GenderStudies Podcast - Alison&Dulliean

Alison and Dylan discuss the topic of gender in European institutions. They mention their personal interest in gender equality and their desire to work for these institutions. They discuss the history of gender policies and the importance of understanding how far we have come and how to further improve. They mention the focus on pay transparency and the case law surrounding gender equality. They also talk about the founding principles of gender rights in the EU and the importance of social policies. They highlight the Equal Remuneration Convention and the Treaty of Rome as key milestones in gender equality. They mention the focus on equal pay and employment opportunities. They discuss the gender pay gap and discrimination faced by women in the workplace. They mention the case of Gabrielle Defraim and how it broadened the definition of gender equality. They talk about the Equal Pay Act in the UK and the Equality Treatment Directive in the EU. They mention the importance of gender opport Good afternoon, we've chosen to engage with the topic Gender in European Institutions, making a timeline of past and previous gender policies, taking interest in economic areas such as pay transparency, some case law and strategies. We'll also pause to discuss some key players who interest us and give our opinions on the current state of gender equality in the EU. So, without further ado, I'd like to introduce you to my esteemed colleague here. It's a great introduction. Hi, I'm Alison, or Ali. I'm one of Dylan's classmates and I'm 24 years old. I use the pronoun she, her. And I guess the reason that gender in the European Union is so important to me is the fact that it's the reality that I live daily. I hope to one day work for the institutions and I want as many opportunities open to me as possible, one of the reasons why I have such a big opinion on it. I don't want to be paid less than the guy in the cubicle next to me, shockingly enough, I know. But I also know it took a lot for us as a society to get to the place where I can have that demand. And it's important to understand how we got to this point and how we can further improve. My focus is on legislation, both historically, currently and in the future, with some emphasis on trends and historical influence. I also have a slight stutter. I apologise in advance. This is a vocal quirk of mine that I can't get rid of. I've tried. I'd love to. Fortunately, it's stuck with me from childhood and I'm keeping it for the foreseeable future. Our sequel to the King's Speech. All right, so getting started. Oh, wait, where are my manners? I forgot to introduce myself. Hello, I'm Dylan. I'm a master's student at the University of Flensburg in conjunction with UL. I work part time as a teacher in particular with lunches, so I built a sensitivity towards diversity. I've made friends over the years from all different backgrounds and cultures, members of the LGBT community especially. And I'd love to be an advocate for the EU in the future. I chose this topic because it has been an issue prior to the EU during its establishment and inevitably in the next coming years. Researching this topic made me understand as well that there is obviously a level of discrimination, but not everything is black and white. Some arguments have been made that there is unequal pay. And while this is to some extent true, there are also other factors which are not being looked at. I'm going to look at the reasons for which the gender pay gap is there and why women are not able to avail of opportunities in the workplace and offer policy recommendations along the way, assuming of course I'm qualified to do that. I am qualified. I'm not telling you you can't. Okay. So without further ado, our topic, which is focusing gender equality policy, for me, that is in terms of payment and employment opportunities. So this has been an issue for years. Most of our research will be based on the context of women. But of course, as Foster Sterling so eloquently observed, there are no longer two genders, but countless ones. So to start off with the pay gap, I was reading a Washington Post article quoting our wise and all-knowing democratic activist Elizabeth Warren, who noted that 99.6% of all occupations have men getting paid more than women. That's not an accident. That's discrimination. The pay gap would have been especially true prior to the 1950s. And it's really only been in the last 100 years that issues like these have been tackled in Europe. In 1951, the UN International Labour Organization's Equal Remuneration Convention indicated the principle of equal pay for men and women, doing work of equal value. In addition, in 1957, the Treaty of Rome listed equal pay for men and women as a key principle of the EEC. Over to you, Ali. So gender rights in the EU is actually a founding principle. Some may not know that, dating back to the beginning of the European Economic Committee, though it was passed into just a question of women's rights itself. Since 1957, as Devin mentioned, the principle that sexes should be equal, or at least receive equal pay, was first introduced in the Treaty of Rome, specifically in the Article 119. Now, Professor Noreen Burroughs states that this article was included in the treaty initially due to the French government being concerned with other member states having had less social welfare provisions. This is the first incidence of gender equality. And thankfully, not the last. And it would go to include one of the most important aspects of EU legislation. Dylan will discuss the initial focus on pay and economic benefits of gender equality, and trust me, there's many. However, I'm going to speak on a broader approach that includes more social policies, like the social aspects and reading of the article. So it was until 1970 that, when the article was quoted, brought to life, and cases were brought to the European Court of Justice on the basis of violations against the article. The most famous of which is the Defraim case. This is a historic moment, because this case didn't just look at Article 119 in terms of pay, but at something that had a broader and arguably more important role in furthering the rights of women in a large sense. The case centred around Gabrielle Defraim, a former air hostess, and Ariane Sabina, her former employer. The grounds looked at discrimination she faced as a female employee in terms of pay in comparison to male colleagues, who were called cavern stewards, and had a higher pay and a different title, despite doing the same job. And the judgment essentially caused a re-evaluation of the article that changed the definition from being purely economic to forming part of the social objectives Ota set out in the treaty, wherein it was stated that the article now had a double aim, to not only promote the economic union of Europe, but to be constantly striving to ensure social progress and seek constant improvement of the living and working conditions of their people, as stated by the judgment itself and handed down from the High Court. Now, the 1970s saw a huge stride in the field of gender equality, both in the EU and outside of it. Right, Dylan? David Bowie! Oh, wait, no. Yeah, Ali. So, in the 1970s, in 1970 more specifically, the United Kingdom introduced their Equal Pay Act three years before joining the EU, so they clearly had more EU values and were better integrated than they are today, as emphasised by Brexit. Don't get me started with Brexit. Don't get us started about Brexit. But in terms of European Union, they were starting to recognise gender at policy level officially. Right, Ali? Oh, right. So, this came about in the ETD, or the Equality Treatment Directive, this is a very catchy name, in 1976, which has become the bedrock for gender rights policies in Europe and it has been revealed and recast and updated several times, most recently in 2006. It's probably due for another one. It's stated categorically that the principle of equal treatment shall mean that there will be no discrimination whatsoever on grounds of sex, either directly or indirectly, by reference in particular to marital or family status. Now, this is really interesting to look at in a 2023 lens, because the statement is both binary and non-binary, if that's possible. It doesn't actually say women or men, but the inclusion of family and specifically marital status far more substantially would affect women. Wording like this, at least in my opinion, counteracts a lot of arguments you see from TERFs, those being trans-exclusionary radical feminists and other similar groups, who claim that the word women is being excluded from our society and legislations designed to protect them, example, pregnant women or pregnant people. I would disagree with that. I think pregnant people is fine. Because here we have one of the earliest pieces of policy and while it insinuates protection for women over men, it was written to be gender inclusive for the time, shockingly enough. We've come a long way. One area in gender opportunities at work that's a crucial part of this piece is, one example of this is the Green Party in Germany. I love Germany. Just saying is all combined both left wing and neoliberal ideologies. And Elena Baerbock was co-leader of the Green Party from 2018 to 2022. She has been the Minister for Foreign Affairs since 2021. She is going for chancellorship and is the only woman to have been in the race since Angela Merkel. Since 1979, they've always had two leaders, one male and one female. At least 50% of their elected posts must go to women. So as they say, two heads are better than one. And Eleanor E. McCabe did a study into gender differences in the psychology of sex differences. And her position is that there's no significant difference in the overall intellectual aptitude of boys and girls. But she further argues that intellectual development in girls is fostered by their being assertive and active. This is true as we see in school. I went to an all boys school and my teacher for English had a way of patronising us into taking notes. She would always say, I notice no one is taking this down. If I was in an all girls school, they would be taking a part in this and I would have a smile on my face because they would be getting better grades. Girls get better grades than boys. I went to a mixed school. I can confirm that this is true. Well, my point is, this shows how women tend to have a higher capacity for education than men, as evidenced by the fact that there are more women who graduate from university than men. And yet there are more men who are in positions of power, which is why this example stands out. This is also illustrating the developmental stages, as it's showing us that men and women clearly don't think alike, but also the fact that not all women think alike as well. I mean, Marco was a very brave woman and did a lot for the Syrian refugee crisis, but was a member of the Conservative Party, less open to change, while Baerbock is more democratic, which is obviously a complete antithesis. So there is a contrast with how they think politically, and it illustrates that there's no difference in the idea of two men who may have different opinions. So if we put all that together, in your opinion, why are there less women in positions of power? So in terms of the EU, employment rates for men of working age was 77.2% in 2020, exceeding women who had a rate of 66.2%. So there's a difference there of 11%. Well, they're tending to take smaller positions despite their credentials. For instance, taking the flight industry, like you mentioned there, a second going, different case where most of the stewards are female. There might be a woman who is working as an air hostess, who may be more qualified to fly the plane than the male pilots. What's more, the idea of leadership has long been more associated with men than women. So there was an account written by the historian Thucydides during the Peloponnesian War, which she recounts a man named Pericles who gives a funeral oration speech where he says, The greatest glory for any woman is to be least talked about by men, whether they are praising you or criticizing you, and not to be inferior to what God has already made you. As far as he's concerned, women are second-class citizens and baby-making machines with no place as a leader in society or domestic. Pericles would just love me. I don't doubt it. Returning to what I said about Maccabi, she discovered that men are more aggressive. So this aggression, while complex, is often applied to conflict, which is demonstrated by the fact that there are more men in jail than women. Or men just get caught more. Either way, well deserved. Hear, hear. The conflict arises in employment opportunities where men argue for a raise or a higher job rather than taking what they're given. Examples of results being achieved, such as in 1975 when women in Iceland went on strike for a day refusing to work, cook or care for children. She discovered that men are motivated for the individual's sake, while women are more interested in relationships and want to please people and so do their best not to upset the status quo. So this suggests why more women are likely to work in part-time jobs and so explains why the pay, as well as the employment, is not balanced, why it tends to be lower for women. Work is the best way to empower women economically and so it's important to increase women's labour market participation and politics, specifically nationally, like is the case here with Fair Work and at EU level as well. Speaking of, I'm just going to take a minute or two to talk about one of those significant women in politics at EU level. I don't know if you've seen the thing from Anna Taylor-Joy talking about the menu and she's like, I have a thing about feminine rage. I have a thing about women in history. Well, you see, the thing is that history implies his story. So it's quite a difficult thing to talk about, isn't it? Well, I'm going to do it. Good luck. Because we only really talk about women in history when it's attached to who they're married to. So just to deviate a little bit, I want to talk about Simone Bale. She was born, Simone Jacob, in 1927 to a Jewish family and niece in France and she's a Holocaust survivor and she served as the first female secretary to the Council of the Magistrate in France. Now, a little fun story though, is that in 1974 when Valérie Descartes, I'm sorry for my pronunciation, became president of France and went to the Vale House in order to offer a job to Simone's husband, Antoine, who was a famous and very successful civil servant in his own right, but left after employing Simone instead. She went on to serve as a minister for health under his government and in 1979 he came to her asking to go on to the ballot for something and she said yes. Now, that ballot was to be elected as the president of the first directly elected European Parliament and she won and she was the first woman to head any institution in the EU and she was the chair of the Legal Affairs Committee and a part of so many more. She received the Charlemagne Prize in 1981 for her contributions to European unity, which really stemmed from her experience as a young person and altogether she served 14 years as a member of the European Parliament in some capacity. Now, upon her death in 2017, Antonio Tajani described her as the great conscience of the EU, someone who's against antisemitism and an offender of women's rights as human rights. And it's someone I think that more European Union citizens, especially women and young girls, should hear about. So thanks for letting me have that moment. History is also her story. Now, the Nazis are kind of boring, so let's skip on to the 2000s. According to the European Parliament Eurobarometer flash survey made in 2012, obviously 10 years ago, but I'm going to show a lot of points that are kind of relevant today. So Europeans consider the most important gender inequality to be violence against women at 48%, followed closely by the pay gap at 43%, which clearly highlights the importance of our topic. They were also asked about measures that would do the most to reduce the pay gap between women and men. So on this point, Europeans were divided on whether incentives or penalties would be more effective, with very similar scores being recorded for facilitating access for women and men to any type of employment at 27%, imposing financial penalties on companies that do not respect gender equality at 26%, and transparent pay scales in companies at 24%. Now, however, gender in the institutions at EU level is one of the biggest topics of discussion surrounding women's rights and the rights of other minority genders today. It is one of my favourite things to talk about, because despite all these directives, programs, guidelines, Eurobarometers, women's political representation in EU institutions, let alone trans-nonbinary, are kind of a mess. Now, in 2012, same year as that barometer, data produced by the World Forum Global Gender Gap Index, oh my lord, documented by Alessandra Vazandi, stated that there wasn't such a thing as a European approach to gender representation among EU member states, which contradicts the figures presented by Dylan. Oh, you sure showed me. A little over 10 years later, the gender pay gap in the EU stands at 13%, on average, according to the European Commission. So, the question is raised on which method is best to apply, because the figures are very similar, and this figure also applies to employment opportunities. To return to the European Commission report in 2021, 67.7% of women were in employment, while men's employment stood at 78.5%, which is a relatively small gap than the pay gap. So, surprisingly, these are improvements in the last decade, but clearly not by much. So, would you expect that the position of the pay gap still holds close to the top as a priority? I think the aim of this within the context of the EU is to see to what extent what Warren says there is true within the context of today. So, for example, Scandinavian and Nordic countries are the most female-friendly zone that's emphasised by their advocation for abortion, and as well as how they applaud for gender and equality in terms of pay and in terms of employment opportunities. The Equal Pay Certification was brought in in 2017, and stresses that it's not about the money, it's about equality. Equality is a prime European value, so this ties in with what I was saying about European integration being key for our victory here. The EU Transparency Register has been in force since July 2021. According to us, this means communicating pay practices to employees and explaining how pay is determined. So, this sheds more light on the subject, and it's going to be great to justify the discrimination that Warren was discussing, because we want to create every possibility to lower that gap of 13%. So, what else is in the way? Well, this is being met with some resistance and pessimism. Surprise, surprise. According to Tomás Ablós, the managers have to justify wage differentials and make adjustments that rectify potentially discriminatory rewards from the past. But the solution he recommends is making sure that what transparency reveals is fair. So, hopefully this will give the managers a boost and encourage them to step up. Also, Spain's parliament approved a package of sexual and reproductive reform covering areas including transgender rights and women's health. In the new legislation, paid menstrual leave is included, which makes Spain the first European country to do so. A doctor's note will be required and costs will be covered by the country's social security system. Spain is an actual surprising leader when it comes to gender rights, and I will come back to them in a bit later. But for the record, I believe that this should be an EU-wide directive. Hear, hear. There is also support for gender quotas on executive boards and do more to address the gender pay gap on LGBTQ plus rights. They want to prohibit any discrimination based on someone's gender identity. Speaking of the executive board's quota, the directive was adopted by the EU surrounding this in 2022. So, Alison, can you talk a bit about this collaboration, maybe a little more? Actually, yes, I can. So, we are actually currently in the midst of the EU Gender Equality Strategy from 2020 to 2025, which is a commitment by Ursula von der Leyen to achieve a union of equality. And it's of anthropological objectives and actions meant to make a significant progress for 2025 towards a gender-equal Europe. The goal is a union where women and men, girls and boys in all their diversity are free to pursue their chosen path in life with equal opportunities to thrive and equally participate in and lead our European society, at least according to the Official Commission website. Now, the key objectives are great. Ending gender-based violence, as you said, in 2012, it was the most worrying situation. Challenging stereotypes. Finally, closing gender gaps in the labour market and changing gender balance in politics. All great objectives, but if I could be controversial for a few seconds. They created a five-year plan to essentially achieve the bare minimum. The proposal for an EU directive against violence and domestic violence, in all forms, was adopted in 2022. That's alarmingly late. And it's a proposal, it's not even a directive yet, and nowhere near being transferred into national law. But you asked me about the directive on quotas on corporate boards. That was adopted in November of last year and was described as a milestone. It shouldn't be. Also, despite being deliberately elusive in the 50s and 60s in their writing of gender policy, this strategy specifically states women all over it, as does the directive on gender balance. In a time when non-binary, trans, intersex, gender-fluid identities are more visible than ever. It probably feels, while not deliberate, it does feel like a distraction. Look over here, we're trying to achieve stuff we should have already done, but don't mention trans or any other identities. Too controversial. Don't ask why we keep letting countries like Poland get away with blatant discrimination. Like the case of Laura, a Catalan trans woman whose partner decided not to accept their identity and moved their children to Poland. The Spanish courts, as I said, I'm a big fan of the Spanish courts and their national law surrounding gender rights, found the wrongful removal case in her favor, but Poland said no. And rejected to return children on the official basis that acting like women would expose them to psychological harm and put them in an intolerable situation that is not natural. That's just one example. Now, seeking to have a 50-50 split in the parliament is great. The youngest ever parliament president was elected, and she's a woman. Ursula von der Leyen wanting more female commissioners like Marie McGuinness is awesome. The three top jobs we have in the institutions are all held by women at the moment. But it silences those not on the binary. It pushes them aside as if there's an unspoken promise that, wait your turn, we'll get to you, while continuation of our women's rights movement is going on, even though that should have been sorted decades ago. Discrimination and hatred towards trans people, the LGBTQIA community, continues as the far right ideology and populism grows ever more powerful in the EU. When is it their turn? Because it seems to me the strategy doesn't acknowledge the voices of trans people who are non-binary or their experiences or promote their right to be active in politics. If the commission keeps turning a blind eye to blatant disregard to the rights of their LGBTQ citizens being tarnished nationally, what's the point of new legislation if it's going to be ignored? But I feel like that might be for our generation to figure out. Well, do you want to know what I think? I feel the European Commission must continue to bring in legislation to encourage member states to advocate these changes and monitor, keep track, and police these protocols in their area and make sure they're being properly enforced. In addition, I feel that the freedom of women is very much linked to rights for members of the LGBT community, which, again, are not welcomed in some areas of Europe, including in the EU where democratic backsliding is evident. As far as politics go, we cannot change other people's minds. For instance, how we as two liberal, open-minded feminists might think would be very different to how someone else might think. However, we can take actions to let them come to their own conclusions themselves, which one would hope would be taking the same position ultimately that we do on the topic. So we could keep talking about this for hours. However, our time is coming up. So just to conclude and wrap up, Dylan, do you have anything else, any policy recommendations? Well, to quote the Declaration of the Rights of Woman, A woman has the right to mount the scaffold. She must equally possess the right to mount the speaker's platform. A woman is born free and remains equal to man in rights. In terms of policy recommendations, I have several, but in the interest of time, I'm going to narrow it down. So my argument is that more European integration is needed for equal pay and employment opportunities for women as well as various different genders to advance. This is evidenced by the fact that women's rights are not well demonstrated in member states such as Hungary and Poland, like you mentioned, Alison, where democratic backsliding is most apparent and European values are not adhered to or taken seriously, such as freedom, equality and justice. So that should be the case for women. These should be taken to a higher level. Luxembourg has the lowest gender pay gap in Europe and was one of the first countries to join the EEC and is now where several European institutions are currently based. To quote our wise finance minister, Christine Allegarde, when I became finance minister, I was surrounded by men. When I joined the IMF, I was surrounded by men. So it's not something that is new for me, but it's something that is always disappointing because we do a much better job when we are better represented, both genders, male and female. So in all the positions that I've had and I continue to do that, I want to make sure that women get promoted, that they get a chance and that if they have the talent and if they want it, they are given a chance. But it is tough, let's face it. So she's very much right. I think that the Me Too movements that the European Parliament have formed need to double their efforts so that women can have the confidence to apply for higher paying jobs, such as the European Parliament, without fear of violence or sexual misconduct. And we need to, at the very least, try and convince people to adopt more liberal ideologies, convince them to be more open minded and open their eyes to something new. Alison, anything from you? First of all, I want to thank you for bringing up the Me Too movement. As a member of the 97% myself, it's something that we don't really talk about socially, let alone in our political institutions. So I really like that you brought that up. Otherwise, my last few statements is actually a bit of an open wide message to the EU institutions, as I hope to work for you someday and I'm coming for you. And I hope to be the future Ronan Farrow. Implement your policies effectively. Soft law is great. Guidelines are great. Strategies are great. But I look through decades of case law and decades of directives, and I don't think we've actually gotten as far as you'd like to pretend we are. Allowing Poland and Hungary to get away with ruining hard work is going backwards. It's not forward. And you have more than just two genders to consider. There is an entire youth of transgender people and intersex and gender fluid who also deserve to be represented at the EU level. But that's all. That's a story for another day. That's all I really have at this point in time. So thank otherwise. Thank you very much. Thanks for listening. Have a great day. God bless.