STE-009

The conversation involves using a tablet to collect community stories for a project with $5,000 funding. Economic well-being and volunteer labor are key topics. The speaker is part of the Business and Tourism Association, involved in the Wilderness Collective, and values the workspace provided by the Collective for her business, offering separation between work and home life. The workspace has improved mindset, health, and relationship aspects. The focus is on maintaining work productivity and concentration in the workspace. recording that's really the important thing. Yes, I will be using that. It's got two different, like, multi-direction. So, you just let it, just roll through. So, it's digitally collecting that on a tablet? On a tablet, that's right. Interesting. So, can I try that too? Okay. Okay. So, thank you. The point of this, as you, I think you probably know, we have a little bit of funding, $5,000, to do a project here. And what we have chosen to do is community stories. Yes. So, a few people are in. Ten, but it doesn't have to be very many. So, I've got probably, I'll have them in, about four people from other community organizations. Yes. And then, opposite is New Orleans. Okay. It's, some of it is going to be built, I think folks are interested. Some of it is going to be from our story. Okay. But, because then we've done a lot of research. So, feel free to put in, you know, anything about any of the research that you have found through the development. Okay. I'll send a little bit of collected. Yes. And one of the, could you, could you get a couple of images of that? Yes. Okay. Good. It's really, we're interested in economic well-being, particularly because, you know, you can tell some of the outcomes, like the cost of having to volunteer labor for everything in the community, and that cycle of grant funding, and to get, you know, aren't a big expense. So, yeah, we're, but people's stories aren't, I mean, I'm doing, you know, a lot of people, well, I haven't done a lot of people, but they're okay with the situation it is, but what are then the, you know, what are the consequences of having to struggle for funding and not being able to have people, and that kind of thing. And through that, as an organization, and not necessarily the economic well-being of the community. It's whatever you, as my conversation partner, wish to include. Right. When you're a part of the Business and Tourism Association. Yes. That counts. Yes. Because you will have data and interests that are different from somebody that's just at the Arts Council, or Medicine, who's doing, I don't know. The Health Challenge. The Health Challenge, yes. So it's the whole of you, because presumably you're not, you know, shutting yourself off completely from one compartment to another. Okay. Yes. Okay. He is broad. He is broad. And I'm going to, you know, I've just completed a uni course in Artificial Intelligence. Oh, wow. And I'm using this as a way of learning about how to appropriately and respectfully and honestly deal with data. Yes. So that's my process, will be using the recorded data to draw the messages individually and collectively. Okay. The story won't have names or anything like that in it, but it will have a number of people that we spoke with. Okay. It's just so, that's it. Right. So, yes, I'm keen to, I mean, we've really kind of had a conversation where it's kind of depending on what makes you tick and what are the things, maybe, first of all, is what are the things you're involved in in this community? Okay. Well, I'm involved in not as many things as I have been in the past, but more so I think it's the Wilderness Collective, when we're talking about volunteer participation, usually participation, it's the Wilderness Collective and the Business and Tourism Association. Right. Really are the main things. I'm a member of NADRA, I'm a member of the Arts Council, but the participation in NADRA is almost non-existent. I turn up to certain events, usually with my working in that time, and then the Melting of Hearts is more really participating in their, like, artists that they have, rather than being an artist. Being a member, a support member of the organization. Yes. And then, other than that, it's fairly limited. Yes. Okay. And you are one of the founders of the Wilderness Collective? I am one of the founders of the Wilderness Collective, and I participate in four things. Right. So what drew you to, what were the key things that got you involved in the creation of the Wilderness Collective? Okay. So then, basically, the reason that I joined, I was one of the last people to join, at about the same time as you, but the true reason was that I was running a business with my husband. We had had co-work spaces and worked in a co-work environment. When we lived in King Lake, we used to travel to Melbourne and take up co-work spaces there. So it appealed to me that there was a co-work space element of the Wilderness Collective, and I wanted to be a tenant. And the Wilderness Collective needed five founders to found the organization, and I agreed to participate in that because I really wanted the benefit of the work space for my business. Right. So I also believed in other things that were going on, but I felt that there was a duty there. If you want something and you want to build it, then you can build it. Then you can build it. Exactly. So that's one of the main reasons for putting your time and effort into something. Yeah, yeah. It can be a valuable resource for the community. Yeah, absolutely, and helpful to my business. To your business as well. That's right. So I put the time and the money. Got it. Yeah. That's what I'm putting into the Wilderness Collective. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that was, you know, and I guess that's... Yeah, that's the foundation of my work. But I liked the people that were around the table. I liked that it was all women. I thought that was fantastic, and I think that we had a really good collective passion and a lot of different skills and energies to bring to it. But it was also, you know, there was a camaraderie aspect to that too. Mm, yeah. I also experienced that. Okay. Totally. And having, for me, just to, yeah, it was having someone to have heart with. Yeah. We were different and we were so similar in the passion that we had for the community. Yeah. And wanting it to survive and thrive, I guess, was really the, you know, mine was not so much the economic part of it but the social connection and continuity. Successfully. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you have a small business here. Have you found it that you are able to continue your business through the co-working space and have the resources that you need to, well, that's the economic part of it. It's a growing concern, isn't it? Yeah. To be able to maintain from across the state to here. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I think one of the things that we were concerned about moving so far away in proximity from any big city was whether or not we would be able to find clients and meet new people and prospective clients. Yeah. And when we moved here, COVID hit at the same time as our move here, which meant that people had a natural affinity for coming online. Mm-hmm. So that was good. Good timing. In that respect, it was good timing. And then everything went on to Zoom and learning and education went on to Zoom as well. So lots of people were participating in webinars and I was fortunate not to run those webinars and meet hundreds of organisations and bring on clients in that way. And I think what the Wilderness Collective provided for our business, so we were doing that at home, and I think what the Wilderness Collective provided for our business, which I share with my husband, was one, a degree of separation from my home to my business. Sure. And a degree of separation from my husband and my husband to my work partner. Yes. And so that has been really valuable for us because I get to leave every day and go to work and then come home and they're very segmented about the way that we do things. Right. I can rely on the internet at the Wilderness Collective which is great and I run a lot of meetings using the high speed internet here. And that wasn't necessarily the case at my house, especially when the Wilderness Collective first started before broadband really set in. Really. Yeah, we had no ADN at that point. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And then we've got the Zoom pod which is great, providing independent, you know, away from the rest of the workspace to focus in on whatever I'm meeting with, with partial sound blocking. Mm-hmm. So there's a level, I guess, of professionalism working from a workspace provide that I had at home but was more lonely. So you feel like you're kind of coming to work with a group of people who are all working. Mm-hmm. And I think that that has a good, like a good book set outline as well. Yeah, yeah. To know that we have an office space and now it's in the main street. So economically, I think, yeah, I think, look, our business is nearly 10 years old. So I'm not sure if I could say that economically it has improved by being at the Wilderness Collective but it certainly improved the mindset. The health and well-being aspects are... Yeah, I would say that that's vastly improved and I think it's only good for the relationship just because we are married and running a business and that's complicated. It's complicated. I think the generation is very good. Yeah, and I suspect it's being discussible that there is a separation between, as much as you can, between the business and the partner. Yeah, well, we do that. I think that we do that really well now that there is a work space because one, there's no distraction to the things that I need to do at home. My kid has been distracted by me because I was, you know, sick. I suppose companionship, you know, work companionship through him and his method of working is very much on his own. He likes the space and the concentration. Yeah, so I think that they are sort of both and that it's the way we've worked out. Yeah. Specifically about working in the work space, do you find that you have sufficient ability to concentrate without the zoom fight all the time when you're at your work space and you're given the opportunity to concentrate? Yeah, absolutely. I think that, I mean, I had been in a co-work space before so I'm educated in the way that co-work spaces work. They're not libraries. Yeah. You can't expect to come into a co-work space and expect it to be completely silent although I never had that expectation. So sometimes it can get, you know, a little bit loud. Chaotic. And I think that that just has to be accepted as a part of a work space. It can't be like that all the time. But I appreciate that it needs to be like that sometimes. The balance is not out of line for what you need to be able to concentrate. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. Well, I think it's also about having, you know, noise-cancelling headphones so there's a lot of concentration and if you're the kind of person that is distracted all the time, maybe it's not for you. Yeah. So that's the balance of co-working, I guess. What about the door open, door locked sort of thing? There's an aspect of us being open to the community but on the other hand, there's a co-working space. Yeah. So where are you in that conversation? It's kind of an ambiguous one, isn't it, really? Yeah, well, for me, I would expect to, again, I'll just go back to the co-working spaces I've been involved in before. Yeah. And that means there is a separation from the public and anyone visiting and the people that are trying to do their work. Yeah. So if you were attending, there are much bigger work spaces, but if you were attending a work space with somebody from the work space administration that is sitting there to please those people and we would literally look behind the wall or across the door where it's a physical separation. Yeah. Here, it's far more difficult and it means that if a Wilderness Collective staff member isn't here and that door was open, then they come to me. And I might be a volunteer for the Wilderness Collective but I'm not a volunteer administrator for the Wilderness Collective and I don't have time for that. So that is an issue that I think is better met now with the fact that we have the automatic door. Yeah. But, yes, there's data in that where if your concentration is broken, it can take something like 28 minutes to get it back. I can understand. And so I'm okay with noise around me because it's my job to focus away from the noise, but what I can't... My concentration is broken when someone's come in and they're looking at me because I'm sitting there and they don't know who I am or that I'm a senator or a Wilderness Collective servant. I'm just a natural next person to go to or I was always the person to go to when the door was open and, you know, often being requested to do things. I'm constantly moving my focus. Yes, absolutely. And that is really hard to get back again. Yeah. Refilling the status box, I think, with whether we're outward... What is our outward-facing presence if there's going to be one and how we do that and whether there are specific hours to do it or whatever. But, yes, losing your concentration and getting the community to understand that it's a working space and if they have something, then there is a set time that you can come and have X and Y done. Yeah, absolutely. But that's something we had to learn our way into, really, wasn't it? Yeah. Definitely. We wanted people to be aware of what was going on here. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's good... what we need to do. I think it's good for the community building aspects of what we're doing. But, yes, over time, we're going to have to figure out a way to make that, A, economically viable and, B, mutually beneficial. So, if we're participating, it's not just about what an organisation can do for the community. It's also about how the community and the mental illness collective work together for the community and have a shared goal or a shared understanding of what it is we're trying to do. We haven't really articulated the ask, have we? I think this is evolving because we're a start-up and because we've been so strongly supported by the community. But that doesn't mean that there's a free pass for every single person to come in. And some people are very loud and they're very... and they're really... and that's beautiful to hear. There's a sense of ownership and they want to come in and say g'day and have a coffee and do whatever without having the realisation that it's actually everybody trying to do work. And that includes people at the moment who are working who are kind of, you know, everybody at the moment has a goal of trying to make youth business a business. So, for the ongoing benefit it needs to come so that we can have an executive officer in the role. So, it's really interesting trying to to manage that, like you said. Yeah, and we... I'm a member of... we're both members of the board and I think that's something we need... or we do consider every meeting really and through the time it's... it's not an easy one to answer all of a sudden. I guess we've been around for about three, three and a half years now. And we're still at the learning stage, as you say. We're a start-up, still. And I think our ongoing... we will be... we will find ongoing viability. But, that's a real challenge. That's the primary challenge, I think, right now. We've got this space. We've got some tenants. You know, financial viability is... it's a challenge. Yeah, yeah. That's where the remoteness comes in, I think. A whole raft of... kind of... I don't know what the word is, but... they're very complex and complicated. Have you got any thoughts about... yeah, where... what avenues are available for community organizations or the Women's Collective? You have a couple of hats on. So, around business and tourism. I guess one of the things that we talk about at the Women's Collective is having a life fully lived... enabling a life fully lived in Malakuta. And that means having an economy that's not just holiday time. So, that's one of the consequences in my mind, is how are we going and what are we doing to kind of transition some of... well, not transition... create more enabling economy through the years. Yeah. How important do you think that is? And any thoughts that you have about... not specifics, but just... I mean, what's your thinking around there? Yeah. Well, I mean, there's a few things. One is, we are not just a tourist economy in Malakuta. Yes, there's an influx of tourism. But from... and I don't have any records out. I wish I could have some. So, I wouldn't look at it today. But when you look at the economic trend in terms of people spending... so, people spending... it's all metadata. Right. The people spending in this town who are from this town. So, the credit card is linked to a postcode and that's the data that we get. So, then they talk about how much is spent in town. And there is an economy in that for us. Yeah. And it's sizable. So, just what is considerably a small amount of people that live here we do spend in our community. So, I think that's one thing. We spend in our community all the time. Yeah. And then we get an influx of spending through, you know, basically six months of the year. A very concentrated amount. Six weeks of the year coming into kind of December and January period. Then the six-week period is there. And then there's a six-month period kind of shouldering that piece of it. Yeah. Where you can see the spending increases from visitors. And then you can also see when we're going south. So, when our community goes out to spend in other communities. Right. So, I think that that data supports that we have an economy that's outside of tourism. The question is, I suppose, is it diverse enough? And what are we doing to really support people's opportunities to earn an income in this town? So, what are the career opportunities? What are the business opportunities? What are the pathways to employment that exist in this community? And I guess that's what we're asking a lot of opportunity. More so than just saying, let's create an economy outside of tourism. Because there is one many communities. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So, then it's more about... It's only expanding it sufficiently so that we can find some of the triggers that are more specific than let's create something new. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And then I think that the woman's point is on the money. About the money. About supporting enterprise and more micro-business development for people that live here. Because one, it's not... It's hard to say to someone who's building business and some of these women have made hundreds of thousands of dollars here when at a family level you might not need to make that much money. But you might need to contribute a little bit more and then you might need opportunities available in what you see in typical employment here. So, which is, and this is an issue, of course, is that people have unreliable employment and they have casual employment and everyone goes while the going is good to get, you know, five casual jobs during the summer peak because that's when the tourism's here and that's when some of the bigger businesses like the Golden Tile or the pub or the people that serve the tourists have job opportunities. So I think it's... That leads me to think that the riches are there and then they're not. And I wonder if there is sufficient skill in the people that are getting the riches during five jobs in the summertime to plan for the rest of the year. Yeah, yeah. I think we... This is me in the conversation. We have some opportunities for upskilling not just for entrepreneurial work but for people to be financially more stable when they're high and nothing. Yeah, yeah. Because I think a lot of money gets spent by some of the people during the summer period as they're making it. I have two thoughts that I... I guess this is a good time to put them into the mix really. We have two businesses in town that are for sales that are really quite important to our community. That means the mechanic and... The mechanics. And the... The teachers. Yes. And I see opportunities for us as well as the collective even to encourage and support in a particular way not an entrepreneurial new business but the sustaining of those two businesses. What can we do to support and encourage and train? Do we go to Tate and get a skills scholarship for someone to train as a butcher? Which can all be done locally. They don't need to go away. Yeah. So that's benefiting, even if we put in money for it, it's benefiting the whole of the community to have that so that people can buy vocals. Yeah, absolutely. And I guess that there's... Well, there's a few things there. One is pathways to employment and the other is pathways to business. Yeah. Not necessarily those two would meet but perhaps they're all a deliberate collective in this and the BPA talks a lot about this in terms of the promotion of what businesses are available to people who already have the skill set. Becoming a butcher is a skill set and running a business is another skill set. Yeah, absolutely. And having the finance to invest in that business is another requirement on top of that. So you can have all of the... You can have the people that are skilled to run the business but it doesn't necessarily mean... Oh, sorry. You have the people that are skilled to work in the business. That doesn't mean that you have the people that are going to own the business and that business ownership isn't always about the person who owns it, runs it and works in it. It can be... There's a lot of pros and cons to that. Yeah. I didn't know it was mentioned. Yeah, but I think anywhere. I think so. And I think if you walk along... I mean, certainly for me every time in Melbourne or parts of where I used to grow up, there's lots of businesses. And I know there's so many businesses there and there's so many populations to feed those businesses but there's constantly businesses closing down. There's an evolution of business. And I think that it is important to note that 90% of businesses are gone by the 10-year mark or it's 90% of the 5-year mark and then it's more by the 10-year mark. So, case in point. There we are. Right now. It did not look like this three years ago. No, that's right. What's it been? I mean, they're so completely diverse. Ice house and hairdressers. Yeah. And an everything shop. Yeah. Related to that too, you might want to say. Does it? Yeah, I think that we took it to that side of where we're working now. Right, so that's four. Yeah. And then there's before we got here. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so there is that kind of reuse of space. Yeah. And so I think if you look, and when it comes to the butcher as an example, it is obviously a fantastic business for our community but you do see in the wider community of Melbourne a lot of butchers closed down a long time ago and didn't reopen because the supermarkets took the job off. Right. And I'm not saying that that should happen here or not. But it's also being able to accept that that evolution exists and then the question is what is our role within that? And it doesn't mean you just lie down and let things happen but I think to a point you can encourage employment and skill building and on another side we can encourage, we can promote that a business is available. But that is ultimately the job of the business owner. The business owner, yeah. To sell their business and start to do it in a way and then it's what is the job of the rural perspective or what is the job of the VTA or council when these things occur? Yeah. And then you've got great, and then you look at social enterprise and community services and you've got a lot of incredibly critical services like a post office or a pub. Or a grocery station. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And then the community might all put in money and share more with them. So we've got those social enterprise opportunities I suppose that are available and community ownership of vital business services. And, you know, your point to the McCain, like we, the Women's Project put on a business program with Australian business volunteers and we met a mobile mechanic there who was starting up his business. I think he came from Can River. And so it's not someone that has, he's a young person, he's a mechanic, doesn't have the money to invest in the overhead of the building but has the enthusiasm and the tools required to do a mobile mechanic service. Yeah. So it's new forms of doing business as well. Yeah. Small business within, yeah. It's recreating what a business is potentially or some businesses are in a community like ours. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that is the role or a role if we've been chosen. Yeah. I think that the Women's Project campaign is really about informing or educating people about those opportunities or with those people trying to facilitate pathways into our community to run their new businesses or to, you know, if there was a pathway for that person or we found someone who liked the building, great. I don't know if that is our role. I don't know that the Women's Project's job is to place people like that. I think our job might be to encourage the connection. Oh, so you don't have to go through it. Well, you have to go through it but I don't even know if it's that. Yeah. I'm not sure. And I guess when we're talking about our own economic viability, we can get lost in doing all this amazing stuff for Mallacoota which is ultimately what he is, for Mallacoota and we do want to live so we could do a million different things but we could also be at risk of closing our doors because we focused on things that actually couldn't bring us revenue. Mm-hmm. I'm not saying we can't do both. No, I didn't mean it like that. Yeah. Our risk is getting too caught up. And we do have a risk, don't we? Yeah. I mean, where are you right now in thinking about the challenges, the primary challenges that we've got in thriving over the next 10 years? Making it competitive beyond. Yeah. Well, yes. Sorry, was there more to the question? No, no. Yes. I think that as a business person who works in a small business, I think thinking out too far can also be a trap but I think it's really more about what are we going to do this year and not just keep doors open for next year. Right. While keeping a little vision in there that yes, we would like to be over here in 10 years' time doing these amazing things and next year is the one that we're going to be living. Yeah. That's right. And if we don't yet have the money in the bank to keep the doors open for the next year, then to me, of course, the goal is how do we fill the bank account so that maybe we've got a year if we have a year. Then in that year, can we get the next year? And if we do that by six months, can we get the next year by another two years? Right. And then you might be looking at a surplus event in another 10 years' time. So I guess it's high-technical 10 years for me. I think for the world we've collected, and this is my own business. I'm not looking at the next 10 years. Not really. That's kind of shut down. Power it off. Power it off. Yeah. You need to stop. Oh. No, it's done. It's done. Can we stop for just a second? Yeah. OK. Will the camera work for me? Is it on? I think it's on. Yeah, I hear it's been on the whole time. Yeah. I'm OK with not being on the camera. Yeah, me neither. How do you hold this? Hold it? Yeah, I don't know how to do it. It looks like it is, but I think perhaps it's not. Maybe you just... It says... I don't know how to do this. OK. Is it still on? No. No. Yeah. The lights turned off now? Yeah. Oh, phew. Yeah. Thank you. Hopefully there'll be a looper. OK. Yeah, so this project was around... The Newfoundland Foundation wanted to solicit five communities from across the country to be involved in this. Yeah. It wasn't necessarily a storytelling project, but it was giving us some funds to do something that was meaningful for us, and we chose to do this storytelling project. Yeah. I guess I wonder if there are any... Broadly, any other things that you would like to share. We don't have to go any further if there aren't. I guess we've really been talking... The last conversation bit was around our own economic well-being. Yeah. What you're saying to me is, as business, our own economic well-being is primary to the economic well-being of the whole of the community, because anything we do here impacts the whole of the community inevitably. Absolutely. Couldn't have said it better myself. Yeah. The other conversations I've had so far are... The people are quite comfortable, maybe not in the exact right word, but with the way that things are here in town right now. Exactly. Yeah. There are things that need to be done, and the challenges that we're having in life is a million dollars for a well-being center, and making that transition to being a real thing. Yeah. Not just some... A huge number. Yeah. Any final thoughts around... If we were to say, what should we be doing? I mean, I don't think should's at any time, but what would be the things that you're... You're bringing all of who you are to this. Yeah. Any thoughts around that? I mean, I don't think should's at any time. 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So I think, yeah, the painful, I think, is about the same as us. And so we are, yeah, we've got the wherewithal to have a beautiful future of trained people that are reasonable and able to do all of those things that these people that want to stay here until they're 100 can do. So hearing and seeing around the place didn't mean directly involved in any of it. But the entrepreneurship, the potential that we have to support those people that have the skills but not the business acumen. I think that's 15 years. I was part of the BTA or math data. Yes. And the lack of business skills was huge. And probably still is. The cooks, every level, from interpersonal skills to financial skills to whatever. There might be a good electrician, but nothing beyond that. I think there is a problem with that. I don't know if people like yourself and the BTA, but I think there's a lot that we could do with the buildings collective as well to allow the social, not the social, but the entrepreneurial development. Yeah, definitely. There's a lot to support. There's a lot of need, I would say, to support existing businesses as well as new businesses coming in with a multitude of different skills. Whether they want this or not is another question. Well, I put my first teeth to the school principal about 12 years ago. The guy who was paying went to advanced teeth and then looked at all of their courses and pulled out the ones that would be appropriate. We could run here. I'm not so successful with that, but it's possible. Yeah, absolutely. They told us it's a lot more possible than it was that 12 years ago. Absolutely, yeah. And the advancement of technology. They think also their businesses, just thinking about that and creating an entrepreneurial community, which is part of what we set out to do three and a half years ago, there really is... It would be interesting to see what's happening because of the social enterprise in schools program. It's a fairly small part of what's going on, but it is planting a seed within young people and potentially that's something that we see growing through small or big community enterprises in the future. But I think another... So I think, I guess, in what isn't working that well and my observation is, I just took some notes on this, but is that many mainstream, main street businesses, the ones that you asked, that have actual bricks and mortar, many of them have an anti-competition mindset instead of a community mindset. Right. And I think that that mindset is kind of actively hindering growth of our economy. So there was a concern by multiple businesses when the Women's Collective came into being that if we provided a place for people to rent that the businesses might be the same type of businesses as other businesses in the street and therefore taking something from them instead of thinking that how great it would be if we had more businesses here to serve all the people that live here and people would have choice if they're a tourist or instead of maybe eating out once or visiting a shop once, they might go to multiple shops and spend more money in town. So every dollar that circulates through the town is a dollar coming back into the town. So I think there's an opportunity there as well for the Collective to educate and I think what the Women's Collective does really well is provide a sense of community for the people that work within the Women's Collective and I think we've tried to also show these other businesses who have these concerns that by us being here means that we also spend money into those businesses and that we employ people here who are spending money into all of the businesses in town. So there's a fluidity in something great that happens with the economy when more businesses are in it and I think a part of what we're doing is I suppose needing to educate people on the benefits of community over competition. It's having a future which is not a repeat of the past. So we're actually talking about a more collaborative competitive environment. Yes, well I think that it's not a pie. You can have 20 pies, you can have an endless amount of pies and there's so many people to come in and sell your clients to. I'm using a terrible analogy. There's really competition is a negative thing. Me having something purchased in my business doesn't mean that they're not as close to me as something purchased in yours. Absolutely and if everybody's doing really well in their businesses and they're making a positive contribution within their business to the people that they serve, no one has anything to worry about. Everything should be seen as a part of us building a community, not a part of us building competition against each other. Absolutely. So I think it's really, and there's something in that for the woman that's selected to be an exemplar of community over competition. Yes. Which I think when we're doing our remote micro enterprise Australia kind of training that we're doing with people and the pilot project that we've staged, that's an ethos that we can build into that so that people see the benefit and the worthiness of another person and their right to build a business. Yes. That's a really important, valuable, you don't have to be the same business but you can be mutually beneficial. Absolutely. You can also have this place thrive. Yes. Understanding that there are layers and layers and layers there, aren't there? Yes, absolutely. There's so many that are intact. But I think that in Mallacoota we have a community that does have a shared goal. I think for most of the part people here want to see people in Mallacoota and Mallacoota as a community as well. Yes. The way that we get there might be a little bit different in our ideas but I think that we do have a really great community of capable people who are activators, who have good ideas, and I think that the Women's Collective can be a support to a lot of that. Community... Stop. Stop. Community and social capital building. Yes. Yes. Social capital. I like it. That's good. Okay. Any final thoughts? Anything else on your viewpoint? Not much. I know there's a few notes here. None of them make a lot of sense. I did hear that the Women's Collective has a great presence in our industry for businesses to start or grow because we are renting out spaces. We don't have... You mentioned that there are two businesses to fail. Most other communities have actually a lot more than that. So it's a bit more real estate. So I think that that's a great opportunity. But yeah, I'm not sure that it's spoken much about the economic wellbeing of the Women's Collective. It's sufficient. Yeah. Okay. I think that in conversation, it doesn't come up as being beneath... Yeah. It's not the main game, though it is. On the ground, we need to be economically viable. Yes. But there's so many other aspects, avenues, that we're attempting to work along to make that happen. Yeah. But it's not... I guess it's not worrying us to the extent that we can't do anything else. Yeah, I mean, that's true. We need both attention to that, but also to what we can do and are doing to be viable in the moment as well as in the next year, not necessarily the 10 years, as you were saying. Yeah. Well, I mean, there's also... I suppose I haven't talked anything about this, but to some degree, I think, with a community not-for-profit organisation, with the goals that we have in building entrepreneurship and having this focus, is there has to be, at least at the beginning, to have a reliance on funding from philanthropists and grant providers to give us the chance to actually do this work that simply isn't done by anyone else, through government organisations. Yeah. You know, there's absolutely a role of government in some respects to encourage business. You know, it's a huge part of our economy in Australia, but when you come back into a remote area where there's 1,000 people living, no-one's knocking down our door to give us the kind of support that we need, and we need the support in person. Everybody does. We're a long way from anywhere, which is both a good thing and a bad thing. Yeah. I guess that's... Yeah, it's time to ask that question specifically. You know, right now, we are pretty beholden to philanthropists and grants. We are. Okay. What would you really rather see? You know, what alternative? Would you like longer-term online funding from philanthropy, or any thoughts on how we get from here to there? Well... And what you desire. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that having recurrent funding to... Let's say that remote microenterprises Australia is going really well, where we're not just doing the work that we're doing in our community for our community, we're doing it for the benefit of other communities that are also remote, that are also rural, and sharing that knowledge. I think that there needs to be some level of recurrent funding for a program like that whilst you get up on your feet, and then we need to establish if there is a monetization of that. Can people afford... I'm throwing that to you here... $100 a month or $50 a month to be a part of that as a business-to-consumer model? Mm-hmm. Or do we have a model where we can sell this program year-on-year to lots of different people? They're all parts of the question for once you've got the model right. But in getting the model right, it's really helpful to have someone supporting us whilst that happens. Yeah. And it's not a three-month or six-month sort of thing. No, this is a five- or six-year thing. And whilst we're doing that, we're also having our own potential micro-enterprises that we have that are missing money. And, yes, we do have the ability to get some of our funding through rent, but we know that even if we're out of capacity and have our director clubs out the back, it's barely enough to pay an executive officer for less time than what they're employed for now. So what we know is there needs to be something else. I believe that philanthropy is a good answer to that. But we need to then, if we get something like a four years or a five years or a six years, then we need to have targets for building our own income over that six years because that becomes a gift. And then we need to use that time really wisely. Absolutely. So that we could be in a position to stand in our own right. But I think it's a really hard... I've never seen it work. I've actually been involved in not-for-profit organisations and the question of sustainability since 2005. That's nearly 20 years, and I've never seen an organisation do it in three years. I've barely seen it happen in five. By the time you get to 10, you start seeing the same kinds of numbers that business start seeing when you're asking organisations to run off their own steam. One of the histories that I have starting in 2003, but 2006 we started a private university. And it ran for 10 years, but it wasn't of our own doing that it came unstuck. It was the system itself pushing back against the success of an unusual model. They just couldn't. They, in fact, worked to undermine the model so that it became impossible for us to continue within a fully functioning, no debt system. So the system can work against entrepreneurial activity in the education space. I don't know. How likely is that, do you think, with your knowledge about the whole of philanthropy and broader grant-funding organisations, that our own success may become problematic to the outside world? Will we have had enough? Yeah, I guess I'll leave that in the question. Yeah. Well, I guess the truth is I have no idea what the answer to that is. It's something I think about a lot, not just for the women's question, but there seems to be an idea in community organisations that we should somehow be protected from the things that happen to businesses where we're all just businesses running in a society. So, I mean, I'm talking about ones that aren't just volunteer-based, really, because that's not a business model so much. Perhaps it is. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way. But I'm excluding that for the moment. I'm looking at where people's time is paid and where we have, when we're looking at a profit and loss statement, we've had a measure, not the only, but a measure of success as an organisation and the chance to continue building it. But I think that we're looking at, it's just a question that I have, is why do we look at it in society so differently? At least it wouldn't be the same kind of market. It should be okay for a not-for-profit organisation to run its course or to do really well or to sit and glide doing the things that it does forever. Best forever is, from what I understand in the business world, that's about 1% to 2% of businesses, and forever doesn't really need to be a business model. So, surely we can talk about what's going to happen in the next two, three, five years, maybe. And then if you happen to be really sensible with any surplus that you have and you put it into things like buildings, maybe you buy more buildings and maybe you start running different types of enterprises within your organisation, from what I understand. Yeah, I guess my answer is I don't have an answer to are we going to be focused on all that we need? The element that intrigues me is that what you're saying is that a lot of the data suggests that businesses do change and don't necessarily exist in the same form for all that long. No, that's right. They're value-wrecked. And I wouldn't rank them as value-wrecked because they're a bit of stop-shop features to introduce, but there are lots of reasons why they'd be boosted, not just financial value, but I think it's a huge contributor to moving our business. But I've looked for the data because I'm interested in a four-community organisation. And we have some data now from ACNC, but there are 60,000 registered charities on ACNC and there are something like 600,000 not-for-profit organisations, groups, volunteer organisations in Australia. Only 60,000 of them are on ACNC and one might suggest that those ones are doing better than the other 600,000. So where's our data on incorporated associations so that we have measures, so that we knew that if we got to five or ten you'd put them in really well? Yeah. And what is the expected failure rate and what are the triggers that make it? Well, it may have been done, but I don't believe it. That's very interesting. Yeah. There's lots to think about. Yeah, yeah. But I think it's important for us as a woman of 12 years to understand that it may not be here forever, but also if we did want to be here for the next three years or five years, one, an acceptance that we may need for non-profit funding, then that's okay. It doesn't have a lot of community organisations that we really want. And two, I think we've got some really fantastic momentum built in terms of the fact that we have an asset and if we can do more asset building, which is a bit like an individual's wealth or a business's wealth. If you can accumulate kind of assets and you can have different enterprises that are all contributing to income and revenue overall, then that could be a way forward for us. So we've made a good start in three and a half years in my mind, for sure. We have a lot of good wills. And yeah, I think then all the other things are just questions. But that is what happens next. Yeah. And there will be forever that question, what happens next. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that's okay to have that question and forever being there. Yeah. But I think it's a little bit like running my business with my husband now. And so we say to each other, we're ready to stop selling our time for money. So we're looking at our enterprise ideas. Yeah. Things that we can build. I would never call it passive. I don't believe that there is a passive business. There are ones that are less passive and have different models, but they're not physically sit back, get the beach chair out, and watch the sunset every day. And there are different ways. Like you could be sitting in the hardware store doing a really good job. Yeah. Absolutely. That's selling your time. Yeah, it is. It is. Absolutely. And I think that for the Wilderness Collective answering what does the ideal day look like for our staff? What does the ideal day look like for our board? You know, you get that to the micro level to then understand how we set that and say, well, this is what we would like the Wilderness Collective to do. This is the revenue we would like to raise. This is what we would like to pay our people. This is what the contribution is to the community. You're turning our away time. There it is. It's a bit. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that's a part of, you know, it really is understanding, you know, I don't think we want somebody, or I don't want to have somebody that we're employing that's run off their feet, that is constantly fighting for every dollar. Yeah, absolutely. That's a ridiculous responsibility for 7% of them on going. Yeah, on one person. They can't keep going that big, can they? No. So I think within that there are, you know, they've got their lifestyle pictures for an organization, and they're just as important as individualizing themselves about the kind of life they want to have. Yeah. Yeah, you can't do it. You can do it intensely for a certain amount of time, and then you just can't do it anymore. Well, that's right. So we can't pass the baton and say, okay, now you run yourself, run yourself ragged and tired and exhausted and burnt out until we have an answer. So, you know, I think there's so much within that. This is an opportunity to note that, and this, you know, five small communities across the country are being able to have their say. Yeah. So it's really valuable. I'm just taking over the hours. Okay. Oh, there we go. Go on. That's beautiful. Will you be asking the final remarks? Yes, I will. All right. I took my time with that. Okay.