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Transcription
The podcast discusses the concept of co-resistance as a means to achieve peace and justice in the Israel-Palestine conflict. Co-resistance builds upon the idea of co-existence but rejects the normalization of the occupation. It involves Israelis, Palestinians, and diaspora Jews coming together to resist the occupation and reject violence. Examples of co-resistance include protests against corruption reforms and organizations like Combatants for Peace and the Parents Circle Families Forum. To grow the co-resistance movement, it is important to normalize discussions, humanize the enemy, create justice, and reach a critical mass of participants. The ultimate goal is to end the conflict and create lasting peace. Hello and welcome to our podcast today. My name is Aaron and we are going to be discussing as our group the possibilities for peace and justice through co-resistance. I am currently joined by my name is Tia, Nina, Ben, Marty, and we want to start out this discussion by kind of honing in on the definition of what is co-resistance. So I will just open this up to the table if anyone wants to take it. Yeah, so I'll start. Co-resistance is kind of based off of the idea of co-existence first. It kind of goes hand in hand in a sense. Co-existence is when two parties just live harmoniously together and applying this to Israel-Palestine just respecting each other's rights and identities for a shared future. Yeah, so the term co-existence is kind of more in a negative light now because a lot of people have claimed that it supports normalization, which in turn claims that it is normal for this conflict to exist and for the occupation to exist, which it is not and it should not be normalized, which out of this idea came the term co-resistance after the Second Intifada. And co-resistance is essentially adding on to the basis of co-existence, which was more so talking and learning how to live together, but co-resistance is Israelis and Palestinians as well as diaspora Jews coming together to talk about why to resist the occupation itself with all having the same goal of being against the occupation rather than learning how to live within it, as well as that it rejects the violence that has come out of the occupation. And yeah. I was just going to quickly say, so real co-existence can only really happen if co-resistance happens first and changes actually happen on an institutional level. When the power dynamics are fixed. Yeah, that was a really good point. I like how the idea of co-existence is seen as kind of just like a term where it's like we don't have to deal with it, like it's being compliant with the issue, with the conflict and just learning how to live with it rather than trying to like actually deal with it or like find a solution out of it. And it allows some Israelis to turn a blind eye to the occupation by justifying it as like we can all live together peacefully and ignoring all the things that come with that occupation and the oppression of the Israeli government. Yeah, great point. Anyone else want to speak on this topic of co-resistance? No? Alright, then we can move on to our next topic of discussion, which would be how is co-resistance already happening in Israel and Palestine? Yeah, so one major example that already happened was back in 2018 with the Netanyahu protest. So basically what happened then was Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu tried to propose some reforms to Israel's judiciary, which would have kind of allowed him to avoid facing prosecutions of his corruption charges. And these reforms have been highly criticized by human rights groups, legal organizations, and civil society groups. And these reforms affect both parties, both Israelis and Palestinians. So they, because of this, there were some joint protests in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem demanding the end to the corruption. Yeah, and these protests sort of continued very recently in Tel Aviv in 2023, where Netanyahu was once again trying to push these reforms, actually kind of succeeded in pushing through these reforms. And it sort of is like this one example of these two groups coming together, in this case, just to fight one common enemy in one niche scenario of they really, both groups really don't like this judicial reform. But there are also other groups that are actual groups rather than just a disorganized protest that are working to come together to resolve and create lasting peace in the end of this conflict, if you guys want to talk about that. Yeah, so the Combatants for Peace is an organization that involves both Palestinians and Israelis. And their mission is to actually just end occupation. And they kind of advocate for more of a two-state solution. And they work together as a grassroots organization. And they do advocate for rejecting violence and wanting to reach the end goal of coexistence. Yeah, and it is important to mention that there are very many that exist. But among those that stood out was the Combatants for Peace and also the Parents Circle Families Forum, which is an organization comprised of over 600 families that meet and talk about family members they have lost due to the conflict or due to the other side. And finding compassion within that because it would be easy to just turn around and create more violence. But through this discussion, there's a realization that if you keep going on with the bloodshed, the conflict is just never going to get resolved because it's just going to keep causing violence, which is, again, the reason for the need for nonviolence, which is especially important for the Combatants for Peace, but yes, other organizations. It's just a cycle of violence. Right. Yeah, I like what both of those organizations are doing. You know, Parents Circle Families Forum, I think it's interesting how it has gotten to this point where there had to be damage to both sides for them to come together and realize the impact that they have on each other. And just recognizing that is a huge first step towards possibilities for peace and justice. So those are some great organizations doing some work. If there's not anything else on this topic. I also think, for me, it's a great source for hope because if people have had immediate families that have died, daughters or sons that have died and have been able to still continue in the dialogue and understand and emphasize, the fact that those people who have loved those members the most were able to work through it is really encouraging, I feel like. Yeah, I totally agree. It's hopeful. Yeah, I think that goes back to that idea in class where we talked about personal transformation that people go through. And unfortunately, I guess some people go through it with death and the loss of a loved one. But yeah, that idea of personal transformation, changing your views on the whole conflict is, I think, key. The next topic that I want to open up to discussion is how can we get the co-resistance movement to grow and continue to move towards the goals of peace and justice? Yeah, so I think in order to even reach co-resistance, we need to address some underlying issues. That's why we are here in the first place. And one way is obviously just normalizing discussion. Creating a safe space for parties to come together and actually discuss the conflict and the impact of the effects on their lives because this is a very personal issue and everyone wants to be seen and heard. And this can be involved with grassroots movements like the Combatants of Peace and the Parent Circle and just community initiatives, educational programs, just finding a common ground for there to be actual discussions for change because discussions between opposing groups is always the biggest place for growth to happen. Yes, and then I would say another aspect is humanizing the enemy in terms of just what these two organizations are already doing. But going further on that, I think the conflict with the separation wall, it makes it very difficult to literally see the other side and come in contact with the people who are supposed to be your enemies. And once you are in contact with them and you have those interactions, it's very quickly you realize that these are just other humans that have their same needs and same goals and desires as well. One example that I think here in San Francisco, there's this artist Chris Goslin who painted a giant mural on the freeway entrance to the 101 here in San Francisco depicting the separation wall and on one side they have a Palestinian woman picking oranges and the olive tree is there which is significant to Palestinians and the growth of their nature. But I think the work that he does here in San Francisco is trying to build that co-resistance internationally as well, like here in the States, educating people here and getting them aware of what's going on. I think humanization is also really important because even before a co-resistance movement comes along, if we're able to see each other as people first, it's a lot harder to justify violence. If you see someone that's not that evil Palestinian who is whatever, and you see them as a mother or a father or a child, it's a lot harder to justify military action and violence and oppression against them. It can help foster peace just by understanding. Another really important point is the creation of justice, which is a very complex idea because justice does not have one particular form, but it could mean a lot of different things to different people. So when talking about creating justice, it's important to understand what the people in practice feel would create that justice. So as I was saying, it does mean different things to everybody and you cannot get justice, even if somebody tries, in this current situation because there are very significant power imbalances right now and whatever justice happens is not going to be enough until the occupation stops and until both Israelis and Palestinians will actually be equal. And I feel like that's when you can start looking into ways to regain justice, which I think there's many ways. I think reparations might be a good way. Again, there's many different ones. Yeah, those are some great points. I guess, did you have anything else? Yeah, like from one of the movies we watched in class, there's this sort of idea of like, obviously Palestinians want justice for the things committed against them and Israelis, first and foremost, just want to feel safe, right? The world isn't exactly the most friendly to Jews, especially right now. But in one of the movies, there's this sort of idea of Israelis' security concerns will be met when the occupation ends and the Palestinians, at least the woman who said that in the film, we have no reason to fight back once you stop unjustly occupying our territory. You'll be safe when you stop oppressing us. I think that's a very valid point, but I would also like to add that that might not be necessarily true because right now there are some people that do not want to come to a peaceful conclusion because they don't feel like they would be... Many people don't want to come to a peaceful conclusion because they feel like or they feel like that land has been stolen from them and they want it back and they just don't want to live peacefully together, which I think it's definitely a minority, but I know that narrative might exist and might cause some problems eventually. Like no room for compromise because that's showing that I was wrong, but my belief is right. But I think that's a good way to transition into our final segment on how we actually see a co-resistant movement succeeding in creating peace and justice and an end to the conflict eventually. Because you have to reconcile with these sort of ultra-nationalist groups who don't want the conflict to end, at least peacefully. They're holdouts who always want all or nothing. Sometimes justifiably, but... Sometimes justifiably, sometimes not so much. But I think it's realistic to say that there's no way this ends with everyone being completely happy. But how do we not only get them to acquiesce, but also how do we get the Israeli government to acquiesce? Because at the moment it's controlled by a lot of those more extreme factions, which brings me to this lovely paper from a very smart person named Erica Chenoweth, which sort of found that really any non-violent movement, which of course it also found that non-violent movements like co-resistance are more successful, but any non-violent movement that reached 3.5% of the population actively participating in protest has ensured a proper political change. And that is both a very, very small number and yet at the same time a really huge number. To put that in context, in the United States, 3.5% would be over 11 million people. And in Israel-Palestine, if they both were to come together, that would be almost exactly 500,000 people, which is smaller, yes, but considering the most recent protests, which were very big, which had 10,000, 20,000 people, there needs to be a lot more people sort of hopping onto this movement and embracing it for it to succeed. But once it does, the government will acquiesce. And in the short term, that might mean a more longer end to hostile conflict and active conflict and more of a sort of cool down of tensions. And hopefully, in the long term, that will lead to a solution, whether that's a one-state solution or a two-state solution, whatever the co-resistant movement in the future would decide would be best. But that is probably the most realistic and possible scenario of how a movement of people coming together can create real and lasting political change. Yeah, I just have one final thought. I think that with my experience, my family is from northern India, which was very heavily affected by the partition. And I just see, I've seen parallels kind of like this whole semester. Obviously, it is a little bit different, but both, I'm talking about mainly West Pakistan, which is now modern-day Pakistan, and India, they worked together and resisted against the British. And then when they finally got a two-state, well, now three-state, but with Pakistan and India, those tensions have still kind of stayed. I still think it's way better than it was before, but I feel like it's similar to how I think things are going to go down with Israel and Palestine, where I think a two-state solution is probably most likely to occur, and it won't be perfect. I know in India, there were actual sister towns that were literally split in half. Seventeen million people have to move. There's still, India's still 25% Muslim. It's not perfect, and there's still tensions there. There's always my uncles in the army in India. There's always random little conflicts and random little things, and it's going to take a very long time for it to go away, but I think at least kind of history repeats itself, doesn't repeat itself, and there is a pattern. I think that, yeah, I just see that even with co-resistance. Yeah, I just, I don't know. I just wanted to point out that parallel that I saw. Yeah, I think it really shows that people coming together to sort of end a system that they don't like is possible, even if it doesn't necessarily end with them coming together permanently or ever being friends, really. It's possible to create some sort of peace at the end of a very long cycle of violence. Yeah, no, I totally agree. I know it was talked about before earlier, but just like seeing the government maybe taking ownership or responsibility for their actions against Palestinians and just the idea of reconciliation, I think it's what Ben was talking about. It has to come from the ground first. The people have to be able to make that movement to have that effect on the government, and I think that's going all the way back to the two organizations of Combatants for Peace and Parent Circle Family Forum of just like, you know, they're having these conversations already, like they're recognizing the damage that was done and talking about it. So I think, you know, they're already heading in the right direction as well. But if there's any last comments that anyone else wants to add. Yeah, I agree definitely. I think, you know, starting the conversation or normalizing the discussion is like basically the first step, and I think it's really important because justice for, like we've talked about or we've discussed at the table already, we could see like justice for some certain people could mean something totally different for other parties. So I think starting with the conversation and, you know, these communities or these organizations that are in place already are helping or it's a step in the right direction for sure. Yeah, and I think just like a good note to end on is sort of the idea that this sort of process is already in motion and as can be seen in other countries and other scenarios, similar ideas are possible for creating peace and it's already happening and it will hopefully only grow and really the best time to get started is now. For sure. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Any last words? I definitely agree that recognition of what was done wrong is an important step towards justice. But as I said earlier, I think a lot of the justice has to come or will come out of when the occupation has ended. And yeah, but I do think it's important to gain the justice and make sure that everybody who has committed certain crimes is appropriately dealt with. Held accountable. Held accountable for their crimes. But I think this will all come once the co-resistance movement is successful. So yeah. Cool. Well, thank you for listening and I hope you enjoyed. Yay!
