that we hope will, you know, give folks an idea of what it is like to be a woman or girl in central Indiana and what we need to do in order to make sure we are all thriving. It's such important work. I say that as somebody who headed the California Commission on the Status of Women and Girls. I love it. Just getting the information on what it's like as a woman and girl in your state in a given time, because it changes. And getting people to listen. Yeah. You know, we feel it's really important to not just have the data, but also to have the community voice. One, because, you know, even disaggregated data doesn't tell all the story, you know, of what it's like to actually live as a woman. It is really important because people don't listen. I mean, we're seeing again nationally, people are not listening to what women say that they want and what they need. And they're making decisions for us. It's something about getting elected to the legislature that makes these folks think they have a special set of skills and insights to save everybody without ever having to listen to any of us. Exactly. Crazy, crazy. And that's why, and I got to put a plug in, that's why stories are so important. That's one of the things I like about the book is you have people's stories and that's where folks connect. Yes. It's hard to connect with statistics. It's hard to connect with platitudes, but you bring in the storytelling part of it. And I love that. So thank you for that. Thank you. Thank you. I mean, I think it's, I can't ever stand with my personal story for every woman. I just can't for every black woman, every woman. So I always feel like in my books, it's important to incorporate other voices and other experiences. And you did a beautiful job with that. Thank you. Yeah, you are going out on tour. People can actually come see you, read, meet you, get you to find books. Do you want to plug all the things, where to buy? Plug away. Yes, yes, yes. Well, one thing, please visit TamraWinfreyHarris.com and you can see all my stuff. You can read about my previous books and you can look under events and you can see every place that I'm going to be next. So my kickoff event is a virtual event with Harris Books and More that I mentioned in Atlanta on July 9th. And it will be along with Dr. Jen Jackson, who's the author of Black Women Taught Us, which will be fantastic. I have a bunch of other events, both impersonal and virtual, both here in Indianapolis. There's one at Belcanto in Long Beach. I think at the end of July. Women and Children First in Chicago in August. Detroit on the 13th. So please visit TamraWinfreyHarris.com and look at the event schedule to see if I'm coming to a place near you. Please buy a Black Woman's Guide to Getting Free at a local bookseller. Again, support your local independent bookseller. And follow me on social media. I am Tamra Winfrey Harris, most places. And listeners will have all of those links and more to some of not only the bookshops mentioned here, but some of the other favorite Fat Chicks independent bookstores. I know you're coming to San Francisco and I'm going to try and make it down to see you there. And I would encourage my more local readers to come join me for that one. Thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Sorry for my technical glitches, but it's been wonderful talking to you. You too.