Dragons Lair: Where do we go from here?

Welcome to the Dragon's Lair. Hello and welcome to the Dragon's Lair podcast, your home of all things Dragon's RFC and rugby in the region. Fy enw i yw Gavin Thomas. Gav, sut rydych chi'n ei wneud? Rydw i'n iawn, Jamie. Mae fy ngwasanaethau gwaith yn rhoi i mi fynd ymlaen ar ôl ddod o hyd yn oed. Mae'n ddiddorol i'r bobl sy'n rhoi i mi, nid ystyried bod angen i mi wneud fy ngwasanaethau gwaith ar ddiweddarau, ond nid yw'n bwysig. Rydyn ni yma ar ddiweddar iawn ar gyfer rygbi Cymru. Mae'n ddiddorol i'r bobl sy'n rhoi i mi fynd ymlaen ar ôl ddod o hyd yn oed. Mae'n ddiddorol i'r bobl sy'n rhoi i mi fynd ymlaen ar ôl ddod o hyd yn oed. Mae'n ddiddorol i'r bobl sy'n rhoi i mi fynd ymlaen ar ôl ddod o hyd yn oed. Mae'n ddiddorol i'r bobl sy'n rhoi i mi fynd ymlaen ar ôl ddod o hyd yn oed. Mae'n ddiddorol i'r bobl sy'n rhoi i mi fynd ymlaen ar ôl ddod o hyd yn oed. Mae'n ddiddorol i'r bobl sy'n rhoi i mi fynd ymlaen ar ôl ddod o hyd yn oed. Mae'n ddiddorol i'r bobl sy'n rhoi i mi fynd ymlaen ar ôl ddod o hyd yn oed. Mae'n ddiddorol i'r bobl sy'n rhoi i mi fynd ymlaen ar ôl ddod o hyd yn oed. Mae'n ddiddorol i'r bobl sy'n rhoi i mi fynd ymlaen ar ôl ddod o hyd yn oed. Mae'n ddiddorol i'r bobl sy'n rhoi i mi fynd ymlaen ar ôl ddod o hyd yn oed. Mae'n ddiddorol i'r bobl sy'n rhoi i mi fynd ymlaen ar ôl ddod o hyd yn oed. Mae'n ddiddorol i'r bobl sy'n rhoi i mi fynd ymlaen ar ôl ddod o hyd yn oed. Mae'n ddiddorol i'r bobl sy'n rhoi i mi fynd ymlaen ar ôl ddod o hyd yn oed. Mae'n ddiddorol i'r bobl sy'n rhoi i mi fynd ymlaen ar ôl ddod o hyd yn oed. Mae'n ddiddorol i'r bobl sy'n rhoi i mi fynd ymlaen ar ôl ddod o hyd yn oed. Mae'n ddiddorol i'r bobl sy'n rhoi i mi fynd ymlaen ar ôl ddod o hyd yn oed. Mae'n ddiddorol i'r bobl sy'n rhoi i mi fynd ymlaen ar ôl ddod o hyd yn oed. Mae'n ddiddorol i'r bobl sy'n rhoi i mi fynd ymlaen ar ôl ddod o hyd yn oed. Nid oeddwn i'n gwylio'r gêm, oherwydd roeddwn i'n chwarae ei hun, ac roeddwn i'n dod allan o'r ffyrdd, ar ddiwedd ein gêm, ac roeddwn i'n gweld eich blwc yn siart yng Nghymru, nad oeddwn i'n gwybod, ond roeddwn i'n cael y gwir bod yn dweud fy mod i'n Gymraeg. Roeddwn i'n grinio ato, ac roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n grinio ato, ac roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n grinio ato, ac roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n grinio ato, ac roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n grinio ato, ac roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n grinio ato, ac roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n grinio ato, ac roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n grinio ato, ac roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n grinio ato, ac roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n grinio ato, ac roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n grinio ato, ac roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. 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Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. Roeddwn i'n meddwl nad yw'n mynd iawn. I am willing to give Sam Costell the benefit of the doubt, because I know there's a lot of criticism of him, but I think that we need to give him time. He is still young, he's still learning his craft at test level. We really do need a game controller, and he is going to have to start learning pretty quickly how to control the game at test level. Like I said, missing those penalties, missing touch-run penalties, that's just unacceptable. Everyone does it once, doesn't they? But when you keep doing it, that's, you know, I'm sorry, that's not good enough. It does make me think, you know, should you see more Evans in this tournament, which we barely saw when he came off the bench for like a minute or two against England, you know, maybe would it be worth giving him some game time? Well, we're limited in options, you know. Hopefully, Anscombe goes to Gloucester. That brings us a bit of experience back there. You know, it would be interesting, I think Josh Adams has run his race, personally. Yeah, he's been very disappointing in the Six Nations. I've seen Cardiff fans on social media say, oh, it's the system, you know, he's not getting the best out of it because of the system, the cast that doesn't seem to play. I don't buy that. I just don't think he's been very good. No, I agree. I think he's been pretty average. And I like Josh Adams a lot, but he has been average, doesn't he? And Gareth Davies, I'm afraid. I mean, I don't know what the international future holds for him, but he has been absolutely abysmal with every play. Well, he's only played twice, hasn't he? Yeah. And he's been abysmal both times. I think, you know, Tomas has probably cemented himself as Grandmaster of the World Cup now. Yeah. And Wingers, it'd be interesting what Regan Grace does at Bath next season. Mm. You know, he's a prolific tie-scorer in Rugby League. Can he do it in the Union? Grady's... I'm still not convinced Mason Grady is a centre, but I can be convinced we can play him on the wing because he's from the Alex Cuff but George Knowles kind of school, isn't he? A bit quicker than... Well, you say that, but he... Yeah, but he did replace Tompkins, rightly so, because Tompkins had an absolute stinker. I thought Grady was fairly good yesterday. I thought he made the impact of bench. I wonder, will Gatland do with Grady White and with Jamie Roberts and turn him into that big, old, carrying, crash-ball centre's 12th? He'd have to be. Especially that with George Knowles. The picture and, you know, the centres now that we've got. I just wondered if you see Mason Grady long-term in the centre. What do you think? The thing is, yes, and he is a centre probably, but I'm not convinced by him defensively because, you know, it's something I know that Lee has said a lot on the WRAP podcast about, you know, it's very different, an awful lot. Yes. But it is different defending on the wing than it is in the centre. It's very different. And Grady's defence at the minute doesn't... You know, it's fine on the wing. It's easier to defend on the wing. Yeah, but in the centre it's harder and that needs focusing on. Yes, it is said by people who are much more knowledgeable than I am that outside centre is the hardest position to defend in rugby. Yeah, I would agree. I wouldn't describe myself as more knowledgeable than you, but certainly someone who's played outside centre a long time ago now before I made my slow migration into the forwards. I played on the wing last week in a game and when the full-back kicked the ball over my head I had to run 75 metres back up the field and every hand was in. Can I ask you this question, Dan? Is there a position where you haven't played on a rugby field? No, I've played everywhere. You have truly played every single position? I have played every single position. Both sides of Scrum, Hocker, Flyhall. Fair play. I've played every single position in a competitive game, yeah. That's good going. Only a couple of times a prop. I've played Hocker loads. I've played all the back-line positions including 9 and 10. Fair play. Not well in any of them. You've still played it though. Credit where it's due. Don't put yourself down. Show us how versatile you are. Absolutely. Food, choice, everything. That's how I describe myself. We aren't picking players who are doing anything sensibly really. We haven't got loads of choices out there. Cam Winnip has played well this tournament. Mann has played well. Wayne has played superbly. He's probably been our best player. I'm going to ask you about this now. I was going to say, because this is a Dragons party. Let's try and cover this up with a Dragons party. What have you made of the performances of the Dragons players in this year's Sixth Station? We didn't see much of the on-ground because of injury. I don't understand why Wales... Yeah, I know. I don't know why Wales didn't release him from camp though. Because when they came back here in my first off, perhaps they're hoping they'll recover to play the last couple of games. But we didn't see him again. Tye Evans, as I mentioned earlier, came off the bench for like two minutes. That's an absolute waste of time. I had no real opportunity to make an impact in that game. But Leo Dyer and Wayne Wright and Eddie Attee, they can hold their heads high after this tournament. I think they've been very, very good to those three Dragons, haven't they? I would say they're three of the best five players in Wales who had this tournament. I would say Adds can win it into that. And Adds... Oh, God. I'm falling out of my head. Alex Mann. And they've been the best five players for Wales. I agree. And Tommy Ruffell, sorry. Ruffell, yeah. Leo Dyer just continues to impress, doesn't he? He is now looking like an established international test figure. It's really great to see him kick on every three hours of the ball. He looks so dangerous. And I think Louis V Samet going across the pond to try his luck in the NFL, I think that's the best thing that could have happened to Leo because he's got those opportunities now. I just think it's really, really good. It's great to see Aaron Wayne Wright. It'd be terrific. He's been the best rugby of his career, isn't he? And it's no surprise since Gatlin came back that he's playing his best rugby. We didn't see it with Wayne Pivar because I always thought it was strange that the way he left Wayne Wright out in a colt like that. It just didn't feel right at the time. I think that was a mistake. And now he's actually starting games now because he has made his reputation as a superstar, if you like. But it was really good to see him starting games and he's done incredibly well. And OK, he doesn't have the scrummaging and ball-carrying bulk of Ryan Elias. But it's no coincidence that the line-up functions better when heavier do your soccer. I know he's not putting it all on the hook, but it's true though, isn't it? Like, we don't see any nonsense when Elliott is throwing in any overs against his targets. And Elias, for all the... Oh, he's heavier. He's a better ball-carrier. He's not breaking the game line, though. He's not Dewey Lake. Dewey Lake breaks the game line. Ryan Elias isn't that player. I would say, like, for instance, with Rio, if you'd said to someone, one of those Welsh wingers is a British lion and a huge reputation in world rugby, one of them is coming through, you wouldn't have said Rio was the... You'd have said Rio was the British lion, the guy with the reputation. Because Adams looked undercooked at best. I wonder if he's fully fit. Because we did discuss this on that. You know, is he fully fit? Because he just... Something doesn't look right with Josh Adams in this tournament. I don't know what it is, but... I just don't think it's Ed Spring, isn't it? Possibly, yeah. Who knows? But yeah, I think Rio, and Elliot, he'll be really good in this tournament. Yeah. Fair play to him. Those guys can hold their heads up high, I think, after that tournament. They've done themselves proud, and they've done a dragon's throne as well. Let's talk about Warren Gatland, then. So, I'm sure you are aware of this. After the game, Warren Gatland said he offered his resignation, but he got rejected by the WRU CEO, Abby Timothy. So Gatland was asked by a journalist if he planned to stay in the North until the 2027 World Cup in Australia. And Gatland said this, and I quote, yes, absolutely, I've made that commitment. I just said to Abby in the changing room, if you want me to resign, I'm quite happy to do that. She said, like hell, that's the last thing I want. That's really what I'm afraid of. But I can promise you, we'll go away and do this really carefully. We've already done some review stuff, and we'll work on this that we need to improve. So, Gav, this is a question for you. Should the WRU have accepted Gatland's resignation? Oh, that's a tough question. Right, probably not. But we hadn't really thought about what the next stage was. Even when we did SAC PVAC, we didn't really know what the next step was. And Gatland was, you know, we just went back to what we knew, didn't we? You know, who out there in world rugby is looking for a job that would make a difference as well as sport at the minute? You know, I know Jamie Joseph doesn't have a job, but I'm not sure he'd... That's a decent shout, though. He's a good coach. He is a good coach. Whether or not he'd be able to turn our play group into a bunch of adults, I have no idea. But other than that, someone said to me the other day, they said, well, what about Steve Tandy? Yeah, he's doing a decent job at Scotland, but, you know, that's... That's a Gareth Davis call, isn't it? You know, it's... Oh, no, it wasn't Gareth Davis, was it? Who did the 2007 World Cup? Why can't I think of anyone? Oh, it was Gareth Davis, yeah. I know what you mean, but... Yeah. I think Gatland's been quite clever about this. Oh, yeah. Because... He's killed the conversation, hasn't he? First of all, he's shown the Welsh Rugby public that he's taking responsibility. But when he came out and said, yeah, I offered him a sign. So that shows the Welsh Rugby public that he's taking responsibility. He's controlling the narrative, which is something he's talked about in his Daily Telegraph column. So he's coming out and controlling that narrative. He's said he's killing it now, he's ended that speculation. But also, he knew full well that the WRU were not going to accept his resignation. That's why he offered it. He knew they'd turn around and say no. Because they have pumped so much money now into bringing Warren Gatland back in because they sacked Pivark off, they sacked his coaching team off. Gatland got a fat contract, as we know. They haven't got the money now, the WRU, to be hiring and firing coaches like they have been. They are all in with Gatland. Whether people like it or not, we are where we are now because the WRU are not going to fire Warren Gatland. The only way he'll go from Wales is if he leaves of his own accord. If he says, I'm done, I don't want to be here no more. The WRU are not going to sack him. They are all in with Gatland. Abby Tierney has said that, Nigel Walker has said that. They've got full confidence in him. So, I can understand the criticism around Gatland, but he's going nowhere, Gatland, isn't he? And the other thing is, who is the credible alternative? This is something, again, we talked about the rap last week. Who is the credible alternative? I suppose, yeah, Jamie Johnson is one. People talk about Pat Lamb. Pat Lamb is a good coach, but he's hardly turned up to Bristol at the moment, is he? And he's on a fat contract. That Bristol team is just pure chaos. It's not what we need. Yeah. But he's on a long-term contract as well, so you're going to have to pay him off. It's not going to work. No, you know. And then we couldn't afford the top people. Ronan O'Gara, he would be a good example. Doing a great job out in France would cost an absolute metric ton of money to bring in. And would he want the job? But that's the issue. But that's the issue. You've got to pay off Gatland, and then you've got to pay off to get somebody out of a contract. This is the money that they've got. Well, they have got it, but they're not going to want to stump up again. The amount of money that's been spent in Welsh Rugby hiring and firing coaches, it's just off the charts. Isn't it? We can't keep doing this. I think Welsh Rugby has to take a proper look at itself. Now, you wouldn't remember the absolute chaos of the 80s, and it never looked at itself. It just kept doing the same thing. We now need to be looking at ourselves and saying, Right. What is in the best interest of Welsh Rugby? And the region system is not in the best interest of Welsh Rugby currently. Right. So I was going to ask you, my next question was, and I know it's not an easy question to answer, but where does Welsh Rugby go from here now? Because we know there's going to be a review. That's going to be published in June. But where do we at Welsh Rugby go from here? What changes need to happen, do you think? I appreciate it's a difficult question, but where do we go from here now? I don't think the current setup for clubs is going to benefit us for any period of time. Let's be honest. We are stretched in the cloth as far as it goes. And like any piece of material, the minute you stretch it, all the holes, all the gaps become absolutely clear. Can we afford to have a system where we are paying 100, 120 guys professional contracts to play professional rugby in Wales? Probably not. Because we are doing that, we are limiting or we are weakening the club rugby that our best players are playing. They aren't playing competitively. We have under the budget to bring in decent coaches. We have under the budget to bring in decent players. And ultimately, if we keep doing this, it will kill us long dead in the long term. We do not have the money of France. We do not have the money of England. It sounds ridiculous. I'm a Dragons fan. I want Dragons to do well. But I don't know if the full region, and even Regents, I'm not even going to say the full region because then you'll have the Cardiff fans saying oh, blah, blah, blah. I don't think regional rugby works in terms of what we're trying to do long term. What can we do about that? We can't refer it back to clubs. We already are though. I don't think clubs either. I think Regents, all that nonsense, I just think you have two sides. You have two professional sides. You can call them Regents. You can call them whatever you bloody want. But they need to be run by actual functioning adults rather than the WRU. I just think rugby is a really dark place at the moment. I honestly do not know where we go from here. It's a moment of existential crisis, Jamie. It's genuinely existential crisis because either we do something radical or we kill a national rugby dead for a generation. Yeah, and I know, look, we've been through this with Welsh rugby in the 80s and 90s. I get that. But I think what's really annoying me is we all knew that the success of Team Wales papered over the cracks for a very long time. A lot of people knew that. And the warning signs were there. The warning signs were there. And the WRU, they chose to ignore them. And now I think Welsh rugby, it's reaping what it sowed. And that's the frustrating thing. We could see this coming a mile off and people were warned. Properly invest in the pro game. If you have weak pro teams, you're going to have a weak national side. But the WRU were so top heavy. It was all about Team Wales. Our pro game got neglected. This is where we are. The 80s and 90s as well was a level playing field. So it was just about the quality of coaching for us and it was about the quality of the set-up in Wales. But now it's not a level playing field because Ireland have a professional set-up from top to bottom. England have a playing base far beyond what we've got and a budget far beyond us, as does France. Scotland have cut their cloth really sensibly. Italy have invested heavily in coaching systems and in the youth. What have we done? We've built a hotel. Last time I checked, that doesn't help you win games. I don't know if it's on, but this is tweaked today. I did, yeah. What is Scotland's hotel doing? And how are the roof folks doing for Ireland? Oh right, it's just us. Okay. It's not being run in the best interest of the game. I tell you what, I'm sure you were the same as me. When you first picked up a rugby ball, you didn't think, I want to play for X Club. You wanted to play for Wales. That's all you dreamt about playing for. You didn't dream about playing for Newport or the Dragons or whatever you call it. You dreamt about playing for Wales and you have to make that dream one that's worth living up to because otherwise, we'll lose people to the game. We'll lose people to other stuff and there's far more as well to do now. When I was a kid, there wasn't a great deal to do. So you played sport. But it's easy now. There's millions of things to do if you're a kid. I spent a large chunk of this morning on a very wet field in the middle of East Sussex watching a bunch of kids almost die in the bloody exposure. There's far more interesting things to do, those kids to do. And if your ambition is to play for a terrible team, well, it's not going to help you. There's a line in David Butcher's tweet that you just mentioned. He says, nobody ever cut their way to growth. And he's saying that whatever money is left over after everything is funded comes to the pro game. Who treats their core product like that? And it's a very good point because we know that next season, the budgets, the playing budgets for all the regions is coming down to £4.5 million. Plus marquee players. But how are you still supposed to compete against the top teams in Europe? There's 4.5 million and you're coming up against the likes of Leinster who have £15 million, say. Well, close to £15 million. You can't compete, can you? No. You cannot compete. Toulon, Montpellier, all of whom five times or three times, four times the budget of us. And the English clubs, three times, four times the budget of us. Yeah. And that's the striking thing because Warren Gatlin talks about, oh, you know, the regions, they need to start winning more games, you know, they need to improve the environment. But that's all very good. You know, that's all good and well, but you need to tell your paymasters at WRU to properly finance the pro game because they've been underfunded for so many years and this is the result of what's happened, you know. I'm not saying money is the answer to everything. Real journey help. But £4.5 million playing budget, that's just not enough. It's not enough. To compete against the best teams, you've got to win silverware. It's not enough as a gap. But imagine, and you know, I know there's people out there who aren't huge fans of Batchelor's, but imagine, right, you give more or less Cal Blanc to someone that gave Batchelor's with his business contacts and his understanding of rugby. And the same with Cardiff and wherever their money's coming from, you know, we won't question it entirely. Imagine just saying to those people, you run the club, see where you want them to, and you run them professionally and in five years' time, let's have another chat and if you're producing top-level players for us in Wales, we'll just let that go and we'll really keep our hands away from it. Yeah. Because there are people out there like David Petras who know how to make money know how to run a business and understand rugby. So maybe it's time to let those guys run the game rather than retired geography teachers. And there's no offence... You need someone... I know what you're saying, absolutely, yeah, and the amateurs and, you know, the people, the committee members and that, but I think that there'll be a need to someone like David Petras. I think if he wasn't involved with the Dragons, you'd say he is exactly the type of guy that needs to be on that WIU board because he understands rugby, he understands business, he gets it, you know. 100%. Bloke's a venture capitalist. He doesn't make decisions that are about losing money. So he knows how to make money, but he also knows how to succeed. He's got a hell of a chance with the Dragons, let's be honest, and I hope he can turn this around, but, yeah, it's going to be really interesting now because, like I said, we're in our first year of being privately owned. I think the next two to three years are really critical, because he is going to lose money at the Dragons, he will. We need to somehow stop winning more games on the field and increase our commercial turnover as well, get more people through the gates. Because if we were successful, it's a huge catch for the area we put it. You know, Cardiff have had really good crowds this season, fair play, but if Dragons were good, I generally believe we could get 7,000 people there. It's not a huge amount of people, really, and, you know, 7,000 should be doable, shouldn't it? So now they've got a direct line from Edville to Newport on the train. Yes, finally, at last. Yeah, yeah. So which connects the Glen Valleys. Just imagine a team that's winning every week that's the Welsh internationals, isn't it? You begin on the train from Edville, from Adelaide, going down and watching a Gwent team, well, yeah, you know, it doesn't make more sense than going to Cardiff or Scarlet or whatever, because you can do it really easily. No-one is going to go out of their way to see a team that's losing week in, week out. That's the problem. It's a challenge for all the regions, not just the Dragons, but it is difficult at the moment. Dragons have really got to try and somehow start winning all games and punch them above their weight. But the gloom around Welsh rugby, I just feel, it's going to be difficult now to try and attract more people through the gates, you know, because Wales aren't winning and that's where the interest among the fair weather fans, that's where it sort of dies out a bit then, doesn't it? You know, when there's a general gloom around the sport in Wales. So imagine next week that Wales football beat Finland and then get into the Euro qualifiers final and then they go to another European Championship. Well, you know, you're going to be more interested in that, aren't you? We're both football fans. We're on the goal. Football's not, you know, we've both grown up enough to understand you can have multiple sports and it's not an issue. Of course. Yeah, you know, but for some people who aren't as into sport as both of us, yeah, it's, well, I'd rather go and watch the soccer than watch the rugby. I get that. You know, I'm going to watch the Wales-South Africa game in June at Twickenham. Why are we doing that? What is the logic in doing that? I know it's a Wales thing rather than a Dragons thing. How is that going to help the game? Well, they could have it in Cardiff, couldn't they? Because of the concerts. That's why they sort of moved to Twickenham. I think it classes as South Africa's home game anyway, doesn't it? I think we're the away team, so maybe you wouldn't have been playing in Cardiff if at all. But I know what you're saying. Yeah, I just, I was trying to tell you today, I just don't know where Welsh rugby goes from here. And I don't know what needs to happen. I don't have the answers, but what I do know is there needs to be some big decisions now taken in Welsh rugby, you know, because Wood and Spoons, that'll just become a regular thing now, every six years. You know, it's very hard to see Wales being very competitive going forward over the next two to three years. And we've been spoiled, the Welsh rugby public have been spoiled by the championships and the Grand Slams, and the Welsh rugby public now, they sort of expect that, but they've got to understand now where Welsh rugby is at, and the neglect of the professional game has led us to where we are now. So, things are changing, unfortunately. We're going to go through a lot of pain. I saw us lose to Romania in wherever that was, 86, 87. You know, I can remember us losing to Samoa. I don't remember the 80s, because I was born in the 80s, but I do, I watched Wales in the 90s, and that's snowing, but I watched Wales in the 90s, and for me, that was great, because we very rarely won. It was only sort of 99 where we became competitive with Graham Henry, do you remember? Graham Henry, you know, he was sort of doing Welsh rugby. We went on our wedding runs, and we won the Invincibles or something, you know, but that's when Wales really started, yeah, that's when we really started to become competitive, but between like 1990 and like 99, it was tough watching Wales, but it's like we have gone back to the 90s again now, isn't it? Or is it as bad as the 90s where we are now? No, it feels worse. Are we heading there? It feels worse. It feels worse than the 90s? For me, because at least there was a level playing field. Ah, right, yeah. You know, it was a level playing field, because everybody had the same systems. We don't now. We haven't got an island, an island of 15 years ahead of us in building now, and they are reaping the rewards of that, absolutely reaping the rewards of it. But, you know, even Scotland, Scotland have realised what they can do, so they've done what they've done. They've gone, right, we've got two clubs, we're going to make sure they have the players we can get, we're going to bring in some foreign players who we can turn into projects, same as the Irish have done. Who are we bringing in? We aren't bringing in projects. We're bringing in old blokes who are cheap. Well, it's one less club you can afford, isn't it? It's the thing, we can't go out and sign big name players, we have to sort of go out there and see who's available. But I would say for Scotland, yes, they've got two teams, yes, they are successful, but Scotland, actually, have not had success, whereas we have, and I think if you're cutting teams, you are weakening the playing pool and the talent, so I think we need to be careful of that. But, like I said, I don't know what the answer is, I'm not sure cutting a team is a silver bullet solution to all of our problems. Because when you start talking about that, the Dragons are always in the conversation, it's us and the Ospreys. The Ospreys are there because, obviously, YLM have instigated you to merge your talks, and the fact they have no assets, that's why they always come up. But with us, we have been a weak team for a long time, and we're always going to be in that conversation, so be careful what you wish for, Oh, no, the thing is, realistic, but, you know, I think, if I started, if you give me control of the Welsh Rugby Union tomorrow, I would say, and I would just go to the clubs and say, there is only going to be two clubs in Wales, and I don't care if you say, Ospreys, Dragons, Scarlets, none of those are going to exist, we're going to have two clubs, and we're going to play out to those stadiums, and we're going to put on world-class performances, with world-class players, and you're going to win stuff. I've got no absolute, I've got no science behind that, that's just what I would say, and then I would work out how to do it afterwards, but, I think the other thing is as well, what people forget when people say, you know, cut it down to three teams, cut it down to two teams, how exactly do you do that now? Because don't forget, we have four independent businesses. Yeah, absolutely. It was different before, when the Dragons run the WRU, technically the WRU, that would have been, we would have been the easier team to cut, but that came with financial implications, and the fact that the WRU are contracted to supply four teams to URC and European competitions, so it's not as easy as people say, oh WRU, just cut the Dragons, it would have been heavy, financial repercussions, big time from it, so, what's the mechanism for closing down the team? No, I've not just seen you in general now, I've just been, you know, where people say, oh cut the teams, it's not as simple as that, there's no mechanism, no. And the thing is, I don't want, you know, I don't want to lose the Dragons, I lost the club I supported. Of course not. I lost the club I supported in the first place when we went to regions, you know, kind of, yeah, you know, kind of, within Gwent, I think we lost our club identity far more than anyone else, because, you know, me, Ospreys as well, I suppose, but, because Cardiff and St. Lesley were just allowed to continue as they wanted, really, you know, for all the, oh, it's a region, it was never a bloody region, they just co-toed to the fact that… Stardust were always St. Lesley, weren't they? Yeah. They were Cardiff Blues, they were Cardiff, and that's fine, they are, they were stand-alone clubs, they paid a million pounds to be stand-alone, didn't they, you know, they didn't play in red, white and green, but that's fine, you know, because it represented the place I'm from, but it's like, longer term, what does it look like longer term? Because the real answer, the simple answer, is they fund the clubs properly, they fund the four we've got. Yes. That's the real answer, but how realistic is it? Because where does this money come from? Fund them properly, not, not, well, not, not what Leinster have got, because that's silly, but, but give them double what they've got, give them double what they've got and see what they can do. Yeah. Squidge Rugby did a really good video where he talked about the WIU, they make the same turnovers the Irish with the WIU, very similar amounts, but the difference is the Irish properly fund the pro games, didn't they, they put a lot of money into their pathways and their pro teams, the WIU don't, they just don't put enough money in the pro game and that's, that's my personal solution, I don't want to see anything go wrong, I just want them properly funded like they always should have been. I know it's not as simple as that. It's a bit like a business thing, I'm going to make fried chicken, I'm going to sell fried chicken and every bit of fried chicken is going to be from chickens in my farm and Ireland have worked out the way to do that is a really well stocked farm whereas the Welsh Rugby Union would be like well, we've got six chickens and we could probably lose a couple of those and it'll be fine and then it's a surprise when they can't sell any fucking chicken because they haven't got the resources in the first place. It's not because Ireland have got more money, it's because they've invested the resources better. Yeah, absolutely. Let's have some good news because I think it's always good to be positive even though we always try. We do try best but we do like to discuss the big issues and we always are this but just a little bit of good news. 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