Nothing to say, yet
Transcription
The Dragon's Lair podcast discusses rugby and the recent disappointing performance of the Benetton team. They also preview the upcoming game between the Dragons and Connacht. The podcast features a guest, Ender, who is an expert on rugby media rights and broadcasting. Ender discusses his interest in the industry and highlights broadcasters like TG Cather, TNT, S4C, and BBC Alba, who do a good job in covering rugby. He also mentions the high viewing figures for the URC last season and emphasizes the importance of free-to-air broadcasters in providing access to games. Welcome to the Dragon's Lair. Hello and welcome to the Dragon's Lair podcast, your home of all things Dragons, RFC and Rugby in the region. I'm Jamie and joining me as always is Gavin Thomas. How are we doing, Gav? I'm well, Jamie, I'm well. I think this week I came to a kind of an existential moment in my life. So I couldn't watch the game live on Saturday because I was running cup finals for the RFU, for Sussex RFU. I went home, even though I knew the results, I went home and I watched the game, knowing the results, knowing what you had said to me about the game. It was about 60 minutes of the game. I don't understand why I do this to myself sometimes. Yeah, that was a video nasty, wasn't it, for you to catch up on. You can find us on platforms such as Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube and the Sports Social Network. And if you like what we do, please subscribe, share with your Dragons mates and leave us a good review as it all helps to grow the pod. Right, Gav, we'll talk about that disappointing Benetton performance a bit later. But first, the Dragons welcome Connacht to Rondie Parade on Saturday night. And to help us preview that game, we have a Connacht fan who's based in Dublin. He's co-host of the Pirate Rugby podcast and he's an expert on rugby media rights. Please welcome Ender to the pod. How are you doing, Ender? Are you OK? All good, lads. Thanks a million for having me on. No problem. No problem. Thank you very much for joining us. So, Ender, you run the Rugby Broadcast account on X, formerly known as Twitter. Can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and where your interest started in rugby media rights and broadcasting? Yes, I guess that started from my time working for Sky. So I worked for Sky for a number of years in a number of different roles, but not necessarily in the broadcasting space. But mainly in compliance, to be honest, which is my current profession. But it just got me. It got me thinking. It got me really interested in broadcast rights. And one thing I definitely noticed, especially from an Irish perspective, and I'm sure we'll get on to it, is just how many different platforms rugby is on and how frustrating that experience can be. Like at the time I was working in Sky, like Premier Sports was broadcasting the URC in the UK. And it didn't have rights to broadcast, you know, the Irish provinces and stuff. But yet, you know, Premier Sports was active in Ireland, broadcasting soccer and things. So it was always just it was always quite confusing for a lot of people and for myself as well. So that's what kind of got me into just just knowing about the industry and getting a bit of insights and knowledge, I guess, and a bit of upfront information. And then, yeah, I just got a bit obsessed then. And then I did find myself like a lot of people every weekend trying to figure out and navigate where the hell the games were on and who was broadcasting them. So I just decided to start making things a bit more straightforward for fans and for myself, selfishly, to be honest. Making out a little guide for the weekend. And one thing I noticed as well was that even when like there are sites out there and platforms, but you'll find a lot of inaccuracies and you'll even find like even on like I love the URC, I'm a big fan. But even on their website, like, for example, every weekend, you'll see that every single fixture is down as being broadcast from Premier Sports in Ireland. But that's not the case. That actually is deferred coverage. It's not just live coverage. And also Premier Sports have a separate entity in Asia as well with the show games. So even that, like even on the URC's own website, I think it can be sometimes confusing, especially for new fans. And so I guess that's where the interest came from. And then the more I just kind of got into it, the more I kind of found it more interesting. So I love like today there was an announcement by a TV5Mond who is basically a French broadcaster and they broadcast Top 14 games in Ireland and the UK every season. And people don't really know about it. And then I reached out to their social media team. I remember last season when I found out they were broadcasting a couple of games and I got some more information off them. And then they said all up, we'll be in touch next season. Then lo and behold, they messaged me today and said, hey, we just were about to put out this tweet. We're going to be showing 10 games. Do you want to talk about it or do you want to get something out there? And so I just thought like things like that just interest me. I think it's just good for fans. There's been a huge reaction to that tweet as well because people want to watch rugby and they want to watch, especially Top 14. Now, there is a caveat with French commentary in that. But still, I think it's great that we still have access to it. And some people who actually probably potentially maybe favoured that commentary over some controversial commentators and stuff. I don't know. But yeah, it's things like that that's kind of grown my interest. And then, yeah, it's kind of just grown some legs as well with some pretty prominent accounts that interact with me. And I remember listening to the Jim Hamilton. I know he does a pod called The Big Jim Show. And he like literally referenced a very passing comment to the page and thought that was cool. It kind of gives you that bit of, I don't know, a bit of a bump. And realising what you're doing is actually kind of helping fans and even like former players and massive media people like Jim Hamilton. So in a roundabout way, that's how I kind of got into it. And yeah, just find it really interesting. And it just seems to be a really growing space. And it's just getting more and more complicated. And also as well, just from having worked in Sky, for me, there's this narrative out there that streaming is the future, that Amazon's going to come in or its own, one of these major streamers or Netflix and take over the broadcasting space. And as you guys I'm sure are aware, it hasn't been the case. It's not materialising. Guess what? The guys of this world, the free to air broadcasters, they're here to stay. Well, look, we can chat through that. But that's why I set up the page. And yeah, that's why I'm here, I guess. Excellent. Very interesting. So in terms of broadcasters, then, who do you think does rugby the best? Is there any particular coverage that stands out for you? Like, for example, I think, personally, I think TNT are pretty good. And let's be honest, they do hype up the English Premiership. And they really know how to hype up that project. But there's a couple of pundits on there that's a little bit, you know. What I was going to say was, when Austin Healy's not being a tit, he's actually quite insightful. So I'm just wondering, is there any particular coverage that you enjoy watching? You probably, you guys, I'm sure you guys noticed that TG Cather, I know you probably, you can't get access to it because you're in the UK. I'm aware of that, yeah. Yeah, they're a free to air broadcaster and they show a lot of rugby, like they're showing the AIL finals this coming weekend. And they're a really good broadcaster because they put a lot of effort into their actual show, like their pre-game and their post-game. And they're even like mid-game and everything. They just, they try to innovate. And even this past weekend, they had an interview immediately after the comic game with the referee. And apparently it's a world first. This isn't a thing that occurs. And again, it's just, you know, a decently funded free to air broadcaster in the Irish language, not that popular. But you've got loads of people tuning in week in, week out because of their coverage. And because they just try to be a bit different. And it's all through Irish. Now they do kind of, during the broadcast, they do have in-game interviews with Marcus Horne, former Munster player. He always communicates in English. I think people like that as well. But I think they're just an example of a free to air broadcaster just doing things right. And if you look at the stats from last year as well, like I know URC had incredible viewing figures last season. And Connacht were the fifth most watched team. And I think one of the reasons for that is because a lot, a hell of a lot of Connacht games are on TGK and they do a really good job. And that's why it's obviously because it's a free to air broadcast as well. So a lot of people, they get a lot of casual fans. But I think for me, they're kind of a niche kind of broadcaster. I think a lot of hipster rugby people would like in Ireland, I would say. But they do do a good job. But I think I'd agree with you as well. C&C do a great job. S4C do a similar job in Wales as well. And their coverage of rugby is good. But it's broader than the regions. So they show the Welsh premiership. They show their schools games, the Welsh colleges cup. So you do get to see more rugby through S4C as well. So I think there is that out there, isn't there? And BBC Alba in Scotland as well, they have a lot of good coverage of rugby. On the iPlayer, you can find the coverage of the Melrose Sevens and stuff like that. And I think that's key as well. If you look at it again, going back to the URC viewing figures from last season, I think one of the reasons they're so high as well. In Ireland, URC has a really good balance in terms of every single Connacht, Munster and Leinster game is available free to air. Week in, week out. Not all Ulster games, but the majority of Ulster games as well are covered. So I think those broadcasters put a lot of effort into those games that they do get, which I think is interesting. But I do like C&C as well. I think it's important. A lot of people might get annoyed with that hype and stuff. And if you watch the prem, I'd say, and you watch the coverage of C&C sports, I'd say you would believe that 100% is the best thing since sliced bread. And I love that. I swear they put a lot of effort into their broadcast and into their commentators and they try to be a bit different. I just hate sometimes when you're watching a game and coverage starts five minutes beforehand. You want that hype. I think part of the issue of the prem coverage on TNT is literally if you were a casual viewer, and that was your first thing, you would genuinely think that England win every World Cup, that Northampton or someone win every European Cup and the Six Nations is a waste of time. And England might as well put their fifth team up because it's not just one-eyed, it is no-eyed at all at times. And even within the coverage of that, there's a huge bias towards the bigger clubs. If I was a Newcastle fan watching the prem coverage on TNT, well, it's a bit like being a Dragons fan really, just in terms of the level of coverage you get. So, Enda, you've worked in TV, like I said, non-broadcasting, but in TV in itself. And you watch a lot of rugby on TV, as we do. I won't talk about the individual, but what is it that makes a good pundit? Because there are good pundits out there and there's less good ones as well. I think for me, a good pundit is an honest one. And I don't think a good pundit has to be a former player, particularly a player who is potentially recently retired, because it just turns out then that they might be afraid to say something to upset their friends who are still in those changing rooms. Now, again, it's nothing against, like some players do it really well, and some players who have recently retired don't care what they say. Sometimes a lot of recent pundits just need to be former players, and the reason they're pundits is because they played the game professionally, so therefore they're experts. And I think I find that frustrating at times as well, because I think there are some journalists out there who are absolutely brilliant, or people who didn't play the game who do a really good job. So I think for me, just honesty and maybe not being afraid to say something. I think Austin Healy, we've touched on him, I think he is a good commentator. I think the only thing I don't enjoy about his broadcast, and particularly from a new fan's perspective, is that he can be quite negative about the game, which is the opposite to the whole TNT build-up that we've been talking about. But I hate when it gets to a scrum and he's like, oh, here we go, we're wasting so much time, or he might give out about these kick battles. I think we should take the focus away from the negativity, and maybe focus on why they're doing these things. A big bugbear for me, for example, is scrum time in games. Yeah, we want to speed up the game, all this, but I think when I tune into a game, there's almost one game every weekend where a commentator is complaining about the scrum and how long it's taken, and I just feel like that's an opportunity for broadcasters to use that time to try to analyse it, try to talk about the dark arts, try to explain what's going on. Because we're trying to attract new fans here as well, and I'm sure you guys, I love a scrum. It is frustrating that they take so long, but let's do something about it, because we're taking our time fixing it, so let's talk about it. I think that's the most frustrating thing for me in terms of coverage. I'm a tight five player myself, so clearly I have a vested interest in it. But if you have a commentator, a commentator should be explaining what's going on a little bit, and rugby is so complicated, and I said that somebody plays it and refs it. It's still complicated to me. And if you want casual viewers, don't go, oh, why is it taking so long? Explain why it's taking so long. Explain what is happening. Exactly, yeah. And I think just speaking, and going back to who are the good punners and what makes a good punner, I think Gerry Flannery is an example of somebody who is just really good at that, just explaining what's going on. Like, I was watching a game, I can't remember, it was a couple of weeks ago, it might have involved Ireland, and you could tell that the other person on co-coms was trying to get into maybe the negativity about all the kicking, and he was just shutting it down without being rude and just explaining why a particular team was kicking so much and where they were targeted on the field. Just trying to, like, look, it can be boring at times, but he was making a third effort, I think, because he's a coach and he's an excellent one, and he was just explaining what was going on. And for me, that's key to what makes a good commentator, just try to explain things and maybe point out something you don't notice yourself. Absolutely, and that's the kind of commentary or punditry you want, rather than the Shane Williams school of just sounding excited about everything. And I love Shane Williams as a player, not so much as a pundit, really. Do you think, so cricket has tried packaging itself in a different way, and it's working to a degree. Cricket gets good numbers, particularly 2020 on TV, the 100, these kind of things. Is there a way that rugby can package itself in a way that's more digestible? And I'm not thinking about kind of sevens, but is there a way that you can make rugby to pull new people into it? I think there is, but I'm not really sure exactly how we would get to that. I think, personally, rugby is widely available. There is this constant debate, obviously, about whether or not rugby should be free-to-air or on pay TV or a combination of both. But for me, there is a hell of a lot of rugby out there that is on free-to-air, and it does draw in massive viewership figures. But I'm not sure what more we can do. Like, I think from maybe the world of rugby's perspective and a lot of people online, it's like, let's change the game. Let's speed up scrums. Let's reduce the amount of kicks. Let's speed up rucks. And I'm not sure if that's the best approach. I think maybe what we should hone in on is what rugby is all about and just focus on that and focus on just making the broadcast itself maybe a bit more exciting, talk a bit more about players, talk a bit more about stats, and just take the narrative away from all the negative things that I said. But I'm not really sure. I think Sky's coverage of the Lions tour, the last Lions tour, they tried to think of it something different, and they had Nigel Owens kind of – he was jumping in at times, but then I saw a lot of negative reactions to that as well online. So I'm not sure exactly how we can do it, but I don't think it's changing the sport. I think broadcasters have to think of something. For me, rugby is out there. Like, it is available eachwhere. Sorry. Sorry, I had to go on. Sorry. No, no, go ahead. I was just going to say, in terms of kind of broadcasting, the thing that always strikes me as really effective, I have very little interest in the NFL, but I love watching the red zone that they show on Sky. It's great, yeah. Because you really get a feel for the game, and you don't have to sit through all the boring bits. And it's just really, really punchy and really exciting. And I have no real knowledge about the NFL, but I can watch it and understand what's going on. And I've always thought for rugby, there is a scope to have something like that, and you can show all the exciting bits. And when I was a kid, I was more interested in seeing tries and everything else, but now I'm obsessed with scrums and how you field kicks. But you build that through doing the exciting bits, getting people into it. It's the same with cricket. More people go on to test cricket because they've got drawn into the game by watching people smack the ball about in the shorter form. If you pull people in, you get them into the game full stop. Yeah. And I think that stuff like what you guys are doing, you have a pod just based on the drag. There are so many pods out there now for rugby, and I think that's part of changing the narrative and part of getting interest back and just maybe focusing on one team and focusing on how good they are, focusing on their opposition. And I just think that we just need to maybe just do a bit more. There's no real magazine show for the URC, for example. That's something they're definitely missing out on. We should just hype the hell out of these products without going over the top. But even some people say the NFL coverage goes over the top, but look at their viewing figures. They're through the roof. And as a rugby fan, and I'm sure you guys experience this as well, it can be frustrating to watch that sport because it is so stop-start, but hundreds of millions of people watch it every season. Now, obviously, it's a completely different sport and America's a different culture, all that. But yeah, I think a part of it is doing something different, better magazine shows, better pause, better coverage, better pre-game coverage, better post-game coverage, all of that, I think. Because I think it can be done. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting stuff. So you mentioned pay TV there and free-to-air. So that leads on to my next question for you. So where do you stand on the debate between free-to-air versus pay TV, especially in regards to the Six Nations? So in Wales, now the Senedd, which is the Welsh Parliament, they recently held an inquiry, and they have said that they want the Six Nations to be on free-to-air. They don't want to move into pay TV. This is what we want in Wales. They're saying rugby is important to Wales, the culture, it's important to the game, national sport, and all that stuff. However, the Terby RU have said that if they did remain on free-to-air, it would struggle to survive and to fund the game. So it's a difficult balance to be struck here, isn't it? So what do you think is best? Do you think it would be a bad thing for the Six Nations to go on to pay TV completely? Because a lot of people seem to be against that. My personal opinion is that it should have been on the crown jewels to protect the defence. So why the UK Government never did that? For me, it should be on the list with the likes of Wimbledon and the FA cup final, but it's not. What are your thoughts on it? It's a tricky one, isn't it? Because we need more money, but likewise, you want more eyeballs on the sport. Exactly. It's a really tricky question. In Ireland, interestingly enough, it's also not protected. The deferred coverage is protected, but the live coverage isn't, but we haven't had a pay TV broadcaster. And I think they were quite innovative with the last set of broadcast rights that were sold in that they allowed RT and Virgin Media in Ireland to wear two free-to-air broadcasters to combine their bids and then split their games out accordingly. I think something like that is potentially a solution to this because I'd agree in terms of the Six Nations, the Rugby World Cup, the big men's international and women's international events, I think, have to stay on free-to-air at the moment because of where rugby is at. Now, that might sound counterintuitive because rugby needs money as well. But I know there was an uplift in the last broadcast cycle for the Six Nations in Ireland because they thought of something different where they allowed two broadcasters to combine their bids. I think that's potentially something they could look at. But I think for me, for international rugby events, I think they have to stay on free-to-air just to get the viewers in. And then, yeah, I think for me that's the main way to go. But then you look at the Welsh Rugby Union, who's going through what it's going through. But, like, I look at the Irish model as well, and this is something we can maybe get into, but I often, or maybe it's a conversation for another day, it's just like the IRFU gets about, like, all the clubs in Ireland, or your four main provinces, 80% of their funding, 80% of the IRFU's funding comes from the international game. But most of that is gate receipts. A lot of it's obviously TV money. So they're getting a lot of money that way. And I just wonder, is that potentially an approach the IRFU could take? Sorry, not the IRFU, the Welsh Rugby Union. Yeah. Yeah, I wanted to make sure I corrected myself there. And I just, yeah, to me, I'm just wondering, is that more of an approach? Just because I think it's so important to keep the six nations, for sure, on free-to-air, because I think you would definitely lose interest. And from what I've heard, I think even from your last thought, I think numbers of kids playing rugby is starting to potentially drop in Wales. Is that right? It's been declining for a decade. And the men's grassroots game is shrinking rapidly. That's not just a Wales thing. That's happening in England as well. Yeah. Even in New Zealand, I heard that there are concerns as well. But then again, you always have the Premier League example. Soccer in England is still massive. Yet the Premier League has never, ever, ever not been behind a paywall. But also, that's a total kettle of fish. And there's no proper comparison between rugby and soccer. But it just shows that it is possible still to grow the game, even when it is behind PTV. And I think where rugby is at at the moment, especially in Wales, I think the last thing they should do is prevent people from watching it. Because that's why free-to-air does so well, because it gets casual fast. The challenge, I think, is there's so much more you can do now. One of the reasons, before we came on the line, saying about still playing rugby, and one of the reasons I'm still playing as a 50-year-old man is because young guys aren't coming through. Because there are a million other things to be doing out there, a million other ways of getting information. And rugby as a sport, as a sport people participate in, is competing against so many other things. But it's the same for rugby as a viewing experience as well, because there are so many other things you could be watching through so many different platforms. Exactly. I just think for the international game, I think it's important to keep free-to-air. But then for the club game like URC, Prem, I think they have to be behind the paywall, especially if you want to catch up with the top 14, which their existing deal is worth 96 million sterling a year. It's incredible, the figures. And there are rumours now that their next cycle, which is up in a couple of years, is going to fetch even more. That's where I think Ireland and the UK need to catch up to. But from a club perspective, not from the international game. Yes. I think it's inevitable that the six nations will eventually go on to pay TV. We've seen it now already with the Alternation series. Now TNT have gobbled up the rights for that. I think it will get to a point where it will eventually go to pay TV. For someone like myself who does have TNT, who has Premier Sports, and I have Amazon, I still want to be on free-to-air. Because like you say, it's all about the casual supporters, isn't it? For example, my mum knows nothing about rugby. She's clueless. But she always watches the six nations. She loves the six nations. It's an event for people. That's what you think. If it went to pay TV, six nations exclusively, would that be a disaster? I think so, yes. One of the reasons is, I don't know what the rugby culture is like in Ireland massively, but I don't know what it's like in Wales. If you think about your earlier experiences watching rugby, Jamie, it would have been in rugby clubs, it would have been in pubs, the same as mine was. The problem is, it's like if I want to watch rugby on TNT in a pub in Hastings where I live, there's only one pub that does it. Because they'll tell you there's absolutely no money to be made from paying for TNT. The licenses are huge and everything else. I'm Sky and everyone else, if you own a pub, and that's one of the challenges. If it goes free to air, those kind of experiences of watching it communally, that will really kind of be impacted. But also, like you say, it's a casual fan, isn't it? Is a casual fan going to want to pay £30 a month to watch Wales versus Georgia? No. And we will, and that's the issue. No doubt if it did, three of us would still subscribe. We probably already do subscribe to TNT, but it's those casual fans. How would you entice them to sign up? We are singing to the choir, aren't we? Because we're free blokes up here on rugby podcasts. We clearly have a passion for the sport. The issue is, that's not how you build the game. I used to go and watch the First Division, as it was, in the early 90s, and Sky just captured a generation of football fans by the way they covered the game. And you can love it or hate it, but it's bloody effective. The way they've done it, and they've sustained that for 30 years. So there's something to be said about the pay-per-view, but rugby doesn't have that audience to begin with. It's a minority sport. It must be the same in Ireland as well, because I know you're competing with football, but you're also competing with the Gaelic sport as well in Ireland. Exactly, and there is, not so much maybe anymore, but it is seen as a bit of an elitist sport in Ireland as well, particularly maybe in Leinster, where a lot of those private schools are. That has changed, but I think maybe when I was growing up, that was a bit of a perception, but thankfully that has changed. But obviously there are still those people who, they hate rugby, or they have no time for it. They prefer soccer, Gaelic, hurling, all those other things. But it's still an extremely popular sport here. But I think that's partly down to the amount of it that's available on free-to-wear. And again, like the URC, week in, week out, is you get a good few games on free-to-wear, which I think is important. I think the URC has found a really good balance in Ireland. I'm not sure about how the viewing figures at the moment in the UK, but having the Irish provinces on free-to-wear, plus having an option for pay TV. So in Ireland, to make things a little bit more confusing, so like Premier Sports, obviously, it's just relaunched in the UK. But it never left Ireland. It was a separate entity the whole time. It was still here throughout the whole time that Viaplay was in the UK. And they do broadcast here, but they don't actually go direct to consumer. What they did was they went to Sky and said, hey, can you distribute this for us? So if you want to subscribe to Premier Sports in the Republic of Ireland, you have to get what's called the Sports Extra Package, Sky Sports Extra Package. And it comes with TNT bundle. And I think that's just an example. It's just a smart way, so you know if you want to get rugby, you can do it that way. But you'd also get TNT Plus Premier if you want to watch. It's like you're going to get both the URC and the Heineken Cup that way, the Champions Cup. But then also, if you do just want to follow your local province, you can just watch it free-to-wear. I think that's a really smart balance. And they've got URC TV. Do you think the viewing figures in Ireland have or are impacted by the success? Because internationally, you're doing well. But club-wise as well, can bring in the URC champions from Leinster, Leinster is a powerful force and will win it sooner rather than later, will win in Europe. That's going to have an impact, isn't it? 100%. And you guys touched on it last week's part as well. Like if you look at a club like Benetton now, they're doing well and they're selling out their 5,000-seater stadium every week. It's an obvious one, but I think having it available as well and accessible is really important. No, I completely agree. So in Wales, in terms of URC coverage, so we've got BBC Two Wales and they show the Friday night games. So Scarlet Sharks will be live on BBC Two Wales on the Friday night. And then S4C, the Welsh language broadcaster, they'll show the Saturday games. We also have then Premier Sports. So we have Premier Sports to begin with. Then I went to Fireplane. Now it's back to Premier Sports. However, and I know that you've been writing about this on X as well, haven't you? Because there's been some issues with Premier Sports since they've returned. What kind of issues have you been hearing about there then? What have people been saying to you? Just before I touched on that, actually one really interesting thing as well. I'd say Premier Sports are laughing because the rumoured price that they sold the service to, to Viaplay was around 30 million. And then apparently they bought it back for about six. So I think they're doing very well. Now again, these are unconfirmed, but these are from the news. Yeah. But yeah, it's been a bit tricky I think. What I'm trying to do is just get people to contact me and just, like I actually reached out to Adam Redmond, who's the head of comms for the URC. And he actually responded to three lines. He's trying to get me a contact because what I'm trying to say to him is that, look, I'm not trying to just complain. What I'll just say here, I've got a significant following and these people are having issues. We just want to improve the URC viewing experience. So I'm trying to get that sort of feedback. But a lot of the issues, like there are various issues, loads of people had issues who were previous Viaplay fans. Then trying to log into your new Premier Sports account was really difficult because they migrated customers. So if you were a Viaplay customer, you then became Premier Sports. But people had issues then logging in. A lot of people are having loads of issues with the player and the app, unfortunately. The linear channels are great. They're fine. No issues there, which is, yeah, again, it probably comes down to, satellites are still the best way to get TV and live sport into somebody's home. If you look at a product like, sorry to deviate a bit, but if you look at a product like SkyGlass or SkyStream, now they've just announced that they're doing this update for this device and they're going to reduce the latency by 20 seconds. But that's what they're, so like streaming is still incredibly behind, incredibly far behind satellite. It's still the best way to get live sports in your room. I have SkyGlass and I'll be in group chats and I always know what's happening because someone will say, oh my God, I can't believe this cool thing. And I'll be a minute behind or something. But it just shows you how far streaming is yet to come as well. Satellite is still the best form of getting live sports I think. But so yeah, Premier Sports, there are two channels, thanks for your okay. It's just primarily their player and their app. People are having issues with them crashing, buffering. Apparently there was no coverage of certain games this weekend, this past weekend. But to be fair to them, instead of just like, it is really difficult to get this right, especially having worked for Sky. Like it is really difficult to launch a streaming platform and get it right. And they only announced the takeover at the end of Q4. And we're just at the end of Q1. So these things do take time, unfortunately. But what I'm trying to do is just focus on the positives of it and just give them the feedback. And I'm sure, I'm sure they're trying really hard to get it right. But streaming is really, really difficult. Yeah, that's fair enough. And I've got Virgin Media. So it's pretty straightforward. It was a seamless, you know, transition from Fireplay to Premier. Something you just mentioned there, that's something I've noticed as well. Not every game has been live since they've returned. So our game is on S4C and Premier Sports. But last week, our game was only on S4C. And normally, it's on S4C and Premier Sports. The same with the Scarlets. I checked the TV back today. It's live on BBC2 Wales. It's not on Premier Sports. Do you know any, why that's happened? Do you have any information on that? Yeah. So the main reason, one of the main reasons is that the third channel that Fireplay had was discontinued a number of months ago now. Fireplay Sport, or Fireplay Extra it was called. So Premier are now down to two linear channels. And now I know Fireplay were the same, but Fireplay had slowly started that shift to showing more games online only. And, but for me, I think the main reason is just capacity. They only have two channels. They can only show a certain amount of games. And if you are starting to see more games going online, that's probably telling you something about the viewing figures as well. There's probably a reason they're going to put their, their best content that they see and that they get the best viewership for ahead of the content they're going to put online. And I think that's probably it as well. Like if you look at, and this is the same with Fireplay, like they have up to date, and now Premier Sports, they've the right to the top 14 for up to four games per weekend for the last couple of months. Four of those games have all been just on the Fireplay app. And why aren't they on the linear channels? That's probably telling you that maybe the viewing, I don't know, but maybe those viewing figures weren't there. But yeah, if the game isn't on the linear channels of Premier Sports, it is meant to be on their app. And I know there were one or two games last weekend that weren't, but I think those are just teething issues. So you should, in theory, still be able to watch every single URC game live on Fireplay, or on Premier Sports, I should say. But for customers like yourself, Jamie, the frustrating thing is, I'm pretty sure you're accessed now because you probably subscribe, do you subscribe to Premier Sports via Virgin Media? Do you pay for it via Virgin Media or do you have a separate subscription to Premier? Yeah, it's through Virgin, it is. I can't go through Premier, so I don't have access to the app. This part of the package I got through Virgin. So it's confusing even more, and not to delay too much again. So like they've launched different packages. And like, so if you want to get Premier Sports, the best way to probably, if you're a Sky customer and you sign up via Premier, they give you access to linear channels, but they also give you access to the app. So you can now, unfortunately though, the Premier Sports app is not on Sky Glass, or Sky Stream, or even Sky Q yet. But you can still obviously open your laptop and cast or whatever. So, well, if you subscribe via Virgin Media, you don't get access to the app. And then, so like, but then if you subscribe directly through Premier, you will get access to the app, but then not the channel. So like there are all these different ways. Now they have outlined it pretty well on their website, but again, like imagine a casual fan trying to figure out like, how the hell do I watch this game this weekend? It's on, it's on Premier, but it's actually not on their linear channels. It's on the streaming service. How do I get the streaming service? Or get it through Virgin? Oh wait, no, this only gets me to linear channels. So like when you start to read into it, it'll actually, like all of it is quite complicated at times. It's even more complicated if like myself, you subscribe via Amazon Prime. So I, I subscribe to Viaplay via Amazon Prime, via an add-on. Yeah. And that didn't automatically switch over. So I had to cancel my Viaplay and then add the Premier through that. It's, it's not been an easy situation. Yeah. But I think the main, the main reason is anyway, yeah, they've only got two linear channels. And if they, they have a good, they have a good view, they have a pretty extensive portfolio of content. So they need to try to distribute that evenly across two channels. And so, yeah, in theory, you should have access to those games on the app. But as yourself, Jamie, because you're paying through Virgin, it's probably, your only option is, is S4C or the free-to-air option. Indeed. Yeah. It's all very interesting. This I think is great. I could talk about this. I actually, yeah, I find it incredible. Yeah. I'm like, I really enjoy it. Okay. So let's talk about your pod that, that you do with him. So you do the, the Pirate Rugby podcast it's called. Could you tell us all about that? And something I want to know, why is it called Pirate Rugby podcast? Right. So the main reason it's called the Pirate Rugby pod is because he and I have been messaging back and forth on X, on Twitter, whatever you want to call it. And it was just a joke that came up. And we, we thought about pirate radio. I, he kind of knew that I was interested in broadcast rights. So we're like, well, we start this pirate thing. So that's kind of where it came from. And I don't know if it makes a hell of a lot of sense. We have no association whatsoever with Cornish pirates. And here we are. We've come up with a name. It is what it is. We're not really sure how we got there, but something to do with pirate radio. We're the pirate pod where we talk about things that other podcasters maybe don't talk about. But for me, personally, I had actually, and a shout out to the rap pod. I had heard you when you guys had him on as a guest before. And I think he was talking about stats from all the very, I think it was mainly he was comparing to, because he had, I think he was saying, what we call it on Twitter and exploded when he kind of talked about, he came to the conclusion with one massive thread that URC was, is the best league or whatever. And he looked at it. He saw it from the stats on URC. Basically, I think you had him on for to talk about that in more detail. And I just listened to him. I found it very interesting. Yeah. And then, very articulate. So, yeah, you got in touch with him and I just wanted a platform to talk about broadcast rights. And thankfully, he was good enough to take on the idea with me. But yeah, the idea is just to talk about, we are very URC focused, but we do try to make ourselves a bit neater, a bit different by talking about a lot of various different competitions from around the world as well. And getting, I think this is something you guys do as well, is getting, like we haven't had a former player on yet. We haven't even tried to contact them. We're trying to reach out to maybe the X community, Twitter community, or just rugby fans, or people who are passionate about rugby have a decent following online, but they know their stuff and they want to talk about it and want to give them that platform as well. And I think that's important. And it touches on when we spoke about what makes a good commentator. It's not always necessarily the X player. I personally, when I'm listening to a pod, I don't always really want to listen to maybe a former player, especially not a current player, because they're given a script, especially in Ireland, they can't say anything interesting. But I just think it's interesting to talk about people from the media and then from the, I don't know, the part-time media like ourselves, where we do it all for free and just for the love of the game. Yeah, I think that answers your question. But yeah, I think it's important to get on a pod, start something, talk about something with somebody who is interesting and just try to do things a little bit differently. And yeah, we're doing pretty well. I think we're enjoying it. That's the main thing. It doesn't really feel like a job. Yeah, because it seems to be growing, doesn't it, the pod? That's something I've noticed, right? Getting more subscribers, getting more listeners. And you do cover all the leagues across the world, basically, don't you? You read out the results and, you know, you do cover the URC, so if people want to know what's going on around the world, they can listen to your pod, can't they? Exactly, yeah. We try to get various different voices on our people. We've had a couple of guests on who have never been on a pod, who were really nervous, maybe coming on. Then they came on, they were brilliant, and we got some really good feedback. And that's what we're trying to do. We don't necessarily want to get a massive rugby expert on, but we do, obviously, at times. But you just want to get a casual viewer or somebody like Leslie, who we had on months ago, and she was like, she had only started watching rugby a couple of seasons ago. And it's great just to hear about like a relatively new, like we've been watching rugby since we were probably this high, and she was relatively new to rugby, and it's fascinating hearing about how she got into it. And I think that's what people want to hear about and talk about as well. Yeah, definitely. It's a good pod. I highly recommend it. Right then, shall we talk about Connacht? Yeah, boys. So, Connacht Cup quarterfinals after a tough Champions Cup campaign, and you're currently ninth in the URC table, and you're chasing the top eight. And what have you made of Connacht season so far? Are you happy with it, or what do you feel about it? It's been a bit of a journey. It was a really good start. It was potentially going to be Connacht's, like, potentially the best start ever to a season. Three wins in a trot, and then, you know, had a difficult away loss against, I think it was Edinburgh, one of the early rounds of the URC, and it was by a drop goal by former Munster player, Ben Healy, who's having a fantastic season for Edinburgh. And it's been kind of inconsistent since then. Like, in the opening game of the Champions Cup at home to Bordeaux, got absolutely blown away. But then beat Pat Vans Bristol, you know, like, it's been kind of, the form has been in and out. There have been a lot of changes week on week, selection, a lot of players in, a lot of players out, week on week, I think, can change. Jack Carty has been, like, he's the club captain, and he was dropped, essentially, this season for JJ Hannah, and has come in and done a really good job as well. But there has been a lot of chopping and changing, and a couple of injuries, like the superstar signing, which is Santiago Cordero, hasn't played a minute for, in the URC yet. Now, apparently he is due back in a couple of weeks, which is good. But for me, it's just been an inconsistent season. The form has been up and down, and I'm sure you guys have watched a few Connacht games, and I'm sure you can imagine what it's like, from a Connacht perspective, being a Connacht fan, it can be really frustrating. Especially on defence, I think we're really good on attack. But look, there are a lot of positives to me, though, from this overall season. At ninth, am I happy with it? Kind of, because I think that's where Connacht are, and I think that's where they deserve to be, at this stage of the season, given the performances they've put in, and they've got an incredibly tough, like, up against you guys next week, away to Munster, away to Leinster, and then one final home game against the Stormers. That's a tough one, isn't it? Yeah. I'm actually going to the away Munster game, went last year, wasn't a pleasant experience, so hopefully this time is a bit better. But interesting as well, that last home game against Stormers is going to be the last game at the sports ground, or Dexcom Stadium, as we know it. They've actually started the redevelopment phase, where they're building the performance of Dexcom, whatever they call it. They're doing that first, but they're knocking the clan stand. After that, it's starting this summer, so for next season, at the sports ground, Dexcom, it's going to be, you know, a mini-terrace behind each post, and that other stand where you never see on TV, because that's where the cameras usually are, so it's going to be a really strange atmosphere. But anyway, it's all for a really good cause, you know, they're spending 30 million upgrading the stadium, it's going to be a way better place to go. I'm sure you've heard, like, the sports ground's the worst place to go in terms of the weather, it probably is, especially the wind. But with the new pitch, the new lights, the new stadium, I think it's going in the right direction. And if you look at some of the re-signings lately as well, like, I think honestly it's going, like, a lot of people have been negative about the season. Yeah, there haven't been a full season, but I just think the foundations are there, and the squad is there, and a lot of that is homegrown talent, which I think is really positive. But I think they're going in the right direction, but it's been a frustrating season. Gav, were you going to jump in there, or were you not? No, well, I was just going to say about the ground, I've never seen a game, but I've actually been going on occasion on the West of Ireland, and it always just strikes me it's a really difficult place to play, because it's quite enclosed, and like you say, it can be windy out there. Do you think, do you think the changes are going to take away some of that kind of, because it's quite, it always felt like it was right on the pitch, almost, and it was definitely going to take away some of that kind of kind of kind of I know there's a track around it, but it felt a bit more enclosed than others. Do you think that's going to change with the upgrades to it? I think potentially, but honestly, like, I hope no Connacht fans tune in, but they will, but like, I don't really enjoy going to the sports ground, I just, it's just, it is old, it isn't that well enclosed, it is at the top of the hill, basically, so it's really exposed to all the elements, so if the weather's bad, which it usually is, you usually get wet, you get drenched, and some people love that, and I actually kind of do, to an extent, because that's how you absorb it, and you're watching, kind of, watching the least funded Irish province, and you have a bit of a chip in your shoulder, and I like that, but I want a better experience, I want a nicer stadium, and I think with that, with all the funding and everything that's going to come to that, I think it's going to be a much better experience for fans, like you can actually sit in the game, I think that's going to be pretty exciting for Connacht, because they are building an actual seated, and they're definitely welcome, so I hope it doesn't, I hope it doesn't, and I think changing the pitch, like, I personally am not a massive fan of the Celtic pitches, they've changed it, so I think that has improved the product, probably, on the pitch, because you're not, maybe, dealing with, I don't know, like, it was a heavy ground to play on and everything, so I think that they've maybe addressed, like, maybe that's already changed, they've changed the pitch to an extent, but from, like, a fan's experience, I think it's for the better, it's going to be a better experience. But, having said that, I don't want to be overly negative, but they do put a lot of effort into their pre-game and everything, and it is a good, like, I definitely encourage people to go to a Connacht game, I just find it personally frustrating, but I think, like, people would enjoy it, they do put a lot of effort in, they play music for the games, for the URC games, they turn off the lights, they make, like, they put on a bit of a light show, like, it's cool, it's a bit different, but, I think it gets new fans in, and that's what I want to see, and I think once they have a new, brand spanking new stadium, I think it's going to increase the capacity, only by a couple, I think it's going to be about 10,000 to 12,000, potentially, but, that could be wrong on that, but it's not going to be at and near, like, like an RDS that's around 18,000, 19,000, it's going to be purpose-built for Connacht, which, you know, they're never going to get 20,000 plus at a game, I don't think, in the near future. Is there a Red Bee audience out there? Like I say, I've been to the West of Ireland, a lot, I know there's a big football, like, soccer culture there, and I know, you know, Gaelic sports, particularly hurling out there is a big thing, is there a, is there a rugby culture there? There is a rugby culture, but, GAA is 100 times bigger, certainly, definitely is, I played rugby in Galway growing up, and it was definitely a minority sport, it was growing at the time, and I'd like to see more of that, but, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, it was growing at the time, and I'd like to think it still is growing, and it still is popular, but, like, a lot of it comes down to demographics, we won't get into the Leinster, pretty bad news, and all that, and all the, you know, but like, partly, Leinster's so good is because of demographics, and they have a mass population, like, Galway, the West of Ireland, has a tiny population spread throughout the rest of Ireland, and then you're just trying to get fans out of those people who are already in veteran communities, that play GAA, and all that, and the unbelievable Pro 14, or was it Pro 12 at the time, when that got new fans, and I think some of those fans have thankfully, thankfully stuck around, and kind of do get decent crowds as well, we can make out, based on the stadium, but, a lot of it does come down to demographics, but there is an interest in rugby, but it's definitely not up there with your Gaelic games, but I think it is growing, and it's in the best place possible, I think, in terms of, like, it isn't, as I said, the best rugby ground, I think, in the heart of Galway City, it's easy to get to, if you can get into Galway, that is, so I think that's an experience in itself, just coming to Galway for, I think people apparently come just for the night out after, I don't know, but, yeah, I would definitely recommend going to the sports ground, it's an experience, I just can't personally wait for it, yeah, a new stadium, yeah. Oh, great stuff. Okay, so, this Saturday, it's Dragons versus Connacht at Rodney Parade, it's, I think, off 8 o'clock, sorry, Professor, I take off time, you have to go, I said it's too late for families to see, but it is, yeah, it is 8 o'clock, so Enda, for people who can't attend the game, where can they watch it? So, good news on the free-to-air funds, it is on S4C in the UK, and it's also, it's going to be on, apparently, Premier Sports Linear Channel, so Premier Sports 1 should also be showing this game, so if anyone doesn't listen to this pod, it'll be on RT2, it'll be streamed on NOW, it'll be on URC TV, and it'll be on Premier Sports 2, just to confuse things, so like, it's on Premier Sports 1 in the UK, or Premier Sports 2 in Ireland, so yeah. Excellent. Yeah, that's where people can watch it. Brilliant, thank you very much for that, top man. So, head-to-head between these two teams, they've played each other 34 times, Dragons have won 12, Connacht have won 22, there's an interesting stat for you, so, since Dragons beat Connacht in Galway back in October 2021, do you remember that? Do you remember that game? Jonah Holmes, Gav, remember, you scored? I do indeed, yes. Yeah? Anyway, since Dragons beat Connacht in Galway back in October 2021, Connacht have won their last nine matches against Welsh regions. Not bad, is it? They're likely the Welsh Connacht, I think, at the moment. Right, Gav, it is quite impressive, when was the last time, here's a question for you, Gav, I always do this to him, when was the last time Dragons beat Connacht at Romney Parade? What do you think? I was going to say it was last season, but it wasn't, that was months ago, wasn't it? Yep. I'm going to say during the COVID period. I want you to give me a year. 2020. Ender, do you want to guess? I'd go with 2020 as well. I can't remember, but I'm thinking, there were a lot of different results during COVID, I don't want to hurt anyone. You're both wrong, it was September 2017. So it was during the Bernard Jackman was Dragons coach, and we won 21-8. So the last time we beat Connacht in Newport was September 2017. A little while ago, wasn't it? Elliot D, he's set to make his 150th appearance for the Dragons this weekend. Well done Elliot, that's a really good milestone. So Ender, what are you expecting to see on Saturday night in this game? What are you looking for? I'm looking for a good game. Did I hear that the weather is going to be good or bad? Ooh, I have an eye for a check. I will tell you now. I don't honestly, like from a Connacht perspective, part of me expects to win. But part of me would be not one bit surprised if the Dragons pulled off a win. No respect for the Dragons at all. I just think Connacht have been inconsistent again this season. But I am hoping that, I don't want to read too much into this Ever performance because unfortunately it was Ever again. We all know just where is Ever at. They're improving, but you're expected to beat them. You're expected to beat them with a bonus point. So I don't want to read too much into Connacht's form there. But I think they should get the job done. I think it should be a nice free-flowing performance from Connacht. I hope. Yeah, it's difficult. It's a difficult one for me. I think Santiago Padero is rumoured to be back quite soon. Matt Hanson is also rumoured to be back quite soon. Will they give Bundy? I think Connacht will go full, like yeah, they're going to go at all guns blazing I think. And a lot of players are back fit. So I think Connacht will put in a really good performance. I think they have it in them. But again, just don't want to read too much into their last performance. They're only as good as their last game. So I don't know. What are you guys expecting from this? Do you think it'll be an easy one for Connacht? Do you think Dragons have something in them to sneak it? Or will it be a dogfight? Well, I think we should be targeting, that's no disrespect to Connacht, that's just teams who are finishing kind of 9th, 10th below, we should be targeting home wins against them. We don't win enough games. The problem we've got is that we can't defend. Jan, I know you said that, but there are times, and I watched the game, even though I knew the result against Benetton, and it wasn't systematic. It wasn't particularly well. And what I've seen in Connacht this season is they are good to get in the ball wide. And then if you're telling me that Bundy could be back or could be in the team, or Mark Hampson could be, well, that's going to make it even harder. Because these are players who know how to attack. So, I'm not sure, I'm always, I always said be optimistic, but I can't see us winning it. But I would like us to be at least be competitive. That's my wish. I think this is a winnable game. I spoke about this on RAP. So, we know Connacht are a good side, and they're going to come down here, and I was listening to Pete Wilkins' press conference, and he was talking about our frets, you know, our back row, and our kicking game, and he talked about Bodney Parade being intimidated. So, Connacht know what to expect. They know we're going to give them a game, and I think we have some good battles over the years, especially at Bodney Parade. They've always been closely fought. The last time Connacht came to Bodney Parade, they only beat us by two points, so we were down by a man, and we should have won that game. So, I always remember it was Ashton Hewitt, and much of that tried to leave us the game. So, yeah, we'll just have to wait and see. Hopefully, it will be a good and entertaining game. And, of course, JJ Hanrahan will be making his return to Bodney Parade. Remember him, Gal? Well, JJ did. Yeah, we've talked about him a number of times and, like, I highly rate Jack Arthur. He's a great player and club captain. Yeah, I think it's and I'm glad for JJ as well. He seems to have gone through an awful lot of different clubs and hopefully he's found his feet down in Connacht and he's going to be back in Connacht next week. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing him back in Connacht next week. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. 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Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
