The season so far with Chris Kirwan

The Dragon's Lair podcast discusses the performance of the Dragons rugby team so far this season. They have won only three out of 13 games and have experienced some painful defeats. The hosts and guest speaker highlight that the Dragons have been inconsistent and have struggled under pressure. They also discuss the need for a culture shift within the team and the importance of signing hardworking players who may not be big names, but can consistently perform. The disappointment of being eliminated from the European competition is also discussed. Welcome to the Dragon's Lair. Hello and welcome to the Dragon's Lair podcast, your home for all things Dragons, RFC and rugby in the region. I'm Jamie and joining me as always is my co-host Gavin Thomas. How are you doing Gav? I'm very well Jamie and I'm not one for mounting misery on misery in the list of Dragons podcasts, but my week has been defined by a 32 mile train journey that took nearly three and a half hours yesterday. So I am currently full of rage, but other than that I'm fine. Are we going to be talking about the Dragons? So I'll try and limit that rage if it's possible. Oh dear. Okay, so you can find us on platforms such as Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pocketcasts and the Sports Social Network. And if you like what we do, please rate us and leave us a good review as it all helps to grow the pod. So tonight Gav, what we're going to do on the pod is we're going to look at the season so far for the Dragons. What's going right? Not much. What's going wrong? And what needs to be improved, etc. It's that kind of thing. And to help us do that, we have the sports reporter for the South Wales Argus. And fair play, how he manages to juggle Dragons and Newport County is quite remarkable. He's a very busy man, but he is joining us tonight. It's Chris Kerr. Chris, welcome to the pod. How are we? I'm good, thanks. Thanks for having me. Not a problem. Really appreciate you joining us. I know you're busy, but I know you're working on the Transfer Day blog as we speak. So any Newport County news, please feel free to let us know. It's a very quiet day. When this is published, people might know that it was a dramatic few hours or I just was waiting till 11. So we'll find out. Right. OK, so let's get into it. So let's look at what's happened so far. In the URC and Newport, the Dragons have played a total of 13 games and we've won just three of them. So we had two wins in the league against our Welsh rivals, Ospreys and Scarlets. And we picked up a bonus point win against Oyuna in the Challenge Cup. And there were some pretty painful defeats already this season. Thinking about those defeats out in Munster when we had that defeated squad. Out in South Africa as well, that was pretty tough, including that record defeat to the Sharks. And then we had that absolute shambles at the Arms Park, didn't we, with Dragons losing 55-21 to Cardiff. So Chris, what have we learned about the Dragons so far this season? It's been quite a familiar feel, let's be honest about it. It's a lot of optimism and it's quickly gone. It's the same old, isn't it? They're still nearly men, which is the frustration. There are games there, once again, they should have been winning. And we're in this break now and they're out of Europe and they shouldn't be out of Europe, let's be honest. They had chances there before the Sharks came to be still in it. And that would have given us all that usual thing of having at least a bit of European knockout rugby to look forward to in the closing months of the season. But I would say there are some young players coming through and that is one of the plus points. Maybe not to the extent of how Cardiff have done it with the success they've had, but there are some really exciting young players coming through and I think we'll see more of them in the run-in. You mentioned Europe there, that was very disappointing, Chris, because I don't know about you, but when those pools were drawn, I looked at our pool and I thought, we'll get out of that. You know, I felt confident, foolishly maybe so, I don't know, but I felt confident the Dragons were going to get out of that pool. And we started off with a really good bonus point, a really good story in that, that we went to Pro, we had a very good performance, got pipped right at the death, but you're thinking, well, that's okay because we came away with a bonus point. Should have been seen, but it's our second-half drop-off, which has happened a lot this season. And the Sharks came, I think, as soon as they came to that situation where the Dragons had to win, because we know Dragons are not very good under pressure. Once we knew we had to win, I think it was always going to be very difficult. But Europe, I do agree with you, Chris, it's been very disappointing, isn't it, because I do think that would have given supporters something to cheer about. A bit of respite from the struggles of the URC, isn't it? Yeah, no, it's... I mean, my Europe, it really gives it, you know, a sense of knockout. I mean, after Glasgow last season, I think, you look to that group and you're thinking, yeah, it's kind of home game. And it really... those are what you support as you pay hard money to go and watch the Dragons. You want big occasions, you don't get many of them, and they're blown another chance, really, to get a good knockout tie there, which is... that's the frustration. I mean, I would say that the new makeup of Europe, it is a bit odd how you can still get done by the fixtures, can't you? Because it's almost who you get at home and away. It's a little bit warped. They probably could have done with having the Sharks away and just not getting battered in South Africa. I mean, you know, I mean, if they'd been never at home, they win that, don't they? So, it's... Yeah. Well, you told so. But it's, you know, they didn't have any minnows in the group, but I guess, as Scarlett's shown, having minnows in a group isn't necessarily a good thing. Yeah. That's a very good point. So, obviously, Chris... oh, go on, Gav. I was just thinking the disappointment this year for Dragons, for me, has been not so much that we haven't won many games. There's been a couple of games where we've just really, really kind of folded up and not done anything. And the Zebra game, I can almost put to one side, because, yeah, we should have beat them, but it's the Cardiff games, it's the Sharks, you know, they're the games which are problematic for me, I think, where we've shown very little spirit. Yeah. That's the one that you fans get, because, you know, they do care, but there are times when, you know, when that Cardiff game, it looked like they didn't. It was just, it was way too easy. There was, yeah, just individual mistakes, and so many people to make so many mistakes was remarkable, really. I don't think anyone saw it coming, to be completely honest. Well, no. We both said there was a chance we could win it. It's the hope that kills you, isn't it? That's our motto, that's what this podcast is, it don't feel like a dress. We always say, it's the hope that kills you. You mentioned the Cardiff game there, Chris. They took a lot of criticism, rightly so, from a lot of fans and people in the media, pundits, etc. Jiffy came out on X and said, a lot of the Dragons players are not good enough to be pro. Look at the results over the last few years. Do you think he's got a point? I think there are some players at the Dragons probably that, you know, have been kept on too long at certain times. But yeah, I would say, he was saying that after, you look at that 23 against Cardiff, and I'm not sure many of them, you probably have that argument about being pro. But pretty much all of them are established players in that 23. So, I'm not sure about being a pro. I would say, there probably does need to be an element of a culture shift of pushing some good, honest, local lads to the door after a few years and saying, mate, that's easier said than done. I think he was a bit harsh, saying pro, but no, to get that top end level pro is probably right. There's a balance to be made, isn't there? Because the Dragons traditionally have been strong when they've been able to get a tune out of people that other people think might be a journeyman. I know we're harking back a long time to the Paul Turner days when he was there. But that's what they did, wasn't it? You find someone like a Joe Behrman and you turn them into a really good pro. And that's what you want to see, that progression as well, with people who might not be valued by others, but really can come in and can produce. I agree. Yeah. Because I think that when we've signed big name players, Chris, it hasn't worked out for us, has it? You know, I think of like, Bob Evans, for example. I was really excited when we signed Bob Evans. I thought, brilliant, great signing. He's going to want to get his Wales place back. We've signed a lot of big name players who just haven't delivered for us for some reason. I think there is something to be said for those hard working players who know household names, you know, the likes of George Knott, for example, and Sean Lonsdale. I think they've been pretty good for us. What do you think? Do you think that's the route we need to go down now and sign these, you know, what Chris is referring to? Maybe not journeymen, but sort of lesser known players, the players you know are going to perform sort of week in, week out, rather than big names? I think, yes, but at the minute, I'm not quite sure what it is that I'm looking for, you know, as a playing group as a whole. Yeah, it's difficult to work out what the playing style is. Is it defensive rugby? We do play a lot of kicking game, but then we are trying to throw it about and we need to get players that fit or at the minute, it almost feels like he's getting whatever's about and it fits into what we're trying to do. Like Dan Lyddiot's a great example of it. I like Dan Lyddiot as a player, you know, and he started with us and it's great that he's ending with us. But does Dan Lyddiot add anything to the playing group that we have? Is he bringing an offer in anything else? No, I'd really like to see, you know, the players I want are like this. I want big mobile back row. I want this, I want that, and these are the players I'm going to get and just go looking everywhere for them, you know, finding them in the English Championship, finding them in the English First Division, dragging them up to the career cap. I think that's what the plan is, is to go for those players. That's what they were trying to do with Dion Slabber, who would have added to the second row. He was a player who's under the radar of many and I guess it's being that, you've got to accept where you are in the food chain, it's almost being that stepping stone, which is what, you know, that'd be a good route for someone, isn't it? So you come play for us and that moves to France, that sort of thing. So it's getting those players a potential that equally you can't, when you've got tight budget, you can't just have punt on people. That is where I know they're doing their research on people and when you mention English Championship, that's where I guess the founding board of Paul Turner is very useful. He knows that division very well, he knows players of potential, he knows the Welsh Exile group of people who have that as well, where they can dangle that carrot. And then I think, I see what maybe it's finding out, because the whole point is that you do have these ex-factor players, Wainwright, Basham, you need to free them up and you need someone like that. And I also think, he's played four games, I've put in my head, but I do know for a fact he's massive around the place. If you've got George Young, Ryan Woodman, they are, you don't just sign someone to be a teacher, but it is valuable when they've not got the biggest coaching staff in the world as well. So similar with Steph Hughes with these young centres coming through. I mean, he is, by all accounts, a great bloke to teach their next generation. So it's finding that balance, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. So Chris, when you watch the Dragons this season, what stands out to you as being the main weaknesses in this team and the issues they need fixing? Because me and Gavin always talk about the lack of leadership. The compounding errors for me drives me nuts. The unforced errors. It really drives me nuts to see players, you know, where they can't catch a ball or where they make an unforced error. What are the issues that stand out to you, Chris? What frustrates you when you cover the Dragons? It's when you see momentum going. I don't think they're very good at changing that momentum. It is a very hard thing to do in rugby, but when things start going wrong, I think they struggle to wrestle that control. You see things creaking and you can just feel it going and they don't manage to wrestle it back. Whether that's down to game management, I don't know, or somebody who can come up with a big moment, but it's those moments. The lack of a real killer instinct. It sounds harsh, I'm going to dig out one player here, but that Jared Rosser try, go 10-0 up against the Sharks. I know, yeah. It's moments like that where you, and that sounds harsh because I'm picking off one bloke, but well, it's my job to do it, but that was a big moment. You go 10-0 up and that's just changing the complexion of the game. Yeah. There have been times in Zebra, I don't know, they did build a nice score, but you get that big, if they go from, say, nine to 16, you can crack a team. Whereas, I don't know, they miss those sorts of opportunities. I think there's been a couple of sliding doors moments to quote a film that I just realised is about 25 years old, but there have been a few moments in a few games where if they'd gone slightly differently, it would have been different. Jared Rosser against Cardiff earlier in the season when he's under pressure, but all he had to do was kind of pick her up and he's over. Jared Rosser against Sharks there again, and just some decision making in the game against Zebra. Also against Edinburgh as well where if we'd kicked more effectively, that game was different. Everyone could say that. I was going to say it can't work the other way. I'm sure the Scarletts are saying it can't cost them. Oh yeah, absolutely. I don't really care what the Scarletts are saying, but they can have their own sliding doors moments. The season has been like that, but the problem is if you're a better team, the sliding doors moments go your way. Yeah, yeah. Just to pick up on what Chris is saying though, when we are under the cosh, you do get a sense that the Dragons are going to be thrilled. We've seen this, Gav, we've talked about it so many times on this pod and we've seen it so many times throughout the years. I'm going to say this though, I don't know what Chris thinks about this, because he covers both County and Dragons. I want the Dragons to be more like Newport County, okay? So I got a season ticket for both teams, as you know. What I love about watching the County, when they're under the cosh, they fight. There's real grit in that team. They fight to the end, and I think that's the motto, isn't it, Chris? I remember you writing in the piece, it's like the unofficial motto of Newport County, we fight to the end. Yeah, I was so worried about that, yeah. Yeah, but why can't that be the Dragons? I just wish they followed their example. I was at Boxing Day at Gormley Parade. County went 2-0 down to Fors Green Rovers. We came back and we won 4-2. Really, really good performance, really under the cosh, came back with a performance. Meanwhile, I'm looking at my phone and I'm seeing Dragons throwing the white towel against TARDIS. You know, it's that kind of thing. When we're under pressure, we're not very good at handling it, are we? I'm not saying the players don't try. I know that they train really hard and I'm sure they are giving their all. They are professional players, but I just want to see a bit more fight and grit, Chris. Do you think that's fair to say that? At times, yeah. Sometimes it is harder comparing football and rugby, but it's easier said than done sometimes when you're playing them. I was thinking, not necessarily the Sharks, but when the Storm, I think it was the Bulls, wasn't it, last season who came with just ginormous performance. When momentum is gone, it's very hard. There are times, and I tend to agree with you, where it's sticking on in there and just managing those moments and being able to just dig in and then change the momentum. You are right as well. You mentioned earlier the compounding errors and putting you back in penalties. They're the killers, aren't they? We see them so often. We do. I don't want to give any credit to Cardiff if I can help it, but they have been competitive in almost every game. They are showing a lot of fight and the youngsters are stepping up. I just want to see us have a bit more fight, a bit more grit. When we are under the cosh, don't lose your heads because we see it time and time again. You can feel it. I wonder why that is. Is that a culture thing, do you think, Chris? This isn't just a recent thing. We've seen this at the Dragons Cup for a number of years. I'm sure you have as well. What do you think it comes down to? There is an element of that, isn't there? Diamond mentions breaking the cycle of things. How you do that at the Dragons is an interesting one. There were times, let's not make out the Dean Ryan era was all bad. There were times where they were really good and tenacious when you had Moriarty in there, especially when Will Rowlands was there. I think the Dragons form over the past couple of years highlight how good Will Rowlands is because when he was in that side, they were a completely different side. There are times where they have shown that determination and mixed it with some big old sides. But we haven't seen enough, Chris. That's the problem, I think. We just haven't seen enough. Well, it's both you and I, Jamie, who said it does lack leadership. It lacks sometimes a cool head to just say, right, this is what we're going to do and slow it all down. When people try and slow it down, you get people shouting from the stands, run it. We've had this debate on the pod. It's tipping it down and people want a fullback to be running it. I think that's to do with rugby crowds in Wales in general, who think it's 1974 and think you're running through defensive lines that aren't structured. Whereas now it's a pro game, defensive lines are utterly structured and the best teams kick a lot. Also, just to add, I would urge anyone to listen to our James Benjamin pod and Sam Larner, who both explained very well why players kicked the ball. If you haven't listened to those pods, go back, because Jumbo came on the pod and he explained it well, Gab didn't he? From a player's point of view, and Sam Larner, who's a really good analyst, he explained as well. Let's move on to recruitment then, or retaining players. We know that Rheald Dyer and Anne Wainwright were signing new deals with the Dragons, which is great news, I'm sure we all agree. Those two were the priority in terms of keeping players. The attention now is going to turn to the likes of Leon Brown and Ting Basham. I want to get your feeling on this one, Chris. Do you think Dragons will be able to keep Leon and Ting, or more to the point, do you think they'll want to keep both Leon and Ting? Because this is an interesting one now, isn't it? I don't know about you, but me and Gab get the feeling that one of these players, maybe two, will leave the club. What do you think about that? It comes down to valuations, doesn't it? That's where Welsh rugby is in that position now, where the club has to properly, harshly work out how much they value a player. When that comes down to Leon, who is a sensational player on his day, but he just hasn't played enough. That's where the value for money comes in. What can they offer him at the same time? With Leon, because of his track record, will he be getting the offers from over the border that he might have done before his last contract? It's interesting, you never know what's out there. He's starting for Wales against Scotland, that can go one of two ways. He might think, I'm Wales' tight end now, or he might be thinking, I need to stay in Wales because I'm in the fold. I'll accept it from the Dragons. I don't know, there's so many moving parts with all these things. There's agents doing their job by playing people against each other, but that's where the Dragons, or any club for that matter, have to get their valuation spot on and say, this is what he's worth for us. We've got to just stick with this and not go chasing it. Essentially, you push the boat out by 50 grand more, that's going to mean you've got to cut someone else. It's all squad building. It's such a tricky thing to do, which is why the Dragons, when losing their head of recruitment, it suddenly added to the job to die and get the help of Paul Turner, obviously. There's some tough decisions to be made, but at the same time, there are probably some savings to be made as well. I think for Leon, the Six Nations will be key, really, because if anyone is interested in signing him, it will be on the back of this. I think with Leon as well, everyone knows how good he is when he's fit, so it's almost, in a sense, it's almost a bit of an irrelevance, isn't it? There'll be some clubs out there, mind, who don't give a monkey's. They think, we've got a proper test beast that's worth bashing out for. But others, no. English money, English clubs still need to be careful what they're spending. So, they won't be offering ridiculous money. No, they won't. I'm all about Kane now, Chris, because I don't know about you, I feel Kane's gone off the boil, especially since coming back to the World Cup. We all know he is very talented, but he is prone to doing daft things. You know, that elbow to the head of Ross Boone, wasn't it, when Leinster came to Rodney Parade. What are your thoughts on Kane? Do you think there's a chance of us keeping him? There's a lot of rumours as well about him going to the Scarlets. Oh, no, it's all out there and the Scarlets no doubt won him, but that once again comes down to evaluations and also whether a player fancies a fresh challenge, who knows. But with Kane, I think he's a funny character in a way, because he can be an incredible player, but I just remember Dean Ryan always had to manage him very carefully, go out of his way to make sure that Kane knew he's got work to do. He could do all the flashy things in the world, but you've got to do the nuts and bolts even as a flanker. He's just got to look at Jack Morgan, what Jack Morgan does. He comes up with some magnificent moments, but he does the basics brilliantly. Sometimes with Kane, you wonder, has he always got to have someone doing his graft? I remember when he came through with Wales in the 20s, there was often Lennon Gregan there, who was a man for the toil. And when you've got Aaron Wainwright at number eight, I don't know, it's all about balance, isn't it? But it's interesting. I'd love to keep him. He's a local lad, of course, and there's so much growth in Kane, it's ridiculous. What do you think, Gav, about Kane? Would you like to see us keep him? Yeah, the thing is, he's a great athlete. At his best, he's a great player. And as Chris has said, he does fit into our back row, because I think some of his less strong qualities are covered by the fact that Wainwright does so much. So it would be great to keep him, because who would replace him would be my question. Of those four, well, two we've retained, if we had to lose any of them, I think I'd be most comfortable with losing Leon. Yeah, I agree with him. I think if you spoke to most supporters, most would say that they'd rather lose Leon. He gets an awful lot of stick on social media, Leon, even in the Dragons forums. I get it, the frustration of not having played as much. He gets injured, we don't see him for ages, then he comes back into the Dragons team, and then he gets called up for Wales, and then we don't see him again. So I get the frustration, but it's going to be quite interesting to see what happens there. I think he's getting called up at the minute, literally, because who else do you call up? There are no tight heads out there, or no front row, apparently. But judging by the squad that's been selected for Saturday's game against Scotland, I don't think him being a test player is necessarily a mark of quality, either, for Leon at the minute. Well, we'll see how he gets on in the six stages. We'll talk about Wales' team in a minute. But I just want to get to what Dai Flanagan said this week, Chris. So he was talking about youngsters in the Dragons. He said, we've got to expose a few more youngsters, got to bring in some depth into the squad, and with another round of cuts to come, I'm sure these boys will come through. So what youngsters do you think Dai is going to expose, then, Chris? So we know about Harry Ackman, who's been really, really good, very impressive. Ewan Ross has impressively had his opportunities on the wing. But are there any other youngsters you think that may get him opportunities in the weeks to come? Well, it's about being careful with it as well, isn't it? You're looking at, they've got six boys starting for Wales' under-20s against Scotland, plus Everdale, Owen Conkers in there as well. Whether it's bit soon for them, who knows? Because they tend to just be careful in their cycle. So they'll have Six Nations, then they'll have a World Rugby Under-20 Championship this summer for those boys. But amongst those, the full-back Hugh Anderson is interesting. Rhys Weldon is interesting as well on the wing, a big lad. So it's easier for back threeers to be given a taste of it. But I certainly think Joe Westwood's one who will get a real go as well. I think he physically, he looks good. So him and Harry. He's big, isn't he? He's fought possibly a few times at the business stand. He's a big boy, really big boy. So him and Harry Ackerman, I think, will be interesting. Harry, as I said, could he be in the under-20s? Will he be more careful within post-Six Nations? I don't know. But one other who's in there, there's some of those who haven't really, they're not new as such, but do they find a way of giving Brodie Coughlin more action? I like him, yeah. Yeah, he's a feisty hooker. So I think getting him in there is interesting. But then post-Six Nations, I guess they've got four hookers then. So you've got to work out how you get him involved. Marnie Langton-Crier, doing well for Newport. They like the look of him. So he played in Munster. He's won in a position of weakness, I guess, second row. I'd like to see, with an ITAC season, they need to work out George Young's, where he sits and things. Because traditionally, the Dragons have always had a lot of back rowers, but I'm not sure that's the case. They've not gotten that many numbers anymore with that, because the next brigade, it's not so clear there. So he's an interesting one. Then there's the props. Luke Yandle's done very well this season. Yes, he can scrum Chris Carney. That's what I like about Luke Yandle. I know he's raw, but he looks like he can scrum. It'll be interesting, won't it? With Fairbrother there, do you then take the chance? Is Yandle as you got about Chris Coleman? That'd be interesting. For me, yes. We've said a number of times, haven't we, that I'd always start Yandle over Coleman, I think. And then on the other side, you've got Dylan Calella-Griffith, so he's got to really get a chance at some stage. But you've got to pick your games carefully, haven't you? Yes. Like you said, you've got to get the balance right as well. That's really important, because the Dragons did in a bit of Chapman, as you know, Chris, chucked a load of kids in, get battered, and you're not learning anything. And it harms their development, when you do that, I think, as well. I think Chris hit the nail on the head where he said you've got to pick your games carefully. We haven't been able to pick our games carefully this season, so we've had to put kids into situations that you wouldn't have wanted them to, like the Lions away, like Sharks away. Yes, absolutely. Okay, so let's talk about the Wales team now. So that's been announced today. So there are four Dragons in the team to face Scotland. We've got Leon Brown, Wainwright, Real Dyer, Elliot Dean is on the bench. So as Chris pointed out on X earlier today, Leon Brown will make his first Wales start in 2021, which is also against Scotland, funnily enough. Only three of his previous 23 caps have been as a starter. This is a massive game for Leon, though, Chris, isn't it, this one? Real big opportunity for him now. This is a big chance to make a statement. I think it was actually Argentina, I think, his last start. He's got to grasp this chance. I think his tournament as a whole, he's got to really must cut the gains and put them on. I wouldn't be surprised if him and Azzurrati sort of swap it around, maybe. I don't know. They'll try and get the new bath lad in at some stage, no doubt. But no, he's got to show up in the tight and then do what he does around the park. I don't know, is it anecdotal that there aren't as many scrums in Test Rugby, isn't it? It can seem that way. But yeah, he needs to do what he did against the Ox, so he's good against them. Yes, he was. Yeah, he scrubbed really well against Ox and the Sharks game. For a bit, I thought. Not as long as he's here. I don't know. You know my views, Jamie. I'm not worried how well a tight dead can get around the park. I want to see how much he puts his loose head under pressure. To be fair, I mean, look, we all saw that Scarlett's game when he came off the bench. He gave away four penalties against the Scarletts and that almost proved costly. But in fairness, you know, and people were making this point today about, oh, you know, scrum's going to go to shit, you know, Leon Scarlett. They said he did pretty well against the Sharks. I thought he scrummaged okay. I don't think Leon is a terrible scrummager. We know scrummaging is not the strongest part of his game. He's a dynamic ball carrier. But it's a big opportunity for this, but it is going to be a huge challenge. So, Chris, when you look at this Wales team that's being announced today up against Scotland, I don't know if you've seen the Scotland team. How do you feel this is going to go for Wales? Because it's fair to say a lot of people are not confident about Wales' chances in the Six Nations. You know, some people say they're not so good. Wood and Spoonie. Although, personally, I don't feel that we will finish last. How do you feel this Six Nations is going to go for Wales? No, I'm only too pessimistic. The first game is always important, isn't it? That's a cliché. Clank, clank, clank. But it's sort of, I don't know. With this side, it's an exciting side. I think it's about as good as Wales can go with. Obviously, ideally, you'd have Will Rowland in there. But obviously, personal circumstances for him mean he can't play. But yeah, I don't think it's a bad side at all. It's exciting, isn't it? It's not a new cycle. Just have a crack. In Cardiff, I don't know. I think they've got a fair chance. There are tough ones. It's big ifs. But if they do lose, suddenly you're going, Christ, it's Twickenham next, Ireland. It's only one of those because England aren't great, but they'll always have a good pack, won't they? So that factor is interesting. So I don't know. It's just good to see him. Hopefully, County Swindon's at 12.45, so we'll get back to it. Yes, I will be at that game. My plan is to go to the County Swindon game and then go straight to the pub to watch the rugby. How is it going to work for you then, Chris? Because I presume you're covering that game. But will you be covering Wales Scotland for the Argos as well? I'll be covering County and either getting back and watching it and doing bits and bobs. But no, I won't be covering it and covering it. We stick with the local stuff. So now that I'm sports desk, it's County and Dragons and any Wales stuff has to, sadly, not quite get my attention as much anymore. But there we are. Fair enough. So what do you think about this team then, Gav? You've seen it today. How do you feel about a chance against Scotland? I mean, when you look at the two teams, I'll be honest, Scotland should win comfortably if you're looking at the two lineups. But let's not forget, Scotland have been bottling at Dinkardis since 2002. They always get talked up every year as dark horses. So history is against them. But when you do look at the two sides, particularly the front row, it does look an area of concern. Costs lower, I tell you. I think it's very talented. But we haven't got the security and the comfort of knowing that Dan Biggar is a laughing experience to the team. How do you feel about that? Well, so I think this is probably the best Scotland team since 1990. And I'm old enough to remember that team. And I was talking to Sam Larner today about the squad select. And I was talking to the Scotland team and he made a couple of decent points. He said he doesn't think their pack does enough work around the field, particularly defensively sometimes. And he said that as much as Finn is a great player, Finn does better in clubs where they basically make him do what the club needs rather than for Scotland where he does whatever he wants. And then I was thinking about the Welsh team. There's a lot of structure in that Welsh side. The balance is good in the back row. I think the second row is good as well. It's athletic and massive. Yes, I'm not sure about Costolo, but you've got Gareth Davies who is experienced. Losing George North in the centre wasn't ideal. Rowan Mawrskin is a good player, a good strong player and does a defensive job as well, which is what I've heard he really has to focus on. And then earlier in the season, we both said we can win it. So it's good to see him. And the backbench is, well, that's where we're going, isn't it? It's Ioan Lloyd, Mason Grady. They're going to be Welsh internationals well into the next decade, I imagine. Yes, you can win it. He's an exciting young player, don't get me wrong. I am pleased to see him there, but let's face it, he's no Kai Evans, is he? No, I don't. Give me Kai Evans every day. I sent a text to a friend of mine that questioned, in a not entirely safe workword, where Kai Evans was. Yes, I did think he'd be in the 23, but he's not there. So one thing I want to see now is Rio Diaz have his hands on the ball. Because I don't know if you noticed this, Chris, I watched the SEBA game and then I watched the Sharks game. Rio Diaz barely had the ball. He barely had the ball, did he? And if he doesn't have the ball, then he can't score tries. So with Mason Grady weaving down the stacks, I do think people, if Rio has a so-so game, I could see a lot of people saying Mason Grady needs to go up the wing. So this is a big opportunity as well, isn't it, Chris, for Rio Diaz, especially with Louis B. Samet now out to the picture to cement that wing spot for Wales. Well, of course, yeah. I do think he's really made strides with the unglamorous side of the wing player, I guess. But as you say, he can be such a threat in the loose. One of the best ones was Judgment Day, wasn't it, when he was elected out there. And that's what you want to see, isn't it? Showing that footwork to really go at it. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, it'll be lovely to be on this podcast. So I want to get a couple of predictions from you, Chris. I want to know who you think will win out of Wales-Scotland this weekend. I want to know who you think the six-nation champions will be and who's going to get a win in Spoon. There we are. You're going to laugh at me now. I don't know. Could Wales do it? I won't be amazed. Probably just Scotland, I would say. Probably them, not on the Scottish side. So there we are. France to win it. I think they'll overcome a few changes there. I mean, France-Ireland decides it, doesn't it? Wouldn't Spoon or be Italy. Wales will have enough to stay above them. Although, I don't know. England will be interested in how they go out there in Rome. But no, I think it's not a particularly brave call to do the same. Italy for Wooden Spoon, but there we are. That French team looks ferocious. The two cousins, wherever he is, those selected in the second row is just frightening. I am not a light man. He is half my weight again. And six foot ten. Yeah, they've got some monsters in that French pack. And don't get me wrong, they've lost a lot of big names. We know that Dupont is gnarly because of the Olympics, and then the back is currently injured. But you know, they've got Lukaku and they've got Jalibé, which, I mean, that's not a bad halfback period, is it? And they're tearing it up in the top 14 with Bordeaux. So yeah, very strong, very physical French team. I've tipped them to win the Six Nations as well, but not a grand slam. I think they'll win the Six Nations, but I don't think anyone is going to get a grand slam. And I predicted it, the wooden spoon. Where are they dropping a game? If they beat Ireland, where are they dropping a game? Well, Harley said on our pod, he reckoned Scotland could beat them at Murrayfield. I kind of laughed at that. I was like, I could see him slipping up to like, you know, I can't see him slip. I don't think they will lose to Ireland, but it wouldn't surprise me if Ireland turned up and beat them. Potentially England. I don't see Wales. I mean, we're not going to beat them. Italy won't beat them, of course, but I think potentially it could be Ireland or England, I would say. Where are they going to slip up? Or do you think they'll win the grand slam? I think, well, I think if they beat Ireland, I think it'd be a brave man. Murrayfield it isn't. Who knows? Who knows? They've got it in them to implode, haven't they, I guess. I'm with you though, I think, Chris. I think if they beat Ireland, that's it. I can't see them losing to Murrayfield. With all due respect to that Scotland team. It's a tricky place to go, Murrayfield, in fairness. But yeah, I can't see it. I don't think there's any fear for this French team, no. No, no, I don't think so. It's going to be a very intriguing tournament. There's so many big name players missing. It's going to be strange not seeing the likes of Sexton, Farrell, Courtly Laws, Dan Biggar. Yeah, it's going to be very intriguing. I'm looking forward to it. So, Chris, before you go, I just got one last question for you and then you get back to your chatter at the light, Rob, then. So the Dragons have got nine games left now to try and move themselves a little bit higher up the table. They've got a tough run of games and it all starts in Glasgow in a couple of weeks. To be honest, do you see Dragons making any improvements in the second half of the season or should we expect more pain? Or let me put it another way. Do you think we can avoid finishing bottom of the league? Because at some point, you know, the Sharks are going to pull away. There's far too much quality there. Or could you see us being worse for us each and again? How do you see the second half of the season panning out? I do think there's some reason for optimism. We'll see. Nine games, look at them now. I think they can be looking to win. I don't know. They've been good in Newport. Glasgow away and Ulster away is very tough. It all depends who comes, I guess. And then, yeah, quick turnaround to Zebra. They've got to win that Zebra one. That's one. And then away at home is tough. Connacht at home, you'd like to think once again at home, do something. Storm, you never know. I think they can get a few wins. I think they can avoid finishing bottom. And I think it's in them to finish above the Scarlet. It would be nice to set up the event if it's almost a shootout against the Scarlet at judgment day to avoid being bottom. I think that'd be good. And if the Dragons can give themselves a shot at that, they'll be in it. And then you never know. So, yeah, I think there are good things to come from, I think, some of the young lads, some of the Blountons. So, yeah. Well, that's an optimistic note to end on. I appreciate that. I'm not feeling myself. So, thank you very much. I'd love to have you on the pod again soon, if you will. And yeah, thank you very much for joining us. Cheers. And I didn't swear as much as David Buttress. So, there we are. Did you listen to all you did listen to our interview? He did. He could find a new lock with the amount he had to put in the swear jar. He was good, wasn't he Gavin? We recorded that really late at night as well. We recorded it quite late at night. So, you know, he clearly fought after the watershed. There was a great interview. Brilliant. Anyway, thank you, Chris. Brilliant. Thank you, Chris. All the best, fellas. Cheers. Bye now. Thank you. Here we go. So, that was Chris Kirwan from the South Wales Argus. It's worth subscribing to the Argus for Chris's articles, not just on the track, it's for county. Very, very good sports, right? They're one of the best in Wales, I think. I rate them quite highly. Okay. So, let's move on to the Gwent Rugby Roundup. Gareth, what have you got for us? Well, we start in the premiership, as you pointed out on Saturday, I was a very happy man. Ebbw Vale beat the Neff 73-8. Oh, poor Neff. They are having a wretched season, Neff and they. I mean, it's a great result for obviously, you know, Ebbw Vale, but I do feel a bit for Neff. Now, because I'm older than you, and I keep pointing this out, I got to watch the great Neff side of the 80s. Yeah. And to watch that Neff side now, it's unbelievable. You know, that Neff side of the 80s was phenomenal and evil. And I don't know if you've ever been down to the Knoll on a midweek. I haven't. It is a phenomenal atmosphere. I remember, it was a Neff Swansea game, oh, I don't know, about 87, 88, when with my dad on a Tuesday night, and there's that Neff, Neff, Neff chant, and it just rolls across the terrace. It was a terrifying place to go in the 80s. Sadly, no, for Neff, not a terrifying place to go. Newport won the 36-5 against Carmarthen Quinns and Pontypool lost 29-26 away to Pontypridd. So, Flandervley is still top, they won against RGC, Newport in second, Ebbw Vale in second, Newport in third, with Newport in games in hand. So, Gwent side will come top three. Don't know if they'll overhaul Flandervley. In the Championship, Newbridge lost away to Glamorgan Wanderers, 29-17. Penalta won 73-18 at home to Trioche, excellent win for those boys. Crosskeys won 55-19 away to St Peter's in Division 1 East. Aberdweeny won 17-10 against Pontypool United, holding a bit of a rough set result for Aberdweeny, so they'll be pleased with that. Blaenavon beat Bedlinog, 20 points to 12. Tallowine, excellent win for them, away to Dowless, up on the top there, losing or winning 20-3 at Dowless. NSD, they've been doing well in the league but they lost 34-26 away to Nelson. Risky had lost quite heavily at home, 27-40 against Monmouth, and the unbeaten Bryn Mawr side remains unbeaten with 17-13 win against St Genneth. In Division 2 East, Croeso Ciliog beat Caldecott 34-19. Oakdale and Pilharries, cracking game that up in Oakdale, 27-0, and Ask beat Caerleon 25-0. Division 3 East, Abercawn lost 24-16 at home to Chepstow. Llanellas lost 12-26 against RTB Ebbw Vale, and Machan won at home 46-12 against Llewydda Lee. Going on to Division 4 East, Bedweldi lost 14-26 at home to Gwynhazard. Crickhowell beat St Julian's High School Old Boys 45-12. Haverdennis lost 21-38 at home to Crumlin, and a cracking game down there at the breeding ground for many, a dragon player, Whitehead beat Blackwood Stars 36-33. In Division 5 East, Holybush beat Westmoreland 37-7, and unbeaten Pontyn Ffraith remain unbeaten with a 24-8 win against Aberstwyth. And then going into the lower reaches, Division 6 East, Durling 5-32. To the Eagle Iron side, one of my dad's old team, beat Ultalarians 19-14, and Trenant won heavily against Combe County United. But we also have an update from the Dragons All-Stars, who, if you remember, were raising attention to their game. So we've got a little bit of a match report from them. It was a fantastic win for the Dragons All-Stars on the weekend, 26-5 over Long Island. They have a three-week break from fixtures before taking on Port Talbot Panthers at Whisker RFC on the 18th of February. Then another two weeks rest from fixtures before they trip to Belfast to face Malone Tornadoes on the 2nd of March ahead of the Ulster Dragons fixtures that evening. There are some weeks off fixtures. They will be training at Whisker RFC every Wednesday from 5.50pm. I didn't get to play last weekend. Our opposition cancelled at the last moment. Our opposition this week have done it as well. Nobody won. Nobody wants to come to the fortress that is Arc Alexandra Academy, upper playing field. Oh gosh. Okay. Is that it, Gav, for your update? That is indeed, yes. Excellent. Before we go, I asked our wonderful listeners for their thoughts on the Dragon season, just in general. Do they think we're making improvements? Will they be happy with them or not happy with them? So I'll just read out a few of them before we end. So Clive Palmer, someone I know quite well, sits in the row in front of me. Some of the games are winnable, say, and now we need to learn from them. I always look forward to the positives. Yeah, I mean, if we win more games, then you can find more positives, can't you? It's easier to be positive if you're winning more games. When you're losing, it is harder, personally, for me anyway, but I get Clive's point. Steve Davis says, great news that Dyer and Wainwright have been retained, but we desperately need to see some really good signers. He says, I honestly don't think we've improved from last year, and we've missed some really good opportunities to win games. He also adds, it would be great if we could get Dye Flanagan on the pod. If Dye Flanagan is listening to this, or anyone who knows Dye is listening to this, we would love to have Dye Flanagan on the pod. I did copy him in on X as well, just to see if he would respond. He hasn't responded yet, but yeah, we've had David Buttress, we've had James Benjamin. I would love to have Dye Flanagan on the pod. That would be quite good, wouldn't it? That would be a highlight for me, I think. Absolutely, I'd love to pick his brain. So I've got a few questions. I need to answer it, to be honest, but if he's listening, or anyone who knows him, yeah, we'd love to have him on the pod. Nathan Dark said, well, the season is going as expected, he says. Just thankful Sam Costello didn't bring his kicking boots. He refers to those two Dyer derbies we had, retaining Rio and Wayne Wright was a positive for him. Mike says, a disappointing start and not much prospect of improvement. Priority must be the front five. Yeah, I think we can all agree. We've had a couple of comments about the front five. Brayne Getson Toucher says, when are the region going to prioritise developing the front five? Games have won and lost, yeah. Doesn't matter if you ask Alf Edwards and Barry John and Affleck. Without a competitive front five, we would sit languishing in the bottom two. It's been a problem for ages to have the front five. You know, we spoke about it on the pod a lot. Every season, you know, I've been on social media for a long time. We as Dragon fans always talk about the front five. And it's not like we haven't tried to improve it. You know, like I said, you know, you bring in players like Rob Evans and you bring in Aki Salu, you think they're going to make an impact, but they just don't, do they? It's really just the front five. I think the front five thing was a grand thing, because we, you know, unlike our fancy mates further west in the country, we do love a hard bloke in Gwent. And I think that's why we always kind of talk about front five players in Gwent. You know, we've built world-beating front rows in our valley. So, you know, we expect it. I do think the Dragons are trying to develop a front row, though, you know, that's why players like Hofflyn and Yndal are getting into the squad, because they're trying to develop these young players into a functioning front row. The problem is, as proven by the guys who were starting at 1-3 for Wales this weekend, there's not many of them out there. No, that's the thing. Owen gets in touch, he said, pre-season expectations, lost some big names, so hard to expect improvement. First two games at home, Edinburgh bring back four internationals, Cardiff bring back three internationals, Green bring back none. That was the difference in both games. The only thing I would say, though, I should have beaten Edinburgh. I don't think the fact they brought back internationals was the difference in that game. The difference was we refused to take the points on offer, and we did not build the lead that we should have done, and then we shut the bed and we lost. So Edinburgh should have been a winnable game. Cardiff was just diabolical. Yeah, it was frustrating for that game where, you know, they did sort of rush back their internationals, didn't they, Cardiff? And we didn't. Dan Liggett was due to play, but he pulled out. So, yeah, some frustration there, I think. But I think the internationals didn't make the difference in the first game against Cardiff. It was the fact we missed our opportunity with Jared Rosser, and then we were bloody boneheaded when we kicked the ball. It's not we kicked the ball too much, we kicked the ball wrong. And that's what lost us that game. Yeah, he did add that Wainwright and Rios signed on the positives. I will buy another season ticket. Good man. That's what we need, you know, in these tough times. And we know it's very difficult being a driving supporter, we know it, but you've got to keep buying a season ticket and going to support the club, because they need our support. And if the club is going to survive, it needs good people buying into it. If you don't, it doesn't survive, does it? Which is easy for me to say, because I live direct opposite either side of the country, but you know, it's... Yeah, absolutely. No, you're right. Stephen has said he's talking about the lack of cutting edge in our backs. Line breaks are rarely made. Jared Ross has raised his game, but never seemed to be coasting. I think that's a little bit harsh, to be honest. But I do think there is an issue about attack, and that comes under the remit of Matt O'Brien and Dave Flanagan. The cutting edge, we definitely need that, because, you know, you watch the Sharks game and go back to the Zebra game and other games before that. We're not very good. We're good again into the 22, but we're just not clinical when we're in the red zone. We lack accuracy, don't we? You know, we make plenty of entries, but we just haven't got that finishing touch that we need. Because I don't think it's cutting edge that we lack, it's precision. We do make line breaks. Will Reid runs a lovely diagonal line off the nine a lot, and it's very difficult to defend. And, you know, Seal Tomkinson, his lines are running are less fancy, they're just quite route one. And he can do it, you know, and Darroch broke the line a few times, Ewan Ross has broken the line. I don't think we're breaking the line. Like you say, it's just we, you know, we get in the final third and we fall apart, to use a football analogy. Yeah, Owen gets in touch. He says it's been really inconsistent. Overall, I would say it's below expectations. We know we're no world leaders and it's a work in progress, but some massive defeats have been really disappointing. Although on a positive note, he likes the fact that we're developing young, great talent, and he says it's the way forward. So, yeah, those are fair points, I'd say. Yeah, you know, it's good to end on that positive, isn't it? To say, look, this season has been below expectations, Gav, hasn't it? I'd say so, yeah. We both said we felt we could finish 12th, 13th. And maybe we are, maybe we're over the top, you know, maybe we are glass-half-full types, but I think we have underperformed. I'm really disappointed. I know I mentioned this before, but Europe, for me, is a massive letdown because we should have been in the last 16 and I would have expected us to be a bit more competitive in the league. There's been too many lopsided defeats, hasn't it? It does feel a little bit like the same old Yeah, so for me, I have to say it's underwhelming. I don't think 13th was too optimistic. I mean, I can tell you this now. When I made my predictions on the WAP part, Lee asked us to put our predictions where each region's going to finish out on social media. When I put out that the Dragons were finishing 13th, people got in touch with me saying, oh, that's a bit negative. I thought you'd have the Dragons a bit higher, you know, be a bit more optimistic with the score. Do you go now and everybody coming down to the same budget? Now it looks like it's a little bit over-optimistic, doesn't it? But I did think that Cardiff would, you know, in fairness to Cardiff, they have been very competitive and I think the chaos they had in the off-season has brought them together. You know, a bit that adversity has, you know, made them a stronger unit than they are before we've been inspected. But I did think we'd be a bit more competitive and I did think we'd be, well, not where the Ospreys are, but I did think we'd be sort of maybe second best Welsh team, you know, but it's not turned out that way. Even the Ospreys, I'm coming around your way thinking, well, you were always right. They are the best of the Welsh teams, but they're probably only the seventh best team in that league. Yeah, but let's not forget the Ospreys as well. They have got the best squad and even when they're down to the bare bones, there's a lot of fight in Britain. You know, this is what I was talking about earlier. I just want to see Dragons have that fight. We saw Ospreys in South Africa, that amazing comeback winning against the Lions. They had like 20-odd players in the city, they were down to the bare bones. I want to see that from the Dragons and I'll spend this to win week in, week out. I want to see fight, I want to see grit, I want to see determination. If the going gets tough, I want us to be able to bounce back and learn how to be better under pressure instead of buckling and the heads dropping. That's all I want to see from this Dragons team. And, you know, Ospreys have got good culture, but Toby Booth is the most experienced out of the four coaches. Let's not forget that. They're probably a little bit further down the road, well, not further down the road than we are, I would say. The rest of us have got sort of rookie coaches, haven't we? You know, Dwayne Deal is still, you know, learning as a head coach. I mean, is he really up to the job as head coach? We don't know. Dave Flanagan, we could ask the same question, but Dave Flanagan, he's learning on the job. Is he up to the head coach job? Juvie's still out and you've got Matt Sherrod as well, Jockey at Cardiff, who's doing a fairly good job. He's been trapped into it as well. Yeah, and Toby Booth mystifies me because whenever he talks, he reminds me of Ted Lasso. Believe and all that stuff. Yeah, it's not really gritty. You hear Dolly talking, he's like, well, you know, we need to do this, we need to do that. Toby Booth talks in Ted Lasso style. But it works, that. Maybe that's what Dave Flanagan needs to start doing. Maybe he needs to be more Ted Lasso to get some more out of the players. Who knows? I think the work on the paddock is what works for our space. Because I think that's what our work is like, because there are still errors being made. Anyway, I'm not going to say to him after we've said, bring Dai on. Oh, no, absolutely not. Like I said, I'd love to have a good chat with him. I'm not criticising him, I'm just giving my honest opinion. Kim Rheon would be good as well. He would, wouldn't he? We'll have to send his mum a DM. Well, I know they listen as well, so, you know. They absolutely do. Absolutely do. OK, so if you're going to rate the season, Daf, I think we all agree, Chris, me and you tonight, and the last supporters, it has been disappointing. It has got that familiar feeling about it. It has been underwhelming. And it's great news about Rio and Aaron Steyn and the rest of his young talents. But overall, it's been disappointing. Why are you rating the season so far out of 10? Out of 10? Good. I often have to make these kind of decisions in a professional context, but this is slightly different. How would I rate this out of 10? Four and a half. Four, no, not a half. Four out of 10. I can agree. I'm going to say four. You do expect the Dragons to cop a couple of heavy defeats. I'm really still upset and annoyed about that Cardiff game, though. That was a real sucker punch, that was. Because we just didn't see that coming, did we? And that, for me, is, you know, the Sharks were disappointing. That was a record defeat, but you could kind of see that coming because, you know, we had injuries, we had a weak squad. And don't forget, Sharks put all their Springbok players back, didn't they? So they were fully loaded and at home. They had a point to prove. They were always going to go gung-ho at us. So I kind of expected that. I'm a little bit disappointed about the last 20 minutes because it did look like, you know, we talked about them throwing in the white towel and stuff. But the Cardiff one, that still leaves a sour taste in my mouth. But the Cardiff game, and I wasn't even there, like I said, I was so glad you played, but I watched the game back. I played for the supporters who went there. You know, if you turned up and paid money to see that, you know, it's just... I was listening to that game on the M4. We were driving up. Were we driving back? No, we were driving back. No, we were driving to my mum's. Yeah, we were driving up to Wales. There's one point we just got past Swindon and I felt like opening the door and just rolling out of the car rather than listening to it anymore. Yeah, it was awful. We can never see another performance like that in a Derby game. And because the games against Cardiff use us so much closer, they're much tighter. We know the outcome we always lose, but they're all much tighter. And to see that happen was just, yeah, leaves a sour taste in the mouth for me. Right, before we go then, Gareth, I want to get your prediction as well on Wales. I don't think I asked you for your prediction. What do you think the score is going to be? That's why I'm asking you now. So who's going to win this weekend? Right, who do I think is going to win this weekend? I know you were speaking to Johnny McGinty on the RAF podcast. I've been talking to Johnny today and he thinks I'm insane that I think Wales might win. I don't think Wales will win, but I think they might win. So I think Scotland will win 21-18, but I wouldn't be surprised if Wales won by the same score. Yeah, so we talked about this on the RAF pod and I said that Scotland would never have a better time to end this who do. So they haven't won in Cardiff since 2002. You look at the two teams, the lineups, it should be pretty straightforward win for Scotland. However, I just got this feeling they're going to shit the bed again. I've just got this feeling that Scotland are going to turn up full of confidence and it's going to go wrong for them. The roof is open, isn't it? Yeah, the roof is going to be open. The Cardiff factor, I don't feel it will win and I could be horribly wrong. I probably will be. We might get pumped, but I just got this feeling that we're going to pull off a win here. So I'm going to say Wales by six. Johnny said to me when I was chatting with him earlier, he said that third is the bare minimum Scotland expect this time rather than, a target. And today's Saturday is where they'll define that. But I think we could bite them in the arse. If they don't beat this Welsh team, then we can't take Scotland seriously for the rest of the tournament as far as I'm concerned. You can't take them seriously. Nor as a tournament winning team. If they genuinely, and I try not to pay too much attention to rugby fans, because all rugby fans are a bit one-eyed. But if they genuinely, well we aren't, that's because we're the best ones Jamie. But if you think you're a tournament winning side, you have to come to Cardiff and win convincingly. Because France will, Ireland will. Yeah, absolutely. So you may or may not be playing this weekend then. You don't know. If you're playing, you won't be able to watch the game then, will you? No, no, I will be. It's two o'clock kick-off. Oh yeah, that's all right then. The plan was two o'clock kick-off at home. Then watch the game in the clubhouse. Sounds good. Afterwards. Now it depends. People listening to the Dragons podcast don't want to know, but they can see the Sussex rugby. But most of the Sussex clubs are in the middle of the county. And we're out on the kind of far east corner of it. And there's only three clubs in our area. And there's like 15 around Brighton. So clubs don't like to travel to us. That's because we live in the arse end of Norway. So, I don't know. I'll probably be in some weird bit of Kent tomorrow if I want to play. But we will see what happens on Saturday. It's not even, yeah, it's not Friday. I've lost track of days. And just to confirm, you have retired, yeah? Yeah, I'm fully retired, yeah. Apart from the weekends, I'm not. That's what I'm looking at. I'm retired apart from when I play. Retired apart from when I play. Brilliant. Okay, I think we'll call it a wrap now. Yeah, there was a really good chat with Chris, wasn't there? I enjoyed that. I'm always scared to get his insight. Fair play to him for juggling both county and Dragons. We might wake up to county signing someone really exciting. Or we wake up and Will Evans has gone. Someone like that, Shane McLaughlin, who knows, fingers crossed. I'd be all right if Will went to a Saudi Arabian club for £10 million. Yeah, he deserves it. The four me's down at the moment. That'd be great for the county, wouldn't it? Brilliant. Okay, then, I think we'll leave it there, Gav. Thank you, as always, for joining me. And thank you all for listening. We'll be back not next week, the week after, I think it's next week. Glasgow's on next year. So, I think we might, given the mistakes, we're going to be back in a couple of weeks. So, hopefully, we'll have Johnny McGinty join us, if his internet is working, because we did the WRAP pod this week, and we had some technical issues from Johnny, it's fair to say. Yeah, we will have to see how that one goes. But like I said, thank you, Gav, and thank you all for listening. We'll speak soon. Goodbye. Thank you for listening to the Dragon's Lair podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Please subscribe, rate and review wherever you listen to us, as it really helps spread the word. You can find us on all the usual social media channels, or email us on welshregionalrugbypod at gmail.com. And remember, whatever the question is, Rugby is always the answer.