Let's Talk About It

The podcast discusses the potential impact of overturning Roe vs. Wade on the foster care system. One guest, Allie, expresses a pro-life stance with exceptions for rape and if both the mother and baby will die. She believes adoption and foster care are the best alternatives to abortion. The other guest, Molly, takes a pro-choice perspective, emphasizing the importance of access to safe abortions as a woman's right. The conversation touches on topics such as the physical and mental trauma of pregnancy, government and community support for struggling parents, the overwhelmed foster care system, and the debate around same-sex couples adopting. Both guests stress the need for community involvement and support to improve the foster care system. Welcome to Let's Talk About It. I'm Anna Perdue and today we'll be discussing how the overturn of Roe vs. Wade will flood an already overflowing foster care system. With me today, I've invited two guests, two roommates with opposing viewpoints on abortion. At the end of the podcast, we'll compare their answers to their very similar questions and conclude. Today we're here with Allie. Hi, I'm Allie. I'm Anna's friend. She's coming to do a little bit of talk about her pro-life stance. Allie, I just have a couple questions for you today. Yeah, I'm ready. Alright, so we tend to hear from pro-life supporters that there are certain circumstances under which they'll allow abortions. Do you have any and what are they? I do. I have, if it's rape and the kid, if it's a kid, then obviously. Or if in the circumstance that both the baby and the mother are going to be killed, then obviously do what you have to do. But those are my circumstances. If you're pregnant and you don't want the baby, you can't, I believe that's so wrong just to abort it. I heard of a case of a woman who was pregnant with cancer and she couldn't get chemo because the radiation would harm her baby. What do you think that this woman should have done? I believe it depends how far along she was with the baby. If it was towards the end, I would just say don't do any chemo, have the baby, start your chemo, get better. But if it's in the beginning of the baby, I would probably just say wait it out and have the baby as soon as you can and then you can start taking chemo. But meanwhile, take care of yourself. Find over the counter or just whatever the doctors prescribe that's not gonna harm the baby, that's a good place to start. Yeah, that's great. My next question is, do you think the pro-life community is keeping the mothers in mind when they talk about keeping the baby just because there is so much physical and mental trauma of pregnancy and then the aftermath of the trauma of birth? I do. I do think that people think about the mother, but people think about the mother because sometimes it's her fault that she got pregnant. Obviously like I'm not talking about rape or anything, I'm just talking about a kid has sex with another kid and she gets pregnant and doesn't want the baby. People in her community definitely think about her and are like she shouldn't abort this baby, it's her fault, she should deal with the consequences. And once she has a baby, she can put it in adoption or foster care, but people definitely do think about the mom. So when a woman gets pregnant and she realizes she isn't capable of raising her baby, whether that be lack of resources or support or she wasn't ready or she's too young, what do you believe is the best alternative to abortion? I believe adoption and foster care. Just giving up the baby, the baby's still born, still alive, it's another life like for the earth, but just giving it up, putting it in adoption or foster care, somewhere another person in this world will want to take care of her or him. Give it to someone who wants it. What will they do with the children and the women who can't afford to take care of themselves if abortion is made illegal? So like a mom who can't afford her baby, how will she be able to afford those checkups and those medical bills after having had a birth in a hospital because those are so expensive these days? There's a lot of government support and a lot of family support, friend support. You just have to look for it in the right places and I know it's like a hard time, like you're struggling, you don't want to ask for help, but sometimes you just need to ask for help and you'll get it. So you just have to keep looking, but there will always be people there to help you, even if it's the government just giving you a few extra dollars just to get through your one visit, like there's people there that will help. When a parent or two parents decide they can't take care of their child or their children anymore, they can either be placed up for adoption where they'll wait for a more permanent commitment or they can be put in the foster care system which is used to provide more temporary care for kids while their birth parents cannot care for them. This means at some point their parents will take them back when they're ready, but the sad fact is most either aren't allowed to take their kids back, whether that be because of drugs or abuse, or they don't feel like they'll ever be stable enough to care for their own children. So the foster care system is already seriously overwhelmed and now with the DOPS decision, the situation is set to only get worse now with even more kids being given up due to their parents not being able to care for them. How do you feel about this? I feel like we, as like a community, can do something. More of us parents, or more like more people can start, more people can start like offering to foster for foster care. It's not, it's not like it is a huge commitment, but it's not like adoption, but like also people could join adoption and start getting kids out of these homes so it's like a cycle. Like there's always going to be kids going in, but you can be the one to help a person get out and not go back. So I just think we have to, as a community, be there more and be more involved and that will help the cycle. For sure. I just recently read that the Supreme Court has ruled that foster care agencies can reject same-sex couples. I'm first going to ask you how do you feel about gay marriage, gay, the gay community? Right, religiously I believe it's wrong and I believe that man is for woman and women are for men and that it shouldn't be any other way. And I know right now in our like, Gen Z has a bunch of like, it's almost not like a trend, but like everyone is gay or everyone is lesbian or everyone is bi or everyone's like there's always something. Yeah. And I feel like it's only gonna get worse, only gonna get more accepted, which is fine, but I personally believe that it's wrong. So do you think that homosexual couples should have the right to adopt? I do. Even though it's wrong, it's still two people in this community trying to help another person out. Yeah. So I believe it's, it should be okay. Do you know what happens to the children in the care system who never get fostered or adopted? I think I know a little bit, but could you tell me? Yeah, yeah for sure. Okay. So some children go to some kind of facility or group home until a foster family is found that meets their needs. Sometimes the child is sent to a foster family that is a receiving home and then from there they either go to a facility or a more permanent foster home. One reason for placement in a group home may be the lack of appropriate foster homes that are available at that time. So the children who never get adopted or never fostered, some make good lives for themselves, that is if they go to school, find a job, but many end up incarcerated or homeless by the time they reach their adult years. My mother is a school social worker. She works with kids that are in and out of foster homes and consistently end up back in group homes and she works really, really hard for them to offer them a better life when they're expected to live on their own and are no longer in school where they typically find that additional support. So my next question is, how do you think we can help the foster care system as long as abortion access is limited? I think that we just need to get involved. Be there, get kids out of there, or even if you're not fostering, just maybe volunteer there. Go take kids out for ice cream. Just go be there. You just have to be involved. Make the kids feel loved because they are. It was just bad timing for the parent, but I believe that you should never kill a baby. Their life hasn't even started. That's what I think. Would you ever be a foster parent? I would. I am excited. After me and my husband get married, have our kids, then they go off to college, then we're going to foster and hopefully adopt until they go off to college. Yeah, that's great. That's so great. I'm so excited. Okay, so yesterday I read a lot. I saw that the Supreme Court is considering whether the federal law can require an emergency abortion in states with strict bans. So if you lay this out, they're really considering whether it's legal to just let a woman die in a medical emergency because the fetus is more important. How do you feel about this? First, I think I don't like abortion, but it is okay if both the fetus and the mother are going to die. Both of them are going to die, so if you have to get rid of the baby to keep one of them, then you should. I also believe it's how far along the fetus is in the stage. If the fetus is born and it can't even live a day outside of the womb, then obviously don't prioritize the mother because the baby won't be able to live. But if it's older, like in the 8th or 9th month, then I think you should keep the baby because they haven't lived a life yet. They have so much longer. They have a longer life than the mother does, so I think that's also an important thing to think about. All right, Allie, well that's all I have for you today. I really appreciate you coming. Thanks for having me. All right, next with us is my friend Molly. She takes the pro-choice perspective. Welcome, Molly. Hi, I'm Molly. I'm just going to ask you two questions. Are you ready? Yes. All right, my first question is why do you think having access to abortion is important? Okay, I think that it is important as my right as a woman to have access to abortion. I mean, I have a reproduction system in my body that allows me to give life if I choose to do so, and I don't think it's anyone else's choice but mine if I want to choose whether or not to do so, especially because of history. Abortions are going to happen anyway, so I think it's more so whether or not access to safe abortions are important. Yeah, for sure. All right, my second question is you say you support the right for a woman to make her own reproductive choices in regards to abortion and contraception. Are there any restrictions you would approve of? Okay, so like I said, I think that a woman should be able to do whatever she wants, like personally with her body, but for my own opinion in my body, I think like 10 weeks is when I would make a restriction. I also don't think women should be allowed to get an abortion like more than one time a year. Like they should not be using it as a form of birth control. Yeah. So that's something like I would restrict. A lot of pro-lifers say if you chose to have sex and get pregnant, then that baby is your consequence, and if they're old enough to have sex, they're old enough to have a baby. How do you feel about that? I think that once again, like a woman can do whatever she wants with her body, and I think that people, I mean everyone likes sex. Like everyone is, like it's like if you don't want to get fat, don't eat candy, but it's like everyone likes candy, like sometimes you indulge. Right. I think yeah, I mean obviously I think that you should use contraceptives and all that stuff, but I understand sometimes mistakes happen, just like you like we're human. Right. I love that. That was a great analogy. When do you think life begins, if not at conception? I think that life begins around six weeks, because that's when their nervous system and brain is formed. Like even though their heart is formed before that, I just don't think that the fetus is like living. It's not even like a being yet. Right, yeah. That's just what I think. Yeah, so if life does begin at conception, I feel extremely sad for those babies that are grown inside the mother, but already know they won't be keeping it, and are going to give it up, and having to endure all the physical and mental hardships of growing a baby. I think it's so sad and also sort of unfair to that woman, and also that child, as it sits in foster care or an adoption facility for the beginning of its life, when affection and attention is most important. Yes, I agree. When a parent or both the parents decide they can't take care of their child or their children, they can either be placed up for adoption, where they'll wait for more permanent commitment, or they can be put in a foster care system, which is used to provide a more temporary care for kids, while their birth parents cannot care for them. This means that at some point, their parents will take them back when they're ready, but the sad fact is, most either aren't allowed to take their kids back, which is either because of drugs or abuse, or they don't feel that they'll ever be stable enough. How do you feel about that? I think that, I don't know, it's hard because I don't know much about the foster care system, but I think that obviously we can prevent stuff like that from happening with abortion, but there's also other things that come along with it. Like there's, other than abortion, you can definitely do more. Right, so the foster care system is already seriously overwhelmed, and now with the DOPS decision, the situation is set to only get worse, with even more kids being given up to their parents that may be able to care for them. How do you feel about this? I think that it's really sad, and a big issue in the United States. I don't, like I said, like I don't know much, but I've heard and seen circumstances where the child is unsafe, or not being cared for well enough, and I think that banning abortion could really impact the foster care system, and really worsen conditions for the children. However, I don't think, like I said before, banning abortion is the main cause for the foster system. I think that more awareness needs to be brought to this, and the government and law needs to be more involved in setting up a better system. I agree, completely. How do you feel about homosexuality and gay couples? Okay, yes, I support that. Okay, so the Supreme Court has ruled that foster care agencies can reject same-sex couples. Do you think that this is fair? Um, I think, I don't think that they, I mean, I guess it's hard. I don't think that they're going to be any less loving than a heterosexual couple, so I don't think that that's fair, but I also think that, I wish that children could choose, but obviously they're young enough, like they won't be able to. Right. Do you know what happens to the children in the foster system who never get fostered or adopted? First, I know a little bit. I know that some of them, they just grow out of it and kind of have to fend for themselves, or they get adopted, or, I don't really know, no. Yeah, so some make good lives for themselves, that is if they go to school and they find a job, but many end up incarcerated or homeless by the time they reach their adult years. My mom is a school social worker. She works with kids that are in and out of foster homes and consistently end up back in group homes, and she works really hard for them to offer them a better life when they're expected to live on their own. It's just sad. Yeah. I don't feel like that's what people think about when they say, have this baby, and if you can't, put it up for adoption, but she really thinks about, like. Yeah, especially when they get out of the adoption and they're just like, they don't have anyone to guide them through life. Yeah. Like, that's like us right now. Imagine if we had no guidance. Right. So yesterday I was reading that the Supreme Court was considering whether federal law can require emergency abortion care in states with strict bans. So if you lay this out, they're considering whether it's legal to just let a woman die in a medical emergency because the fetus is more important. How do you feel about that? Okay. This is like the same thing with, like, death row and stuff. I think that, like, the person, a mother and a fetus that is not born yet is not the same thing at all. Like, the mother has memories and has relationships and has impact on people, and yes, it's sad for some to let the baby pass away, but this is a whole mother. Like, so many, there's so many impacts that that could have, and yeah, that just doesn't make sense to me. Yeah. My last question is... And why, sorry, why would you let the baby live and not the mother? There's this analogy, it's something like, save the tree, not the apples or something. Yeah. Like, she is the earther. Yeah, who is supposed to care then? And then it probably just goes in the adoption. So my last question is, how do you think this can help the foster care system as long as abortion access is limited? I'm not really positive about this. I just think that, like, more awareness to this for sure. Like, I haven't heard anything of, like, foster care systems in so long. Like, nothing about it. There's nothing, there's no awareness or anything, or like, for this. And I think a lot more people, including myself, need to be educated on it. I don't think a lot of people are aware what a lot of people are aware what conditions that the kids live in, or how their lives are, or how their lives end up to be. Like, I personally don't know anyone who has been fostered or, like, adopted or anything, which, like, also goes to the point of, like, where do their lives go? Because I'm a college student. Kind of makes sense that there's no one I know in college that's foster. Right. Yeah. All right, Bobby, well, that's all I have today. I really appreciate you coming in. Thank you for having me. I think that we have a lot to learn from these two girls' differing point of views. I wrote down some notes just so we could compare back to back. Right off the bat, Allie said she'd excuse cases of rape, which that and incest tend to be the most top priority excused excuses from pro-lifers. And Molly has her own personal boundaries that she shared in. She also stated that she doesn't believe abortion should be a safe alternative all the time. I do agree in cases of women having non-viral pregnancies back to back. I do disagree, because that is devastating in itself, but I do see what she is saying. Molly also had a good point saying basically abortions are bound to happen, and she is right. The many women who abort other fetuses to save themselves or save the fetus from pain, both in the womb and outside, in the cases of babies being doomed to not live more than a few minutes, and also non-viral pregnancies. No one should have to grow something inside of themselves only for it to be born dead. I really liked that she had said they should be allowed so that they stay a safe alternative. I think that was really important. I asked Allie the question regarding mother's lives, in which Allie said they are considered, but when I mentioned the mom with cancer, she said that the mom should wait, which cancer needs to be treated actively, otherwise that person will die. Allie brought up fault. She said she blames the mom when you need a sperm to create an embryo, which is something that just really irks me. It's always the woman's fault, where Molly said she has a belief of saving the mom because you can have another baby, but you can't have another wife, friend, or daughter, and then the potential that that baby could end up in foster care with only one parent to take care of it, or no one at all. Allie had brought up government support when I asked her what a mom should do when she can't afford those checkups and those ultrasounds. You need to apply to things like Medicare and Medicaid. Money is not just handed out, and if you're 17, you probably cannot afford to pay for those checkups. If you're homeless, you're kind of screwed. So I think that those were definitely left out of the conversation. They both brought up community and community support. Allie said that the community should support the system and be foster parents, but she wasn't too keen on the idea of two same-sex partners raising a child, where Molly talked a lot of awareness and updating a family system, which I loved. I thought that was very important. When Allie brought up fault, Molly had an interesting analogy about candy. She said consensual sex should never feel like a consequence, but sometimes shit happens. You eat candy, you grow an extra roll, you have sex with a condom, you get pregnant. Accidents just happen. You can't always control everything. The last thing I will say is that the two talked a lot on education and awareness on a failing system. I think society really doesn't know the effects and the outcomes for these children who are sent into the foster care system. I think a lot of pro-life mindsets is that someone will want these kids and someone will take them in, but that is just not the case for so many young ones. These babies are sent to the system and sometimes don't leave until they're 18 and are forced to be on their own, and it's a sad, sad life for these kids. It's not fair and it could just all be avoided. A terrible life could be avoided. I think that we need to promote education and support for the foster care system for these kids that are already in the system. I don't think we need to support the unborn fetuses in the foster care system. A study from JAMA Pediatrics says over 4 million children were placed into the foster care system between January 2000 to December 2023. There was an 11% increase in foster care placement after abortion access was restricted in states with trap laws. Restricted abortion access has shown numerous consequences, and these findings reveal a heightened strain on the U.S. foster care system, particularly affecting marginalized racial and ethnic communities and financially vulnerable families. These placements have been shown to have lifelong consequences for children, but also substantial costs for both states and federal government. Ashley Marie Amat from the Justice Policy Journal zooms in on the foster care system and why it matters to the abortion ban. She focuses on incarceration and other major problems within the system. There are thousands of foster care kids facing shortages of placements, low high school graduation rates, and disproportionately high rates of incarceration and homelessness. Amat claims these problems will only get worse with the growing foster care system after DOBS because there's no new funding or accountability. Child welfare advocates say they're concerned about a growing foster care-to-prison pipeline. An including survey of foster care alumni showed that by their 25th birthdays, 81% of males had been arrested and one in three were incarcerated. Bilbo Davile from Tulane University claims that the red states tend to have limited access to health care, poor health outcomes, and fewer safety net programs in place for mothers and children. The U.S. maternal mortality rates and poor health care outcomes remain consistently higher compared to other wealthy countries. Even before the overturn of Roe versus Wade, the past decades have witnessed an increasing passage of policies and regulations restricting access to abortion care across states. During this time, access to care varied across the U.S. with six states having only one abortion clinic in operation. They predict that because of this, the ensuing increase in births will likely leave families in tough circumstances and strange systems that are already hanging by a thread. That is all I have for today. Thank you for tuning in to Let's Talk About It.