BTDA ep1

Okay, great. Okay, I started the recording, so we're just starting out then. Okay, great. So, we'll start in three, two, one. Hi, everyone, and welcome back to series two of Meet the Dentist. In today's episode, we have the resident president here at BTDA. These two need no introduction, but today here with me, I have Bots in the London Dental Society President of 2020, Evelyn Sprozen Prize winner, BLSA Honours and Association Award winner, Dr. Milton Justin Sudhakaran, and I also have Tamil Society Vice President of 2020 and 2021, Dr. Sadhvika Birundabin. A big warm welcome to both of you, and how are you guys today? Well, yeah, thank you for having us. I think this episode was pending for quite a while. I think we both wanted to wait until we obviously could be called dentists before we jumped into this episode, but yeah, I'm glad to be here, happy to talk about all things dentistry and BTDA. Yeah, exciting to be able to talk about uni and work as well now. So, yeah. I'm so glad that you're both excited as well. So, first of all, could I have you, Sadhvika, could you give us a little introduction about yourself and tell the listeners a bit about you and what you're doing now? So, as you already said, I graduated from Barts in London, BDS. So, we graduated last summer, 2023. Now I'm doing my foundation training in a practice in Farnham. So, I'm part of the Surrey Scheme, which is part of London, Kent, Surrey, Sussex. Yeah, it's going well. So, we have four days of practice and a study day and just really getting into the routine of seeing patients back to back, having a variety of different treatments coming through and a real variety of patients and lots of learning as well. Okay, great. Thank you. And what about you, Milton? Yeah, likewise. So, I'm obviously in foundation year now in Northwest London, so around Wembley. And I'm lucky because it's literally like a 15-minute bus away from my house. So, nothing could be closer to me. So, it's really nice to start waking up at 7.30, 7.40 to go into work, where I know a lot of my mates are waking up at like six or even earlier to get into work. So, yeah, no, I'm really blessed in that sense. And like Savika said, I obviously got a wide variety of patients that I'm seeing this year. It's really different to uni because you have that sudden jump of seeing, you go from seeing that two to three patients a day to like 10 to 15 maybe. And that transition doesn't happen seamlessly. But for me, it didn't anyway. You kind of get thrown straight into it. So, September to December was quite like, it was a very big difference. And I think I've only really settled into practice now. I feel like I'm much more comfortable with speaking to patients about treatment planning, actually doing treatment as well. I feel like I'm a bit more comfortable and confident doing it. Yeah, I can imagine it's quite a big jump, like going from uni to like fully starting your career. So, yeah, it makes sense that it took like a while to settle in, but I'm glad you both feel a bit more settled in now. And so let's start with our first question. So, what made you decide to become a dentist? And you can decide who wants to answer that first. OK, basically what I did was in year nine, I just googled what was the highest paying jobs in year nine. This is when I had like this epiphany of, oh, you know, like how your mums always say, oh, education is a waste of life, etc. So, this is when I kind of knuckled down in life and I was thinking, I need to start studying in order to make it somewhere. So, then I just started googling, oh, what's like the highest paid jobs. And then I think dentistry must have been in the top five. And then I started like banging out all of those quizzes that kind of determined what kind of job might be suited towards your personality and things like that. And it was always like medicine, dentistry, whatever. So, like, I think at the beginning, it was really superficial, my reasonings for wanting to go into dentistry. But now, I think like towards sixth form, I started to think, I want a job where I'm using my hands quite a lot, where I'm kind of, I don't know, always challenged every single day in a new way. And obviously, a patient-centred sort of job as well, where I'm looking after people. I think those things attracted me in the end. So, yeah, I think I'm like, I'm in a career and I don't think I would have chosen anything else, maybe. Oh, wow. That's really cute that you definitely would have chosen anything else as well. Yeah, no, I think I'm quite lucky in that sense. A lot of my other friends are like in finance or whatever. And you already know that they're going to be probably earning quite a bit quicker than you. But sometimes I just see like the hours that they put into work, and it's not really that flexible for them as well. Although nowadays, you know, they're giving like free lunch and free dinner. No, I haven't seen any of that yet. We're fighting for UDEs. But yeah, so like, I think having seen all of that, I'm still quite comfortable in the profession that we've chosen. So yeah, it can only really kind of get better from here, seeing how many kind of routes and paths that stem from DSPs. Yeah, it's like the rewarding aspect as well of it. That's really nice. Just another question. Throughout uni, so your experience at Bath and London, did you ever have any doubts about your career or any moments where it was a bit rough and you thought, oh, is this the right career for me? Yeah, because I failed my Crown's gateway so many times. Oh, so your Crown prep? Yeah, Crown prep. So like, I failed in second year. I know, I passed in second year, failed in third year, passed in fourth year, then I failed in fifth year again. So like, yeah, it's always up and down. I'm just thinking, like, how's my manual dexterity not getting better, like throughout the years? And sometimes it might not be the preparation, it might be that stupid temp. It might just like shrink or like flick off something. So yeah, it'd be really annoying. But I think in those kind of situations, you just kind of take a step back and be like, look, I'm still a student. This is why I'm at university. I'm training to be a dentist. I'm not there yet. So just take your time. Let's just breathe a little and we'll get there one step at a time. And I think that's obviously helped quite a lot. But I don't think at any point I did want to leave dentistry. It was more so like doubting myself and my capabilities. But I think everyone kind of gets that impostor syndrome at some point. It's just how you kind of deal with it effectively. Yeah. So you felt like your mindset was kind of pretty much stuck on dentistry throughout your whole university experience then? Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Oh, so you like had a goal in mind and you just worked towards it? Yeah, of course, man. Great. And what made you decide to become a dentist? So pay definitely was a big factor. And I did always want to work in health care, like something with people and making people happy and that kind of stuff. So when I was in school, it was very much like I was good at science, but I was also good at maths. So I really kind of gone like either way based on what I was good at. But for me, like the maths-y, finance-y kind of route just seemed kind of, yeah, good money, really good money. But I don't know how much I'd want to just sit at a desk and like stare at computers and like number crunch the whole day. No, you do normally. You sit at your desk. Huh? What? No, you normally do. You sit at your desk. What, as being a dentist? No, no, no, when you come back home. No, I'm in bed. But yeah, so like I knew I wanted to do something in health care. But then like I also was kind of leaning towards being a more research lab-based kind of person. So I looked into that and I was like, well, actually, I want to see results actually in person as opposed to being kind of behind the scenes. So that was ruled out. And then it was like medicine, dentistry. And I realised that I don't actually want to be dealing with like life and death. So dentistry was a good way of like actually doing stuff to help people. But also not thinking, oh, my God, am I going to kill this patient? Surely there are times you actually think that though. Huh? Surely there are times where you might think that. What, as a dentist? Even as a dentist, yeah, like oh, we're trying to give an ID block. Yeah, and then when I'm doing ID blocks sometimes, I'm like, oh, film this. Wait a minute. Or like if you're trying to give like a buccal infiltration to the upper anterior teeth, you're like, ah. If that wasn't just the brain. Yeah. So like in comparison, there isn't as much death in dentistry. And it's like I feel like it's a bit more the outcome is generally a bit more positive than it would be with medicine maybe. I don't know. And so and like the whole set, you could be flexible with it and like you can manage your life, work life a bit better with dentistry. Not that I am, but like with dentistry, you can balance it a bit better than with medicine. So it was kind of more the lifestyle as well that drew me towards dentistry and also being able to use my hands actually doing stuff as opposed to being like with them and writing prescription and whatever. Yeah. Yeah. OK, so what about you in your whole uni experience at Barts in London? Do you ever doubt yourself as a dentist or whether this is the right career path for you? Yeah, well, so I failed my first year. So I started in 2017, so I should have graduated in 2022, but I failed my first year. I studied, but for whatever reason, I just didn't pass my exams. That was a really big, like, knock on my confidence because that was the first time I'd ever failed anything in my life. So that was very like, maybe I'm not supposed to be doing this because if I am, then I probably would have passed. That was the kind of thing that was going through my head because I was like, I've never failed anything before. Why have I failed now? But yeah, then I had another chance to come back, redeem myself, and I did. So once I passed first year, I was like, OK, cool, I'm in now. So like I'm actually in. So yeah, and then we started CONS in second year. That's a conversation for everyone who doesn't know. No, CONS is in Philly. Oh, those are, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So me and Milton were in the same group for CONS. Oh, good. And our tutors were, the tutors that we had were very picky with good reason, but I just sucked. I sucked so bad. I was so bad at it. And like, I would literally leave the lab crying because I was like, every week... I think I remember seeing you cry. Milton, you were laughing. It was like, every week there was something and it was like, why can't I just do this correctly? Like, it's a filling. It's meant to be the most basic part, like we've barely gotten into big dentistry. So I was like, why am I so bad at this? I just can't do it. And so that was very like, oh, my God, maybe I'm not, I'm not supposed to be doing this because I clearly can't use a handpiece. So that's so like, it was very like when you're not able to do something and it's like you just can't seem to get it right ever. Because with crowns, I never failed a gateway. That's crazy. But then with cons, I was just, it was bad. I was like, I don't know why I can't do this. I don't know what happened to me, but I don't know if it was like changing the focus or like changing how I was doing things. I don't know what I did differently, but I can clearly do it now. But that was a rough. You just don't know how you did that. Yeah. I think, I think iatrogenic damage, I was like. Yeah, you know, for our yearbook, I think Sal wrote down hitting the adjacent tooth since 18 or something like that. Yeah. And I don't think anything is truer, man. Like even on our study days, like still nip the adjacent a little bit. Yeah, yeah. But if you can invest in loops, get loops, like it seems to be my thing. I think it's helped so much. Yeah, a few people in our year have got loops now as well, and those things are more useful. I think the sooner you get them, I've just got them. And the sooner you get them, the more you get used to them. And because until you get used to them, they're not really, they don't help you. They feel like a bit more of a nuisance until you get used to them. Just because everything is so big and you're not used to it being so big and like you see every little detail. But yes, there were a few times where I thought this wasn't the career for me. So what's it like for a year two student who's going through the exact same thing that you went through? What would you tell them to do? I would say speak to people who are doing it right. Speak to them. Watch them if you can. See what they're doing differently to you. And see if you can, like, what's one something that one person does isn't necessarily going to work for you. But the only way you'll find out is if you try. So you need to watch other people as much as you can and ask tutors like, what am I doing wrong? What could I do differently? And yes, that really is it. Like trying to find out through other people and different years, people in different years and speak to them through their experience. They would have something that might help you. And that's probably the best way. I still don't know how I suddenly became better at doing MO cavities, but just one day I became better and I was like, cool, let's do it. I think it's also it becomes really frustrating when you keep failing at something and you keep doing badly at something. It becomes really frustrating. And that also kind of projects into your work. It doesn't allow you to progress in the right direction. So I think it's kind of, you know, pep-talking yourself. You know what? You can do this. Just take your time. It's OK if you take a bit longer than everybody else, but you can do it. Stop every two seconds if you need to. You don't need to rush through it. You're not a professional dentist who can just cut an MO cavity without stopping. So I think it's like putting things into perspective and like Milton said, just understand that you are actually just learning and that's why you're here. You're making mistakes now. OK, great. You would say the number one thing that I would like to take away from what you just said is that you never wanted to give up, even though it was frustrating, you stuck through it and also gave us positive reassurance and affirmation saying that you're just as good as you can do this. It's doable. Yeah, it's doable because clearly everybody's doing it. Yeah, I agree. Well, thank you so much for that. And as we're on the topic of your uni life, I have a question for you, Milton. So what made you decide to start releasing your dental rap song? Oh, hell no. I think it basically started when I was running for a dental president. So I was running up against Sam. You won't know him. So BC, vote for me. Well, basically, Sam was like, he was tough competition. So me and my mates, the same guys who are doing the raps now with me, we all used to live together. So they were basically helping me out with some ideas and whatnot to try and secure more votes and whatnot. So we, as a household, really like music. We play music to each other all the time. And we do these stupid freestyles and whatnot. So who are your inspirations? Well, in terms of musical artists? Yeah. I don't know. Probably like Drake, isn't it? Yeah. But we were just thinking, oh, it might be nice to do a rap, just to kind of be a bit more creative. And that would be a bit unique. Yeah. And plus, like, I think, I don't know if COVID was announced by then or, I don't know, I don't think it was. But basically, like, we had so much free time. So this was towards the end of second year. So we were just like, why not? Mid second year. Yeah. We were just like, why not? Because we weren't, I mean, I wasn't really going We had the time to kind of mess about. And then we literally recorded it in my mate Rian's room on his laptop. And then, like, it became a hit. And obviously, like, we didn't really care if anyone else didn't like it or not. But we really enjoyed the process of making it. And it kind of brought our house closer together as well. So then later, a couple of months down the line, I think some of the tutors got a hold of that video and song, and they really liked it. So there was one tutor who asked us to make a song for the World Health Organization for Oral Health Day. So then we did a remix of one of Dave's songs. Oh, wow. And then your tutors actually got involved. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then a couple of years down the line, I think we've released two more songs since then. Still working on some at the moment. When can they next expect a new job? Probably by the end of this year. OK. That's quite a long time frame. Right on, everyone. Hopefully by summer. OK, great. By summer. Yeah, I mean, like, it was just a nice way to do something different to dentistry, but whilst also talking about dental things. And yeah, we connected with a guy from King, Steve, in our year. His name is Parth. And he was doing a lot of music producing for us, and also I met Zeyan from our year. Those two really helped us out with our past couple of songs. So yeah, it's just been really fun. And it's just different, right? It's just nice. Yeah. Oh, right. So that's really nice. It was like a new hobby for you to have during dental school as well. Yeah, exactly. Like, instead of revising, we'd be, like, writing lyrics for our next song. I guess it is revising because it is dental terms that you're using. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That must be such a nice memory for you to look back at when you think of dental school as well. Yeah, I know. When I'm in my practice during FD, I literally, like, play our songs, like, when I'm, like, cutting the prep or something. And then I'll just hear one of the boys' verse in the back. I'm just like, yeah! Get it! No, it's been fun, honestly. But yeah, because we've all kind of drifted apart, but some of them have gone to... Annie's gone to Bristol, Paddy's gone back to, kind of, Birmingham, and then Rhian's, like, South London. Oh, no, he's in Oxbridge. But we're all so busy with life now, so it's really difficult to get a hold of each other. But yeah, when we do, the tunes are coming back. OK, great. So the viewers can look forward to something then this summer. Yes. OK, great. Thank you. And my next question for you guys is, what was your highlight of studying as a dental student at Barclays in London? So, Sarvika, would you like to answer that one first? Yeah. So I think starting to see patients was probably one of my biggest highlights. Like, actually, because we had COVID, like, right where we were supposed to start seeing patients. So we didn't get to see patients for, like, I want to say a year and a half later than we should have originally started seeing them. So it was kind of like, when are we going to, like, put all this stuff that we learn? When is it actually going to be useful? When is it actually going to, like, how are we actually going to see it play out if we never get to see patients? So when we did, it felt, obviously, we were still learning and there was, like, I mean, we still are, but, like, there was so much that we didn't know. And there were things that we'd never come across because we hadn't been taught it at uni yet. But it was really exciting to see, actually, how things can go in people's mouths and actually being able to put into practice everything that we're learning and interacting with the patients. And because we had that whole COVID period and we were just stuck in labs for ages, it was like a really good reminder of why we picked this career in the first place, why we picked this degree. And then, like, in final year, being on continuing care clinics and, like, all the nurses, like, the environment, it was just, it was a really, really nice place to be, knowing that you're on a level like a professional, but you're also, you can kind of mess around a little bit. So it was really fun. And, like, all the nurses were amazing, super, super supportive, sometimes more than So, yeah, I think, like, the clinical stuff, actually getting stuck in was, even though we had to think about, like, requirements. So apart from the whole requirement side of it, just doing what you want kind of thing. And that was really good. I think that was probably my favourite. Obviously, graduating is great. But, yeah. Oh, OK, great. Well, thank you for that. And what about you, Nelson? What was your highlight of your dentistry career? That's a difficult one. I think every single year brought its own kind of good memories. I don't think I can really pinpoint one particular year, one particular memory that was a highlight as such, just because it was just overall such a good experience for me. But, yeah, I think similarly to Salvatore, like, the clinics were really helpful. Again, seeing everything that you've put into, kind of, seeing everything that you've learnt being put into practice was really kind of nice. And then I was obviously experimenting with some of my patients, like, not in a bad way, but just, like, things you'd see on articles and in the literature. And then you getting applied that into a patient and seeing it work is amazing. But apart from that, probably, like, some of the extra kind of projects that I got involved in at university was quite good for me. I think that was probably another highlight of my time at dental school, because I was really involved in, kind of, the logistical kind of side of things in terms of helping the staff out. As president, I was just, like, really involved in writing the exams. Well, not actually writing the exams, but, like, in terms of the formatting of it and where it would take place, when it would take place because of COVID. And then there was this whole anti-racism movement as well that I was playing a part in. And, yeah, so, like, a lot of things that I can look back on the same. I feel like I did so much more during dental school than I am now. And I feel like I peaked during dental school, but I don't know. I do feel like in dental school, you probably get a lot more opportunities than you have now, right? Yeah, that's true as well. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So you would say you made the most of your dental school career? Yeah. I don't know what else I could have done, to be honest. Maybe, like, study more, but apart from that... And you graduated, so is that an issue? Yeah, yeah, true. But I think there was this nice transition of me kind of going from that partied life to more of a serious candidate. And I think that transition probably happened somewhere between second and third year because during first and second year, I was, yeah, it was a bit of a messy situation. But I think afterwards, I really matured and... Well, I'd like to think I've matured, but that's when I kind of realised, like, look, I'm at university, I've only got three more years to, you know, get stuck in and learn as much as I can from dental school. Because one thing I do kind of regret is looking back, I could have definitely used way more resources, learnt way more from the tutors. It's something that you really don't kind of grasp only until you've left dental school because you don't have... You're not in that same environment, right? So, yeah, while you can make the most of all your tutors, the nurses, honestly, because you learn so much from them. And using their tips, it's really nice to then produce that good quality work in practice when you get the chance to. Okay, great. Thank you. So, throughout both of your walks down memory lane, you spoke a lot about the advice that you'll give to dental students at the moment and what you think you would recommend them doing as well. So, I really appreciate that. And thank you so much, guys, for sharing. So now, moving forward, talking about where you are now, I have a question for you guys. What are your hobbies right now, and how are you finding balancing working life and social life? Oh, by the way, the meeting is going to end in like five minutes, but then we can just rejoin it. Yeah, okay. I think Sarvika's main hobby is just sleeping at the moment. Honestly, it is. Because I work so far away, and then I feel like it's just, it's really draining. So, I think more than the actual work, like once I'm at work, I feel full of energy. But as soon as I'm done, and I'm like, I have to hit the road now, and I have to be probably be stuck on the road for like an hour and a half. And it's really draining. So, yeah, most of the time I do come home, and then I'm like, I shower, eat, sleep, basically every day, which isn't great. But I feel like that is all I have the time and the energy for on a week's day. And then weekends, Saturdays are my days for kind of actually living my life again, and like going out and doing whatever. So, usually, Saturdays are my days for going out, meeting people, lunch, dinner. That's pretty much it. Sunday is my reset day. No hobbies, basically, at the moment. I feel like at the moment I am struggling with the work-life balance. I thought I might have figured it out by now, but I haven't. So, yeah, that's something that I need to work on. Ideally, I think also, I'm going to blame it on the weather and the fact that it's winter and it's dark early. But like, yeah, I leave home when it's dark, and then I leave work when it's dark. I never see the sun. Yeah, basically, my hobbies are actually sleeping at the moment. So, yeah. No, we really appreciate you being honest about how it is being in your DST year. And it makes sense that it takes a while to transition into having a good work-life balance at the moment as well. So, yeah, we really appreciate you being honest. But hopefully, moving forward, it will be a lot more easier to balance when it goes into the summer, spring season. But yeah, what about you, Milton? Yeah, I mean, similarly, I think the first couple of months of DST were quite hard to find that balance because you're trying so hard to make sure you don't kill someone in practice. Your energy is so drained there. And then I think in London KSS, you've got so much more emphasis on portfolio and things like that, which takes up so much time. Even though they've cut so many aspects of it down, it's just still such a nuisance. I hope this doesn't go out to HEE, by the way. No, honestly, it's such a bother sometimes because you'll be there, like, banging out all of your treatment, doing all your notes on time, and you're ready to leave. And then you're like, oh, crap, I've got to do this deadline for IRCP or whatever. And then you have to go back to ES. And then you tell them that I need to do this and that. And they look at you like, bro, this is not the time. I want to go home. It's a Thursday night or Friday night, and you just want to go back home. But yeah, trying to get it done earlier is definitely the better way. Because now I've got most of it out of the way, I think. So I've got much more time on my hands. And plus, because I live so close to home, I have, like, a couple of hours after work to just do whatever I want. So I normally just go to the gym. And I get to see one of my good mates there as well. So it's a nice change, because he's studying his master's in law. So then I get to hear something different from dentistry all the time as well. So it's nice. And yeah, I think apart from gym, really, like, and what we've been doing, I think I was part of chores at home, getting violated by my mum at home. That's probably a big hole in my mind. But yeah, I think, obviously, like, working on BTDA stuff, we had a meeting with Prof Ari a couple of weeks ago. And he's been cooking. There's a lot of things that we've got planned. So yeah, hopefully that all kind of comes through in the next couple of months. But yeah, apart from that, I've just been kind of reading up on papers in terms of, like, dental papers, just trying to get my knowledge base up a bit more. Because you realise quite quickly that everything at dental school is gold standard. But there's obviously, like, there's a breadth of knowledge to learn. And I don't really want to be that dentist who's just doing simple kind of dentistry the rest of their life. And there's nothing wrong with that, obviously. But I think everyone should have aspirations in life, especially if it is the career that you've chosen to do for the next 20, 30, 40 years. There's a lot of space to grow and a lot of things to learn. So if I get the time to read, like, I don't know, one paper a week, it doesn't take that long, maybe like 10 minutes, 10, 15 minutes, then it will help quite a lot. Sometimes it's not even like reading a paper. I'll literally go on to Instagram, see some of my favourite dentists work, because some of them have, like, in the caption, they'll demonstrate their work.