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Talk: 19960707-Larry_Rosenberg-UNK-vipassana_retreat_part_7_of_8-43311 Start_time: 00:45:12 Display_question: What the difference between psychologizing and getting to the root of things? Keyword_search: psychologize, root, breath, mental health, psychologist, psychotherapist, psychotherapy, meditation, Buddha, Anapanasati, mindfulness, ego, trauma, insatiable, fulfillment, Vipassana, intellectual, self-respect, therapy, happy, Asia, introspection, thinking, observation Question_content: Questioner: A couple things. I feel like today I've been riding a bucking bronco. I don't know whether it's a function of opening up the meditation or whatever, but I can appreciate how much you need to get back to the breath, which is really where I am, at the beginning. But it leads me to a question that you really might have answered in the last few questions, but I just want to bounce it off you. I work in the mental health field. I get a little snagged on the idea. I think I have an intuitive sense of the difference between psychologizing and getting to the root of things. Larry: Yeah. Questioner: <inaudible> …comes up through the practice is getting to the root of something, psychologizing is something that distracts us, which I think I have a sense of, but… Larry: Okay, let me take your first part about the breath, that you decided to get back to the breath. So it's not kindergarten, it's not something, baby stuff. And then you get on to really Vipassana, the real thing. A real person just practices Vipassana. That's just kid stuff. It's not so. There are two practices which both have their own value. And to illustrate that, after the Buddha attained enlightenment, now let's attribute the most we can. Let's assume he's a fully enlightened being. It would be pretty hard for him to be, he had to be pretty good to leave a teaching behind that has survived 2500 years and is still vital. It's a very clear teaching. It's a lot of words and a lot of what I'm saying. It's right there, you can read it. And there's a living tradition, more important in many ways, not more, but as important to keep it going. Break_line: So, someone once asked him, he took off for a month and they didn't know where he was. And he came back, and they said, Where have you been? And he said, I just did my own personal retreat. And they said, Oh, you did a retreat? Oh, well, what did you do on your retreat? And he said, I did Anapanasati. That's what we're doing, mindfulness of the breath. And they said, But you're enlightened, why do you need to do Anapanasati? And he said, It’s just a wonderful way to live. In other words, he just got into probably extraordinary states of deep peace and calm and just enjoyed being there, but he wasn't trapped there. He could also come out of it and then use his wisdom eye as well. Break_line: So just to make it clear, mindfulness of breathing is not baby stuff. And feel free to use it a lot, even use it for the rest of the retreat entirely if you wish to. I had to say other things to put that in, to show you that there are other things that are available for you to do. As that calms down, as your mind comes down by doing the mindfulness of breathing, you're going to see quite naturally that the mind stuff, all that stuff that's there, is still going to be there, only now you're going to be much more able. It won't be like a, always anyway, like riding a bronco. And there'll be some very, very useful seeing and learning and letting go that happens. And so each of us has to be honest with ourselves and to know what you need in this moment. If the mind is as wild as that, I would suggest go back to the breath. If the mind is really nice, calm, and clear, be a little bit bold, don't be afraid. Jump in and just sit there and be aware of whatever's turning up. Okay. The second one with psycho regarding therapy, I'm not quite as comfortable with because I'm not a therapist. Questioner: Well, it’s more the term psychologize. Larry: Yes. Questioner: Which is I sense getting around and around and around and going on about something… Larry: That’s right. Okay. Let's say you're doing the second practice, choiceless awareness. But the mind really doesn't have very much stability, and stuff is happening. And instead of being aware of what's happening, all I meant to say is this. Instead of being aware of what's happening, what the mind is doing “Oh, yeah, there's a reason this is that way, is because I know this well. Boy, it's when I was a child, my mommy dropped me on the floor, and now I still resent it.” And plausible reasons for why something's there, causes that go back in history, all kinds of useful, interesting speculations, brilliant intellectual explanations. “Wow! This is what Kierkegaard meant.” All of them are evasions of intimate contact with what's happening. Break_line: Okay. So, in those moments, the mind is just not quiet enough to just see. So, it's doing. I'm not down on psychotherapy. Did that come across? Questioner: No. Larry: Good. Because, quite frankly, living in Cambridge. First of all, I would not have survived, because everyone who comes to the Cambridge Inside Meditation Center is in therapy, has been in therapy, or will be in therapy. I would say about 75% are therapists, 50%. I have never been in therapy, not because I'm so mentally healthy. Sorry. But I haven't. I missed that one. I used putting something in my mouth instead to learn about myself. Break_line: Okay. Um, the level of therapeutic intervention is extremely helpful. Many, we're now learning how to how to use both meditation and therapy in a very, very good way. If you have a therapist who's sensitive to what meditation is, ideally, who practices as well. And if you have a meditation teacher who's not on a high horse about, condescending, thinking that I'm very spiritual and you're doing psychotherapy. It's really not a matter of superior or inferior. They do somewhat different things. And often some people called, I hope I'm forgiven for this, but some of us who are called great teachers, great meditation masters, could use a little bit of psychotherapy it seems to me, over the years what I've seen. So, I value both. Break_line: In Cambridge now, we send many people to do psychotherapy, either in addition, either stopping meditation—it's just not right for them right now—or to work in both of them in a very skillful way. And it seems to very often work out beautifully. But the psychotherapeutic approach is coming at it from a slightly different angle. There's one therapist in Cambridge who was formulated this way. I don't totally agree with it, but it is helpful. What he says is, before you can be a nobody, you've got to be a somebody. Some of you have heard that. Probably every therapist has heard of it. Break_line: Okay. Meaning when you hear all this talk about not self and emptiness and all in Buddhist circles, they're saying, that sounds great, but first you've got to be a somebody. In other words, the highest thing you could say about someone in Buddhist circles is that you're a nobody. If I could honestly tell you that I am a complete nobody, I would be very happy. But I have to admit I'm still a somebody. So, there's some truth to that. So that a lot of therapeutic work is helping the person gain some self-respect, ego strength, terms like this, some traumas are so deep that to ask a person to just observe it the way we're doing here is just unrealistic. It has nothing to do with the person's intelligence or even their motivation. It can't be done. The pain is too deep, and the level of concentration is not developed yet. So that's a very necessary and worthwhile level to understand. Even those of us who haven't been trained, we do some of that intuitively. But I always feel a lot better if I can send someone to someone who's really trained there than me doing the best I can. I don't like that too well. Finally, insight. The major insight is seeing that the ego will never be happy. It's constitutionally incapable of being happy. Questioner: Insatiable. Larry: What? Questioner: Insatiable. Larry: It's insatiable. Thank you. And so it experiences humiliations all day long—when people don't look at us the right way, or they look at us the wrong way, or they don't look at us enough, or they look at us too much, or they pay don't pay us. There's so many ways in which the poor ego gets humiliated, and then sometimes we're successful, but we don't hold it. There's always somebody smarter and prettier and younger and more enlightened. But some activities are trying to strengthen that capacity of ego functioning. By the way, meditation is not trying to destroy the ego or kill the ego, as some people think. What would that be like? I mean, you'd be, how could you live? It's rather, you're not egotistical about your ego. It's a strange way to put it, but that's the only way I know how to say it. You have ego strength, but you're not egocentric about having that strength. To be able to function, to be competent, to be able to hold a job, carry out a relationship and so forth. Of course, that's good. So that you have to be a somebody before you can be a nobody is bringing you to a place where there's a lot of fulfillment in life. Break_line: Many of us who started, who went to Asia for these teachings were, at least on paper, already successful. Many people were successful financially. I know the lives of my colleagues and my own. Or they had higher education. They had many degrees. They were teaching at wonderful universities. They had all the resources that America has to offer, which is considerable. And not to put that down; I don't, personally. And yet there was something left over, some hole there that needed to be filled. So why is it that in the most opulent country in the world, that's where the energy really went for spirituality? This is the most spiritual country on the planet right now, believe it or not. Go to Asia. It's dying out. They all want to go to MIT and Harvard. They're not interested in coming here. You start talking about Omega insight meditation. They'll start looking around. How do you get into MIT? Do you have any influence there? And there's more energy for this. And that's why some of the Asian teachers more and more love teaching Westerners. Break_line: But it's a different question. The question here is something that goes even beyond that kind of fulfillment. It's not anything new. It's an ancient quest. It's been around for as long as I guess we humans have been, in all the great traditions and also outside of them. Do you see what I'm getting at? But all I meant, I don't think it was, it just that your kind of chronic introspection, you're doing intelligent thinking, but it's not observation. End_time: 00:57:15
