Cardiff Central - Talking things over

The Cardiff Central Podcast discusses recent news and signings for Cardiff Rugby. They talk about the signing of Josh McNally, a veteran lock who brings leadership and experience to the team. They also mention the appointment of Darren Allinson as head of recruitment. The hosts are excited about the upcoming Challenge Cup fixtures, particularly the game against Bristol at the Millennium Stadium, although there is some controversy surrounding it. Overall, they are optimistic about the team's prospects and the new additions to the squad. Welcome to the Cardiff Central Podcast. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Cardiff Central Podcast, as you can tell with me being back in the hot seat, we're taking a break from our summer special series of guests. I am joined by both Dan and Carwyn. How are you doing, gentlemen? All good. I'll let Dan go first, because my video is going way behind me. Yeah, all good here, enjoying the one day of summer. And now that the rugby's come to an end, pretty much don't have to watch another weekend of Wales, making it quite miserable in between two quite good test matches. Yeah, I know the most I watched of the game was 20 minutes in the amusement park of Butlin's Minehead. So it's probably a slightly better way of experiencing it than it is. But we'll get on to that later. First of all, let's go through some news. So over the last couple of weeks, Cardiff has signed Josh McNally from Bath, veteran lock, veteran lock, exactly the sort of Balkan scrum that we've been crying out for for years. So good signing, gents. Very much so, I think, personally. Yeah, I agree. I think from a player perspective, he's big, which is always a plus on the Cardiff pack. But he's, as he's coming towards sort of the latter part of his career, he's become a full on sort of tight head lock. He was maybe a four and a six earlier in his career. But yeah, he's very up and down now. He's going to give us a bit of an edge in there. Physicality wise, good line out forward as well. But beyond that, then it's a bit back to what Jocky said when he came on our pod towards the back end of the season about looking for good people to fit in. You know, he's been Bath captain, he's got loads of experience. He's a sergeant in the RAF. So he brings that level of discipline and good communication to his game as well, which I think would be massive off the field. And obviously, lock is not somewhere we're particularly blessed at depth wise at the moment. But I think he'd be great for somebody like Teddy as well to bounce off as he comes through and a couple of the other young forwards from around the pack generally. So yeah, can't fault that piece of business, I don't think. Yeah, the leadership bit is the bit that stands out for me. And I think he's captain Bath, so he sounds like me. And you look at that squad now, you're probably looking at Belcher as the one standout leader, sort of captain leader, really. Ben Thomas, I know, has done a fair bit of it this season, but he's still a young guy learning his position, or youngish guy positions as well. But then you talk about Ray Lido is probably the only other leader in that camp or experienced guy. So it's good to get someone else in there who can marshal the troops, pile on the pen and get the ducks in order and help things out there. So I think he's a very good signing for Cardiff going forward. Yeah, I think we're all agreed. So Dan, do you just wanted to confirm something that was mentioned off hand by Dickie in the great interview you two did the other week? Yeah, so Dickie mentioned that the club still haven't put it out yet. So I don't know if they're like forgot about it or what, but Darren Allinson's come in as head of recruitment. Former Cardiff Scrimmagh played a bit in 2005, 2007, somewhere around there he played for us. He went on to play for London Irish, I think quite a bit he was. But since retiring in 2019, he's worked as an agent for four or five years now and comes in as our head of recruitment. So good will to bring somebody in from in that role, knows how to work the agents and what they're after. Good contacts, I'm sure, globally as well from that time in his career. So I think it takes a bit of stress away from jockey, allows him to concentrate a bit more on the rugby and puts a rugby person in charge of recruitment as well. Sometimes I think there's been some accusations level that it comes a bit too much from top level at the club who aren't so so rugby focused people. So, yeah, I think that's a smart pick up and another good spend of new money from the owners as well. Yeah, absolutely. And then next bit of Cardiff news is the Challenged Cup sections being released, which sees us going, starting off with an away trip to Lyon for hosting Toyota Cheetahs before Christmas. And then after the Test of Derbys, we're away to Birbignon and then post-con at rugby in a URC clash, which I have made no secret. Conor at home is one of my favourite fixtures, usually because it's a belting game, although admittedly last season's was a buck in that trend. Before I get your thoughts, I just want to ask one question. Why don't French teams want to come to Cardiff anymore? Because I'm pretty sure this is three seasons in a row now where we haven't had a home fixture against a French side. Yeah, I don't actually know what that is about. Well, it's two decent trips. I think the headline for a lot of people is going to be no Amsterdam, because that's what everybody wanted, to go to Amsterdam to play the Cheetahs. But two, I did Lyon twice, I think, and that's a really good trip down there. Good city, good ground as well. Put a good match day on. Not done Birbignon. Unfortunately, I think circumstances will prevent me doing that this year, but that would have been a really good trip, and I think quite a lot of people have been exploring weird and wonderful ways to get down there. Yeah, I think Birbignon's a great trip. I still can't get over the fact you've got a draw, then you don't know who you're playing. I can't say, it frustrates me so much, because when you're working it, you're writing these groups, and you're writing, oh, this team, this team, this team, and then the group they may play. It's such a difficult concept. And frankly, I really wish they went back to the old concept. But that's by the by, moving on. I think, yeah, some lovely trips there, Lyon and Birbignon. And yeah, like you say, Conor, there's always a stonking game in Cardiff. Normally, a card or injuries or something going on for Cardiff. So hopefully, everyone stays fit on the park and healthy for that one, and it could be a good game at Cap. Yeah, absolutely. I believe, yeah, I think Cheetahs have been interesting, because I think we're about 50-50 against them from their time in the Pro40. Any other news that people want to bring attention to? No, I will mention briefly the Bristol game at the Millennium Stadium. I don't think the club are happy. I think let's put it that way, that it wasn't mentioned at the PRB. Obviously, it probably affects us slightly more than the other pro sides who equally are not happy as well that it wasn't brought up, but it should be added. But yeah, with it being right next door, I think it's just, you know, Dickie was only on a couple of weeks ago saying how good the relationship was now and it's improved and all this sort of stuff. And Abbie Tierney herself was doing the media rounds after that sort of strategy that wasn't really a strategy was pushed out. And yeah, saying, you know, it's all about working together and collaboration and stuff. And then they go and book Bristol playing a game right on our doorstep. I mean, whether there's been some debate about whether it's actually an issue or not, I'm not going to get into that now, but I think everybody can agree that the simple fact that they didn't even bother telling like the club and the first that everyone else heard about it was when it was announced is just mind boggling really. It's very much. We didn't ask you because we knew you'd say no, but we really wanted to do it this time. Yeah. Can you remember which weekend it is? It's Saturday the 10th of May. So it's the first weekend that we're in South Africa at the end of next season. So, you know, you could argue it's a good way to get some Welsh fans in watching watching live rugby because, you know, after all, based on the things I see on Twitter, you know, if one English team in Wales is a good thing, then two English teams must be twice as good. We'll get twice as many people into it. But everyone keeps telling me that they're going to go support Gloucester and Bristol all the time anyway. So, you know, they don't even have to travel. I didn't ask the concern. There is an angle that it brings money in and, you know, it kind of might, I don't know, in some weird way, boost Welsh rugby. If you go in and watch a game at the Millennium Stadium, you might fancy going to watch another Welsh game. But the other aspect of it is that it's inviting what could be seen as a competitor into our own backyard to steal fans away. They're not going to steal week in week out fans, but there's a lot of in South Wales of sort of floating voters, if you like. And Bristol is not that far away. At the end, you know, my parents both work in Bristol, live in Cardiff. They go back and forth every day and people will travel. I drive back and forth to Cardiff. Harley, you travel a long way to go and watch Cardiff games as well. You know, people will go if they want to. They don't have to go every week, but Ashton Gate's a pretty good match date. And Bristol have some great fixtures. Yeah. It's pretty good. On a Friday afternoon, you can get the train from Cardiff into Temple Meads and get a bus up to the ground. And it's quite a good day out. And so, yeah, Bristol in their press bump thing related to it, we're very specifically clear that they're here to engage new audiences. So, yeah, I'm not I'm not sure the wisdom of that on the WIU's part other than a money grab, really. It's not anything. Sorry. It's not, though, is it? Like there's nothing. There's no other reason to borrow money, the money. And you just have to look at the financial situation WIU are in. It's not, you know, there's no, they're not keen to expand the game. It's nothing to do with, you know, we're not talking about Fiji coming down here. We're talking about, or I don't know, Romania or Turkey or whoever. You know, we're talking about Bristol Bears or Establish Club. It's just a money grab. It's an attempt to get money in. And like the hole they're in, they're looking at money from anywhere. And there's two ways to look at it, I suppose. And you can look at it from the that aspect, which I assume all the regions are going to look at. And you're trying to compete with that. And Cardiff are in South Africa, which is bizarre. You know, you just said earlier, you know, imagine imagine a situation five years ago where Cardiff are playing a club game in South Africa. And then Bristol are playing in the Millennium Stadium or Principality Stadium. That's about bizarre to think about. But on the flip side, if looking forward, this is something that happens more regularly. So they get four or five games and say they raise two and a half million hypothetically from those games. I don't know the figures. No one knows the figures as far as I know, or have been told. But hypothetically, you raise two and a half million from those, that does go a little bit way to solve that funding deficit and that funding gap that they're looking at. And if that helps to save a region, or maybe not save, but help find a funding model that suits all four regions or three regions, I can see where they're going for it. And there is benefit in the long term. I think it's not an ideal situation, but I don't think we live in that ideal world at the moment. So I think needs muster to some extent. And then sort of the heart of the precious thing is Deep Sea have announced that Scrum 5, what specifically the Sunday show, is moving to iPlayer only. That'll be fronted up by Lauren Jenkins. So they're still going to cover live URC games, so whichever games they get on this Friday night, that'll still be live on BBC2. But the Scrum 5 Sunday, the highlight show, and non-live games that they show, that'll all be on iPlayer only. Which is just a way of cutting cloth and trying to save money. So as a former BBC freelancer, any thoughts on that one that you're willing to share? Or are you still hoping for a... I was very subtly looking away from the camera to avoid that answer. Why do you think I picked on you? As someone who's freelanced for the BBC, it's sad, I think, is the first and foremost thought. I know a lot of people who work on that show and a lot of time goes into a lot of things that go on to the show. You talk about certain aspects that have been on that for decades. I know everyone has their detractors and everyone has their critics, but I grew up watching that week in, week out, since I've been watching rugby, to be honest. I do remember it having an analysis of a Swansea game back in, whatever that would have been, 2002, 2003. So that's basically been my childhood and livelihood of rugby is watching Scrum 5 after a weekend of seeing some of the games. I think it is a sad reflection of where we are. It is a sad reflection of the cost-cutting. As far as it being a cost-cutting mechanism, I'm not 100% sure. It might just be a simple thing of viewership isn't enough. I don't know the numbers. I haven't had this discussion, to be honest. But I'm just saying that it might not have been as much about cost-cutting as if they've got to focus on what brings viewers in and maybe it doesn't deserve that primetime slot anymore, which is a sad reflection of perhaps where the game is in Wales, perhaps where focus has gone in Wales. But, you know, I've got utmost respect for people who work on that show, the behind the scenes. And Lauren, obviously herself, I think she's a brilliant host and has done some brilliant interviews on that going forward. So, yeah, to be honest, and this isn't a non-offensive, I think it's a sad reflection of where it is at the moment. But I'm not surprised either. I think it's probably an acrobatic depiction of where I'm at at the moment. Yeah, anything you want to add there, Dan? No, not really. I think because I'm cool and dang with the kids, with a V on the end, I watch everything on iPlayer. So it's basically no change for me. Well, it's based in England, so the only way I can watch it is, and same with when Scrimfiles do the live games, it's on iPlayer and I'm constantly infuriated because it's, like, 10 seconds behind them. Yes, and from the Australian and Welsh part, it's just saying, like, oh, check this out. I was like, oh, that's not good. Yeah, there it is. Unless I put up, that's a BT box issue, not an iPlayer issue, I should add. So it just seemed to have a really bad latency. Anyway, so moving on, so obviously no games for TIEF, although they did officially confirm the two pre-season friendlies against Ealing Trailfinders and Bath that we found out about, thanks to Seb. But the boys have been back in action. We have seen some fantastic photos of them running up a bit of sand and pushing, pumping some iron, and some fantastic first pics of Gabe the Gunshammer Webb. So, you know, is everyone starting to get in the mood ready for the next season? Or does it feel like we've barely finished the last one? Well, we haven't. We haven't finished the last one. We've finished this season. I can't believe they're back already. It's a bit mad, to be fair. But yeah, pictures are looking solid. My player notes, Gabe Heng Webb is fit in all senses of the word, and I definitely would if he's up for it. I thought Joe Cowell looks like a bit of a beast in the photos so far, the kind of tight head. Danny Southworth, the new loose head from Exeter, just looks large, looks like a very large man. And what else did I make a note of? Dan Thomas's long hair is looking good, enjoying his hair. And then also there was the mention, so we've got no, we'll come on to this, we've got no nines in the squad, obviously, because Bevan's away. So they've got in training with them a lad called Rhys Price, who's been on some of the photos. And having done some quick digging on him, he is from sort of Merthyr Aberdare, top of the valleys way. Played with us 16s and 17s, went to Hartbury, which is where the link with Johnny Goodridge, who's now coming as skills coaches when he was at Hartbury. He's been playing for, he's played a couple of times in English Championship for Hartbury seniors last season. And he's most recently been playing for Box Hill RFC, which is a club in Melbourne. And they play in the, well, they've made the Jewish Shield, which I feel like they're copying the name of it, but maybe we've copied them. I don't know. Which is the sort of Melbourne equivalent of the same competition that Jamie Hill's going to play in in Sydney, that sort of top of the domestic tier in regional Australia. But now he's back and spending a few weeks with us in pre-season, by the looks. That sounds good. Hopefully he's going to think. Other exciting, other prompting news is seeing photos of Tulipi Falasso out and about and Thomas Ginn as well, looking like. So hopefully that means that they're both on track to having a part to play at least in the start of the season. Especially with Big Mac being away with Wales, it looks like he's going to be away with Wales for the foreseeable. My other pre-season note actually, just to finish on it, it's great to see Gwilym Bradley back as well. He looked in pretty good nick, but yeah, just great to see him back training after, well, I thought it's going to be a long old time if he plays in pre-season. It'll be close on two years, I think, since he last played. Yeah, exactly. I mean, let's be honest, when I remember saying about how he needed the seven and this one, what about Gwilym Bradley? I'll be, shamefully, I forgot. I forgot about him because it's been just that long. I wasn't even sure he was still in the squad. I thought, you know, he'd be moved on to the side. Shall we discuss the elephants in the room then? Actually, no, we'll ignore that. Shall we talk about the Cymru under-20s boys and the Wales women before we go on to the real horrible elephant? So, Wales women have won a game by a margin, which is quite good against their Spain. Did either of you two catch the game? Yeah, I was there. It was a squeaky bum time in the first half. I had so many errors in the first half. There will be a lot of positives in this, but first half, lots of errors, lots of mistakes. I think there were a couple of missed tackles in the backfield and things that we've seen in the Six Nations, but then second half, to be fair to them, whatever that rocket that they were giving in the halftime messages, it was clear, concise. Plans were, you know, they had a dominant forward pack that were literally scrummaging Spain off their own ball. Dominant ball, as you'd expect. Front five were carrying well, and then they managed to get a bit of nice play in the back. I thought Jenny Hesker, best performance we've seen from her in a Wales shirt so far, I thought she was very good, particularly in the second half when things opened up. She looked assured, she looked composed. A couple of others, Kerryn Leake, and it was her 50th cap, and she was carrying really well, so she was desperate for a try, unfortunately didn't manage to get it. And yeah, back three, I thought there was a real good balance in there in general. When you talk about Carys Cox scoring a hat-trick, I really do like Lisa Neumann as an option, because I think her size and ball-carrying ability allows her to come off the wing a lot better. And then you add in that back row, which is just, you know, it is beautiful. Like, honestly, it is one hell of a back row with Butcher's calendar, Beth Lewis, and then you've got the small matter, or rather, not so small matter, Gwenan Hopkins to come off the bench. And, you know, you're doing all that while shoving Georgia Evans into the second row, because you can. It's a really great team that performed well, particularly in the second half, and if that's the level we've got going forward into WXV2, I'm really excited, because that's two wins on the bounce. That's progress. You can see players individually progressing, Jenny Hesker, for instance, as we mentioned, or I mentioned. And then you look at some other players coming forward as well, going into the future. It's going to be really exciting, and I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, absolutely. Anything you want to say, Dan? Yeah, I totally agree with everything Taron said there. I think my only, like, slight caveat I would slightly add is that I thought Spain fell off a cliff fitness-wise second half. I thought the difference between a programme that's been professional for a while, and I mean, I can't profess to be an expert on Spanish women's rugby, but I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest they're probably not professionals. The difference between the pro SNC and the amateurs slash semi pro SNC told a bit their second half, especially in what was actually quite a sunny day in Cardiff. But yeah, Cameroon just needed a win, just needed a win, and it was a real good confidence booster going into WXV2. I think they'll be in a much better position going into that than they were going into WXV1, weirdly, last season, despite having done quite well in the Six Nations. But yeah, I think that because they'll have a bit of a chip on their shoulder still from the Six Nations, keen to prove a point, but a little bit of confidence in that win as well. So hopefully it's a nice balance. I think they've got, is it two friendlies they've announced before WXV2 as well? Yeah, yeah. So I was going to get on to it. So obviously that winning that game not only qualifies Wales winning for the 2025 World Cup in England, but it also means that they are now in WXV2, which is probably the right level for them really. So yeah, so there's two sort of pre-fixtures. So the second of which is at Dave Parade on the 20th of September. And then the week before, I can't, unfortunately I can't remember off the top of my head if it's Friday or Saturday night, they are at the highest stage in playing Scotland women. And then the Dave Parade women, they're playing Australia, which I think is a weird pair of opponents. Seems like one of whom will be playing, Australia will be playing eight days later in South Africa. So maybe they're hoping that, you know, Australia women will be very knackered after travelling before going down. And then Scotland, who they play every year anyway, you know, like you thought the point of this was to get more things. Anyway, so going on to our opponents, so as I've alluded to, we play the Wallaroos on the 28th of September. That'll be a Saturday. And then the next two games are both on Friday. So we play Italy, another team you play every year, which again, kind of weird that they ended up in the opposite group. Normally, they kept the six nations and one side and then everyone else. Anyway, and then we finally finish up against the Sakura 15, which is the Japanese women's team on the 11th of October. That's the final. And then I think everyone gets a fourth game, but that it's sort of like first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st and the selected pools for the chance to win. Yeah, I think. It's a tough first game, isn't it? Let's be honest about it. That first game's tough, but I feel like for Wales to show they've progressed and to make it to the six nations, it's got to be at least getting into that final for WXE too, I think. They've got to be in that first place well for me. But I don't see it happening because I do think the Wallaroos are probably a little bit better but I see Wallaroos being the top of their sort of path for WXE. Yeah, well, it's difficult to see that when you think that Wales lost to the Wallaroos when the Wallaroos were down to, was it 13 for 20 minutes and 14 for pretty much 60 last year. And I would have thought Wales aren't quite to that level that they were at the end of last year at the moment. You know, as I said, we've seen two wins in the bouts. We'll see how we progress going towards the late last part of the year. But Wallaroos definitely have improved as well. They've had some good wins into their bouts. But it is very much all on that game. I think it was all on that game in WXP1 last year as well. It's quite bizarre that the two teams meet again and in such a crucial game because Wales aren't going to lose to Japan, I've got to be honest. Wales are a better side than Japan and should beat Japan. And if they don't, then serious questions should be asked. Italy is always going to be a nip and tuck game. It always has been, always will be, by the sounds of things, sadly. It'd be great to beat them by 50 points, but it's not going to happen. And then the Wallaroos are just, I agree with Harley, I think they'd be a great scalp if Wales get the win. And I don't think it's out of the question. Wales should have won last year. I think Eleanor Snowsall said that, they should have won last year. But at the moment, I think it's a stretch. So you may be looking at third and therefore is the best option if you think of how the groups are going to work out, so you play across. But yeah, so I think it is third most likely and that would be a good tournament. And then anything plus that would be a bonus. I mean, it could be quite interesting because obviously the third team in our sort of tertiary, so because WXV needs to be unbelievably complicated, you have six teams in each division and then they split into two pools, each three teams in each. And then you play the other, the teams in the other pool. So obviously we don't play Scotland or South Africa. So I think that could actually, that half could be very tight, particularly Scotland. So I think Wales are going to be looking at trying to beat, you know, at least with the Japan and the Italy games, trying to beat those teams probably more than Scotland did and then hoping maybe for a draw against the Walrus. But yeah, it should be interesting, some good rugby. It's going to be tough for Scotland, they're a good side now. Yeah, they're a very good side. They've got rid of their perennial Scottish issue of not being able to convert pressure into points and that is, um, and you know, that sort of makes them a bit terrifying there. Well, if they got, you know, if they convert all their passion from Rachel Malcolm, they'll be incredible. Yeah, I mean, that is one thing that, you know, we have some fantastic players, but we don't. One thing I was surprised at is, despite the fact she is effectively the captain because every referee treats her as such, how come the High Candidate still hasn't been officially called the Welsh captain yet? But I'm not, I'm not going for that. That's one for the, uh, WRAP Women's Board, I think. I think, I think, um, an interesting point on that. I remember putting a tweet out when I interviewed Gwenda Hopkins and said, you know, Gwenda Hopkins is going to be the next Wales, you know, one of the, she'll be a Wales captain of the future. And someone immediately said, yeah, straight right after Alex Callender. I think if Alex Callender isn't the next Wales captain, something weird has gone on. Um, she is vice-captain, as you pointed out, referees do treat her as captain and tell her to look after her own captain. Um, that was the case with Wales Italy. But, um, yeah, look, Hannah, Hannah does some brilliant, brilliant stuff as captain. And I think when Hannah came in as captain, she was the right choice. Um, whether Hannah stays as captain is probably another question longer term, but I, she was, I think she's done a brilliant job in stabilising the situation considering all that was going on at the time with the misogyny sexism. I think she's always, she has spoken really well about those situations and done really well in supporting the captaincy off the field. Um, and maybe, yeah, looking on going forward, we'll see what happens. Right. Last word for Wales women going on to Dan. Dan, do you want to then kick off the under 20s discussions? Yeah, nothing more to add. I think you covered the women quite well there, to be fair. Uh, probably pick it up a bit more ahead of WXV time. Uh, but 20s wise, uh, it's been, it's been a good tournament for, for the boys. I think actually, I think they might be a little bit disappointed results wise. Um, but the context of the twenties, I think is always that they use the six nations as more of a development few weeks to get the boys into camp, to have a look at them all. You know, I think within use like over 30 players during the under 26 nations, there was some injury element to that, but he properly rotated and, and had a look at everyone, gave everyone an opportunity. And then after they've had a good camp going into the world championship in the summer, then that's when they try and compete. And they push New Zealand all the way in the first game, uh, comfortable enough win over Spain in the second game, uh, pushed France. I don't know, pushed France, but battled hard against France is probably how I would describe the second half there. Um, and then coming up against, uh, Australia in the, the first lot of playoff games, I think they'll be disappointed. They didn't get a win there. I think they it's got a similar issue to the senior game, which we'll get onto a bit, but they, they let Australia in quite easily once or twice and, uh, but largely played some of the better rugby on the day. Um, but you know, if it's always going to be the case, it's actually going to be tough for us now to compete at under twenties level where you play a pool wise resource wise competitive, obviously it dilutes a bit at senior level where there's a bigger pool to pick from, but at twenties level, you know, you are very restricted on who you can pick and you're relying on particularly producing some big front five forwards, which we don't always have, but there's a lot to like individually from this team. I think there's been some, some really cracking performances, um, from a Cardiff perspective to start with. I think, uh, Stefan Manuel has been really impressive, stepping up 18, still 17th to the start of the tournament, um, coming in, uh, usurping the start in midfield to start at 12 and against France, uh, looks really confident with an all round game kicking, carrying, tackling, chopped a few jackals in as well as every kind of player should, um, Lucas de la Rua hasn't, hasn't had a full on chance to show off his skills. I think the back row hasn't, it's been good individually, but it hasn't fully clicked as a unit necessarily, um, with Woodman and Morse. They, I think they, they're all such dominant individual players. They haven't quite figured out the nuances of, of how to work as a team, uh, fully necessarily. Um, but de la Rua has shown plenty of his quality. I think Matthew Young's really composed a full back, uh, it's a shame to lose Hugh Anderson from the Dragons in the, after the first game, but Young's come in good kit coverage, uh, hits the line really well. They've used him in some interesting sets, kind of coming short off nine and 10 in particular. Um, and then Cody Stone, uh, has been a real interesting one on the wing as well. Kind of Tom James esque with the way he runs and his scrum cap and his pace and finishing. So he's, uh, he's been a good player to watch as well. Um, and then Harry Wilde has been up and down a fly half. I think I would describe him as, I think, um, he sees the game really well. It's just about decision-making for him. I think at key moments, does it, um, doesn't always make the right decision despite, uh, I think, yeah. So just going back on my own point there, then it's decision-making and execution. When he sees that he doesn't always execute and doesn't always see it at the same time, but he's got the disadvantage of quite a few injuries over the last 12 months, got injured at the start of the season, Mr. Loder up with the rags, then got injured at the end of the six nations and Mr. Lode of, uh, the training camp ahead of the twenties. So I think for him coming out of the twenties now, he needs an injury free run with the rags this season and super become re where you'll nail down the tensions hopefully. And, uh, and kick on from there, but overall loads of talent in the twenties team. Johnny green is a second row is a really good player. Sam Scott at tight head. Uh, I think Ian Davis is a really good nine. Louie Hennessy is the standout player outside centre, unbelievable talent. Uh, could, if, if he kicks on a bath, he could realistically play, uh, for the national team quite quickly. I think, uh, if he gets the game time, uh, he probably deserves. Um, and then mentioned you and somebody only seen a glimpse of him this tournament, but I think he's a good talent at fullback as well. He needs to change his lid. Louie, Louie Hennessy needs to, he's lost a dice roll there or something as any horrible. I haven't died. It's just a bit rich coming from. I dyed my hair blonde at a similar age, but, um, even I think mine was better. I genuinely remember going back to my house and says, I need help. Yeah. I'm quite depressed about my hair. So, um, uh, but you know, I think, um, yeah, that's, that's the one, that's the one, that's the one blabber. So the guy's not doing too bad as it, and he's, he's one hell of a talent. The car kind of green more. You look at, um, I know we were looking at a piece today for, uh, players who can step up and he's the first one you think of, um, you know, stepping up from twenties to senior rugby seems to be a common thing. If you're a center at the moment, Grady, Eddie James, uh, et cetera, but, um, um, dragon centers names escaped me all of a sudden, um, Harry Ackerman. Thank you very much. I think Harry Ackerman would have been in the equation. Had it not been for injury would have been in and around the squad. So you look at those lads, I, I can't see something that Hennessy can't do at the moment capable of playing 12 or 13. Great offloads, just great, great offloads. Um, the interesting thing will be once he steps up, does he still get that time space ability to do those offloads? That'll be the key challenge. That's the key challenge for anyone stepping up from under twenties to senior rugby. But as far as a physical specimen who gets you across the game line, but also has the smarts to play that position, geez, he looks the real deal. Um, and then, yeah, obviously the other big question is there is then what happens with Morse going forward? Um, I know that, you know, not putting words in Dan's mouth, but I've had a, I've had a chat with you that about positionally for him going forward. What, what is the best thing for him? And you look at his size. Is he, is he that eight that Gatlin's probably going to pick? I look at the profile, what Gatlin looks like. It's the six foot four lineup option generally. Um, who's that athletic build, you know, he fulfills the athleticism, uh, hands down, but it's whether he fulfills the other criteria, which perhaps he doesn't. And you may be then looking at him moving into seven further down the line, um, position obviously played against Spain and to some great extent, and he is capable of pilfering ball. He is good over the ball and also offers plenty of work rate on and off the ball to be fair to him. Um, I, I'd be interested to see what they do with him long-term because you look at that profile. It seems pretty set in Gatlin's head. You look at Falafel, Wainwright, plumb tree, there's a common thread there. And let's be honest about it. There's a reason Morgan Morris isn't getting picked in Gatlin's head, whether that's right or wrong. He's got his mindset set of what style of eight he wants. And there's a lot to be said of having a style of eight you want, you know, we've had jockey on a few weeks ago talking about his style of player for each position. And if you've got to start a player for a position, it's quite hard to change it. Yeah. And I think there'll be some chapter with Morris about, you know, cause I, I imagine the Ospreys will see him as an eight and we'll probably bring him through as an eight in the short term. I don't actually think that matters though. Um, ultimately if you watch the way Morris plays and it goes back to what I was saying earlier about the, the back row clicking or not, uh, for the twenties in defensive phase play, he, he played, he, he looks like an open side. If you didn't, I think if you watch the games and you didn't know what shirt number they were, you would suggest that Morris was the open side in that twenties team, whether he's wearing eight or seven for them, which is where the whole, uh, back row partnership is, is not quite sticking. Cause I think they're just getting each other's way essentially, particularly Morris and de la Rua. I think they're just, they're just sort of, they're occasionally at the same breakdown and occasionally neither of them are there. They're not, they haven't quite worked out the sort of nuances of that in the way that, you know, Warburton and Lyddiott and Warburton and Tipbrook did, uh, so well for, for those years, the national team and, you know, that's to be expected, you know, they don't play together particularly often at this stage of their career and they're still both very young, but yeah, I think for the Ospreys then I think it'll look quite similar that he, you know, other than where you pack down at the scrum in open play, it doesn't, doesn't particularly matter then. So, uh, yeah, I don't think there's any danger of him, you know, paying eight to the Ospreys and that impacting how he goes at seven for the national team. And I think the way it's going for the national team, you look at the profile of seven that we're going for now, and you look at Tommy Raphael's perhaps struggles on this tour a bit, you know, we're not, we're not a big, powerful physical pack anymore. We don't have Alan Wynne-Jones and Ken Owens and Gethin Jenkins and all these guys in there can give you real parity. You look at this Australia tour and we're not making dominant tackles where we're on the back foot quite a lot defensively, we're trying to reorganise. And so the seven, if you're going to get over the ball, you're going to need a big physical bloke because Raffles, I think slight problem is he's just the, the ideal Jackal opportunity is not presenting himself to him. And he's just being blown away by the Australian guys who are on the front foot and stepping into these big attacking breakdowns and just causing all sorts of havoc. So having a both, um, a Jack Morgan and then a Morgan Morse as your kind of bigger physical, almost like six and a half kind of guys rather than out and out sevens is sort of the way Wales seem to be going. Yeah, well, what's interesting about it, sorry, thinking ahead now you think of Ospreys and think of that back row. Um, obviously this season they played a lot of, um, James Raffey at six, or Rhys Davies earlier on in the season at six, because Jack Morgan's basically been, you know, he has played a bit, but he's mostly been injured throughout the season or Wales duty or injured. Um, so therefore you'd think Jack Morgan comes back in that six jersey tips and seven, Morris, Morse, whoever it is at eight. Um, funnily enough, the, what was a really good combination in the six nations was against Italy, where it was Delaware, Bedell, Morse, um, that worked brilliantly. You know, you could have given a play of the match to all three of them. And I think I argued at the pub afterwards heavily that it should have been Bedell. Um, perhaps he took awarded man of the match to Morse, but the, the, the situation is, I think it could be interesting going forward what that is done. And I think, you know, with a lot of these players, that positional chat is very interesting. And, um, when we come through the senior team, that's another interesting one. And when that is, uh, slightly interest, uh, slightly worrying me going forward, we're not worrying, but we'll call it cause me consternation and, and a bit of frustration as well. So, um, I think that's, that's an interesting debate to be had going forward. What is best position for a number of these players? You know, Ryan Woodman was the second row slash six and now it seems he's got it in his head that he's a six and everyone's playing him at six. And I think at the moment he's better for it, but we may see a move somewhere else later on. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you never, you never know these things. Yeah. The one problem for me is if you did want Morgan Morse as a third, and I know it doesn't necessarily play, but if you want him to play in a certain way, it's a very hard back road to get into that Ospreay's back road. There are a lot of good players. And you think you've still got Tip Rick, who's looks like he's playing some of the best rugby in his career, Jack Morgan. Um, you know, you, you know, if you've got a rat in there, if not, you've got Harry Dees as well. Um, and then Morgan Morris, who, you know, is after all the savior is the man who would save Welsh rugby. Depend on who you listen to. Despite his injuries, he's always been a big, big player for Ospreay when he's played. Yeah, absolutely. Someone I thought was worthy of a call if it hadn't been for injuries. Um, yeah, so we'll move on to the senior side then. Uh, so you've had two, two out of two defeats against Australia, two games, potentially we could have won if it hadn't been for mistakes. Uh, big question, because I think it depends who you ask. Can we see what Gatlin is trying to do? Um, no, it's the short answer to me. I, I think, well, I can see what he's trying to do short term. I think, I think there's been an obvious game plan in, in each game. They've been wildly different. There's been the big problem and they've been different again from what we were trying to do in the six nations. So you can see what he's maybe in the first game, you know, Nick Tompkins spoke about it in the week of back to basics and being boring and direct. And, and yet we were definitely boring trying to be direct in that first test. Um, it was kick heavy. It was, you know, trying to be physical on transition. It was, uh, trying to be quite direct off, uh, first phase and off, uh, off nine, generally an attack come around the corner, looking to punch holes defensively. It was coming, trying to get off the line quickly and get up in Australia faces. Didn't really work. Um, yeah, I mean, yes, we might have, we were sort of in that first test, but I never felt like we were actually going to win that first test ever. And then second test, I thought there was a real switch in the attacking intention. Kept the ball a lot more played to width a lot more that Liam Williams try, uh, comes after 24 phases. I think the staff does something like that. Um, we put pressure on them. Uh, we pulled Mason Grady inside a lot more. We used decoy runners and pullback passes quite a bit to get to the edge, um, which was better to see, but yeah, to answer the question, yes, there was like obvious little tactical nuances in each game. What, what that looks like in the medium term. I have absolutely no idea. I mean, I don't, and I don't know what he's building towards. The selections are quite different. I think the concern, you know, after Saturday, I was, I was more positive than I was after the first test, but then I'm thinking and looking ahead to the autumn. And I think that the likelihood is that the team will be totally different again, because you've got so many players who'll be back available or back fit. How do you ever build if you don't have consistency in selection? The likelihood is that with the inconsistency in selection brings inconsistency in tactics as well. I, yeah, I'm not, I'm not really sure where he's trying to get to. And yeah, it's the only, so Saturday was, was better. We could have won. There were little moments that we lost switching off after points being scored and a key moments around dead balls, but that now come with experience, but it's just, I don't know if they'll get the chance to build. And that's what worries me. It was a, it was a platform to build off, but I don't know if they ever will. Yeah. I'll start with the positives because there's a fair few. I agree. Second test is a lot better. I thought Cam, Ben Thomas, Axis worked really well. I thought some lovely textures from Cam. I know yes, he dropped the ball, which leads to Jake Gordon's try, but I thought for the majority, some lovely touches in attack, but the pass to Liam is really well weighted. There are a couple of lovely grubber kicks in behind Ben Thomas. Likewise, nice variation early doors. Okay. The Crossfield kick didn't come off, but he was trying things. He was trying little chips over the top. He was feeding the bats. Then you talk about, I think the biggest positive of this tour, Archie Griffin. The guy played, I think 142 minutes. I don't think he came off in the second test apart from his HIA. Make of that what you will as well. And he's three for three next week. Yeah. But make of that what you will on the flip side, because the positive is the guy can do it. And he showed he could do it. And actually, first test, I thought he grew into the game and got stronger as he went along. And second test, he seemed to get more into it as well. A tight head at International Rugby shouldn't be playing 74 minutes. That's my other point, really, is that you should have someone to come off the bench that you've got confidence in to be able to back that up. But I spoke to Chris Horsman beforehand and Chris Horsman was, you know, huge amounts of praise for Archie Griffin saying that he's going to bring physicality and defense, physicality and attack. I thought he offered both as defense, particularly a really nice jackal. But what he's got as well is really good hands for link play, something I didn't expect to see. And you talk about, you know, Wales have been behind all that for years, I think. That's an area where you look at Ty Furlong's role with Ireland, you look at Karl Sinclair, what Stephen Moore used to do for Australia as well, back in the day, a few years back. Wales haven't had that player who could really do it. The player that used to do it for us was quite often Beard, who, if we're being frank, is probably not the best ball carrier in the world. So didn't quite work as well. But I was really impressed with Archie Griffin and fair play to the lad. When you come off the back of what was a disappointing first test, if we're being frank and open and honest about it, to do what he did in Australia, I thought, yes, fair play to the lad, kudos. And I saw quite a bit of debate about what's going to happen with him next season. And I thought that was really interesting. And, you know, I can't think of many better places that he's going to have experience in growing and understanding the game than Bath. Like he's going to be one to watch in the future. There's my ode to Archie Griffin over. No, I was really impressed with him, for sure. And then Ellis Berman was probably the other one who came out with a lot of credit for the two tests, his kicking game. You know, it's gone up tenfold this season in general. But yeah, really impressive gameplay. I think the big thing for him now going forward is how do you get the other area of his game going? I've sort of said it a little bit on this pod before, but we've seen a lot of good kicks for him, good kicking play. Where can we get a bit more of that sniping attitude that, you know, drawing defenders in, sucking players in, getting Rio off his wing to attack that round the fringes or, you know, those bits of mind play that James Gibson Park does so well, Faf to Glirk do so well, that added level. I don't know. Thomas as well. Very good for the sniping thing. Sometimes not so good at the basic scrim play. No, exactly. And it's getting those added elements on top. But as far as it's actually a base level, you've got to blink a good line on your hands. So that's really good. The big one for me, and I've said this several times now, I just don't get the Ben Thomas Grady thing going forward. If we had Matt Sherratt talking about who his positionals are, and Ben Thomas is your 12, which he's going to be next season because, one, Simon Cancelli, two, that's what Matt Sherratt wants in a 12, is a ball-playing 12. And Grady is going to be your 13 slash wing. How on earth are they supposed to, as young men still, learn on the job in international rugby and get the experience of doing it? I think there's too much of this learning on the job situation going on at the moment. That would be my main criticism. But I don't quite see how that's going to work at international level. I'm not saying they're both not international standard players. Just I don't see how they are going to play in those positions if they're not playing in those positions regionally. Yeah, there's so many positives. But like Dan said, it's difficult to see that continuation of a plan, including with so many players up in the air of who's going to play where and that sort of thing going forward. But yeah, I was blown away by Ashley Griffin in the second set, although it was superb. One other name I want to throw in, because I think actually he's been lost in all the things. And also I feel a bit ego-inflated, because it sort of proved me right when everyone was criticising him in previous Six Nations and stuff. Chris Junzer, using him as a workhorse player, not this big ball carrier everyone was expecting. It's been great because he's just been hitting, he's hitting rugs, he's hitting people. It's great to see. There's a bit of carrying, probably still not the carrier people wanted, but now he's in that role and not that carrier role. Quite good. 90% of his length, you know, he's jumping the line, that's been quite good. I do want to say though, Ben Thomas, I thought, has equipped himself quite well at tenth. You do get a huge different dimension shift with some of the Stella when he comes on. Again, actually someone, wasn't it, Josh from Blood Mode pointed out, actually it seems to, or it might have been Squidge on that episode, but saying about how Costello coming off the bench is actually really good for Wales and it gives you that transformative, it breaks up the game plan. I thought Ben Thomas has done quite well. Sorry, on the Costello thing, we had Patchel on a few weeks ago and another pod and he was talking about the influence of coming off the bench and how much easier it is. That's why Costello looked perhaps better in some people's eyes in the first test because it was go out, show some energy and throw the ball around and try and make something happen. That's shit. Do you know what I mean? That's a ten, that's dreamland scenario, isn't it? I can only, well, I've never played that. I can only imagine. Yeah, you have it with the nines all the time. No matter who starts at nine for Wales, whoever comes off the bench is the person who should be starting the next week nine times out of ten. It's just the way things go. The Mike Phillips syndrome. No matter who was off the bench compared to Mike for about five years after 2011, they looked like the better player. However, they weren't once they started. Yeah, again, I think it's like just being able to flip the game plan around and you've had a bit more time to adapt. Yeah, I thought they were quite good. Lying out less so, throwing them all, which, you know, some people are saying there's a big learning everything up. But I think actually we've had a decent driving ball for quite a while. The problem was just getting the ball in position where we could mull it. I mean, last week we scored four tries, which is the first time in a while we've done. I was saying that, I suppose, in Scotland. Yeah, I think, I'm not sure, did we do it in Scotland? Yeah, just about in Scotland. But, you know, but, you know, some, again, on the point that, like, how often does a Gatland side score 28 points and lose? It comes back to those cheap points, doesn't it? You talked about, you know, the other bit, the lack of plan. One, well, it's not a small thing. They call it the four set piece for a reason. But it was six points effectively from restarts that was conceded. Yeah, one was a poor timing clear out. The Valentini tackle on both of us. He's lucky. I'll say that. But the plan from the reception of restarts was poor because the plan of the previous weeks was poor. There was the knock-on from Liam, I think, from a ball that went over the top. And there was a couple of things. But also, the flip side, the kick-offs themselves seemed to lack a real plan. At one stage, I wondered if they were just going long in the hope that Australia kicked the ball off the pitch because they knew how strong the diving wall was. But I think I've probably given them too much credit, if I'm not completely honest. I think there wasn't as clear and coherent a plan for the restarts as—or even the execution, perhaps. Not that I want to dig out Ben, but it did seem like it was a bit of a weird restarts plan. Yeah, I don't know. Sorry, the other point that's just jumping in, the Christ-Schönzer one. I completely agree, but he's another one. Where is he going to play next season? He's probably going to play seventh. So, I just don't get it. In fairness, since he's come back from injury, Baxter has been using him as second row or that impact second row. And also, I think if you talk about, like, you know, we've talked about with Morgan Morris about the role he plays, whether it's in the Australians, if it's the role that Gatwick wants the same. I mean, let's be fair, he's playing sixth next weekend on Friday. So, I mean, I think as long as that, you know, if that's the role he's playing, then, you know, actually, a fantastic jackal for a man who's like 73 metres tall, like, you know, in the first test. But Ben, do you want to—I'm going to give you the last word on the two tests, and then you can have the rant you've promised about Brodie's game. Well, my only last word is I agree with everything that I've said about Archie Griffin and building on from what we said about Louis Hennessy. Basically, the entire future of Welsh rugby is in the hands of Bath. So, if you are linked to Bath Rugby or you're a coach or something, please help us out and play Archie Griffin and Louis Hennessy as much as helps their development over the next two or three years, and then Wales will probably win the Grand Slam. Thank you in advance. Maybe they should be playing at the first party. Launching into Friday then, yeah, Wales are playing the Queensland Reds on Friday morning in a game which I'm sure they're all chuffed about, the Welsh lads. I'm sure they really don't just want to come home and enjoy their off-season. I'm sure they really wanted to play a super rugby side on a random Friday in Brisbane. Unfortunately, the game has been somewhat clouded by Warren Gatlin's selection of Corey Hill to start and specifically to give him the captaincy. It is an uncapped game, but Corey Hill, as I'm sure most people know, three years ago was caught up in an incident whereby he and a couple of others have gone to a house, have tried to go to a house that he rents out to presumably collect money off the tenant. They've ended up going to the wrong house and sort of smashing the door and chucking bottles at the house of a single mother with her two very young children there, causing them to fear that somebody was breaking in or going to hurt them. Beasts were called. It was not quite what people say that no charges were brought. It was dealt with via a community resolution order, which is a sort of non-judicial way of dealing with an incident rather than going through the sort of traditional criminal justice process. So it wasn't the fact that he hasn't been charged with anything, it was just dealt with in a slightly different manner than is usual. The woman, the female victim, subsequently noted that she felt quite pressured into doing that, and the police officers who had attended on the night, their demeanour changed quite noticeably when they realised that Corey Hill was indeed a Wales international rugby player. They strongly suggested that the woman take £100 given to her by one of the men for the kids, I think was the wording used on the night, and so she launched a complaint to the South Wales Police regarding their handling of the incident. At the time, Corey Hill then runs off to Japan to join the Yokohama Cannon Eagles, getting out of his Cardiff contract a year early and now plays for the 4th Division Sacom Ruggers. I think my... No, that's serious, sorry, a big promotion there. My rant is just that Corey Hill and the WIU, and I'm pretending this is the organisation, not just Hill as a person, because it should come from the organisation as well, there's been no acknowledgement of this up until this week. There's been no setting out an apology from him, there's been no taking restorative steps, and people will say, you know, what do they owe it to us, it's a private matter and stuff, but ultimately, he is playing for the national team in the sport that, maybe not by attendance or by participation numbers now, but culturally is still the national sport, and therefore, he is representing us as people and the country on the national stage, on the international stage, and that is not the type of incident he wants, and I'm not saying that he should never play for Wales again, I'm sure there are some people out there who will say that, and that's up to them. Me, personally, I'm saying that, you know, people can make mistakes, this is a pretty egregious mistake, and it's not the mistake of a young man, as I think Warren Gatlin tried to suggest today, he was 29 at the time, same age I am now, and I can tell you, I wouldn't be going around people's houses, lobbing bottles and kicking their door in whether they owe me money or not, but it is something which he's done wrong, and if he was to come out at the start of the tour, and it's stated that I have done this incident, and the WIU came out with him and said, you know, we accept that this was wrong, it's an apology for him, we've accepted that, and we think he can play, he could donate his tour fee to women's aid, or something along those lines, I think that would be a nice gesture, I'm sure he doesn't necessarily need the money, he'll be on decent money in Japan over the last few years, and would have been on decent money in Wales before that, so I think there are steps that he could have made, unfortunately now, it's all too little too late, this apology that came out in the press conference overnight, it felt half-assed, it felt just that they had to do it because he's been named as captain, it's not what I want to see represented in the national team, you know, my son has just turned one, I don't want him to have role models like that, I want him to be able to look up to lads in the international team and say, you know, they represent themselves and their families and their countries with a bit of dignity, and they're good role models on and off the pitch, and so altogether I just think it's a really shit time for the WRU, who are still fresh off the back of misogyny and sexism and racism allegations, you know, we've heard nothing from WRU board on this, Avi Tierney, absolutely nothing, Gatland has not covered himself in glory at any point during these whole allegations, he's always managed to be on the wrong side of comments in that regard, so yeah, I won't be watching Friday because quite frankly if I did I'd just end up cheering for the Reds, I'd just think it's easier to pretend the game isn't happening, and it's just like, I'm angry, but mostly, to use a parent phrase, I'm just disappointed that, you know, that Gatland, the WRU and the Hill himself haven't taken any steps really to address this and feel it's just something they can sweep under the rug with a cursory too little too late apology, so yeah, that's my toughens on it, I think it's fairly balanced, you know, I think people out there would go full pitchforks and call for him to never be selected again whether he apologises or not, I don't necessarily think that is the case, but the way that they've dealt with it is stinks essentially. Yeah, I think, just quickly because Colin's going to shoot, so I want him to have his say, but for me it's a case of, he's apologised to Gatland, not the person who it's at, that was the thing that says to me it's just a dressing up thing, and I'll get on to my big more conspiratorial thoughts in a second, but Colin, do you want to have your say before you have to shoot? I think I've been slightly surprised by the response from some people closer in and around the game, the Twitter response I expected, I expected people to be annoyed, you know, that was obviously the case and I can fully understand Dan's point of view, I've said responses ranging from, well other people have done worse and, you know, without getting too Gandhi-esque about it, you know, that doesn't make it right, but the other thing to point out, I think I've heard as well lines like, oh it wasn't him, it was his mates, well we need better mates, would be my immediate response to that. My general feeling about it is, it's one that should have been sorted three years ago, that the apology should have come three years ago, it should have been transparent, see I can understand to some extent from Corey Hill's perspective that perhaps he didn't think he needed to do a formal WRU apology in the sense of he was going off to Japan, maybe he didn't think he was ever going to play for Wales again, so he's got into that mindset, you know, at the time I know there was, per the BBC reports, there was no apology from him directly to the woman involved for her statement or her interview, I think that's something that is poor, that it should have been a direct apology, it should have been, you know, if you're going to make an egregious mistake like that, you should be apologising for it profusely and straight away and acting inappropriately, and yeah, I can't agree with the Gatling comment of a young man making mistakes, he's not a young man, he's 29, 28, 29, that's something that doesn't sit well with me, I don't know if I agree that it wasn't sincere, I've seen the video, it did look quite sincere in my opinion about apologising, but I think the reason it probably doesn't feel sincere is the timing of it, if you're being, you know, it's like being made First Minister or Prime Minister and apologising as you're being given the award, you know, it seems like you're trying to cover your back before moving on to bigger and better things, and that's probably why people are frustrated about it, and I can completely understand that, I think it's the timing of the apology is the thing that frustrates me the most, but yeah, if that had come before, I think I'd have thought let bygones be bygones and be okay with it, at the same time I do understand Dan's point, I don't think he should be captain, but I know a lot of people have voiced the opinion that of that group he's a leader, and is a good leader, and will help those in terms of on the pitch playing, and there aren't that many leadership options there, I suppose is what some other people have been saying, I'm trying to balance, I'm being a bit on the fence, but I do agree with a lot of Dan's points there, because I have been surprised by the Ian Rugby responses I've heard. I'd also add that the other thing Gatlin tries to say quite a bit, and he said it before the tour and this week, is that it was dealt with by Cardiff at the time, I vehemently disagree with that, and the club are aware of that as well, I think they handled it really poorly at the time, the simple fact of the matter is, it happened on I think a Sunday night, and he played the following Saturday, and they were aware of it before that, he didn't get punished by Cardiff, he didn't get punished by WIU, he was allowed to leave his contract early to run off to Japan, and hide, and that is what happened, so I don't think he's ever actually faced any consequences for it, is Gowen shooting? I don't think he's ever faced any consequences for it actually, and that is yet another little element that annoys me when it's brought up as well, that it was not dealt with by anyone at the time, and it's clearly not being dealt with now, and it links in, I wrote my piece on my blog, which I put out again this week, the WIU have got unfortunate form for this, because they keep picking Hannah Black in the women's team as well, who was convicted of domestic abuse a couple of years ago, she did receive proper criminal justice routes of community service, and paying fines to the victim, and appealed it, and still got upheld, so they've never addressed that, they just keep picking her and giving her central contracts, so it's on the people as individuals, but it's also majorly on the WIU as an organization, that if they want to show that they've turned a corner, then they actually have to produce some actions to follow up words, otherwise the words are very empty. Yeah, absolutely, um, my big conspiracy, now I'm going to get my big conspiracy, we, the only, the first thing that everyone's talking about with this, is the whole Corey Hill thing, which leaves very little time to talk about some of the more interesting points, like we've picked this, where this is supposedly a development team, and we've picked the second row, who are both in their 30s, and realistically, are they going to be the future, right, you've talked about the leadership with Hill, fine, we don't have an outlet seven in the back row, like I thought we'd just give both of them, I'm surprised, but I can see why they rest, rest on the bottom of the bench, but also it's like, what's the game plan, you know, what is this game plan going to be, is, you know, are we going to have the third game plan in three games, there's no continuity, um, it's like, basically everything's changed, Junzer, who's been playing very well in the second row, has been pushed out to the back row, it's, you know, I, you know, like, I think we can all agree, Gatlin is basically unshakable now, because the W, you can't afford to give him out of his contract, and he isn't going to quit, but why is there so little scrutiny around, like, say, the assistant coaches, for example, yes, our drive to Moore has been excellent, but our forwards consistently get bullied at break, then, our scrum is a proper lottery, and the left-next is somehow even more random chance, why is that not being, like, I can see, like, looking, you know, I actually looked into a little bit more about Alex King, Alex King is a specialist, sort of like set-piece coach, so his attack is never going to work if we can't get our set-piece sorted, which makes the question, why have we not got an, you know, a bit like Jockey did, so, you know, he's basically, he's managing his attack, this is how I will picture, I've got a specialist skills coach to improve the bits that need to be improved by players, so that it benefits, why have we not got something equivalent, you know, this is a national thing, in theory, but they spend all their money on it, because they have to make money, you know, defence, actually, I do think the Mike Foster defence has been pretty good, I think the issue has been more, we're changing personnel so often that there's no cohesion, and no-one knows where they are, and I think if you're not picking players used to doing certain roles, like, you know, Mason Grady's been used to that 12-shooter role, if that's not what he's been learning at club, you know, he's still, you know, he's basically had to get his head around defending on the wing, at both club and international level, then defending a 13-club international level, now he's having to do it at 12 as well, you know, come on, there's lads from Barry, like, as am I, I can only focus on about one thing at a time, and anyone, if there are any Open Arties listening who've seen me in pre-season training last night, I can run or I can pass the ball, I can't, I can't get in my head to pass the ball until I've had at least four weeks of pre-season, because my brain, it's just not in sync enough. So, yeah, yeah, it's just all these little things, and it's like, why, why that needs to be the forefront, I mean, but of course, because he's picked Corey Hill, that is the talking point, I mean, I know we're quite hypocritical on this podcast, because again, it's what we opened the discussion with. Yeah, I can see, I can see where people like it, it does, Gatland throughout his tenure, on both, both tenures, has often sought to deflect when criticism comes his way, and, and, you know, he is quite happy to take the praise in the good time of it's all him, like, bigging up these players, and then when it's not going well, it's never his fault. So, yeah, I can understand that, and to be honest, until you were speaking then, I haven't really looked at the full team, because I'd seen that Corey Hill was captain, and we could bother looking at the rest. But the continuity there, it's not impossible, looking at the starting 15. But what's our first autumn is Australia, again, isn't it our first autumn game, I think that I would say probably only two of the starting 15 start in the positions that they are currently are in in the game against the Reds in that first test. And that's probably when it and Dyer in the back three, because it's very likely. Yes, he'll switch wings probably when Adams is back. So, you know, Griffin might keep his position. But if some of the more experienced titles are available, they may well come in, I think Matthias and Lloyd are unlikely to be there barring injury crisis. Screeching Hill, again, unlikely barring injury crisis. Shuns are more likely to start in the second row than a blindside. Plumtree will be a seven. Yeah, there's no chance he's a seven. Mack probably doesn't start eight unless again, there's injuries there. Davis and Costolo could start but I probably if I had money to bet at the moment, I would put it on Thomas and Anscombe coming back in probably at nine and 10 if they start the season well at Gloucester. I don't see Tompkins at 13. There's a long term thing. Eddie James, well, he didn't get a sniffing eye of the test. So I don't particularly see him unless he has a worldly start of the season for the Scarletts. They're making it and well, Grace, yeah, he'll actually have to play some competitive club rugby union. So yeah, it's that is the major concern and Gatlin could keep doing that forever really and just constantly claim we're evolving forever and never really build towards anything and then in the end just say, well, you know, look at all these players I've developed, but they've never really gone anywhere. So, yeah, I don't know what he's up to. Maybe by this time next year, we'll have a clear, but do you think you look at the next 12 months and he's got three tough autumn tests, which could theoretically lose, taking the losing spell into the Six Nations, which if we're still on losing spell at the start of the Six Nations, another wooden spoon is not impossible. And then next summer, it's a Lions tour, which yes, we won't have many people on, I wouldn't have thought, but usually you do see a sort of switched up side that tours with Cymru during the Lions window. So it'd be more change again. I think it's Japan as well we're going to. Is it? So yeah, it's likely that he'll try and blood a few more people who've appeared over the next 12 months. And yeah, I don't know when we ever settle on a team or any sort of combinations, you know, particularly key areas, you know, back row changes. So often there's not, that centre partnership doesn't look happy. That can't be the long term option at centre. Like, you know, Carwyn was saying about Ben and Grady not playing in positions and Cardiff are definitely not playing Grady at 12 and it's highly unlikely he's played Ben at 10. So yeah, I don't, I don't know. If somebody has a crystal ball and can show what the next 12 months like, that would be great. But at this stage, I don't see how anyone can confidently say Gatlin knows what he's doing. And then yeah, it opens up more than enough evidence that he is just sort of covering his own ass constantly and trying to deflect away from what he's up to or lack of it. I don't want to dwell too long on this, but I just got a couple more points and I just want to go very Cardiff-focused now. Obviously, congratulations to all the Cardiff players and former Cardiff players and the likes of Christian, the former academy. It's just on a slightly more permanent note. So what do you think, what was up with Domachowski, do you reckon? Do you think it's just not been, it's been a fitness thing or do you think it's because Gatlin kind of knows what to get with, he's getting with Domachowski now and he wanted to see Kemsley-Mathias but then didn't play Kemsley-Mathias at all in the second half. And then after that, nice to see our two hookers, Evan and Ethan, getting start on their first and their debut, although it won't be a cap for Evan Daniel as this is an uncapped test match. Yeah, Domachowski was odd a little bit to me. My thought initially when the team's come out and particularly the second test and he wasn't involved, I just thought maybe Gatlin, like Mathias, is a bit more mobile than Dom are off the bench and that he was, he generally has picked your sort of more physical props to start and then you're more mobile guys off the bench and Dylan Lewis has made a bit of a living really of coming off the bench under Gatlin. But then to not bring Mathias on, did he bring him on at all in the second test? Oh, he went full 80, Thomas did he? Yeah, Gav Thomas went full 80 and Archie Griffin basically was almost six minutes. I don't, I don't get why, why you wouldn't bring Mathias on at all then. So yeah, I think Dom twice in the Six Nations as well. Yeah, Dom and Gav Thomas are quite, they've got similar traits I think. I think there's, there's little differences here. Thomas is a bit slimmer, a bit quicker, but just in terms of both solid scrimmages, not destructive, not bad either, they'll do your job. Both solid jackal threats, both got good hands and can shift the ball on. So I just thought maybe Mathias offered that point of difference, but yeah, when he didn't bring him on, I can't really explain that. I'd be interested to hear what Gatlin said, but then again, I probably wouldn't at the same time. But yeah, I'm glad you mentioned Evan Lloyd. I think obviously he's got work to do on his darts, but he's still not two years into his conversion to hooker yet, which is important to remember. I watched, I remember watching his first game of hooker for the Rags. I think it was Henley Hawks we played in a pre-season friendly from, I don't know what division they were in at the time, National 1, National 2, something around there. And I remember coming over to his family and saying, how was it? And he just, I think, I can't remember the exact words of it, but it was on the lines of, I fucked on the scrums or something like that. So he's come a long way since then, certainly. He underthrew quite a lot in both tests. He's particularly had a call into the front and there was a couple that they're just not hitting the top of the jumper's reach at all. They're sort of going face chest area. So he's got work to do in there, but the energy he brought off the bench in the second test in particular, he comes on, he chases down one kick, literally just pushes an Australian player out of the way, borderline penalty, even gets away with it and dives on a loose ball. And then there's a great try saver on the Australian left winger where he's in the line and he sees that he's got an overlap and just takes off for sort of 20, 25 metres, covers across and makes the tackle as well, where the winger's trying to step back inside, which a lot of outside backs would be done by a step back inside there when they're going full pelt towards the touchline. So, yeah, there's obviously a Derry Lake-esque comparison there as big physical back rowers. Yeah, they weren't quite, whilst they're big and physical, I don't think they've just got the sort of six foot four physical height presence to become out and out six slash eights. So they've switched up front rather than you get some back rowers who are seen as sort of too lightweight and get put into hooker, which doesn't always work. Whereas, yeah, these guys were certainly heavy enough, but just didn't quite have the sort of athletic frame to go with it. So somebody asked me, I said to like, you know, what's his sort of next few years looks like? And if he gets his throwing right, which is hard to say whether he will or won't be down to sort of his ability to learn and the coaching that he gets. But if he does get that right, his ceiling is massive elsewhere around the pitch. So, yeah, I think he, despite the line-up not going well, he comes back with credit from Australia. And then Evan Daniel, lots of really good raw skills. He's absolutely rapid for a hooker. He would be one of the quickest players on the pitch probably on Friday morning. He's got a solid line-up, been in the hooker a bit long ago. He's not as probably as strong scrummaging wise as Lloyd or Lake with their size, but yeah, he'll give you plenty around the field. It's almost like a kind of like a 12 almost the way that he runs and the speed that he goes with. So, yeah, pleased for him to get an opportunity to show what he can do. And Cardiff's hooking stocks are looking really good next season. Sheriff, I think he'll rotate a bit more with Belcher started a lot of games this year, but I think I've played a lot on the Knicks as well. Yeah, I think we'll see him drop to the bench a couple of times more next season, which isn't a bad thing. We've got a bit more experience now there. So if you have, you know, an Ed Byrne or Josh McAnally start and then to bring on Liam Belcher and his leadership in the last 20, 30 minutes and his pace and, you know, his ability in the wider channels later in the game is certainly not a bad thing as well as his line that throw in. So, yeah, good, good choices for Sheriff, good headaches to have. But he's shown that he uses his players quite wisely in that regard as well. Yeah, absolutely. And I think we're all quite looking forward to it. As for upcoming pods, I think we're still trying to get some more guests in for you before we get to preseason when we'll sort of probably preview the we might preview the preseason games. I don't know if we're going to do some reviews. Also, coming up towards the start of start of the new season, we're going to have Lynn back on the pod from the president of Chiefs Interest, along with David Allen, the supporters, representatives of the board. We're going to do a sort of Q&A just so we'll put out some feeders of questions there, just more about supporters and what we as fans want to see a cap for the next few years. You know, things like facilities, what they're looking at, trying to sort of maintain that as Richard was talking about the other week, that sort of process of keeping the renovations taken over until we can look into the big, the big refurb. Unless you've got anything else to say, Dan? No, all good for me, Tam. In that case, then, thank you all very much for listening. Thank you to Kerwin. Sorry, I had to pop off some work stuff earlier. And thank you, Dan, for joining me. Everyone have a good weekend. Thank you for listening to the Cardiff Central podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Please subscribe, rate and review wherever you listen to us as it really helps spread the word. You can find us on all usual social media channels or email us on welshregionalrugbypod at gmail.com. And remember, whatever the question is, rugby is always the answer.