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Jamie and Gavin discuss their disappointment in the recent performances of their favorite rugby teams. They also mention that their podcast can be found on various platforms and ask listeners to rate and review their show. They then introduce their guest, former rugby player Jamie Rayner, who talks about his early rugby experiences and the influence of his coach and father. Jamie also discusses the challenges of having a famous rugby player father and reflects on his own career. They then discuss the decline of Welsh rugby and the lack of physicality in current players. They speculate on the reasons for this decline, including a lack of depth and changes in school rugby. Welcome to the Dragon's Lake. Hello and welcome to the Dragon's Lake Podcast, your home of all things Dragons, RFC and rugby in the region. I'm Jamie and joining me as always is Gavin Thomas. How are you doing, Gav? I'm very well, Jamie, very well. My club missed out on finishing the league season unbeaten yesterday. We lost at home to our biggest rivals, but other than that, I'm coping. That's a shame, isn't it? It's not been a good weekend for us, has it? Dragons, Newport County, Wales Women, your team as well. It's not the best weekend, really, is it? No, not ideally. No. OK, so you can find us on platforms such as Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podcasts and the Sports Social Network. And if you like what we do, please rate us and leave us a good review as it all helps to grow the pod. Right then, Gav, so tonight we are joined by a special guest, a former Dragon who made 140 appearances for the region between 2003 and 2009. He also won caps for Wales Day and Wales Sevens before two senior Wales caps against Japan in 2001. Welcome to the pod, Jamie Rayner. How are you doing, Jay? Cheers, guys. Great to be here. My pleasure, yes. Just going through what you've been saying, it seems like yesterday, but it seems like forever ago. My fondest memories, I would say, is my time at the Dragons. Great times, great supporters, great club, great region, sorry to say. Sorry, slip of the tongue. But no, great times. Oh, great. Nice one. Good to hear you say that. So we'll ask you what we ask all our guests, all the former players. How did your journey into rugby begin? Where did it all start for you there, Jay? It started for me, my junior did his palace, rugby. So at least, I don't know whether you remember me before your time, but there was, I was coached by a guy called Peter Pearce, who was the father of the lefty ex-SNR fan, turned rugby league, Gary Pearce. I don't really remember Gary Pearce, but brilliant, brilliant player in his own right. But Peter was a massive influence on my early years as rugby. People think sometimes, oh, it's dad playing rugby and what have you, but I'd say Peter, as much as dad's always been supportive, but Peter, from an early age, I played from the age of six. And no, it was a great junior club. I played there until I was youth rugby. My last year of youth rugby, I went to Cardiff Youth. So yeah, I'd say Peter was a major influence on me, as well as brought through some other good pros. I remember John Calderley, who played for Newport and Pontypridd, in the centre. So yeah, we had some good, a lot of good talent came through that area that time. But yeah, those were the early years. Yeah. And of course, your dad, Paul Ringer, who also played for Wales. And I just wonder, Jake, did you find that family name was a helpful hindrance in your career? Like, did you feel under pressure to sort of live up to those standards? I just wonder. Well, he was pretty much, he's done everything the wrong way. So I would say he was pretty much a hindrance on my career, to be honest with you. He was pretty much an anti-establishment type of guy. You know, great dad, loved the bits and great, great guy and he's loved by many. But bloody hell, he went against the grain in every possible way you could mean. But yeah, sometimes, I mean, I didn't think about it too much. You try and get on with what you're doing and try and be as good as you can be and try and people accept you for who you are and almost kind of forget about it. But sometimes you can't win because sometimes you get in certain places, you have to work extra hard sometimes because people think you're only there because your dad played and what have you. But sometimes, you know, it's a double-edged sword, really, in that respect. But to be honest with you, it didn't really bother me on that. I think maybe there was a couple of times I'll go into, there was a move to another Welsh club, which I was due to sign for, but a bit of background politics happened, which I won't kind of go into too much, but there's a reason why I never joined the club. It was one of his ex-clubs. But yeah, no, he's been, I love someone that, he's always been there, you know, and it's nice to have someone to lean on who's great rugby at the highest level. But I'd say more of a hindrance. You must have heard that story so many times about you getting sent off at Twickenham. Yeah. But, you know, I'll tell you what's great, is that I thought that I knew everything, but then I watched the programme slam, which is an amazing show, and, you know, to watch that and find out a bit of detail about actually what went on in that game. And the thing about that game is Terry Holmes was my coach at Cardiff, who was someone that I used to go and watch in the stands. My nan used to take me to the arts park and he's a hero and I ended up being my coach, who I was just in awe of. And Terry, and then to see him and John Scott, he kicked John Scott in the back of the head in the one clip. They were teammates. I played golf with John Scott and Richard and I just think to myself, this is absolute craziness. You know, it was in the first 15, 20 minutes, everyone was trying to kick everyone in the back of the head. It was a back of the head job and it was, and they were all, they played club rugby together. So what chance did anyone else have? So, and then obviously dad, as he said to me, flicked the mascara off the fella's eye and I just marched on. I think if you look through the timeline, I think the Wales Online did something. The actual timeline was, it was like Rourke's Grip on that. I mean, it was a case of the next person to step out of line was Gordon, wasn't it? One of them situations, he'd lost control of the game there. But the thing that actually gripped me with the slam was, it was the political backgrounds were all as well. It wasn't just the French game where the French complained about the Welsh brutality, John Pierre's in particular. But it was the political backgrounds, what was going on in Wales at the time. It was kind of us against the world type of job, wasn't it at the time? And the sad thing was, people see, saw that game as the demise of Welsh rugby for a good sort of eight to 10 years. Didn't it, a period after that, really? Yes, it did. Yes, it was. As a fan, clearly, it wasn't just about that one result, was it? It was about where the game was going at that time and England were ahead of us. England had picked the game up and had not progressed as much, but they were certainly better organised. And that's where it came from. And then we lost an entire generation to rugby league, like your dad went as well, didn't you? Yes, I think that was it. I think it's easy to pinpoint the game and say that's where it all went wrong. But we were teetering on the back of an era of legends and exceptional talent. I mean, you could align that slightly with a little bit of what's going on now, really, where you have a golden generation of players that come along. And sometimes you just go through phases where things are good and things aren't so good. But, yes, my dad went to the rugby league for the Cardiff Blue Dragons. I did, instead of Tommy David, I just defended with Bryn Mawr. I mean, who could blame them in the times where you were all out there? I mean, it hits home when you remember, I think, Glenn Webb, when he went to the World Cup, he said about what the teamies were doing and they were working jobs. Oh, that was God sent, and trying to get training, and play, and miss work. I haven't been lucky enough to be paid to play the game I love for so many years. The sacrifices those boys made for nothing, it was unbelievable. Oh, yes, and it was a different game as well, wasn't it? Far less well-policed, as proven by the game we talked about there. So, when you were growing up, Jamie, you clearly played a similar position to your dad. Was that a conscious thing, or was that just culture saying, you're a big lad, you're strong, this is where you need to play? No, I tried my best to stay in the back, if I'm honest, but I sadly got moved closer and further and further in. Yes, I tried to do mini rugby, I'd say sort of nine, and sort of made the centre, but then gradually told to get in the back row. I can't actually remember who actually put me in there, but I was pretty much told to play there. It gravitated towards a position, I suppose, is what it means. Your natural talent pointed you in that direction. For me, back row is the best of both worlds, really, in my opinion. It's an amazing position to play, either six, seven or eight. Again, a bit of both worlds of playing, being one of the glory boys now and again, to be back in with the front five, you know? As a player, Jamie, you were hard-carrying, you were very physical. Why are we producing players like Dan Wales at the minute? Because we haven't got blokes who can get over the game, we haven't got blokes who can smack people off the rack, legally. Do you know what, I was just having this chat the other day, even though we've never been a huge nation, when I go back to think about my era and some of the people that are around, like Sir Colin Charvis, Craig Cornell, Mike Boyles, Chris Wyatt, you're talking about Moriarty, Moriarty was still around towards the back end then. There were some confrontational, big, tough forwards around, and at the moment, for some reason or another, and I brought up some guys, I brought up the other day, just about the strength in depth. Now, you've got to say that regional rugby, in terms of the academy of the young players that we've produced, you can't argue that it's worth, it's amazing, but I just question sometimes, I don't know whether it's players numbers or the fact that we've seen the end of an era of some of the schools rugby that was so strong back when I was a kid. But we just haven't got the same strength and depth, and whether or not people want to argue against that is the truth, because sides are finding it hard to, club sides, junior sides, are finding it hard to find players. I just don't think as many, we're not producing as many players, and it's a numbers game, isn't it? And I think, also I'll add on to that, I just think that football in my view, in terms of the city, and Swansea, they weren't having the same success, I think more kids are playing football and other sports now. I think just generally, you're putting numbers into a hopper at the top, and you get some things that come out the bottom, the more and more you put in the top, the more chance you've got of producing players, and I think there's less, I could be wrong, I don't understand numbers, but I just think there's probably less numbers. Because we're creating back rows, who are good at the breakdown, Tommy Raphel and Morgan, but what we aren't getting are the likes of you, Chavis, Moriarty, who are just going to pick the ball up, run at people, and make them tackle them. Do you know what, I was watching the Dragons game last night, and I've done loads of rugby now, I watch enough, to see that the Dragons, in my opinion, if they've got a set of back rows, Olly Griffiths is fit, but I scratch my head thinking, why doesn't Tane Basham play eighth? In my opinion, he's more of an eighth. Another situation where I struggle to think, Wales are struggling for carriers at the moment, Fyler Towles out, why hasn't he been given a go at eighth? Why he got dropped out to 23, I don't know the inside of what, but he's definitely, to me, has got that. And also, I see that that was one of the first games, it could be wrong, but one of the first I've seen him play actually started eighth last evening, and for me, if you put him eighth, Olly Griffiths is back foot seven, and then Wayne Wright six, or the other guy, then, I mean, there's not many back rows, in my opinion, that's a fantastic back row, but I just think he's definitely one that can cart ball, and we're not producing them by the players at the minute. He played better last night than he has done for a while for Dragons, to be honest. Is that because he's played eighth? Because every time I see him, maybe he seems to be playing him at seven, really. Am I wrong? Has he had many starts at eighth? No, he's predominantly been seven. He does play most of his rugby at seven, and Wayne Wright plays at eighth a lot, if Wayne Wright's about. Yeah. I don't know whether, for me, the balance of a back row is everything, for me. I mean, the best back row I've played in was probably me, Fozzie, and Michael Owens. It's all about balance, isn't it? And I just don't know whether they've quite got that right. I mean, they've got an abundance of talent, in my opinion. I know it hasn't quite happened, but I look on and think the talent's there with them, in so many areas, but they've been unlucky with a couple of key positions, and Olly Griffiths is a huge player for them. Yeah, absolutely. It's just where Olly's never fit, and that's the problem, isn't it? Yeah. At the moment, it's just really, really difficult. With Tate Bash, though, he did play a date in our last game against Ulster Leeds. Very good set. But I think there's a question mark between a date over his size, perhaps that's why he's not been considered a date, but you're saying, James, you prefer him a date rather than a date over his size? You've just got to look at the way they play. He's direct, and he's quick off the feet. I mean, it's not all about him being like... For him, obviously, you've got to be quick now, in that position, to get off the back of the base of the scrum. But for me, even if you play him seven, why can't you slot him in at eight? You know? It's just he's got to do what's best for you, whatever's best for you in that position. But it's only my... You know, sometimes you've got guys who are in that environment day in, day out. You know, that Dai Fan and the boys there, they know ten times more than I know. But I just... The perception of what I see is... I'm surprised he never got more of a crack with Wales, because they were severely lacking ball carriers and sort of game breakers to get over that game line. And I thought he would have at least added something coming off the bench. Yeah, no, that's a fair point. I think he only made one appearance at the Six Nations, didn't he? Yeah. Which I think is a shame. Yeah, well, he came on late. I can't remember what game it was. England, I think. Oh, yeah, he came on late five minutes, and then he was dropped out of World Obscurity. So, that's a head-scratcher. Yes, absolutely. And don't get me wrong, the boy that came from Cardiff, young lad, you know, his work rate's fantastic, but we've got no-one in there of any size, have we? No, we haven't. Take Aaron's performance of carrying the ball in the one game he played, I can't think he was outstanding. Who did he play? Is it against Ireland? Aaron Weiner, I think we could argue he was man of the match. Yeah, I just think that's a debt. I'm just going back to the original point, just not producing big, powerful men at the moment, and it's a real worry, isn't it? Let's be honest, because without Fala Tau doing that job for us, he's not that type of player, mind you. He uses his footwork. For me, looking on, he's a player that I would pay to watch. He's just a world-class player, in my opinion. Someone we've been very, very lucky to have. Oh, absolutely. Can't argue with that. I was finishing my career at Cardiff, semi-pro, and I think he was playing for the Crosskeys, he was starting his career, and I was just like, he was just gliding around the field, and I just thought, this kid's going to be, this kid's the real deal. He just watched someone, the way they move around the field, and I just thought, you know, for me, he's probably been one of the best No. 8 players I've ever had. Yeah, definitely the best dragon as well. The seven-footer on the dragon's shirt. And a great player. It's going to amount to that. Unassuming great lad, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Okay then, so, you won two Wales Cups whilst you were playing for Bridgend. Both of those Cups came against Japan on the summer tour of 2001. You came on as a replacement in Osaka and Tokyo. What were your memories from that tour there, Jay? And were you nervous at all about making your Wales debut? No, yeah, it was all sort of like, I don't know, because I think there was an injury. I think Goffey, funny enough, got injured. And he decided not to take second row. And I remember, I played against Caerphilly last game of the season, and I actually had an injury myself. I actually tore my PCL. And then they rang me up, and then I got the call to say, and I was in a situation of trying to get fit myself. I actually didn't say to them, well, I just picked up an injury. And I just managed to get... To this day, it was something in my career I never had it operated on. I just sort of rehabbed it and managed to get the tour, but I actually wasn't fully fit. But it's not the sort of chance you're going to give up, is it? So I kind of cobbled my way through the training to get there, and it was fantastic times. Albeit, you know, I think I probably played better rugby. The irony is I was playing, I think, better rugby later on in my career than I was actually when I got capped. You know, I think I left Cardiff when Martin Williams signed there. What year was that? It would be 2000, around that period. No, no, yeah, 2099. Yeah, 1999, when Martin Williams went there. Yeah, and Dennis John rang me up. Dennis went there and said he'd told me his plan and what he wanted to do and the players he wanted to bring in. And I wanted to play, you know. I didn't want to hang around and be part of the squad. And Martin was a top player and I understood my chances were going to be limited and you want to play. So that decision was vindicated, obviously, by getting game time and being capped. And Dennis was a great coach and really great, you know, enjoyable times. And Gareth Thomas was signed back there. Dad went there, signed a lot of good players and qualified for the European Cup as well, you know. So some good times. That was a good Bridgend team, wasn't it? Yeah. Around that time. Yeah. No, we didn't. It was good times. And, I mean, everything sort of, it sort of all came around to what happened then. Obviously, whispers came around about regional rugby and what have you. But when you consider how many teams we had there and some of the players that were going around, you know, there was a, although, it just, to be honest, for me, that's kind of, sometimes it makes it harder to understand is that we had sort of the amount of players that we had in certain positions but yet we were told we had to go into regional rugby because there wasn't enough players to go around. But now we've sort of, it seems to be, you know, if you look in certain positions, i.e. Hucker and sort of 10 at the moment, or be it the ones who are actually legible and they were so thin on the ground some positions aren't, it's like, you know. Yeah. Okay. So after you were retired from playing rugby in 2014, you went into coaching then with the Cardiff Blues Academy and then you spent two seasons as a defence coach at Merthyr before finally calling it the day for rugby. Just wondering, why did you decide to not coaching on the head? Yeah. Did you fall out of love with it? No. Yeah, well, I was enjoying my time coaching at the Blues Academy which Hodges gave me an opportunity there, I did my badges and I loved my time there. I coached some top players, Callum Sheedy being one standout player that I coached at that time. But, and then it was, I was sort of encouraged, the word would be, to go for a job at Whitchurch High and to say I was cheesed off is an understatement. Anyway, I didn't get the job which I thought I was qualified to get and I just thought to myself, you know what, this is probably not for me. And I went in a completely different direction. I went into commercial finance and I've been in the same game. It's probably the best thing that ever happened to me if I'm honest. You know, at the time I was devastated. What a load of you know what this is. I'm not qualified to do this job and I don't know, you know, and you think to yourself and then I've gone into a completely different industry and it's been, in a touch of words, it's been really good for me. So, albeit though then I had sort of in between that period of time I coached at Cardiff, Cardiff RSC, coached the defence there and then went to Merthyr. So, I had great times at Merthyr because I went there with Jarv when they were just on the up, Div 1, Championship and I sort of went in with them into the Prem. So, great people. A guy called Peter Morgan was involved then as team manager who actually was at the Blue Dragons with my dad. Great characters. And it kind of took it back to me to what it was all about in the beginning. You know what I mean? I kind of, but then work was getting sort of busy and I just didn't, and I was having to get up there twice a week. I just said to the guys, a chief was there at the time and he said, I can't give you the time that the job needs really. So, no, but left on great terms and really enjoyable time at Merthyr. Oh, good stuff. Do you miss it at all though, Jade, rugby, like coaching, do you think? No, you know what, I'm not, I don't miss it and that's a barometer really, isn't it, I thought to myself, I do miss it and you've got to ask yourself a question, maybe you should get back involved but no, and you've got to respect the guys who are involved because it changes, the game, it changes all the time. You know, you've got to be up to speed and you want to be going in and out for something and cobbling the job really. But, no, I mean, I love the game also as well. My eldest, my son, my eldest, went through with him, he played at Parnarth until like in the sixties level and went through with him and coached with his side, that was highly enjoyable and that was enough for me really so I've kind of just just like to watch the odd game really now and you know, but I still love the game. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah, that's fair enough. Okay, let's talk about Wales then. So, first wooden spoon in a Six Nations since 2003. Wales have now lost 12 of the past 13 Six Nations matches. What did you make of it, Jade? Do you think that Wales has lost his golden touch? I think, listen, I think that to a certain extent you've got to understand that he's he's probably thinking, right, I need to start from scratch here now, pick some guys to try and get some depth in some areas. Some boys aren't even playing regional rugby or getting caps and I understand what he's trying to say because he's probably, you know, I know the one boy from Parnarth, Evan Lloyd, he's going on, you know, he's trying to see where that boy can get to rather than where he is now and I get that completely, you know, and potentially he's a specimen of a boy and he's probably thinking he can pull him on in certain areas but my only worry was and it's all very well picking these youngsters but I think they need, you know, certain areas and watch the Italian game and their attacking structure compared to us has stood out to me because I think defensively, I thought we've had loads you know, you can't fault the attitude of the players I thought that my forward and I think defensively we've been we've been decent and I think you can't fault that attitude of some of these players the young boys are coming it's been fantastic but for me one area of real concern for me was looking at the attacking shape for Italy as opposed to us stood out a mile you know just through the options and now sort of one dimensional we've got some of the stuff with stuff that I've that is some of the structures we were using back bloody when I was playing which is donkey's years ago it looked it looked quite quite poor really in attack and it was very basic wasn't it there's lots of run up runners and you know you can defend that you can the terrible level I play at we defend some god knows international level and I I mean the only thing I would say is when I spoke to one of the guys who was a British Idol mentioned his name and he just said that where the Steeler Marsh was he used to work them so hard they were so fit but what his point was everyone's fit now and I just think that you know some of these guys are coached to be so smart now you know you've only got to look how well coached Ireland are and I just think maybe we've just fallen behind a little bit in that area I don't know I know and I could be I could be wrong but that's kind of the perception for me especially in attack and I you've only got to look you know in terms of I don't know how many line breaks and what stats were but for me I watched the game from behind the post against Italy and their shape in terms of they always had the man option at the back we just looked to a very one dimensional that was a bit of a worry to me we made four line breaks in the entire tournament did we? yeah that was a stat we were the next lowest was 8 or 9 see and I mean that says that says everything and I honestly think that it's easy I think he may have to make some harsh choices in terms of some of the coaches around him no doubt you can't argue that you know what he brings to as a coach manager you know I've been inside the ropes if you like some of the well sessions and he'll pop in and out certain sessions but he relies heavily on his coaches you know he's more of a manager team manager than he is a coach and if that's the case then he's got to bring the people in to do the job only if I may because because the stats don't lie do they? no we are not in a good place right now no and I understand what he's trying to do with blood players but if you're on the end of a a slack in every week it's not a good thing is it? you know if you're losing every week it's difficult to motivate yourself as a player then well I mean if you're a youngster then they just need a bit more support they need more help don't they? they need more direction they need better coaching it's as simple as that and I just think because you can't fail to take the attitude that they show throughout the tournament some of these guys it's been fantastic but to be honest some of the part you know the English game in particular shows some amazing dog and fight to stand hanging there in that game you know so there was pluses I mean it's easy to get down and say we haven't got this we haven't got that but for me it's more of a worry the general feel and where we're going in Welsh rugby in particular as opposed to at the very top you know yeah okay well here's a question for you now then Jay right so we know that Welsh rugby is going through a pretty tough time at the moment the Welsh regions are struggling in the URC Dragons are currently rock bottom in the league the Welsh under-20s Gavin touched on earlier their physicality the women's game does seem to be in a better place but here's a question for you is Welsh rugby in crisis and what do you think are the main problems what does Welsh rugby need to get right I know it's a tricky question to answer but what do you feel Welsh rugby is going on I think I take it back to I tell you what I think when I was playing I think there was a major major major balls up when I was playing I played in the rebel season we played against the English clubs in Swansea and the fall out of that which was great I think we were offered 6 places in the English league and I think 2 in the championship wasn't it I think 6 and 2 and they wanted 8 didn't they yeah that's right they wanted 8 that was an absolute I don't think we've recovered it might sound like a big statement but I don't think we've recovered from that point because commercially wise it would be huge for Welsh rugby and I think we still need that but also I think the good point is for that at the moment there's been periods in that time where they haven't needed us anymore but I think equally I think they need us now and I think potentially that's what's going to happen I think somehow there's got to be some kind of Anglo Welsh sort of tie up whether or not it's tied up with the Irish clubs and with the Welsh clubs I think commercially it's got to happen to make everything viable because even the English clubs are struggling we've got salary caps everywhere and you've got to start worrying for where it's all going really and I will say that I've read Dyflan's interview that he gave in terms of where they're looking to spend the money I think it can start I also Jiffy spoke on a podcast about where we should go I think we should start cutting it down to three and I don't think that's the way forward just cutting down your pool even more but then the bragging as much as I we are going to come under fire to say well hang on I'll look at the win percentage there we go but in my opinion if you look behind the scenes commercially in my opinion they've got everything in place for this to be I think important for the club as well as developing what we have in terms of the pathway in terms of facilities that's where the money should be spent but what I will say on that is couple that with you do need to start putting on something just start winning on the field because fans you know as much as the die-hards at the Dragons will be there week in week out and I've done so I've done so I've done so I've done so I've done so I've done so I've done so I've done so I've done so I've done so I've 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