Dragons Lair: An evening with Goughy

The Dragon's Lair podcast is a rugby podcast that can be found on platforms like Apple Podcasts and Spotify. They thank Lee Calvert from the Blood and Mud podcast and Mikey Harris from the Forbidden Love podcast for their support. They also mention that their Q&A with David Butcher has been very popular and even got quoted in Wales Online. They introduce their guest, Ian Gough, a former Welsh international rugby player who played for various clubs and won 64 caps for Wales. Gough talks about his upbringing in Gwent and how he got into rugby. He mentions his idols growing up, including Zinzan Brooke and the Pontypool front five. Gough discusses his club career, starting with Newport and later joining Pontypridd and then returning to Newport and the Dragons. He also talks about his failed attempt to sign with the Dragons again and how he ended up at London Irish before eventually returning to the Dragons to finish his career. Welcome to the Dragon's Lair. Hello and welcome to the Dragon's Lair podcast, your home all things Dragon's RFC and rugby in the region. I'm Jamie and joining me as always is my co-host Gavin Thomas. How are you doing Gavin? I'm very well Jamie. I'm done with the youth this week. I've been on TikTok, the other rat TikTok account. I'll be doing terribly choreographed dances and all sorts next. You really are done with the kids you've been getting on TikTok. I'll become an influencer. Okay, so you can find us on platforms such as Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pocket Casts and the Sports Social Network. And if you like what we do, please rate us, leave us a good review as it all helps us to grow the pod. Now, before we get into it, I just want to say a couple of thank yous. I want to say thank you to Lee Calvert from the Blood and Mud podcast who gave our David Butcher's Q&A a shout out and a kind review. Thank you for that Lee. And I want to say thank you to Mikey Harris from the Forbidden Love podcast, who in fairness has mentioned our pod a few times on his Forbidden Love podcast. I do appreciate that. So cheers Mikey. And thank you to everyone else who has been sending us great feedback about the pod and in particular that David Butcher's Q&A. That's been very, very popular, got a lot of feedback coming in from that. So quoted in the Wales Online as well. We even made Wales Online. Can you believe it? And they even included a link that goes straight to the episode. So thank you very much, Wales Online. That's much appreciated. OK, so we've got another guest with us this week. And our guest is a former Welsh international who has clocked up almost 500 club appearances. He played for the likes of Pontypridd, Newport, Dragons, Ospreys, London Irish. He also won 64 caps for Wales, including two Grand Slams. It is, of course, Iain Gough. Iain, welcome to the pod. How are we doing? Good. Yeah, good evening. All good. Yeah, it's good. I'm in from the bad weather out there. It's nice and warm in the house. So, yeah, where I want to be. Excellent. Sounds good. OK, then. So let's get into it. Let's start at the beginning. Do you want to tell us about your upbringing in Gwent and your journey into rugby and sort of how you became involved in the game? Yeah, I was a late starter. So I grew up just my mum, my elder brother and sister in a little council estate in Cwmbran, in Clwyd Eva, just by Holyrood school. It's my primary school. And then I didn't have a rugby teacher in school, in primary school, so it was all football and cricket. So I played that. I used to be enthusiastic. I used to go out and I used to have a go at everything, but I wasn't very good at everything. I wasn't good at most things, but I'd have a go because all my mates played it. So I'd be out doing all that sort of stuff. And, you know, brilliant on BMXs, roller skates and all sorts of stuff. And then I think I was bored on a Sunday when I was about 11, just as I was starting comp, and my dad sort of grabbed me by the cuff and said, right, off you go, mate, we're going to the local rugby club. He was a big rugby enthusiast, played lower league rugby. And he sort of didn't drag me kicking and screaming, but gradually, you know, in my goalkeeper top and football shorts and boots and dragged me to the local rugby club. And I had my first game in Cwm Veluwach at the Abercawn Valley. And then I was, I was hooked, you know, hooked in and, you know, we missed an age group. Cwm Brann minis was my initial team and missed a couple of age groups there because of, you know, we just had lacking numbers. So I went up to Pontypridd United for a couple of years. When they had lacking numbers, when it went to youth rugby then, I came back to Cwm Brann. And for the same reason, then, I joined Newport. My good mate from Cwm Brann, Dale Byrne, was playing for Newport youth and dragged me down the river to the city. And yeah, I never looked back. It was my chance, really. And I was lucky. I went across Toronto and played for the Toronto Nomads when I was 18. I left school midway through my A-levels. I wasn't enjoying my A-levels. Went out and had a year out playing rugby out in Canada, in Toronto, and then came back just as the game went pro then, in 1995. And then managed, you know, we had an exodus of departures from Newport that year with the likes of Kevin Moseley and Mike Voyle and Gareth Rees and boys like that sort of all left. So it gave me a chance, really. So most of the second rows left. So I was in the hot seat, really. And they threw me in as a 16 and a bit stone soaking wet kid. And I think I played about 27 games that year. I think I had the most appearances. And yeah, I got a few little awards in the end of season awards. And yeah, that started my senior career. And the next year, I was full time. And, you know, I've had a blast, you know, I've sort of really, I've had a blast. Yeah. So who were your rugby idols growing up then? Was there any particular players that inspired you? Yeah, I was, you know, from far ashore, I was, Zinzan Brooks was the first sort of idol, only because he was a forward, which we were perceived to be donkeys and, you know, Pienaaruva's not players and all those analogies. And he just had every skill in the book, you know, he could, you know, he could reverse pass from a scrum, he could, you know, he brought goals from 50 metres, he could put huge tackles in, he had everything. And lucky enough, I managed to meet him a few times later in the career, he actually came to coach, he actually came and did a few sessions with Andy Powell, and Ian McIntosh, where McIntosh was here as well. So, you know, it was great to meet my idol, so lovely to meet him. But on the Welsh front, it was the likes of, you know, I grew up, I was born in Pontypool, so you had the Pontypool front five, the infamous pack that they had, especially the front row. And, you know, they were, you know, they were sort of immortal legends around, around the area. So, and Gareth Jenkins was there, I remember watching them play in Pontypool Park against the All Blacks when I was about 14. And Darren was there, and the likes of Dale McIntosh, and people like that I sort of looked up to. And, yeah, and, you know, my first game was the great Muddy Waters, David Waters' last game, so I think it was the 702nd or 3rd game for Newport, and my first. So, you know, I managed to, you know, step in, in with an absolute legend as well. So, you know, guys like that are, you know, they're not, they're not made of the same stuff as most people, you know, to play that many games. No, absolutely. So, you started your club career with Pontypriddies, but I want to focus on your time in Newport. So, you made the hand... No, I started in Newport. I started... I thought you started with Pontypriddies first, no? No, I'm 96, 97, when, say, the year Gareth Lees, well, Gareth Rees, Kevin Bosley, say, Volley went to St. Lesley. We had a mass exodus of players that just left that year. I came straight out of Newport Youth, so I had two seasons in Newport Youth, straight into senior rugby. My first game was in the 96, 95, 96 season. I came on as a sub then with Muddy Waters against St. Lesley and Scraddy, and then the year later, I started the first game of the season there against St. Philly at home at Rodney Parade then in the 96, 97 season. So, I had two seasons with Newport before we got relegated. I signed with Pontypriddies, but the relegation got bounced last minute because Swansea and Cardiff joined the English league. But I'd already signed for Pontypriddies then, so I'd signed at a two-season. I saw my contract out there, and then the Tony Brown revolution hit Newport. I came back as soon as the season was made and things were happening. To come back to my home club was amazing then, so I was back by 2000. Was there always that kind of draw for you in terms of, you know, being a Gwent boy wanting to play for Newport? Was there always that? Because, you know, you're two spells of Newport and a Dragons. Yeah, it was my club, you know. It always means more when you play for your home club. You represent the people that you see every day in the street, you know. It's a little bit disjointed sometimes when you play for a faraway club. You go home, you're not immersed in the locality and, you know, just the flavour of the people around, you know. So, Newport was, yeah, it was a special place to me. It was my first chance and the youth rugby coming through that system and, you know, I still chat with some of the boys now. We've got a WhatsApp group with some of the Newport youth boys back in the day. And, you know, I had some great tours as well. We toured out in Osnabrück in Germany with them, which was, you know, I had to regrow my hair and eyebrows after that one, but it was superb. That's why it was so great then to finish off where I started. So, that was always an ambition. I tried to re-sign for the Dragons before I signed for London Irish and then I failed the medical, believe it or not. I failed the medical on my heart. I had a heart issue, you know, not too dissimilar from Alan Wynne Jones's, I think, that he's just gone through. So, I failed that medical, ended up signing for London Irish as a stopgap. And then, when the Dragons saw I played a load of games for London Irish, then they started inquiring again. So, it was great to be able to finish off where I started. So, it went full circle. And I was talking to Dan Lyddiot last night. I was a bit of a school with Dan and he said the same thing, you know, it was great for him to start off with Newport Dragons, Newport, and then go full circle and end up where he started. Okay. I apologise for that. It's my fault. I looked at Wikipedia and never trust Wikipedia. I honestly thought you started on it for you. I do apologise for that. It's my own fault. I'll do better research. But what I was going to say was, you made 139 appearances for Newport and you played for the club at the time when it was really thriving. So, attendances were higher, probably. Tony Brownie, if you remember, was pumping a lot of money into the club. And you played with the likes of Gary Teichman, Percy Montgomery, Shane Howard, Bobby Skinstad, etc. What are your memories and highlights of playing for that Newport team? Because I guess that that was pretty special, wasn't it, at the time when Newport actually really were thriving? Oh, do you know what? It was incredible because it was just the whole buzz around the place. And it wasn't just what we were doing on the field. We had a fantastic team and we just had a great camaraderie as well. We had a lot of boys all living pretty close. We socialised together, you know, the like of the great Rod Snow and Simon Raouloui. I still speak every now and then on social media with Simon and he was just such a character and such a presence. I love playing with Warriors, you know, Warriors like Snowy and Simon and Gary Teichman's reputation, you know, he was incredible. But, you know, Peter Buxton, you know, he was a Warrior as well. He was, they were superb players. You know, we had a great team, Adrian Garvey and Jimmy Richardson, Paul Young up front in Hockeny. They were really good guys, you know, we had a real good time. And yeah, it was great to be back. It was great to be, you know, to start tasting some success because it was, you know, it's what we deserved the end, you know, what we wanted. And we worked really hard, but it was off the field as well that was impressive there. I think it was Phil Davis of Treorchy fame, of the dream fame, came across and started running the community game and it just breathed life into the place. And the epitome for me was the game. We played Bath in the European cup and they put a temporary stand. I don't think Rodney Parade has ever held as many people. I might be wrong about that, but that night I'm sure we were above the health and safety standards. Speaking to Mark Jones, the now stadium manager, Mullet, as we call him, and I think we were probably about 2000 people above the allowed gate that night. It was, what an atmosphere that was. It was incredible and what a win against, you know, a very good quality Bath side as well. So, you know, games like that, do you remember, like the likes of, I think we beat Toulouse at home, you know, that's huge, you know, we had some really tough games against Leinster. We didn't quite get across the line against Leinster, but, you know, they were really epic games. And if it wasn't for the floodlights going out in the corner, you know, we had them on the rack and the floodlights, it almost gave them a breather, you know, a reprieve and they just come and they snuck a win. But no, we had some big, big performances going up to Newcastle and winning up there. And, you know, it was, it was a real sort of vibe around the place. It was a, it was a great place to be. Yeah. So you had two spells for the Dragons and you made over a hundred appearances in total. How do you look back at your time at the Dragons, you know, because, yes, there were some highs, but I'm guessing there were a lot of lows as well. Is there anything that stands out to you from a Dragons perspective? Yeah, do you know what, I think the way we started it, I think we got on WhatsApp with the original Dragons boys, if you want, or many of us, and we still speak quite regularly now. And I said, Pete Sidoli and Kerry Sweeney, Jamie Ringer and things, we organised reunions and things like that where we meet up every now and then, which is great. In that first year, nobody gave us a chance. And that was a great year for the Dragons because nobody gave us a chance. Amalgamation with Ebbw Vale and everything that went on, the controversy and the infighting that went on with that. So it was poor. We lost a lot of players that it went because of the transition and, you know, about foreign players or international players and things like that. So it was a real upheaval to start with, but then Mike Ruddock and Clive Griffiths came in and they were superb, you know, they, and, you know, it took some getting used to them because we had our preconceived ideas, if you want, because Mike came down from Ebbw and he was a bliner boy. And, you know, we, you know, the whole sort of set two with the Ebbw Vale, is it the Harris brothers? I can't remember the owners name, but the Oasis boys. But he was superb. He gelled us as a team that year and we played some really good stuff and Clive was fantastic. He was brilliant in, yeah, he was a maiden with his defensive roles as well. And, you know, and they sort of moulded us as a team. There were two different characters and two really different attributes as coaches and managers, but they really did get the sort of most out of us that year. And we were, I think we were going to Leinster with a chance of winning the league. We were playing in Lansdowne road and I think we needed a bonus point win. And I think we had a bonus point before half time, we scored four tries. But I think we just lost out, we lost out in a high scoring game. I think Ulster beat the Scarletts and I think we ended up coming third. But, you know, to go into that last game with a chance of winning the league, you know, was, was insane, you know, for a team of, you know, that we almost got the, the offshoots from, you know, wherever the club didn't want. And, you know, it just proves if you, if you, if you coach well and you, you sort of manage that environment and you, you sort of get the pitch of the boys, you know, then you can do some amazing things, you know, you can get the most out of the playing base you got. And again, because we were such a close knit unit as well, we enjoyed each other's company and, you know, it was a, that was a really good season. You talk to me about the period when it became the amalgamation of Ebbw Vale and Newport and everything. Do you think, Ian, that kind of Dragons have ever really caught the attention of everyone in Gwent? Because I'm an Ebbw Vale lad, you know, kind of, I'm a rare thing in Ebbw Vale's Dragons, Sam. Do you think Gwent has ever really taken the Dragons to the bosom properly? No, no, I still speak to, you know, some real diehard black and ambers and I get it to an extent, I do get it and it's hard. It's, you know, it's almost that generational thing, you know, we're so tribal in Wales, you know, we go to battle against our local villages and, you know, I played up in Pontypool, I played in Newport and from Cwmbran I'm in the middle. So, you know, I understand, you know, how tribal we can be and how hard it is for some people to accept and that's half the thing, you know, it's, that's where the likes of an Ian McIntosh, for example, a coach there, he came in with such enthusiasm and such charisma and, you know, everyone just believed in what he was coaching, you know, and his ethos and his strategy and, you know, everyone bought into it. Now, what they've struggled to do with Gwent and the Dragons side of things is just encapsulate that whole, the whole area and it's a tough job to do, you know, it's, I think when they, you know, when he put it into regions, when the decision was made, it was, you know, that, it needed a huge strategy to be able to connect and engage fans from all sides of the valleys that have warred against each other for years. We all put our Welsh jersey on when the Welsh matches are on, but it's different when it comes to club rugby and local rugby. So, yeah, that was a thing that they rushed into the region, regional game, without the foresight and strategy of, right, how will we make this work and how will we engage the locality? So, yeah, it was, it was a big experiment, but, you know, we're still here now. Yeah, and we've not really moved on, have we? You know, it's kind of, there's still people talking about Gwent and the Valleys club and all, you know, kind of, it started badly and I don't think it's ever really kind of come together properly, but, you know, for you as a Gwent boy and as someone who's played for Newport and for the Dragons, what do you think defines Gwent rugby? You know, I just think it's a, you know, it's a real steel workman-like sort of performances and I think you get that in the Valleys and I played, I've come from the Valley, but it's not really a valley. I mean, you know, as soon as you go up to Polypool and, you know, Blenavon and Bryn Mawr and Ebbw Vale and, you know, all those up and down the Valleys there, it's just tough people and good people and just tough working class people. When I signed for Pontypridd, I had a, you know, I think Cardiff, there was an option to go to Cardiff as well. Alex Evans was coaching there, but it wouldn't have suited me. You know, Cardiff wouldn't have suited where I came from and what I was about as such. It was a great, they had a great team, but it wouldn't have suited me personally. So, Pontypridd, you know, was much more, you know, that Valley club was much more my fit than, you know, than a city club like that. You know, so it was, yeah, I think that the people of Gwent, they're just hard edged people that have, you know, they've done it the hard way as well. And it comes from industry. I remember when Tommy Turner took us over and he took us on a bus trip up to the mines, you know, up the, up the Newbridge Valley, Cwm Calan Newbridge Valley, up to Big Pit and showed some of the foreign boys what we were about as Gwent men, you know, and what we'd gone through in the industry and the graph that went in, you know, as people were brought up over the generations. So I think, you know, that's what I thought Gwent rugby was all about. Likes of the Pontypool sides, you know, they were tough, abrasive, hard men, hard teams. And, you know, that's where I, you know, I think that's what encapsulated Gwent. I think that's that first year when Mike Rudd had been on board, it sort of said he was a north Gwent boy. He sort of, he mashed us together really well, you know, and it was, he did have a tough task to start with because, you know, we took some, you know, he had a win over a few boys that were, you know, that were very sceptical of him. And he did that, you know, I still speak to Mike now, actually. We still, I still see him across in Swansea when I pop across to, you know, to Ospreay's games and things like that. And, and yeah, it's, yeah, he encapsulated that because he was a tough Gwent boy himself. Yeah, I think for me, Gwent rugby is often, is about that type five, you know, kind of front props, second rows like yourself. And I think, you know, for want of a better phrase, Gwent rugby creates hard bastards. Now you're a hard bastard, exceptionally hard bastard, and a really awkward character on the field. Do you think there's many second rows like you anymore, Ian? Because, you know, dragons would kill for a player like you right now. Oh, yes, absolutely. But are there any out there, any players like you that bring a bit of dog to the fight? You know, I thought Alan Wynne epitomised it throughout his whole career. He was to me, he was like a, he was a number six, really. I thought he was a blindside. You know, he's a back rower, but he just had the size and shape of a second row as well. So he's, he brought sort of back row sort of athleticism, if you want in there, but he was a pain, you know, he was a, you know, he'd be climbing. I like Will Rowlands, you know, because I think he's a real deal, you know, he's just so big, and, you know, he's powerful with the ball. And, you know, I, you know, I liked him, like Jake Ball was sort of out of my sort of mould as well. He probably carried the ball a bit better than me, Jake Ball. He was a, he's a good player, but he's really good. But then again, we've lost the legacy with someone like Jake Ball, you know, as good as he was, but it's a hit, quick hit. And then either way, I think he's in Japan now or something like that, you don't see or hear from him again, whereas, you know, it's the local boys coming through that, you know, it's, yeah, it's because we're all different characters, you know, again, the Ospreys, it was all different, you had Ian Evans, and it was a great lineup forward, and, you know, he was a five, but it's that abrasive four, I think you're talking about, aren't you, that sort of workman, abrasive, rucketing, you know, unsung hero sort of four that, you know, I guess they're hard to produce, and the way the game's going, it's becoming, you know, not so much a type five, it's, you know, it's all at the front row, I don't think it'll ever change, I think they've got to do the cold face stuff, and that's what it is, they've got to be good, they've got to be crack at what they do, but then, you know, the back five have almost become like a back row unit, because they're getting so athletic, you know, the likes of, like, the Corey Hills and the Andrew Coombses, as such, you know, they're all back rowers, you know, say Adam Jones to me is a six, you know, it's just becoming like Mario Otoje, they're all, they're pretty much sixes that are playing, sixes and eights that are playing in the second row, because they're still six foot five plus. So, yeah, the dynamic has changed a little bit, but I don't think the front row will ever change, I think they're the cold face, they're the cold face boys, and, you know, what they do is incredible, you know, if it's not, you know, if you don't have a good front row, as good as the second row can be, you can give as much weight as you can, but if that front row aren't technically good enough and strong enough, then, you know, you're going to lose the battle. I have that argument with the front row I play with, you know, like I blame everything on them, but. Yeah, I don't, yeah, the problem is I don't, you know, I never blame a front rower because they can just stare back at me and they can crush my ears with a single hit. I always try to be really nice to the front rowers and, you know, I still don't know the language, you know, I sat around, you know, like Kerry Jones and Adam Jones and Hibbard and they would go into their front row talk about getting in the hole and popping them here and I just go, right, okay, I knew, I knew, I could feel, you know, I could feel it more than knew what they were talking about, you know, I could, I could feel it with the seat of my pants, but yeah, they sit in the back of the bus and they're a different breed completely, they just want to talk about scrummaging for about 39 hours a day. And I think that some of that's been lost in the game, hasn't it, you know, there are tight ends out there now who perhaps aren't as adept at scrummaging, but very good in the loops, but in my head, a tight end doesn't have to move, they just have to hold up their corner of a scrum. Yeah, but you know what, you're going to see, I commentate on the Dragons game against the Sharks on the weekend and yeah, they started off really well at front, they were doing really well, which I was, you know, it was good, Leon Brown, you know, he started and I thought he started really positively, but then towards the end of the game, the Sharks got the upper hand, it just proves to me like how games can be won and lost and it can still be won easily at front and the scrum penalties that they were getting and then all of a sudden, kicking to the corner, gaining penalties, you know, that sort of front row weight, you just can't combat it, you know, if they're stronger than you and they get those penalties, you just can't get out your own half anymore, you know, every scrum ends up being a penalty or poor ball and, you know, the basics, no matter how much the game progresses, if you haven't got that, you'll lose more games than you'll win. And it's a squad game now, isn't it? It's not just your front three, it's your front six because you need three guys who can come on and do the same job as well. Oh, for sure, I remember playing Leicester and with the EOS phrase this was and I remember like it was Duncan Jones, Adam Jones and Hibbard and I think Paul James was coming, you know, either on a bench to come on and I remember how hard, you know, how much work they put into that week of training, you know, about technically assessing who they were playing against and how they were going to, you know, get the upper hand or just hold your own, you know, just get enough strength, you know, just get enough sort of, you know, parity and just above to get the ball back in. And we did that for about 65 minutes. And then they brought on, I can't think who came on for us, but Kasper Giovanni came on for them, you know, completely different character, different way of scrummaging. And we were tired and bang, just destroyed us. And then I think we drew end up drawing the game, but we should have won it. We wouldn't drive and see, but then as soon as he came on, he just, well, I was scrum just sort of, he sort of just splintered us. He was just, you know, so strong, but a different, we prepared for the others, but, you know, you can't prepare for everything. And he just came on that depth. It was incredible, you know. Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about the Ospreys and you touched on the Ospreys. You had a lot of success there. You won a few league titles and you played in the so-called Galacticos era, the Ospreys. And you were playing with the likes of Marty Harlow, Gerry Collins, Justin Marshall, and a lot of the Welsh internationals. So many star names during that period, but who were the players, Ian, that you enjoyed working with the most there? Oh, as you know, they were brilliant. They were great. You know, Marty Harlow was a great bloke, you know, they were really good people, you know, really down to earth. Justin Marshall was different, he was a superstar. And you know, the backs are different anyway, you know, as a forward centre, we do bother with the backs and, but, you know, how you train and how you, you know, you train as a forwards, we hit and love each other all week and watching the backs do the little kicks and, you know, just, you know, looking at their kicks, oh no, I didn't like that so much. And we're there absolutely nailing each other and head to head. But yeah, the likes of Alan Wyn Jones coming through, you know, he's been, he's been superb. He's been a talent in football, rugby, you know, the likes of Adam Jones was, you know, a kid that was told he was too fat and he was being brought off after 20 minutes in the nationals, which was humiliating and turned around, you know, just by sheer grit, will and want to win. You know, a Hibbard who, you know, come from a tough end of the sticks in Sanfields in Port Talbot, you know, tough, tough background and, you know, came through and obviously played for the Dragons as well and, you know, just a real character in the game and just Duncan Jones, blind, grimly boy, top, top guy, you know, a very light, loose head, but had to be really wily about it and really technically good because he's up against such big, you know, much bigger guys, but, you know, it was rippled with talent coming through, you know, Steve Tandy was coming through and he was like the third choice at times and he was a good player, you know, I've never played against him. Yeah, and he's turned into a very good coach. And, you know, we just, we just had just, you could, you know, you could play two different teams and still be really competitive, no matter where you went, wherever you went in Europe, you would go in there expecting, you know, to be in touch or win, you know, and that's a hard thing. But sometimes I remember if you didn't have that strength and depth, you go to the likes of Toulouse and you think, oh, go on Perpignan and, you know, I remember going to Perpignan with the Dragons and thinking, oh, this is like a juggernaut coming at us, you know, it was a big, big ask and you did everything you could just to stay in touch on the scoreboard. Whereas at the Ospreys at that time, you had so much depth that you, you know, you were bringing on internationals, you know, I was, I was coming off, Ian Evans was coming on, you know, and, and things like that, young Justin Tiprick was coming through, you know, you had the likes of Marty Holler there and Filo Teotia who was an absolute warrior as well. So, you know, we had, we had, we were rippled with sort of talent, but then probably underachieved because we lost the Barretts in the quarterfinals of Europe and that was our big chance for a run. We won the league that year, we beat Munster away and Ulster away and we ended up winning the league, but that was our year in Europe, but games were so finely balanced and if you don't take your, you know, your, your opportunities when you could, then, then it slips away from you. So that was one that got away from us that year. Yeah, absolutely. Because Ospreys had a great squad and it still baffles me that the Ospreys had never won a European quarterfinal. That was the one hurdle the Ospreys could never overcome and they had so many brilliant players. That was just the one part, wasn't it, that you just, you guys just couldn't overcome for some strange reason. Yeah, we did it with Lynn Jones, we played Saracens up in Watford, I think they were playing at that time, and we beat them by 30, 40 points in the Millennium Stadium about a month before. So we go into the game of confidence, it was a Sunday game and, yeah, we blew it, didn't, you know, didn't turn up with the right mindset and, and we blew it. And again, that was a, that was a golden chance as well. So, yeah, it happened countless times, but it's like, it was like the, it was like the Holy Grail, the European semi-final to get to that. And we just never, you know, for whatever reason, so the mindset is a bit, a good bit of psychology around it all, but we never managed to connect it. No, okay. So let's talk about Wales then, in your Wales career. So you had 64 caps for Wales, you make your debut against South Africa in Pretoria in 1998. And yes, in case our listeners were wondering, it was the infamous 96-11 record defeat to the Springboks. Can you tell us more about that day, because that must have been a really bittersweet moment for you, to say the least. On the one hand, you know, you've got your cap, it's a proud moment, but then you're involved in Wales' record defeat. Can you tell us what that was like? Yeah, it was a tough tour, but it was my first tour, so I was made up. And we almost didn't get on the bus because there was a wrangle about the union, and so many players had dropped out. And I think they cut all the match fee, or they cut the sort of tour fee in half. It was, it was, you know, left a bit of a bitter taste in a lot of people's mouths that we were travelling out there under cupped, you know, because we had so many players that didn't come, for whatever reason. And then it was monetary-wise, they were, you know, you were being sort of penalised for it, which, you know, you were going out there facing, you know, the world champions. But it was a big tour, you know, we played Zimbabwe in Harare the first game out. And then we had three or four games, they were sort of playing their regional teams, and then a test match right at the end against a huge box side. And, you know, little, you know, game by game, you just kept losing players with injuries and parachuting players in. But it gave me my chance, and I was behind, I probably started that second or third choice, second row, you know, behind the starting two. I worked my way around, and Mark Jones was on that tour, so I had to sort of, I had to get over Mark Jones as well, and luckily he had an ingrown hair in his bum at the base of his thigh. So we said his arse went, you know, his arse went, he went back, but it was a tough boy, Mark. And is that the nice player, Mark Jones? Yeah, he's a big goobie. He's just got a book out, apparently it's really good. But it's why I've got a lazy eye, because he hit me up in Evervale, and I had to pay admission to get back in the ground. So he gave me a proper clout. He's another tough Gwent character, isn't he? Oh, he was teak, he was teak, yeah, but yeah, he hit me, and crikey Moses, I didn't know what bus it was. So, yeah, it was a big one. But yeah, that tour, and then going into the tour, I think Kingsley Jones was captain. He came in, and he came in as a late inclusion. Stephen Jones got his first of his 102 caps, I think, in that game. Oh, that's right, yeah. I forgot Stephen Jones, yeah. Yeah, Dyke Liu was captain that game. Mark Taylor, obviously, he's from Pontypool. So we had a good few Gwenties in there, but yeah, it was just a massive tour. I think we went up, I think we were like 7-0 up at one point. So we were like, right, call the game off, that's it. We played the song, tub something, I get knocked down, but I get up again. Well, we knew all the words off the heart by then, because they scored, I think, 13 or 14 tries, I think they scored. But I think it was 15 tries in all. And they were going for the 100, and Dyke Liu, I think it was his first cap, and he was keen as mustard. We'd been chasing shadows all day, and he used box, and the likes of Percy Montgomery, and Robbie Fleck, and guys like that. And then we wanted to slow the game down with Dyke, come on, and he was taking quick-tap penalties. And I was like, Dyke, slow the game down. But yeah, it was great. My dad's from out there, my dad managed to find out, because it was the caretaker coaches, because it was supposed to be Mike Ruddock that was coaching that trip. And they couldn't agree terms last minute, so Lynn Howells and Dennis John took over from the Pontypridd coaches. So I was signed, funnily enough, that year, that's my sign for Pontypridd. So I'm not saying that to put pressure on me, but I came back and signed for Ponty. But it was just those games too far, having those three games in the middle. I think we played the emerging box, Natal, Bhutan Falcons and Borders. And yeah, lots of players, every time we got injuries, and we were just left so spread bare at the end. We had a good start in Boyd, but then, as you say, too many stubs started going on, we just weakened. And yeah, it was a big, big loss. And I just thought, right, I'm not going to get picked for Wales again then, that's it. And it's still the record defeat, we haven't lost for that again. So that's an infamous day that I still carry that. But Graham Henry came in, and it started a bit of a revolution in Wales then. And even though it had blipped a couple of years into his tenure, it forced the task of Watkins, who was the chairman at the time, to sort of take action and reassess where we were, because we weren't as good as we thought we were, maybe. Why do you think you had more caps, because lots of guys who played in that game didn't really die for Wales and didn't have really another bite of the cherry, did he? What is it that you think that you had that kept you being selected and well scored for quite a long time? I think it was a bit of perseverance. I think I did get a lot of caps in the end, but behind Rob Howley, I think he was in the squad. He was in the squad, yeah, he was in the squad for more than almost a year then. And then Dwayne Keele came and took over from him on the bench. But I just think I had a bit of a resilience, you know, I just had that bit of a chip on my shoulder. But I came from a little council estate in Cwmbran, and I think I always played out of a bit of, right, sod them, I'm going to knock him off his perch. So any time there's a second on my way, I'm like, right, I'm coming for you, because, and that was my motivation. I wanted to play for Wales, and I'd have to knock off the perch. And it was tough because you had the Craig Quennell, that was a big ball carrier, he was probably limited as a line-out forward in that area, but he was a big ball carrier and a big presence around the field. And it was those sort of guys, Chris Wyatt was in a different position, but it was like Brent Cobain came into the frame a few years later, and I had to try and knock him off the perch. And, you know, it was all over, you know, you just, yeah, I just had to make the jersey my own. And I never wanted to give up on it, even when I fell out with Steve Hansen. I had a couple of years in the wilderness, you know, Mike Rudd, you know, Rudd's got back in. But then I think because I'd sort of probably been a bit too loose-lipped in the press after being dropped by Hansen and Brent Cobain being introduced, then I had a lot, you know, I had to overcome a reputation of maybe I whinged a bit, you know, when I, you know, I whinged and moaned when I didn't make the 2003 World Cup. So I almost signed for Barrett, so I almost went out to France thinking, right, that's it. And it was almost that, you know, the Pets were like, right, that's it, I'm buggering off. But I stayed and stuck at it basically and thought, well, no, well, there was a chance I was going to play for Wales. I'm going to stay here and try and play for Wales as long as I possibly can. So, you know, get up and down, even under Reds, I managed to get back in eventually under Reds, 2005, played a bit part in that Grand Slam, which was incredible. And then, yeah, really had to get myself in that team, which I managed to do. And then the Gareth Jenkins era and, you know, everything, we had loads of different things. We had Grannygate that happened. We had, you know, we had the Grannygate incident with Brett Singleton and Shane Howard, then the Ruddock Gate, you know, we had Graham Henry when Graham Henry and Steve Black left, you know, under the clouds. And, you know, so there were so many times where I just thought, oh, God, this is never going to, this isn't going to go well. This is going to be another 80s era for us, you know, where, you know, we just don't get any, you know, just as we started getting success, something else crazy would happen. And then Gatland came in and stabilised everything really. And luckily I managed to play a couple of years under that golden era. Yeah. So what was it like playing under Warren Gatland then? And is Sean Edwards as scary as he seems? Yeah, you just don't know how to read Sean, he's bonkers. He's a, he's quick, because he's got an enigma. He's a, you just didn't know where he was coming from at times. And, you know, he could be brilliant, he's one of the boys, because, you know, top player in his day. But then he just had that real hard edge and that deep look and stare, and you just didn't know where you were, you know, and if you upset him, he's going to, he's going to butt me, you know, he's going to put the elbow on me. So, yeah, he was good because he had that enigma, you didn't know where you were with him, you couldn't be, you couldn't get in the comfort zone, put it that way. Same with Gatland, you couldn't get in the comfort zone because you didn't quite know how to read him. And you didn't quite know where to push his, you know, push his button. So you're always living in that little bit of fear. And they were great in instilling confidence in you, but they were quite tough. There's a lot of tough love that went on there. And yeah, he just, he just made us believe in ourselves again. And yeah, the same player that Gareth Jenkins had, but a lot of it was confidence and belief and, you know, and, you know, he just set up a really, really good environment there. And, well, you know, and there was no, there was no outs, you know, it was, you know, there was, there was no outs to, uh, no shortcuts and things like that. They were on you all the time, but it was fun as well. You could have a beer and, you know, probably too many beers at times because the boys used to get into a bit of trouble. Andy Powell and gang. You all remember that golf cart incident, don't we? Oh dear. Right. So as I mentioned to you, you was involved in two Grand Slams, but what other highlights do you have playing for Wales here and any particular games or memories that stand out to you of doing those caps, 60-ball caps? Yeah, the epitome, you know, there was loads of good ones. We beat Australia, you know, that was amazing. I think we beat Australia twice and I think I blew against them once. You know, that was great. I can never got the elusive South Africa game. We came close a few times. I only went and played against the All Blacks, um, which is serious when they did it, when they did the hacker in the, in their changing rooms, you know, as a, as a protest. So yeah, huge games, you know, beating England away and twicking them huge, you know, that, you know, I, I, I'd been there and, you know, played against a 2003 world cup winning team there and, and 50, 60 points per on us, you know, home run away. Uh, so, you know, beating those away is amazing. Going away to Ireland and winning is, you know, that's the biggest game that I had just because just purely all lined up. It was my 50th cap against France in the Grand Slam deciding game in the Millennium Stadium under Gatland. We'd just been dumped the year before we got dumped out of the world cup by Fiji in the group stage. Uh, I got dropped after that, so I didn't think I was going to get back in again, but Gatland sort of picked, I'd signed for the Ospreys. He picked a load of Ospreys from the first game, like 12 or 13 Ospreys. Uh, and then we beat England away, which was incredible. And then we just went on this road of confidence. Uh, and then I had to lead, I led Ray Gravel's girls out, uh, who were the mascots on that day in Cardiff, uh, for my 50th capsule, led the girls out and then we won a grand slam. I played every game. So I couldn't really beat that, you know, it was that consistent string of games. We played some really good rugby and, uh, you know, it was, you know, it was a, it was a really good sort of grand slam after being, you know, the embarrassment of being, you know, dumped out of the world cup by Fiji. I remember that. So as you know, Ian, Welsh rugby is going through a difficult time at the moment due to the budget and squad cuts. Now, Ospreys are the best team in Wales by some distance, but from what you've seen, what, what, what have you made to the regions this season, in particular, the Dragons? How do you feel about how the regions are progressing in difficult circumstances? Yeah, sure. It is difficult circumstances. I don't know if I put my finger on the Dragons, what's going on there because, you know, they've had multiple coaches now and it's just, you just lack consistency. It's just getting that consistent. I guess you need a depth in the squad to be able to be consistent, uh, like that, but it's just, you know, they, they raised a certain game that they play the Ospreys, beat the Ospreys, and they've got a good tradition. They beat the Scarlets this year, but then, you know, beat the Ospreys and then go out to the sharks and have 60, 70 points per one, whatever it was. So it's just, it's just the balance and consistency, which is really hard. It must be tough as a supporter at times because... Tell us about it immediately. I'm, you know, I'm going to stand and commentate. I'm willing, with the best will in my world to, you know, for them to, to get over the line and connect with it. But then it's, um, it just, it's frustrating sometimes. Some of the game management at times, instead of the game, the sharks game day, it was, it was frustrating to commentate because you want, I wanted them to win and I want them to do well and they started it so well and, and we flushed that try, um, early on and then they just slowly fell apart at the seams. And yeah, it's hard, but you know, what we tried ourselves on early on in the Dragons, uh, and Newport as well, that, you know, we had to be a really, really hard team to beat at home. You know, you know, if they beat us at home, that would be, you know, also the French mentality, you know, it would take something, we would come out, we were really out of those stalls, uh, and we were climbing into people because, you know, we, we wanted to win, at least win our home games and then whatever away games we could pick up, then brilliant, you know, but, you know, we wanted to make Rodney Parade a fortress and that's, that was our whole mindset, but it's, that seems to have slipped a little bit. And anyway, it's not as easy as that. We'll make it a fortress and just come out with a lot of Tarzan and Raar and things like that. But it's, um, yeah, it's just, uh, yeah, it's just, that, that's the thing that hits me then. And that points sometimes for environmental issue. If, um, if the performances are inconsistent with that, it's, you know, sometimes, you know, that's part of your environment because, um, you know, I'm not saying that is the case, but that's what it would point to, you know, and I don't know for sure, but it's a shame. And they're like the Cardiff, Cardiff, and you know, they've got a lot of players, uh, you know, young players that have, uh, been introduced in the squad. It's pretty, it's the Ospreys that have got the least, uh, I've got a very small number selected considering that they actually put some big performances in and they've been beaten some decent teams. Yeah. They would dominate that Wales squad. I think if they didn't have so many injuries. Yeah. They've been quite unlucky, haven't they, with injuries, but, uh, yeah, it's been a difficult time. Scarletts are really struggling, you know, confidence has drained out the Scarletts. I've commented on them this year and yeah, Dwayne's got a lot to do there because, um, and that's a hard thing to recoup when they, when a side loses a bit of confidence and losing becomes a habit, like winning becomes a habit, when you're confident. So I think they're in that mode. Cardiff, they're playing some exciting rugby at times and they're putting some nice stuff together, but, um, but again, when they come up against a heavyweight, like a Harlequins or a Raton and, uh, and they just, you know, again, it exposes a bit of a lack of depth in there. So, you know, there's a lot of work to do, but there's a lot of, you know, I think the union should, I think there needs to be not less funding. I think there needs more funding. If they want the game to survive properly, they need to fund it properly. You know, and that's, you know, you can't, you know, you, you don't run a Formula One team on, on diesel, do you? You know, you've got to put the best stuff in there if you want to compete. And that's, and that's the thing, you don't, you don't win leagues or compete on, on the tightness of budgets, you know, unless you've got some, you know, an exceptional coach with an exceptional environment there and, you know, with the best strategy, you know, strategist in the world. And I think we've got that at the minute. And I think the Irish side, people talk about the systems and the coaching set up, but they are funded twice as well as the Welsh regions are. So that's totally good to have an input as well. You know, we're going to drag in the scrap and the fine guys playing in the Curry Cup and they're bringing in World Cup winners. You know, it's, uh, yeah. The depths, yeah, the Irish, you know, the region, the Irish regions have been, you know, they've, they've got a very good system out there again, but they're regions that that's what they've always done. So the region has been born for years and years of, of, um, of work. So, yeah, we've been thrown into this, you know, our, our, our club rugby, you know, you know, I think that's how it, you know, again, it's too late now. We're 20, 20 years in, but it's, um, you know, it's a super club to the way I thought it should go, you know, you know, specific clubs covering, covering Wales, but yeah, we are where we are. It's just, it's a tough one to climb out of, but I definitely think the union, they, they haven't had over the years. Uh, and I think, you know, and just, just the way they run at times and, you know, they go into a tough time themselves and they have to try and reinvent themselves, but no, I think, you know, I'm, I'm sure there's enough money there because there's so many, you know, the management and everything, the union, you know, there's a lot of people taking way to taking money there. And if it means streamlining that to get more funding towards the regions, because the rugby is your bread and butter and that's where, that's where everything comes from. So I think everything should be plowed, prioritised for that, not other things, but easier for me to stay like that. Yeah, no, absolutely spot on. Um, I want to talk to you in, if I may, about concussion. Okay. So you are one of 300 odd rugby players to assume in the sports governing bodies over concussion. Now you recently gave an interview to Wales online explaining all this, but for those who haven't read it, do you just want to explain why you are taking legal action and what's your experience with concussion in the game? Yeah, I, um, you know, you've seen it over the years and it's one of those things. Um, you know, it's a perception with people as well, because the perception you'll, you know, that I've often faced is, well, you get paid lots of money, you know, you knew what you were getting into, you know, but it's, it's not that, you know, I dislocated my shoulder, played in the cup final for when we won the cup final with Newport and then, you know, I had a scan, I had a surgery, uh, two, three months of physio, you know, I got back, I had to hit certain targets and strength targets and flexibility targets and you know, scrums and all that before I was allowed to play. Now with a concussion, you know, you could have a serious concussion or that, and you know, after a couple of weeks or whatever, it might, you might not see any, you know, you know, visibly, you can't see the effects of that with the shoulder, you can't lift your arm or the head, you know, you might be having headaches or blurred vision and things like that, which are signs, you know, the, the, the offshoots of, yes, I've got a, you know, I've got an injury here that needs healing. Uh, and if that wasn't looked after properly and that players have made or pushed to play and peer pressure to play and, you know, manipulate the play, then the playing players through brain injuries and on top of injuries, which get worse if I played the next week with a dislocated shoulder, you know, with a massively torn shoulder, then the likelihood, you're 10 times more likely to rip that shoulder and cause permanent damage and the same with the brain injury. So, you know, I don't think people have been very, um, grown up about it over the years, how they've dealt with it. And if the, uh, you know, uh, uh, research and things are telling us that, you know, this, the, the, it was known there was knowledge about the danger of concussions and repetitive head knocks and training and in matches and things like that for a long time, yet nothing was actioned, um, to make it safer. And that's all I want. I want, you know, I've got three boys, three young lads, uh, and I love the game of rugby and it gave me a lot and I just want them to be able to enjoy it without the fear of having dementia when they're 40 years old and not remembering their kids' names and, you know, and having, you know, having their standard of life degraded to a massive amount, uh, where, where it could have been avoided, you know, it could have been made that little bit safer and protocols put in, which you can still enjoy the game. And we know, we know you're going to get concussions in a game and I, you know, I'd go into a game with, you know, yeah, I can get a couple of concussions a year, at least, you know, you knew it, but it's how that's allowed to heal and to make sure that, you know, you're, you're cared for and treated as a human being, um, not just, um, a winner or a cost machine, you know. No, and that your world rugby knew where the risks were and wouldn't communicate it, you know, it's all sport embodies that it's, uh, you know, I think the attitude that, oh, people knew what they let themselves in for is either, well, foolish or, uh, you know, deliberately obtuse because no one did, I've played rugby all my life, you know, I'm far too old to still be playing now, but, you know, kind of, at least now I think there is a degree of care around concussions and I think health, you know, you must have seen that shift, Ian, because I can remember when I was younger because of, oh, you'll be fine, don't worry about it, but, but now, you know, it's, it's moved on, hasn't it? Well, you'd hope, you know, and I'll get, you know, I'll give an anecdotal story, um, that playing for Wales, um, it was where it's in the lion's year. So, um, Gatlin was a way, so it was a Gatlin era. So, you know, one of the guys we, we kicked off, we played America in Chicago, uh, the ball got kicked off, uh, number eight was Brian Jones, the Rogers Stone boy, high prosper, caught the ball and got hit by the, he was like a, he was a Samoan American number eight that didn't break stride, just hit him like a freight train and he was knocked out before he hit the floor. You know, this is four seconds in the match. He was like a Tyson knockout. And, uh, and then he's hitting a deck. I remember mostly over the physios and the medical staff, almost like he's done, you know, you know, he's done. I said, he's out, he is out. And he played on for about 20 minutes and he was so visibly out, you know, he was, he was, he was, you know, he got up, he was shaky. And I want to say it was one of Sam Warburton's first games. I might be wrong there, but you know, uh, uh, he did tour on that one. I think he might've come on. I'll have to check, but he, you know, he played on for 20 minutes and I remember them calling the back room when I'm in a scrum going, looking back one guy, he doesn't even know where he is. I'm saying this in the 2009. So I'm saying, if he doesn't know where he is, don't call any background rules that involve him. He doesn't know where he is. Uh, and he went off after 20 odd minutes. Now that the risk of him getting a secondary concussion was huge because he's almost punch drunk. He's almost, you know, cognitively he was right. You know where he was. So the secondary concussion, I think I hear the stats that secondary concussion before the first one's healed is a 50% chance of, you know, life changing damage or death, right. It's huge. And this is played for Wales. You know, this is played for Wales in the new era and he plays on, we, we fly back. He stays, you know, he's ill, he's sick afterwards and he stays in all night. We all go on the beers, fly back home from Chicago the next day. He gets the call. One of the lions boys get injured out in South Africa. He gets a call, flies out to South Africa. Then on I want to say the Wednesday or the Thursday, they can't scan him, give him a brain scan. He flies on the next day because his brain, you know, the damage was very apparent. And I'm thinking he played, you know, he was physically knocked out. You know, he was, he was, there's no other way you couldn't dress it up with anything else apart from a huge, big concussion. This guy's had at the time, you couldn't disguise that, you know, it was so plain. And yet he played on and, you know, the brain damage was there to see days later than the damage that has happened to his brain. Yeah. He was, you know, he played on, which was, you know, it was, it's like someone running into oncoming traffic, man. You know, it's, it's, it's dangerous, you know, and that's one anecdotal story, you know, and there's lots of others, there's lots and lots of other stories like that out there. And it's just, you know, it's not fair. He's a human being and that's, and then Ryan's part of the claim and he was, and he's struggling with, with early onset dementia as well. And, you know, he did a very heartfelt sort of report in the papers as well when he came out with that. Yeah. Yeah. No, thank you for that. I'm conscious of time. I've kept you for long enough, but I do appreciate you joining us. I just want to get your thoughts before you go on Wales. So it's the Six Nations next week, playing Scotland at the Sellout Princes' Party Stadium. Ian, how do you feel about Wales going into the Six Nations campaign? Because there's been a lot of talk about the inexperience of the squad. There are five uncapped players in the squad. The average age is 25. You know, people saying that it looks a bit wooden spoony because the lack of experience, but I think Gatland realised that now is the time to rebuild. How would you feel about Wales going into the Six Nations there? Do you think we can compete and do better than people say, or do you think it is going to be a bit of a struggle? Yeah, I do. I think it all points towards, if you, you know, analytically, if you're looking at it, you'd think it would point towards a tough tournament for us. It would be a, you know, we're up against it, where the odds are sort of favouring, I'm not sure what the bookies are saying so far, but, you know, Scotland's first game could be huge, right? The Six Nations, the massive amount of momentum and confidence. Now, getting out of the blocks and getting a win against Scotland will be massive for us. We go to England the next week, you know, we're going to, you know, we're off to Twickenham. So that'll be huge, you know, getting out there. If you, if we have a poor performance and a loss against Scotland and the mindset and the, you know, momentum go and then go to Twickenham, then it's a real long tournament. So getting out of the blocks, because England are not, you know, they haven't, they've got great players, but they haven't played well as a team for a long while. They haven't been consistent enough. So, you know, they're not the dominant team that they once were at times, and they can, they could be anyone on their day in the world, but they're not the dominant, consistent team. But, you know, we've got a big job against Scotland and Gatland, whereas going into that world cup, I had a bit of belief in that, thinking he's had them for three months away from all the politics of Welsh rugby and all the negativity. He took them away up to Switzerland and Turkey or wherever he was. And I know what he can do when he has those players on their own. He can instil confidence and belief and conditioning with them. Now he's got a new group of players now, you know, he's got a good portion or proportion of a new group of players. Now, whether he had enough time with that new group of players to mould them quick enough into that team, we'll see, you know, if anyone can do it, Gatland, you know, is a master, but it's a huge, huge ask. And again, all on this Scotland game, we get out of the blocks flying, we have a win against Scotland, game momentum and confidence and combinations work. And about keeping a fit, because I think that our 15 would probably look pretty decent, but you know, George North scared everyone the other week. And if a few players drop out and then it's that depth we're talking about, you know, it's going to be tough. We've got Ireland away, two weeks after, you know, that's two massive teams. And then a French team that I believe, you know, I wanted to see in the World Cup final, but it's gone. And then it'll be the finish. So it's, again, I think it's the World Cup final for us against Scotland, because, you know, if we blow that, we come out of it with a lack of confidence and that will affect the whole, there'll be a domino effect throughout the tournament. But we come out, we put a huge performance in, then anything can happen. You know, you can go up to England. Gatland's been there lots of times and turned them over. You know, the confidence you get as long as people stay fit, there's a chance, you know, but again, you know, I reassess after the Scotland game, but at the minute, I'd say it's a tough, it's a big ask for, you know, for the whole thing. But, you know, it's the belief in that squad and what Gatland can do with them and how we can make them believe and, you know, and big things can happen. It's the first step of the four-year cycle, isn't it? Yeah, you've got to remember that as well. It is that. So, I don't think there's as much pressure on Gatland in that way, because, you know, we know what we've got and, you know, we're quite, you can analyse it and go, well, okay, well, you know, he's got, you know, youngsters that are starting out on their journey and he was 25, he was young internationally. So, you know, there's a lot to learn in that environment. It's the pressure cooker. So, yeah, he is on a new cycle, so there's not much pressure, but, you know, how good would it be, you know, get a win against Scotland, you know, get a, you know, get a huge performance against England and then whatever happens in that Ireland-French game, because they're two of the best teams in the world at the minute, and then finish it off. So, yeah, these first two games are very important to, you know, to where it goes. I think three wins would be a great return for me, I think, if we can get three wins. Oh, yeah, two to three wins. That would be huge. Yeah, that would be huge. I'm just trying to think where it's going to go. We've got France home, right, which, you know, in years gone by, you'd say, you know, yeah, we can take France at home, we can do that, you know, but, you know, Sean Edwards just had that bit of X factor with them, hasn't he? He seems to have solidified them in a way that they lose, they win games they would have lost in the past. It's a main thing, isn't it, with France now, which they didn't have before. Yeah, exactly that. You know, they become a championship winning team all of a sudden. And again, you know, it's not all Sean Edwards, but I think he's added that few percent that have that, you know, that, you know, that strength and that, you know, belief maybe and hard edge maybe in defence and areas where they would just be going great, you know, the French, the arms go up in the air and they go a bit crazy. He's sort of, he's given that consistency, I believe. So, it makes them a very tough team to beat now. Yeah, absolutely. Right, okay, let's get your predictions. Where have the Wales finished in the Six Nations and who's going to win it? I'd say, I don't know, I haven't looked properly at, I know where we're playing and our route, but I haven't looked properly at the other teams' route yet to see what their run is, you know, this or a second, third game to see what momentum they can get. But I think with my heart, I want Wales, you know, I'd say third, but I think fifth. Yeah, I think fifth, but my heart says third, but I think fifth. I think France will win it with Ireland very, very close. Great, lovely stuff. It could be Ireland or France, but I think France might nudge it because they were, you know, the disappointment of not progressing further in their own World Cup. I think that would make driving. No, I agree, it was either going to be Ireland or France completely. Ian, thank you so much. You've been a fantastic guest. I really appreciate you giving up your time to join us on this Thursday night. All the best. Best wishes to the family and take care. Thank you, guys. Thank you very much. Thank you. Cheers. Here we go. Ian Gough, that was an interesting chat, Gough. It was, yeah. It was, you know, it was kind of an insight into when the kind of the merger, the Newport-Gwent thing happened was quite interesting, I thought, because, you know, I think at that point, Dragons lost the Gwent support. You know, I was, you know, I remember around that time, and, you know, and I've said it before, Edwill Weatherstone's full of Dragons shirts, and not Dragons, it's Ospreys shirts. Ospreys, yeah, Ospreys, yeah. And still is, you know, it's like, you know, I wear Dragons stuff and around Edwill, people look at me like I'm mad. Yeah, Ospreys have a huge following in Gwent, but a lot of that was because of the Galacticos and the fact they are the majority of the Welsh squad, and people just want to, you know, jump on the bandwagon and create success, don't they? You know, if I was the Dragons, everyone would be Dragons fans, wouldn't they? Yeah, I went to school in Merthyr, and everybody was Liverpool fans at the time, because people look up to the successful teams, don't they, you know? Yeah, well, I'm glad Ian joined us, because I really liked him as a player, and really uncompromising, like you said, he was a tough bastard a lot. We are craving out of the Dragons now, especially since Will Rawlings are gone, and he's a good pundit as well, Ian Gough, I do quite like his punditry. Yeah, I don't think the game is changing, you know, and the second rows are becoming more athletic, and occasionally, you just want somebody who's going to hit every ruck, and hit every tackle, and every ruck is going to be like a train has hit it, and every tackle is going to feel like you've run into a minibus, because they just are bastards. And, you know, and I think that's kind of disappearing in players like Ian Gough, and Mark Jones, who we talked about, who played for No. 8. That's a dying breed. They're not fancy, no one's going to want a, you know, a sticker of Mark Jones or Ian Gough, because they're not those kind of players. Rugby lives and dies on those guys. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, good stuff, I enjoyed that chat with Goughy. Okay, let's get into some news then. Unfortunately, shit news really, Brian Woodman, he's set for a spell on the sidelines after suffering a serious thumb injury against the Sharks on Sunday, really disappointed us, because whenever he's played for us this season, he's taken us opportunities, he's not a really good guy, so this is a bit disappointing. Yeah, I think he's a great player. I think he's been the standout young player for us this season. Yeah, absolutely. So, we wish him a speedy recovery. In other news then, the Wales Under-20 squad has been named, so there are six Dragons in the squad. Guess who's captain? Harry Ackerman, a Dragon, so that's good news, isn't it? Brian Woodman unfortunately misses out, but he is replaced by his fellow teammate Harry Ackerman, so I'm pleased for him. And he's being joined by Hugh Anderson, Harry, Rhys Weldon, Walker Price, Jordan Morris and Nick Thomas. Congratulations to those. And also, the Dragons Academy and Newport RFC coach Sam Hobbs, who's helping out with our defence, as you know. He's also joining the Wales Under-20s coaching team, he's going to help out with the forward, so congratulations to those guys. Another congratulations to the Dragons Women Under-18s, who made it three wins out of three after a 22-17 win over Cardiff at the Alms Park. It's nice to see one Dragons team win over Cardiff, isn't it? So, fair play, well done to the girls of Gwent. Not such good news for the boys, I'm afraid, so Dragons Under-18s fell to a 64-70 defeat to the Scarlets Under-18s in the regional age-grade championship of the Scarlets this week. So, commiserations to them, and hopefully they'll bounce back soon. So, yeah, that's the news round-up. And Gav, it's time for your Gwent rugby round-up. What has been happening? Well, not a lot this weekend, because it was a cup weekend predominantly. But in the premiership, there was rugby played. Top of the table clash between Flandavory and Edd Braille. Flandavory aged 17-15, so that's much strengthening Flandavory's position in the league. Newport also played. They beat Aberavon 27 points to 10. So, in the premiership, currently Flandavory are top and they are pulling away. Edd Braille are second, but Flandavory and Newport have games in hand against them. Newport are third, Pontypool are in fifth. Their points total hit by the earlier cancellation against RGC and the subsequent points removal. Then cup games make up the majority of others. In the championship cup, so for clubs at that level and the level below, the red division one, Bedwas beat Brecon 36-17, so they go into the next round. In the division three cup, so that's for the sides around division four and for second teams of sides at a higher level, Colwyn Bay beat Romney 33-15. Hell of a journey that for the boys from Romney going all the way to Colwyn Bay. A lovely trip up the A470, I'm sure that was for Romney. Then Bliner, also another trip to Nant Conwy, their second 15. Bliner beat them 34-7. Now, a very close friend of mine, Kev, is from Flandroost with Nant Conwy base and I can remember getting painfully drunk with Nant Conwy rugby team in the pub. I think it was called the Bull in Flandroost. We put David Ywan and Songamur O'Head on the jukebox and the Bull 20 times in a row. It was quite the night. Then in the division four cup, Newpant Hague beat Gwyneved 20-17. And this is a result that kind of sticks out for me. So, Newport Saracen won 33-15 against Maesteg. The fact that Maesteg are playing down in the lower levels there. I remember Welsh in the National playing for Maesteg. Chico Hopkins went on two Lions tours. Maesteg, boy. It's just mad to see them down there. But we also have another bit of Gwent rugby news. So, from our friends at the Official Supporters Club, they're saying about the Dragons All-Stars, which is a mixed ability team. They have an Anglo-Welsh fixture this Sunday at the Whisker RFC against Longleavens, which I believe are a club from Leicestershire. It might be Herefordshire. Gloucester. They're Gloucester. Yeah. Yeah. So, they're playing Longleavens mixed ability side at Whisker. 2.30 kick-off on Sunday. And Christian Hyde, who is one of the mainstays of the Official Supporters Club, has marked his 25th appearance for the team on the eve of the 17th anniversary of his kidney transplant, which was donated by his father. You know, that's remarkable. Lovely stuff. Yeah. And the All-Stars have also very nicely offered, if I would like a game for them, that I would be welcome as well. So, and as I said... And? Are you going to take him up on that offer? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good man. Good man. Well, I said I wanted to play a game of club rugby in Wales. I think, you know, that might be... You did. Yeah. I have a ridiculous plan that I am developing that I will share. And so, some of the listeners of Paul might know, a couple of years ago, a friend of mine died from skin cancer. And as a result, I did a charity match, played two games in 24 hours, raised four and a half grand from Elnorme, UK, with help from, like Lee from Blood and Mud and Sam Laughner and lots of other guys and played. And I'm planning something similar. So, I will keep listeners... Excellent. ...about that, because, you know, I am definitely retiring. You keep saying that, but you're playing this bloody weekend again. I am. I am. I'm a starlet hooker. Hooker? For God's sake. Oh, dear. You just need to say, sorry, guys, I'm retired. You keep getting dragged in. You keep saying to me, I'm not playing, I'm retiring, I'm retiring. It's like, oh, I'm playing this weekend. Oh, yeah. You love it, don't you? You love it. I really do, yeah. Yeah, I know you do. Okay. Is that it, Gavin? Yeah, it was just cup games this weekend. Excellent. Okay. Well, let's talk about it then. Gothy touched on earlier the Sharks game. So, there's going to be no European knockout rugby for the Dragons. They will be at 29-9 by the Sharks at a very wet and windy Raleigh Parade. It was pretty bloody awful, to be honest. Well, it was a bit of a storm. So, fair play to those who turned up. It was 3,000 odd, something like that. So, um, fair play to those, because it was bloody horrific. Dragons led for most of the first half, but Dane Black and Jared Ross had blue chances before Jaden Hendrickson knocked their niche barged over just before halftime. Kye Evans kicked Dragons to within three points, but Gerber and Kobler, LaRue Roots and Werner Koch all crossed late to inflict a harsh scoreline. So, Gav, there we go then. No more European knockout rugby. It was a game we had to win. We failed. What was your take on that game? Well, so, as I alluded to earlier, I did an instant reaction for the rap social media, and I described it as being very Dragons-y. Yeah, you can say that a lot about many games this season. I also quoted the disability rights activist Helen Keller in the same conversation, but talked about optimism. Yeah, it was very Dragons-y, wasn't it? We looked great. I thought briefly Jared Ross had scored the greatest try in the history of all rugby. And at which point the game should have been cancelled, because what would have been the point of continuing? But then the referee, honestly, I get it. But come on, mate, don't. Why are you spoiling that? That's the greatest try I ever scored, and you've ruined it. But Gav, he wasn't a try, was he? He did ground it. He jumped on top of it. You couldn't give that. Do you think I should have been given that try? Well, right. Do I think you should have been given? Yes, it should have been given. Was it a try? No. But, you know, would be my take on it. But again, and I'm going off the tangent here slightly, you know the film Encanto? You know that song about too much pressure? Well, that's what happened in the end. We had pressure, but we didn't apply it. And then when they got pressure, it was like a vice, and they wouldn't know. And Le Groble, the second row, you know, he is quite the specimen, isn't he? So athletic. Yeah, yes. I don't know about you, Gav, but, and I said this on the wrap podcast, I don't think that scoreline was a true reflection of that game, because I thought that for large periods of that game, we went toe to toe with a very strong and physical sharp team that included, you know, World Cup winners. And let's not forget as well, 69 minutes gone, we was only 12-9 down. We were still very much in the game. But the problem was once Malotti was up, was it Groble? Le Groble. Le Groble, yeah. Once he scored that try then of Sergey Omelette, it did kind of kill the game. And then those last two tries then, they were so soft, really soft, weren't they? And it made the scoreline far worse than what it was. And it was a bit like the Bulls game and the original Sharks game, not the Bulls, the Lions, when we played Shetland Bass Rugby, basically. And Ray Frohner about, they ran it back at us. You know, I think they were good performances. I will say it because I said on the verse previously, I thought Leon Brown held his head. He did alright. I mean, you could say he was up against. Yeah, yeah. I think he held his end up in the scram there. And I was having this conversation with V from Blood Monday and he said, you know, Harry Ackerman looks a player. And I totally agree. Was he 18, 19? He did not care. You know, he was giving the cardio arm a hard time, which is really impressive. A 19-year-old kid giving a World Cup winner, you know, a previous World Cup, a hard old time. But then, you know, there were definite weaknesses for me. And we don't like being negative about the Dragons because that's not what we're here for. But a few players, I think, were not at the races. Would you agree there, Jamie? Yes, I would. But for me, I think it was two key moments. And it happened in the first half that really swung momentum, I think. So that Jared Rosser try. It's funny because, like I said, I was at Rodney Parade. We watched it. I had Jason Forster next to me, former Newport and Dragon legend. When he touched down, we both loved each other. It just didn't look right from where we were. Then you probably grounded it. And then when you saw it on the big screen, because even after they took the conversion, which a lot of people didn't understand that rugby has changed now. So it used to be that you had to take the conversion from not to review it. Once the conversion, then you can't review it. But it's changed now. So even if the conversion is taken, they can still review it and go back. So a lot of people didn't quite understand that. But I knew it wasn't going to be given because I could see from my seat where I was that you're not probably grounded. And that was a huge moment. It was so frustrating because he did all the hard work. And he was staying black. He froze down ridiculously loose pass to Luke Harnowan. He booked for that field. He did so well to track back, gather the ball, beat those two defenders, the pace he showed. He did all the hard work. But it was a carbon copy of what we saw against Cardiff, wasn't it? He had more time than he realised. All he had to do was to put his hands on the ball. I know it's easy for me to say because I'm not about this, but he had time to just... I don't think he needed to dive on the ball like that. If he put a finger backwards on the ball, it would have been given. It was frustrating. But is that not the case of being a Dragons fan? Right now, not always, but right now, we are a very frustrating team because we can go toe-to-toe with a team full of South African World Cup winners and, you know, hold our own. And then we'll just crumble. And what we can't deal with... Well, I think there's two elements. When we have the foot on the throat, we don't press it hard enough. And when we are under pressure, we crumble. Yeah, absolutely. And then the other key moment was Alshunys going at it right on the stroke of half-time. I'm sat there thinking, just hold out now. I know they were hammering away in L22 and you could feel that they were going to score. And then when he went off, it was a bit of a sucker punch there. But yeah, a really frustrating game. I don't think this was a bad performance, but obviously, you know, we were right in the game, 69 minutes. But then, of course, once they score, that's right. And then the wheels come off, don't they? So, you know, Martinez gets a yellow card, you know, a disciplined sort of... We were lucky not to get a yellow card prior to that, though, because if I dripped a drip of pressure and, you know, Martinez is not a thinker, bless him. You know, he's a good scrubber. He is not a thinker. Neither is Tame Basham. But I thought the back row were really hard. They did, yeah. It was just those tries at the end that made the scoreline look worse than what it was. It did make it look harsh. But I've got to be honest, I'm really disappointed and frustrated of our European campaign, because it started so well. We got five points against Oyina. And we should have beaten Poe. We should have beaten him. We were beaten right at the end. But you're thinking, actually, we got a bonus point out to that. So that puts us in a good position on six points. Then you go up to Seba and you're thinking, well, let's get the job done. You know, we know Seba improved. We've spoken about Seba a lot. They've got good players. We knew it was going to be a tough test of Badani's skin, but we didn't end up in it. We should always be beating Seba. I don't care what anyone says. I know a lot of people are saying Dragons, you know, are on the same level, worse than Seba. In my mind, these are one of the teams we should always look to be beating and targeting Seba. Even though they've improved, those are the games you've got to win. We didn't end up in the second half. And then we end up in a situation where we have to beat the Sharks. And you know the Dragons struggle under pressure. So if we have to win a game, it's highly unlikely we won't. I wanted us to go to that Sharks game, not having the pressure. You don't have them already qualified. You know what I mean? Yeah, like the Ospreys. So they are the brilliant winners of that. They're absolutely superb. But that was a free hit for them in some ways, because they've already qualified. You know, it's not the end of the world for them if they've lost, but fair play to them for the result. But for us, it was just deeply disappointing. And I have to say, when the European fixtures were announced in pre-season, I looked at that and barely my four teams come out and I thought, yeah, we won't qualify. It did not enter my mind that we weren't qualified from that. Are you surprised, Gav, that we haven't made it? I thought we would qualify. I thought we would beat INR, because, you know, no-one can be a man of, you know, stereotypes, but French teams don't travel well. So I thought we'd beat INR, and I thought we'd beat Zebra, and I thought we could get something out of the Sharks. And I thought we'd probably lose at Pole, because, you know, they do well in the top 14, and it's a hard place to go. So, yeah, it was disappointing, but the season has been disappointing, hasn't it? Maybe, you know, we're halfway through the season. Maybe we went into it, you and I, I'm thinking, rather than Dragons, you and I went into it perhaps a little too optimistic. And that's very unlike me. That is very unlike me. But I did, I looked at the fixture scheduling, and I didn't, I thought Sharks were going to be the toughest opponent, if I'm being honest. I thought that'll be the one. But I thought, well, if we've already qualified by then, or we need to just get a point out of it, it won't be so bad. But once we went into that game knowing that we had to win, it was always unlikely that we wasn't going to, wasn't it? But I think we went, you know, you and I went into the whole season optimistically, not just Europe. I know. You know, no judges of nothing. No. Before we wrap up, I just want to say this one thing though. So, I was at the game, as you know, and I met the co-owners of the Dragons, okay? So, I met David Buttress in person, we found the part, but I met him in person. I met David Wright. I also met Paul Turner, who's there as a consultant, of course, and Jason Forster was there. I was up in the director's box. And what I would say to the supporters... Clang. They've named up their clang. I won't tell you, I'm not going to tell people how I got there. It's nothing to do with Buttress even, because everyone keeps saying, yeah, Buttress is best buddy. It's not true. I wish I was, but it's not true. I'm not. So, I'm going to say something though, which is going to really annoy Dragon supporters, and it's the same old story that we've heard a million times, okay? We have got to be patient, okay? Because, and look, I understand if I was listening to this, thinking, oh, come on, Jay, we've been waiting, we've been patient the past 10, 15 years. But let's not forget, these guys have been in charge since September, okay? We've got to be patient because we are in really good hands for these guys. Now, I've had a chat to them, Gav, right? There is a plan in place for this club, okay? I can't say, because obviously a lot of it was off the record. There is a plan in place. They are fully aware of the challenges of this club, and believe you me, they are just as frustrated with the season and the results as we are as supporters, because there was a lot of effing and jesting going on in that director's box about that result afterwards and about the season as a whole. They are deeply frustrated. They want to make this work. They're very passionate. They're very committed, and I can tell you, they are determined to turn things around, and we as supporters, I'm going to say, no, we've got to be patient and let these guys do what they have to do to turn it around. Now, there's going to be some changes on the field and off the field. There may be one or two, I would say, unpopular decisions, okay? But they have got to rip it up and start again. I would believe you me, these guys are really determined to do that, and I'm glad I've seen it from the other side now, because the things that we say at games about the front five, certain players and all this, they say it as well. They are fans, like I saw it from the other day. They are just like us. They're fans, and they want the best for this club. So I'm convinced even more now, after spending time with these guys, that we are in the right hands, and unfortunately, it is another patience game, I'm afraid. I hate saying that to drive us forward, because we've heard that a million times, but we're in good hands now, only compared to other boards and other previous owners. I feel that we are finally in good hands, but I'm afraid that we are just going to have to ride this out and let the guys do what they've got to do and make those changes. But yeah, I'm afraid we are going to have to be patient about that. I would totally agree. From our conversation with David Buttis, he's a great man. And when I discovered he spent half his time in Apervale, I became even more a fan of his. But you know, these are people who will invest. And the thing is, you don't put money into rugby to make money, because if you are planning to do that, there's no money. But these are people who want the best for our club and for their club. And David Wright, who's probably not as public as David Buttis and putting himself out there. Now, he's a man of great, you know, he's played for Pontypool, Newbridge now. He's very passionate, you know, he has a lot of strong opinions, you know, about the game and about where the Dragons should be going. Like I said, I can't say it on this part, but he's going to be a big driving force. I feel that he's going to be the main man. Like you'll see Buttis sort of, he's the public face. We all know and associate David Buttis with the Dragons, but I think the real driving force is going to be David Wright. And let's not forget as well, this is their money now that they're putting into the club. This isn't WRU money anymore. It was different in the past, but it's WRU money, it's different. When you're putting your own money into something, you want to see results. You want to make it work. I believe they are desperate to turn this around. They know the challenges, they share our frustrations as supporters, and they're determined to make it work. But like I said, we just have to be a little bit patient now and just ride out this very difficult storm that Welsh Rugby, because we're all in the same boat, Welsh Rugby is in this very difficult storm, we've got to ride it out. So, yeah, I just wanted to say that as well, because I've seen it from both sides now. I've seen it from the directors and I've seen it from supporters, and we all share the same goal, we just, we're desperate to see the Dragons do well. And I think if we're having this same conversation this time next year and there's no green shoots, then we can all start getting a bit antsy. But right now, I think we just have to wait and we have to wait, you know, and the green shoots will be small and it will be very slow to rise, but they will come, I've no doubt about that as well. Yeah, just the hope that kills you, I know that, I'm fully aware of that. We as Dragons fans, we have suffered more than any other, you know, fans from the other regions can piss and moan about the dark times they've gone through, but no one has suffered like us. It's tough, it's really tough being a Dragons supporter. If we weren't already called the Dragons League, this pod should be called, It's the Hope That Kills You. You know, it's the most Dragons thing ever. I know, I know. So there we are, and no knockout rugby, as I said, for the Dragons, which is a shame, because apparently, according to Chris Tillman from the Argus, he said we could have had Bayon at home, which would have been a nice little money spinner for a start, you know, a little bit of boost of income, and it would have given us, I suppose, something to look forward to, knockout rugby, and now, I guess the aim for the rest of the season now has to be trying to avoid finishing bottom of the URC, because, you know, I said this on the mat before as well, the Sharks are not a good team. Yes, they've got world-class players, and they've got world cup winners, but as a team, I don't think they're particularly good, but at some point, you do expect them to pull away from the bottom. They're not going to stay bottom for the rest of the league, I can tell you that now, and we are probably going to get dragged at the bottom, but for us now, it's trying to salvage this season and not finish bottom, but it's looking quite difficult. When you see the fixtures we've got coming up, I mean, our next game is Glasgow away, and that terrifies me, considering the patterns they've given us over the years. Yeah, we have to beat them, yes, because I can't cope with Johnny. I know, but you look at our fixture list, okay, right, so it's Glasgow away, then it's Ulster away, we've got the Bulls at home, Bulls are flying, they're a really, really good team. Now, we've got a Zebra at home, no excuses. I'll always say that, we've got to beat Zebra at home. Benetton away, it's going to be very difficult, they're a proper serious team now, excellent team now, they've really turned things around, which that's why I'm hoping Dragons could do one day, because remember when Benetton used to be laughing stock, remember when they used to keep losing all the time, and look at them now. Why can't that be us? Why can't that be the Dragons? One day, it will be. Will it though? I don't know, I wish, I wish, that's the dream anyway, to turn things around. And then we've got Connacht at home, they're a good team, Storm are at home, Ospreys away, could be being played in Bridgend, because they seem to be playing in Bridgend a lot lately, they're playing their European last 16 game at Bridgend, aren't they? Is Bridgend even really their region? Yeah, Leafs wanted Bridgend, didn't they? Yeah, I always thought Bridgend was Celtic Warriors, and then most of the Celtic Warriors stuff got swallowed up into… Yeah, but it's sort of got compressed into the Ospreys region then, didn't it? I thought it was all swallowed up by the Blues, Blues, then not Cardiff. Because Ponty were Celtic Warriors, and then when they went, sort of, they came under Cardiff Blues then, and yeah, they were Cardiff Blues at the time, and yeah, that did not go to plan. And then we got the Scarlets, yeah, and then we got the Scarlets at Judgement Day, and the Cardiff City Stadium, so you look at those fixtures, and again, I'm not trying to be doom and gloom, I am trying to be positive, but I am doing that thing I go through, Gav, where I look at fixtures and I think, I don't know where the next win is coming from, particularly. Maybe I've had a bump on the head this week, but we could win four of those, conversely, yeah, conversely, we could also win none of them, and that's the problem. So we could, we could, he says, we could beat Connacht at home, we could beat Zebra at home, we could beat Ospreys away, we could beat Scarlets at Judgement Day, so we could win four, but conversely, we could lose all four of those as well, and all the other games. Yeah, so, fingers crossed anyway, but as for the fixtures and the schedule now, it's looking, it's going to be pretty difficult, but I think Dragos, I would just go, well, they asked it, I'll fully concentrate on the URC, and let's try to salvage some pride and not finish bottom in the league, because that would be nice if we managed to stay above the bottom in there. And I don't want to single out players or anything else, but we need to work out a thing for 10, because I know Angus has been injured. So I spoke to Angus, yeah, I spoke to Angus on Sunday, I met him at the Sharks game, and he told me he would be available for the Glasgow game, and that's very good news, and look, you know how much I like Will Reid, the Bay Tans, he did struggle, I'm afraid, on Sunday, some of his kicking, in his difficult conditions, and I have absolutely no problem with him, but in route to ball, because in those conditions, that's exactly what you have to do, as much as people don't like seeing, you know, kicking, that's what you have to do. Unfortunately, Gary, I thought some of his kicks were aimless, and I don't think he controlled the game very well at all. And it was about halfway through that game, and I was watching it on TV at home, and my wife is not interested in my views on rugby, so I was telling the dog, but I've worked out what Will Reid's issue is, that he's got all the talent, he's got all the ability, what he doesn't have is game management at the minute. Well, come Gavin, you should remember how young he is, so hopefully that will come, as I said, I am a big Will Reid fan, but to me, I felt that, you know, he lacked that game management and control, and some of his kicks were aimless, as far as I perceived, but yeah, hopefully he'll bounce back, and hopefully Angus O'Brien will be back for the Glasgow game, as you said. Right then, I think we'll wrap it up there, we are planning to be back next week, hopefully we'll have Chris Kirwan from the South Wales Argos join us, just to have a chat about the Dragons and the season so far, so he's very busy at the moment covering Newport County, we've got Man United, of course, at Rodney Pride this Sunday, LBD is going to be a great occasion, looking forward to that one, but yeah, we are going to have Chris hopefully next week, so yeah, thank you to Ian, thank you Gav, as always, it's been an absolute pleasure, we will be back next week and we'll speak to you all soon. 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