Dragons Lair: What a difference a week makes

The Dragon's Lair podcast discusses the recent news about the Dragons rugby team. David Buttress is stepping down as chairman after seven years and will remain on the board. David Wright will be the new chairman starting in July 2024. The Dragons were on the brink of being shut down last summer, but Buttress saved the club. Chris Hollis has joined the Dragons on trial until the end of the season. He is a big, hard-running center who can make a difference for the team. Interim CEO Graeme Bradbury will also be stepping down at the end of the season. Welcome to the Dragon's Lair. Hello and welcome to the Dragon's Lair podcast, your home all things Dragon's LHC and rugby in the region. I'm Jamie and joining me as always is Gavin Thomas. How are you doing, Gav? I'm all right, I'm all right. Where I live, we haven't had any water since Thursday. It's been on the national news, which hasn't been ideal. The water came back this morning just in time for me to wash away a large bit of flesh that had come off my foot after a rugby injury yesterday. Ah, yes. Do you just want to tell us about how that happened? Well, silly buggers mainly, Jamie. I was playing second row and we changed props and the opposition prop just got too much on. Big shove. The other second row's legs have gone underneath and he's just taken my foot out. It's not too bad now, the swelling's gone down, but it's taken a big lump out of my foot. Oh, dear. That sounds quite nasty, actually. How painful was it, Gav? On a scale of one to ten, how painful was that? Well, I very rarely go off the field, but I had to go off because I couldn't put any weight on it. Fortunately, because it was a kind of vets charity game type thing, one of my mates was on the sideline and he brought me a beer and I sorted it out after two of those on the sideline. I put some weight on it and I had a bottle of port. See who these magic sponges and all are. You just have a beer, I'll sort it out. I must admit, taking the dog for a walk with my family this morning was a bit of a struggle. Oh, dear. OK, so you can find us on platforms such as Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube and, of course, the Sports Social Network. And if you like what we do, please subscribe, share with your Dragons mates and leave us a good review as it all helps to grow the pod. Right, let's get into it then. Last week, Gav, was quite the week news-wise for the Dragons, wasn't it? It really was. It was a big week of news. It was very, very busy and there's so much to talk about. So, let's start with the biggest news then. Friend of the pod, because we can call him that, because he's been on the pod and he does support us. Friend of the pod, David Buttress, is stepping down as Dragons chairman after seven years in the role. So, Buttress, he's not going to go far. He will remain on the Dragons board as a non-executive director and a major part of the ownership team. Following David's appointment as CEO of OVO Energy, David has decided that now is the right time for the club to go forward and the new chairmanship. And Dragons then announced that board member and co-owner, David Wright, will be the club's new chairman from 1st July 2024. So, what did David Buttress say then? Well, he said, It's been a great privilege to be chairman over the last seven seasons, but taking into consideration my other new commitments, this is the right time for us to make this decision. I would stress to our supporters, players and staff that my commitment and passions to rugby in Gwent and Dragons remains as steadfast as ever and I will continue to be a passionate owner. My congratulations to David Wright. I can think of no better person as he leads us as our new chairman and takes the club into the next exciting chapter of Welsh rugby. So Gav, when it was announced that David Buttress was stepping down as chairman, did it surprise you at all or did it feel inevitable once he took that role with OVO Energy? You know, he's taken a high profile job with a high profile company and he's a hands-on bloke and I just don't see how he could have remained the CEO of Dragons because when he was doing the consultancy stuff that he'd previously been doing, yeah, that makes sense, but this is different. You know, this is a high profile company, cost of living crisis, so energy companies are getting a bit of a battering in the public eye, so I think it's important that he gives all the time to that job, you know, and it'll be well paid, I imagine. So it makes sense. It's sad because, you know, without sounding like too much of a home guy team, he's been a good CEO for the club, but he's also, he's been very good with the pod as well, you know, so it's a Seassium stand down. You know, he likes all our social media stuff, he amplifies us and has been on the pod, so I think we've, you know, it's a shame to see him go, but I'm sure we'll have a similar relationship with the new boards as well. Yeah, fingers crossed. Last week as well, David Buttress also revealed that the Dragons were on the brink of being shut down last summer, so this is what he said, I will never forget the Tuesday last July at 6pm when I finished a call with the WRU where they had rejected our deal. I was preparing to go on the Thursday to ask for my letter to tell the players and the guys of Romney Parade that we had failed to buy the club and it was going to be no more. It was that close that I didn't sleep that night at all. I wrote an email to the WRU around 3am in the morning, although I sent it at 7am with a load of ideas about how we could restructure the deal to get resurrected to save the club. Luckily that did the trick and we jumped on the call that Wednesday to pull that deal back to life and the rest is history. I was afraid to say that everyone associated with the Dragons owes David Buttress a huge debt of gratitude to Nick because he has saved professional rugby in front of us. Without David Buttress, we would no longer exist. Yeah, and you can't really put any kind of buts ifs or whatever about that, that's the case. He fronted up, he did what needed to be done and the club still exists as a result. It takes a lot of passion and drive because, let's be honest, I don't think he's made any money out of it, has he? I don't think so. He put his own money into it because of his love for the club, not because of any other reason. He's a Gwent bloke, grew up in Newport, never failed, he's absolutely Dragons through and through. Yeah, we've got a big thank you for David Buttress and I know that some people suggest we're very much on his side and so we bloody should be because we've got a club we should have in. Exactly, and I would also argue as well, he saved professional sport in Newport because if the Dragons went under, that would have had big repercussions for Newport County of course. They couldn't afford to buy Rodney Parade and where would they have gone? You know, Rodney Parade would have probably been sold off and demolished and County would have been homeless. So they can't go back over Spitty because that is not fit for any pro sport. It's fine for Newport IFC and the Newport City Football Club but it's just not suitable for professional teams. So yeah, I think Dragons and Newport County have got a lot to be thankful for, that David Buttress managed to save and resurrect this deal, haven't they? And he's a businessman, you know, the restructuring would have been based on some business ideas not anything else. Yeah, and also just to say as well, we have reached out to David Wright. We've emailed him a thanks to David Buttress, he put us through to him and we are waiting back on an answer. So we would like to get David Wright on this pod, the new chairman, just to have a chat about him. So we'll see what happens there, but yeah, fingers crossed he will be able to join us at some point. And then the Dragons also announced their interim CEO, Graeme Bradbury, he'll be stepping down at the end of the season. So David Buttress said, Graeme was careful in bringing the current ownership group together and diligently worked alongside myself to ensure that we could achieve the goal of taking Dragons RFC back into private hands from WRU ownership. So thank you to Graeme for all his hard work. Yeah, I know Graeme personally, I know he worked really hard in getting that deal done. So yeah, fair play to him and all the best for Graeme's next endeavours, whatever he does next. I know he'll be on the terraces anyway, Graeme, I know that, so I'll probably see him around the Ronnie crate. But yeah, big, big changes at the top. So that was the biggest news of the week then. Dragons also announced some new sign-ins and first up is Chris Hollis. So Chris Hollis has joined the Dragons on trial until the end of the season. Hollis played youth rugby for the Bulls before featuring for the Kings, Reekers and Lions before heading to the Stormers. He didn't have a lot of game time at the Stormers, I think he only played like an exhibition game for them. He just hasn't managed to break into their team. I mean, they have got a lot of depth in the Stormers, but yeah, the 25-year-old who can play centre and wing has headed to Ronnie Braid on a short-term contract after a spell with the Stormers and he could even face his old club this Friday night. Now, Gareth, we don't know much about Chris Hollis, I've never seen him play, but a big Bull carrier in South Africa, so he's pretty good, isn't he? Yeah, I asked my Stormers supporting mate who I played with yesterday if he'd heard of him and he's had no idea who he is, so clearly he's not a big name, but of the clips I've seen from playing for Cheetahs and Greakers and that, he looks like what we need. He's just a big, hard-running centre and we've talked about the need for that. We've talked about the need for somebody who's just going to front up and attack in defence in the backs and was he 6'3 and he can shift as well. The videos I've seen, he's got a bit of gas to him, so yeah, I'm happy with that and you've talked about there being a money ball signing and I think that's exactly what it is, isn't it? It's low risk, but if it pays off, we're going to actually bring someone in who's going to make a difference to the club at very low cost, I imagine. I don't think this is a big name signing or big money signing, but it's probably for Chris Hollis, it's a chance for him to earn a bit of decent money and play a bit of regular rugby and press. It's bringing us what we need, so I'm pleased with that. And it is very low risk because it's to the end of the season, he's on trial, same as Stephie was. If it works out, great, then the Dragons will extend his contract and we've got another big, powerful option on the wing. It does sound like he is going to be playing on the wing, reading Dave Flanagan's comments. He says, we see him as a wing and if it goes to plan, then he could be a physical option at XI next year, along with Jarrod, Rosser and Harry Rees-Meldon. So they're looking at him as a winger, but then he can step into the centre, a bit like Theo Tomkinson, I guess, because we expect Theo to be the leader, so maybe Chris Hollis is going to be the replacement for Theo Tomkinson. But it is low risk. If it doesn't work out, that's fine, he goes at the end of the season, he's got three games to impress. If it does, then great, it's another option. He's talked about someone having big, powerful, strong running backs, so I'm really interested to see how he goes. He should start against the Stormers on Friday, it's a good start for him, so he's going to want to impress, isn't he? Of course. Yeah, so we look forward to seeing him in action. Then signing number two, I like this one. I like all of them, to be fair, but I quite like this, because Braggans have signed tough and uncompromising Tonga back rower Solomon Funaki to add to the ball-carrying options next season. A 30-year-old who specialises in underweight, but can play across the back row, will arrive this summer for Monaco Pacifica, where Stephen Jones is now backs coach, of course, in Super Rugby. Now, I've got to be honest, Gav, I haven't watched a lot of Super Rugby this year, but this is the kind of guy we need. I've seen him play a couple of times, I've watched Super Rugby most weekends, and he's a handful, he's an absolute handful. There's not a lot of technique to him, there's not a lot of grace, he's just big and he runs hard. And I've seen people saying, I don't really understand why we get him, we've got lots of back rowers. Well, he's an upgrade on most of what we've got, is my take of what I've seen of him. He hits racks hard, he carries hard, and his tackling is a bit self-enema, so he is a card risk, I'm not going to pretend he isn't, but he brings an edge, and we lack an edge, if I'm honest. Certainly. And for me, I would play him at eight, and I'd play Wano at six. And then you've got physicality, and you could play Kane at seven, and then you've just got a back row there, which we're balanced, but all of them can do the grunt work. It's no criticism of Sean Nortonsdale, or Oli, or anyone else, but you've got three players there who are going to get us over the game now, and we've looked physically underwhelming, haven't we? We have indeed, yeah. People say we don't need another back row, but I think what people forget is, we lose Arranway, we lose Tate Martian to Wales, I don't see Dan Lyddiup being around next season, this could very well be his last season. He's not really pulled up any trees, has he, this season for us? No, he's been okay, he's been okay, but I think age has finally caught up with him. He is a Dragons legend, he's a hell of a player, but age catches up with all of us, can't it? So I think we're not seeing the best of Dan Lyddiup. I think Ospreay's had the best of Dan Lyddiup, really. We had him good in our first spell, but he played his best rugby while he was at the Ospreys. He's a good signing, that's exactly what we need, we need power, we need brunt, and this guy provides it. And he's been playing for Moana Pacifica, and like I say, you've not seen him play a bit. They are quite blunt instruments, their forwards run hard and then the backs run hard, but he's instrumental in our style of play. I think what we're seeing now is a change, will be a change in the style of play, I would hope, because at the minute we've worked out we can't run through people, so we're trying to run round people, but the problem with that is you can't do that, it's not under tens rugby, you can't give it to the quick lad who's going to run in. And this will just give us a bit of penetration, so we can then build phases beyond the game line, which we haven't been doing. Yeah, couldn't agree more, I think that's a very good signing. So that was signing number two. Signing number three, now this is probably, I would say, the biggest name signing, this was the one that was most surprising. So, signing number three is Australian centre Harry Wilson. The 23-year-old who can play in the back three will arrive after completing the Super Rugby campaign with the Warliters. Wilson, whose father was former Australian captain and World Cup winner David, he will be providing a physical option at 13 along with up-and-coming Joel Westworth. This is one of those utility guys who can play in the back three, play in the centre, but he is being seen as a centre. There was a lot of surprise, when this signing was announced, there was a lot of surprise down under with Australian commentators and pundits, surprised that Warliters let him go. Obviously, he's highly rated down there, so what did you think of this signing, Gareth? Yeah, another player I've seen a bit of this season watching Super Rugby, and a good player, and he's not just a lump, he is a lump, but he's not just a lump, he's got lovely hands, really kind of accurate passer, real vision, but also quite difficult when he's moving quickly to stop. And yeah, I've read online that lots of Australian pundits are really surprised, because he's been talked about as a potential squad member for Australia. Indeed, yeah. This is a pretty big cook for the Dragons, isn't it? Yeah, it's shown a bit of ambition, but again, it's kind of low risk, isn't it, because I've no doubt he's coming at the price tag, but not as much as if you try getting a Welsh international centre. Yeah, absolutely. If you try to sign Owen Watkin, I know we wouldn't, but I'm just using him as an example. Owen Watkin probably comes at twice the cost of Harry Wilson. And the difference is, he's going to be available all season, whereas when you sign Welsh internationals, you're going to lose them. He's probably, from what I've seen, a better player. But it's an interesting signing, isn't it? I think Dragons have pulled off a bit of a cooler, because this isn't a big name player, but like you said, he's been talked about being part of the Australian squad, and he was highly rated with a lot of fans and pundits. So I think Dragons have done very good work there. The fact that he's able to play in many different positions, versatility is important, as we know in rugby now. So, yeah, very happy with that one. And then signing number four is another Australian, and a familiar face, especially for you, a Scarlet supporter. So Steve Cummins, remember him, Dav? I do, yes. Yes, the 32-year-old who, of course, worked with Dave Flanagan at the Scarlets. Six foot seven. Six foot seven lot. 198 kilos, yeah. Will arrive from Poe in the top 14, and he's had two spells in super rugby with the Melbourne Rebels. He impressed with the Scarlets when he made 46 appearances for them over three campaigns, helping them to the final of the Pro 14 in 2018, which, of course, they won, wasn't it? I think it was that final against Munster. So head coach, Dave Flanagan said, Cummins will add experience to our pack and depth to our second row resources. He's a big man, a presence in any team, and has massive leadership skills that will benefit the squad. So, Gav, with the signings now we'll be talking about, have you noticed there's a pattern developing here? Bulk. Yeah. There is a clear emphasis on bulk and power. The club have recognised that, and there will be more signings to come, and you'll notice again, we're not signing small guys. We're signing big, powerful names. Harry Wilson's probably the smallest of them, at six foot two and 103 kg, I think. Yeah. But what do you make of that one, Steve Cummins? You're 32, he's no spring chicken, but he's got a good couple of years. He has that leadership and experience, which we, well, how many times have we talked about leadership on the pod over the season, you know? But he's also, and I hate it for this, but we've needed someone with a bit of dog in the second row. Yes. And he's, you know, that's, he's not a particularly cultured player, because he was kind of cover for Ty Boone in that Scarlets team, wasn't he? And where Ty Boone was an all-rounder, Steve Cummins was just hit-wrecks, hit-wrecks, carry, hit-wrecks. That's okay, that's good. Yeah, but that's what we've been making, isn't it? And there's no criticism of George Knott or, you know, Ben Carter developing, but Ben Carter's going to develop alongside that, isn't he? You know, Ben Carter's going to develop alongside the player. Who's just going to do his job 100% of the time at a quality level. So, you know, for me, it's a developmental select, yeah. And then, let's be honest, he's an upgrade on Matthew Screech. No criticism, Matthew Screech and George Knott, but he's an upgrade. And all those players, with the exception of Hawley, who we don't know about yet, is an upgrade on what we've got in those positions. No, I agree. Yeah, I think it's a savvy sign. And I don't think he's had much game time for Poe, but that's a good thing. So he'll come to us fresh. You know, he's not coming to us battered, bruised and tired. He'll come to us fresh. And, you know, it's the same with Chris Horlice. These guys want game time, you know, and we can provide that for them. So, yeah, it's all very encouraging. So, to recap then, the Dragons so far, new signings, they've signed Chris Horlice, Solomon Fudaki, Harry Wilson and Steve Cummings. So are you happy with the recruitment so far, Gav? Oh, 100%. It's, you know, think of all the times we've talked about this. It's exactly what we need, isn't it? We've talked about backs who can break the game line. We've talked about forwards with a bit of bulk and a bit of strength. And that's what we've done. That's what we've done. We've bought those players. We've, you know, we've bought big guys. We've bought guys with a bit of leadership quality. All the things we've been saying all season. Well, of course, I'm super happy. I'd like to see another option at 10. Yes. I'd like to see another option in the front row. Not Hucker, but a prop. Yeah. To be honest, we could do with two new props. But other than that, I'm happy with that. Yeah. I mean, I do have a feeling that Dimitri Ahit might be extending his deal. You know, that could be one option. But yeah, you are right. I think a couple of front rowers now are needed, isn't it? We could do with another loose as well. You know, if Dimitri stays for a season, that's fine. That's coverage of type. But we could do with coverage of loose. Because we have not competed at prop, at scrum time. And you don't, it's not solely the work of the props. But our props are getting schooled, you know. It's all right if Barrel's in there. Yeah, we've missed him, haven't we, since his entry. You know, Martinez has been fine. He's been all right. Yeah. He's been all right. He's been fine. But then, you know, you are in the long grass a bit then, aren't you, without those guys? Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Hopefully, a couple of scrummaging props are on the way. But they don't come cheap either, Gav, do they? So it's a case of who's out there? Who can we get with our budget? There's not many of them out there either, is there? That's the problem. No. You know, they are there. But most of them are in the French Second Division, where they could earn more money. Or, you know, they're in Georgia. Yeah. No, you're right. It's going to be interesting seeing how many more signings have been announced, because Dave Flanagan said he wanted seven. That's the target. So far, we've announced four. We may have another back-thrower from Cardiff. Keep your eyes peeled on that. I won't mention any names, but that's another signing. And then, hopefully, a ten and a scrummaging prop. But, yeah, so, so far, so good, Gav. We're happy with the recruitment, aren't we? Oh, God, yeah. It remains to be seen who's leaving the club. Because when new people come in, you instantly figure, well, who's leaving? And I think we've got a fair idea now who's leaving. We know Max Clarke is going to leave. Theo Tomkinson's going to leave. Aki Salui's going to leave. But we know Bertrand who is leaving, so. Sean Lonsdale, probably, I've heard. I think so. Yeah. I think so, too. Yeah. But they haven't released any names as to who's leaving the club, but we've got a fair idea. Leon, are there any names that... Now, Leon's not resigned yet, has he? Or is he? No, he hasn't. So, it remains to be seen what's happening with Leon Brown. I think it'll go two ways. I think he'll either stay with us, but on a reduced contract, or reduced terms. Or they'll just say, thank you, and we'll have to do part company. Because he just barely claims for staff, you know. It's difficult when we're Leon. He's a luxury. Yeah. And we don't need luxury. We need guys in the trenches regularly. It's a shame, because I'm a big fan of Leon. I think he has so much potential, but he's just injured all the time. And same with Ollie as well. We can't really afford to be carrying these guys anymore. I know they're great boys, but... I carry Keddie as well. You know, and I like Harry Keddie a lot. But he's never really kicked on, and there's been injuries that have gone the way for him, hasn't there? They aren't bad players, by any stretch of the imagination. Oh, no. They're good players, but they're no good if they're not on the team, because of injuries. It's not their quality that's the question mark. It's their durability. That's the issue, it's their durability. Yeah. Free quality players, but all of whom have been blighted by injuries. Well, we're waiting to see who's on the list of players leaving, but I think most fans can take a guess at who's leaving. Right then. In other news... Yep, there's still more news to go. Dragons revealed their new CEO. So we talked about Graham Bradbury leaving, and they've announced that Rhys Blunford has been the club's new Chief Executive Officer from Cardiff, of course. So, Rhys Bruce will only play to take up the post ahead of next season, following a four-year spell as Chief Operating Officer at Cardiff Rugby. Rhys has worked as General Manager, Commercial Manager, and Head of Sales and Marketing during his time with Cardiff Rugby. So, Rhys Blunford says... I'm absolutely thrilled to be joining the Dragons as CEO, having engaged with all three owners extensively. I am extremely excited about their energy, enthusiasm, and commitment to make the Dragons as good as they possibly can be. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Cardiff for the past four years and look ahead to a thriving future with the Dragons, where I hope to make a real impact across all departments of the organisation. Now, the first thing to say about this is that we have reached out to Rhys, and I'm pleased to say that he will be joining us on the pod once he's officially started his new role, which is great because I'd love to hear more about him and what his plans are for the club. So, that'll be good. We'll have to have a chat to him, won't we? This seems like a really good pick-up because Rhys Blunford is highly regarded right across Welsh Rugby, following his impressive work down at Cardiff. This is another positive off-field appointment for the Dragons, isn't it? Yeah, 100%. And that's what we need to be doing, isn't it? We need to be making these steps forward. And I think Dragons, say play to them as an organisation this week, because everybody's been a bit down in the doldrums, and we've all been looking at the table thinking, Christ, this has been a bit of a slog. And they've done really sensibly. They've gone out, they've signed four players, and they've done that well. The social media stuff has been really good as well. Just a bunch of videos they've used. And then they've also made good ownership. They've sorted Aaron Quick, they've sorted CEO. It just shows a bit of positivity. There's light at the end of the tunnel. Please follow us. Yeah, because it does feel like there's a plan in place now. There's an actual strategy. And that hasn't happened at the Dragons. It's no secret it has been a poorly run club for many, many years, way before David Butcher's gone involved. But it does feel like there's good people in charge. It feels like we're in the right hands, and there is a plan and strategy going forward. And look, I know we've had so many false storms as Dragons supporters. We have been here before, but it just feels positive at the moment, doesn't it? It feels like we're making all the right moves. I want to see coaches now. That's the next thing. I want a defence coach named... I want to see what the coaching set up is for next year. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, and that will be announced in due course. We know we're having a new defence coach. There is going to be an overhaul of the coaching team. We expect Luke Narroway and Effin Davis to be leaving the club. And I think it's about time. I appreciate the work they've done at the Dragons, but we have to remember this was Dean Bryant's coaching team. So they've been here a fair while now, and Dye needs to have his own men. And he needs to have an imprint on what's happening. And Effin, particularly, he's a Vale boy. You know, I want him to do well, but it's not done what we've needed to do, is it? And we've talked about the players looking undercoached. And someone has to take responsibility for that. No, I agree. It'd be very interesting to see what our new coaching team is going to look like. So, yeah, that caps off a very impressive week of news. Yeah, fair play to the club. You know, like you said, the announcement videos as well for the new sign-ins are great. And I know Bristol Bears started this trend, and they have, like, you know, taken, like, film clips and then, you know, jazzed them up and then just, you know. How they've done it, it's really good. A lot of clubs do it now, but we are getting better at it, I think. I think we're really good at it. Yeah, and we'll always be better than Ospreys at social media. Who are the worst at the social media? Oh, they've picked up now, in fairness. They never used to be very good, but, yeah, I think we've all started to do these videos now. It's good fun. People like it. It gets people talking, doesn't it? Yeah, and that's, you know, that's important, isn't it? Yeah. I did enjoy seeing fans of other regions, you know, when we sent out our sign-ins, say, well, where's our signers? They tag in, like, you know, Ospreys, or they tag in Scarlets. Oh, look, a Dragons announced a sign-in. Where's our signers? Well, sort your own shit out, lads, isn't it, Jeremy? Don't worry about us. Worry about your own team. I think Scarlets will be, you know, I'm surprised I haven't had a phone call, a phone number turning up recently. Do fancy playing for us? Because they seem to be struggling. And Scarlets, Dwayne Peel, if you're listening, I would be open to it. I'm only available once a month, though. So, you know, I'm available, boys, if you need me. Right, in the last bit of news, this is the final bit of news. Dragons have exploited a loophole to ensure Ben Carter was banned for one game instead of three games after his red card against Conor. So, Carter was given a three-match suspension due to his good disciplinary record and apology, and a further game is being taken off when he completes this World Rugby Coaching Intervention Programme, it's called, or something. That's cool. Yeah, pretty much. But the URC included the Welsh Premiership between Newport and Ebbw Vale in his suspension, despite the fact that Ben Carter hasn't played for the Black and Ambulance since January 2020. So, Carter will return to the Ospreys match in Swansea on the 18th of May. I'll just point out as well, Dragons are not the only team to do this. Cardiff did it recently with Brady Lowe. They included a Cardiff RFC game against Newport in the suspension, and Scarlets have done it with a couple of their players, including a friendly for John Williams, and Lazada, the Argentinian, but they've already included a Chelsea game. So, we're not the only club to do it. It is a little bit naughty, but yeah, we're not going to have Ben Carter until the Ospreys game. Because we haven't really chatted about the Conor game, but what did you make of that red card? Because I spoke about this on that, and I could see why it was a red card, letter to the Lord, you know, show it to the head, they get it. But my argument was, he's running at him so quick, that Ben Carter just didn't have time to adjust his tackle. Because when you watch it in real time, it's really difficult for a big man to adjust his tackle. I felt it's a little bit unlucky. I can't remember. It was an England play that was sent off against Argentina. I can't remember what it was. And it was exactly the same position, exactly the same thing. All happened. And at the time I said that was a red, and I still feel it was a red. Because, yeah, it was all too low. But he is responsible for, you know, for managing his body position. And it was too high. And it hit him in the head. It's that with the low stuff. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? When you watch it in slow-mo, it looks really bad, you know, slow it down to three straight. But when you watch it at real time, Jennings is coming at him at full speed, you know, and Alex Cuthbert said, well, what else is Ben Carter meant to do there then? You know, I know you can say, well, tackle lower. But when it happens so quickly, so I do feel a little bit for Carter. I'm not saying it wasn't a red card, but I understand. His body position was wrong enough for me. Yeah, and I'm a terrible tackler. So, you know, I'm not saying this from a position of strength. But the problem was, he was up. He wasn't just like in a high position. He was absolutely upright. And it's easy for me to say this because I never bloody do it. But he could have taken a few steps back and re-sorted himself and nailed him. But instead, all he's done is, you know, it was only going to end up like that. So a huge amount of sympathies in the international second row. He needs to be sorting out his body height in those situations. Yeah, I guess it's just difficult, isn't it? So there's a bit of mitigation, I suppose. But yeah, it was always the minute the ref has gone, you know, to the box. And it was done for me. And I know, you know, you said that the ref had a pole game, that Conant was offside a lot. I watched her at home. I wasn't picking that up as much. I did think he didn't police a breakdown zone moles particularly well, but also both sides. There's one Conant mole that went on for about 25 minutes, it felt like. And they kept reshifting their body position where every time a Dragon player tried moving, they were like, no, no. Watching in the stands though, you could see they were offside. There was more so in the second half, I'd say in the last week, you could just see it. They were living offside. But yeah, it is what it is now. We got a losing bonus point out of it. But it felt like another missed opportunity. And that red card changed the game because we had Conant on the ropes at that point. I think it was 24 or so. They were starting to get rattled and we was on top. But then that red card, it changed everything. And that's the most disappointing thing as well. You know? But yes, anyway, that's that done. So then it's time for a Gwent rugby roundup. And there was a Gwent derby on Saturday. And it wasn't such a good afternoon for Evertsdale, was it Gareth? It was not, no. They played Newport at Newport in the Premiership semi-final. And Newport can win 48-13 winners, which takes them into the Premiership final versus Llandavery. And clearly, I want Evertsdale to win. They're my team. But Newport and Llandavery have been the best two teams in the Premiership all season. And it's fitting that they play each other. This is the right final, isn't it? But they've both been the best teams in the Premiership by country, my own opinion. 100%, yeah. And Newport beat Llandavery last time they played. I think it's one winnings. So it's shaping up to be a good final. And they're going to be amongst the strongest teams in the EDC as well. It'll be interesting to see how Cardiff and some of the other teams strengthen in that. But I really do think Newport are a strong, well-coached side, play good rugby, really aggressive attack in rugby. Llandavery, good in the set-piece. You know, it's going to be a great final. Yeah, just to add, Joe Westwood, Dragons centre, was named man of the match, scored a hat-trick. And look, I saw a few Ebbw Vale fans who were moaning about the fact that Newport used a lot of Dragons players. But actually, they've been using Dragons players all season. Joe Westwood, Shea Hove have been regulars in that team. There were eight contracted Dragons players playing in the game. Five for Dragons, three for Ebbw Vale. Yeah. But it's a flimsy excuse when these boys have been playing all season. They didn't just suddenly bring them straight into this game. You know, they have been regulars in this side. It wasn't like Aaron Wainwright was suddenly in black and amber, was it? Do you remember Schleffy when they played Pontypool in that sort of promotional play-off? And that's what they did. They brought a load of Scarlett boys in for that. That was a bit naughty. But on this occasion, I don't see anything wrong with it. Joe Westwood and Shea Hove have played 15 games each for Newport. And have played two or three for Dragons. And Ladman has been great since he's come out of retirement. He's been on the pod as well, of course. You're right, they are very well coached. They've had a very good season. And it benefits the Dragons as well because these boys are getting game time. Well, it shows you that of the four sides in the semi-finals, two are Dragons' region sides. So yeah, it's good. No, it is very good. So moving down the pyramid to the Championship, only the one game, and that was won by Bargoed, who beat Bedouin 59-20 to 1. Clearly the Championship is going to look very different next season. And then if we go into Division 1, only one game there. Bryn Mawr topped the table against Tallowine, who was second. Bryn Mawr won 16-11. So the promoted teams, all Gwent sides, Bryn Mawr, Tallowine and NSD, all go up from Division 1 into the new formed Championship. Well, it'll be Championship, Premiership combined, I imagine. And then Riska were relegated for a poor season for Riska. Into Division 2, a number of games there. Cwmbran lost 26-36 at home to Absolutely Reblina Gwent. Gondi Fyfe beat Phil Harries 34-20. And Newport High School Old Boys beat Kylian 31-17. Newport High School Old Boys Ableri Blina Gwent will be going up. And Oakdale and Killian are going the opposite direction. In the Division 3, Abercawn beat Fleur Delis 27, 20 points to 7. And Abercawn added Jason Tovey to their coaching lineup next season. He won't need to lie. Abercawn have? Yes. Well, I didn't see that. Yeah, I thought... But you've seen the NSD, has he? So he's at NSD now, Jason Tovey. I might well have mistaken that, but I'm sure I read that on the Abercawn website. I'll check on that. I might be entirely wrong. It won't be the first time. And... OK, yeah. And Blina have beaten Rumney 29-0. Going up are Blina and Abercawn. And I know you're right, is NSD. Ignore me. I've just read my own notes. I was going to say, OK. Abercawn have signed someone else, but it's, yeah. Confusion reigns in the Thomas household today, so it's my mistake. And RTB, Everville and Llanellaf are going down the other way. So not great for the side I can see from my mother's house, but good for Blina and Abercawn, who are going up. Betis lost 19-26 at home to Whitehead in Division 4. Newpanteg beat Gwyneddfeyd 30 points to 25. And Newport Saracens won, quite convincingly, 87-10 against Havard Aranis. And Saracens and Newpanteg are going up. Blackwood Stars and Havard Aranis are going down in Division 4. Division 5, Ford's side won 63-15 against a relegated Westmoreland. Pontyn Ffraith and Holybush are the sides going up from there. And then into Division 6, Derry beat Cwmcarn United 66-10. And Hartridge beat Stradigan Ironsides 32-23, where it wasn't quite enough for Hartridge. They needed... At the last minute, they were pipped for a motion by Stradigan Ironsides to go up with Derry. So there's quite... That's the end of the season for most clubs now. We've seen New Stradigan have been expelled from Division 4. And we'll be playing in Division 6 next season for failure to... Grave, who does rock and roll, is a New Stradigan boy, and he's saying he's trying to get himself fit to play for next season. And has asked if I would offer my services. So, you know, clearly retired 50-odd-year-old players are exactly what New Stradigan needs. But I have said I will play for them if required. Nice one. Yeah. Always sad to hear that. Can't say when clubs, you know, are going to be able to play for them. Always sad to hear that. Can't say when clubs, you know, can't raise enough players to form a team. You know, it seems to be a growing trend in Welsh rugby, particularly in the community game, isn't it? Not just Welsh rugby. It's happening all the... You know, I've played rugby in Sussex, where I lived for 17 years. And when I turned up, like teams like Hove, which is over in Brighton, were running five teams, six teams. They're now running three. You know, teams are contracting, and it's happening everywhere. When teams like Stradiga travel, you know, new Stradiga, on game sides out, it's sad, because they are mainstays of the community game. Yeah. I see a lot of people saying that we've got too many rugby clubs in Wales. Do you buy that argument? Is that a fair point to say there's just too many rugby clubs in Wales? Well, you know, kind of in terms of statistics, yeah, you could say that. But think about it. You know, we both grew up in the Valleys, and your community had a side. So, you know, I grew up in Ebbw Vale. Ebbw Vale is 16,000 people. There were four clubs in Ebbw Vale. There's Ebbw Vale, the town club. There's RTBs, which covered the bit of Ebbw Vale I'm from. There's Bullfoot, which covered the other side of the Valley. And Cwm, which covered the bottom end of the Valley. You know, four clubs in the town. And it was great. And if you were from Cwm, you played for Cwm. And if you were from town or from Hilltop, you played for RTB. And if you were from Bullfoot or Arthur, you played for Bullfoot. It just made sense. Now Cwm has disappeared. So, you know, could you... But what would you do? Would you just have two clubs in Ebbw Vale? I have the same argument. I, you know, it's a Gwent thing. I live in a town of 80,000 people. There's a big club, Hirstons and Bexhill, who I represented at Vetside yesterday, and my club, St Leonard's. And the argument is, well, there's only one town, and there should only be one team in the club, or in the town. But if this was Wales, there'd be about seven or eight clubs. There'd be one for each of it. And that's what, you know, who do you play for? But the problem is, I think loyalty has come into an end, hasn't it? Because, you know, you just played for the club nearest to you. And now, and Welsh rugby has been its own worst enemy at community level. Because, you know, and I know this for a fact, because I was, you know, I've been told by boys who are playing at that level, people as far down as Division 4 are getting money for playing. That's not right. And, you know. Sorry, but that's not right. And clubs are not able to do that now. No. And now, you know, and it's happened the last couple of years, people saying, well, are you going to pay? Can you pay us? And I'm like, of course not. No, it shouldn't be happening. That should not be stamped out. Then we won't play. Even down in Division 5 and 6, people who are, you know, they're not getting paid, but they're getting stashed and they aren't paying subs. I pay to play. Yeah. I pay every week to play rugby. I pay 10 quid every week to get my head kicked in. Yeah. To hit your foot. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what should be happening down in that community. But people don't want to do that anymore. There's not that loyalty. And there are clubs, and I'm sure people who are listening could tell me clubs who've thrown money about really low down the pyramid. Oh, it's happening. Yeah. It still happens. Yeah. It's not sustainable, is it? No. No, it's not. Yeah. Because I don't know what it's, you know, I've not been in Wales for a long time, but I'm sure people listening can tell me, are people still drinking in the clubhouses? Because you see less and less in English rugby. People will play, younger lads particularly will play. And, you know, I'll always stop and have two beers because, you know, that's the minimum for me after a game because it's polite. But there's young lads who'll just bugger off. Yeah. Well, it's a shame, isn't it? I wonder if that's happening in clubhouses in Wales as well. Is that part of it? That'd be interesting to know, wouldn't it? Maybe some people can get in touch with us and let us know. Yeah, you know, if you play in the community game, let us know what it's like in the community. And we still want community clubs on. Yeah, we do, yeah. We'll do a big push for that next season. Yeah, if you play or coach a community club, come on, talk to us. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Good stuff. OK, thank you for that then, Gavin. Let's look ahead to Friday night. So, Dragons versus Stormers. The last game of Bronwy Parade this season for the Dragons. It's a 7.35 kick-off. The game is live on BBC2 Wales and Premier Sports. Unfortunately for the Dragons, though, it does look like they're going to be sending a fully loaded squad down. So, Stormers head coach John Thompson said this, We are taking our spring box. This will be a different mindset than the first tour. It's, I like this, full metal jacket, like so. It's full metal jacket to try and win every game. Now, Gavin, there are no easy games in the URC, as we know, but this is another tough game coming up for the Dragons on Friday, especially if they're coming down here fully loaded, isn't it? Well, sorry, not to go mad. Yeah, Jason Tovey is taking on youth coaching at Abercawn. I knew I hadn't gone mad. You've come back to that, haven't you? Yeah, no, so I was just, OK, that's fine. Sorry. And yes, going back to Stormers. Yeah, I saw the Stormers. Sorry, I knew I hadn't gone mad. OK, no, that's fine. He won't need his passport to go to Abercawn. He'll be fine. I'll keep you away from the dock. Yeah, I did see the Stormers coach saying that in the week. I was like, oh, great. That's great. And my Stormers mate, Ash, who I played with yesterday, he said, oh, yeah, yeah, we're coming fully loaded. I was like, oh, that's handy. Yeah, the problem for the Dragons is they're playing teams who are chasing our top eight. So obviously, we played Connacht. Their intention was to come down here and get a bonus point, which a bonus point wins. Unfortunately, they did. Stormers are going to have the same mindset. Every team that's going to be targeting wins against us, and this is where Dragons really need to step up. And we did against Connacht, to be fair. Yeah, there was the same old errors that we've talked about. That's still happening. The coaches really do need to get a grip on these players making errors all the time. I don't know whether it's coaching or players, but it's got to be stamped out. A fully loaded Stormers is a step up from Connacht, though, isn't it? Oh, God, yeah. Even a fully loaded Connacht, it is a significant step up. Yeah. A return to Ronnie Parade for Brock Harris? That'd be nice to see, wouldn't it? It's his testimony. He's having, like, a dinner. Yes, I did see that, yeah. Yeah, I can't go to it, but I'd love to have gone. But, yeah, it's great to see Brock, isn't it? Well, he's well loved, isn't he? You know, he's well loved. Oh, he's a legend. Yeah, we are trying to get Brock Harris on this pod, by the way. But it's very, very difficult. Because let's just say that Brock is not very responsive to messages. Let's just put it that way. But we are trying. He's considerably more elusive in real life than he was on the pitch. Yes, I'd love to get Brock on the pod. We are trying. But, yeah, that's a work in progress, shall we say. So, yeah, it's going to be a difficult game. Friday Night Lights, it says, the last one, the last home game of the season for the Dragons. Gav, what's our predictions? What are you going for in this game? We aren't winning. Really? You do surprise me. Keep it down to about 20 points. No, let's keep the margin down to 20 points. And I'd be happy with that. So you're going to say Storm was by 20, are you? Yeah. OK. 37-17. I think the problem when we play South African sides, we've seen it with the Sharks, and we saw it with the Lions. I think we battle hard, but we just get overruled by power. It's always the power that tells in the end when you're South African sides. As you know, we're not physical enough, are we? That will change next season. That's why we're bringing in these big guys, as we talked about earlier. But right now, our scrum really needs to stand up. And, you know, we talked about it on the last pod, Dragons do have statistically the worst scrum in the league. Yeah, that's on the URC Stats website. We've got the worst scrum. So we've just got to find some parity up front and try and contain the power. But it's never easy. And who are we playing? Oh, yes. The Stormers. South African, yeah. They've got a massive pack. So I'm going to be slightly more optimistic. I'm going to go a bit less. I'm going to say Storm was by 11. That would be my... I mean, you know, I'd love to see us get... I sound so negative, but I would like to see us get a losing bonus point. I want to get something out of this game because, you know, we're still fighting to avoid finishing bottom of the league, you know, we've got Scarletts and Zebra. Looking at that, you know, Steven Kitsoff, Franz Malherber, you know, just on the Stormer side. That's a big ask for our boys, isn't it? Yeah. Has Kitsoff, has he actually left Ulster yet, then? Has he gone with immediate effect? I believe so. Because you said Ulster, wasn't he? Yeah, he was, yeah. He didn't stay for very long. No. That was a waste of many, many hours, wasn't it? That was a flop signing. It does happen sometimes for the big names, doesn't it? Yeah. That's why we've been quite sensible in what we've done. Well, we've had big names, you know. It hasn't worked for us really, has it? Well, Ackie's a great example, isn't he? You know, he came with great promise. Rob Evans. Like, I really thought Rob Evans was going to be a very good player for us. You know, I thought he'd want to prove a point to the Wales management and get his career back on track, and well, we know what happened. Yeah, some signers, it's fair to say, at the Dragons have not lived up to expectations. So it happens, of course, doesn't it? It does happen. For everyone. Indeed. Indeed. OK, so you're saying Stormers by 20, I'm saying Stormers by 11. Yeah, I'll be there Friday night, so I hope it's a decent crowd. And yeah, let's get behind the points. This is the last home game and they're going to need our support. So yeah, I'm looking forward to that one. OK, I think we'll leave it there for this week. Good luck to the Dragons, of course, on Friday night. Gavin, thank you, as always. And thanks to you, our listeners. Please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. If you do listen to us through Apple, it does help if you leave a review. That gives us a good rating. A five star. Yes, anything less than five, we don't want. If you just give us five stars, that'd be much appreciated. So yeah, we'll be back very soon. So until then, take care and goodbye. Thank you for listening to the Dragons' Lair podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Please subscribe, rate and review wherever you listen to us, as it really helps spread the word. 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