Nathalie J-D

Nathalie Jaloubert, an expert in international law, discusses her outfit choice for a conference in Rome and Madrid, emphasizing the need for flexible fabrics while traveling. She reflects on her career path, challenges in leadership, and the importance of enthusiasm and fairness in leadership. Nathalie highlights the value of experience and continuous improvement, particularly for women in the legal profession. She stresses the significance of preparation and boldness in her leadership approach. All right, so I've started recording and we can just do a little test test. Mm-hmm. Are you nervous? Do you have questions for me? No. Okay. Okay, great. Let's go. All right listeners today I am sitting here in the presence of a Nathalie Jaloubert who is a and oh my goodness Nathalie Jaloubert who is an expert in international law and I'll add the bio in there. Nathalie, welcome to Trailblazers and Coffee. We are so honored to have you. Thank you, Christina. I'm the one to be honored. So silly But no, it's wonderful to be in your presence to hear as we sit in a hotel in Rome Italy like just such a special time Nathalie, don't be nervous But tell me about today. Like what blazer are you wearing? What's your blazer mood? Well, Christina, we're in Rome, right? Yeah, and we're in September if the weather should be fair the Sun is starting to show so a light blouse Linen and a light blazer as well That's probably telling my mood today and I'll be moving to Madrid later today. So that's the adapted outfit Speaking in conferences today and tomorrow So, I don't know if that answers your question. It's perfect. Yeah. No, you have to be flexible. You're traveling You are you are a leader in your field, which means that you go all over the place But your home really is in France In France and I also very often travel to Brussels because I'm I'm working both in the Brussels and the Paris office more often In Paris, but still so yeah traveling in Europe, you know That's Europeans travel just as the Americans do within their own country. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure super easy But therefore you have to have flexible and non wrinkled fabrics. I'm sure indeed flexible is the most important and yeah, because We're running from you know, very early in the morning till night. So So yeah, that's the most important we keep the most delicate Clothing for parties when we're at home Occasions absolutely understood my mood today is definitely I'm feeling the the white Lightweight something or other for something outside because it is gorgeously sunny and a little bit humid. Mm-hmm So it's then also what's in your cup today? How are you powering this high-powered day? You're going to have Well, it's I'm coffee for sure. What else? Yeah, what else here we have one in the room and I even had my breakfast downstairs So yeah, I'm rather a tea drinker in the morning Okay, but but I made an exception here and that's also where I enjoy traveling changing your habits. It's good Because otherwise, you know, you kind of feel like a robot doing the same thing You know gaining every two seconds you can in your day They've been as efficient as possible when I travel it's different and in a way There's a bit of more time for me and to change things. It was just just walking to the conference center here is a delight Yeah, yeah. No, it's it's it's particularly special I know that I've already had a Doppio espresso and I'm sure that another one is on the way and that's just kind of Treats that we give ourselves when traveling but it also sounds to me and definitely like Part of this sense of difference or change or welcoming kind of that flexibility or adventure Is what makes you good at your job? Do you think that that's true? Well, I hope so because it's what I like. Yeah, that's what I enjoy When I started in in this business, I've always wanted to be in international law Because I wanted to travel to meet people Talk different languages, that's really part of the game for me being behind a computer For 16 hours a day is not what brought me into this It's part of it, but that's not what brought me into this. So these exchanges and travels are super important for me and Definitely must you know, it provides a wider you know wider scale and and Ability to address issues and to solve them. We also have international clients So when I'm advising US clients, I need to be you know to understand a little bit the culture Well, I spent some time in my life in the US. So when I was a kid, I would go there every summer Oh, yeah, and We talked about the Midwest and especially in the Midwest. Okay. So yeah, I That's what I can bring in on top of all what is necessary to do that business for sure Right, and I know that I mentioned it in the bio But you know, tell me a little bit about your journey to find your niche in the law, but also in leadership Well, it's been it's been a path What I would say was it wasn't the fastest path. I think it was a woman's path. Okay to leadership success and to leadership because you know, I remember when I was thought when I started People would ask me. What's your ambition? What do you want to be five years from now? Yeah, and the answers we would give the Women associates was very different from the male associates interesting Yeah, very interesting male associates would say I'm going to be a partner in this law firm or another law firm And they would they would just you know strive for it and succeed, okay My immediate answer was well, I'm just starting I I will first try to become a very good lawyer and we'll see what comes next, but let's not put you know the carriage before Suppose you have that before the animals car for the horse. Yeah before the horse So So step one for me is to be good at what I decided to do so I'm going to train and be as good as an antitrust lawyer as I can be and Probably my path has been longer than that of a number of Male colleagues, I'm sure but I'm fine with it because I think it's the right way to address things and it's probably you know, the resilience of of us women that Made me cautious. I can be I can be you know bold In when I handle matters, but but for my career, I've tried to make some decisions And I'm not changing law firms every two years That kind of thing. So yeah, probably a longer path But I think I made it where I wanted to be and I still have a lot to go for Before me. Yeah, it's not the end of it and and I'm sure I will see a number of additional evolutions And I'm looking forward to it. That's so exciting. I love how you're talking about The things that you've accomplished and then also the things that you have set before you Doesn't really matter in the end if it's a longer path if your path and indeed are you enjoying it very much? So and you know, it's important to have challenges To have overcome and to succeed in challenges and to still have some before you not to consider that you're there And that's that's what I want to for the next 15 years. Let's say. Okay. Yeah, that's a nice round number Can you talk about some of those challenges and how you overcame them? Well, maybe it won't in legal practice you can imagine that this is quite a stressful Activity with a lot of pressure as you mentioned. I'm an antitrust lawyer. So the fines incurred are very significant if a big merger fails because merger clearance is not obtained in the same so a lot of Stress and pressure but that's you know that that's many many others face similar situations I think the most important challenge for me the one I would like to tell you more about is in leadership Yeah, because that was not Necessary natural in me and I don't know if you can get leadership courses and Significant helpful leadership courses, but what's sure is that in law? Studies in Europe you don't receive any of these sure Not part of the practical skill No, you definitely not and so it was a you know You can see people sometimes what one of my girls is a natural leader. And so she it's it's natural I had to learn it and And and in this profession you need to learn it as you're still progressing in the legal practice, so that's pretty pretty tough, but But I think I've worked my way, you know with time and effort To try to become a good leader for my team First I think that's the first leadership role we have and then in the firm Leadership as well. Yeah, there's specific skills that you say that you're really good at that are your leadership skills Well, I think Enthusiasm is key. That's maybe not the answer you expected. That's all right, but but I think to be a leader You need to be enthusiastic and because that's what makes people you know follow follow you and and and want to develop similar skills and and follow away their own paths, but Similarly progressing in leadership. So enthusiasm and certainly fairness Would be the two most important qualities for me because People watch how you make decisions and if you're being fair And so that's why at least I try to be good at as best as possible Were either of those hard for you to develop No, not that much you see you leadership and you know bringing people to me and and train them and What I had to work on it to work on myself that I think is What's pretty natural for me, but but obviously always to be improved. You can always do better Absolutely. Yes I think that's part of the thing that we're hearing from a lot of leaders is that you can always do better and we're working On that but an experience matters so much. So that's what also makes you better at the on these two fronts I'm convinced about it. Yeah, I continue that way for sure. I love to hear the experience word I think it's something that women especially Talk about in terms of you know, taking time with your career getting good at it and then Working on your leadership skills if that's kind of the stepwise progression instead of thinking it About it from like the start to the end as as many men do still it's kind of a traditional way that they think about it there are principle or a belief of Leadership that you adhere to or that informs how you get up in the morning or how you are with your team Okay, I try to be as I think I mentioned that earlier on I try to be bold Yes, but always that brings us back to what you what you're saying watching my back and Preparing preparing preparing and indeed. I think that's very much a women Way of approaching things. Yeah, because mistake failure is immediate And and not just for men also for Mormons, you know it's there's You know, I think there's no error possible or you it we paid double. That's my experience as well. So Whenever I go in for a battle, I prepare as much as I can. Yeah Okay, that would be probably my leadership, you know motto or Approach. Yeah prepare for battle. Indeed. Oh my goodness. Yeah, you talk about it as a battle Well, you know law is kind of a constant battle you know, it's it's part of the game and sometimes we we Call ourselves Mercenaries, okay, because even when it's not in a litigation Clients come and want you to whatever it takes Take their mother and bring it Bring it out the best as possible. So yeah, we we have a lot of army words In this profession. Mm-hmm. That's okay. We also have a lot of army words Just I think in women leadership and I have a think about it like that Mm-hmm. There was a question that I was thinking of when you were talking and you were talking about going into battle Have have you had to has anyone ever? Underestimated you as a woman in your profession. I think this happens often often, you know Probably a bit less nowadays because you know When you've been working in an environment After a few years everybody starts to know you or know your reputation and so that helps but so less and less but but this has happened to me very often but but To go back to the army words. That's where you have a good chance to win and the battle When people underestimate you so at first it's it's it's not a very nice Thing to experience but when you transform it and you're able to win because you've been underestimated That's that that's a good way to go for success. And you know, I'm left-handed Okay, and I've always counted on that. I've done fencing for probably 10 a bit more than 10 years and I could I could count on the surprise element when I was fencing The other person in front of me was not as ready to face a left-handed person as their right-handed person and that element of surprise is something I learned to capitalize on yeah, and and so I've been accustomed to it and I'm fine with it. But this again this happens less and less We're very small, you know a very small environment People know each other your reputation proceeds, you know Well hopefully Let's say modest and and and humble. I don't want to be the one who directs amazing. Oh, there you go I keep my feet on the ground and move forward. That's a very balanced approach We talk often on this podcast, but also, you know just in conversation about the difficulties of the challenges But there are benefits and what do you what do you enjoy about being a woman meter? Either in your profession or just in general. What do you enjoy about your reputation? Well, I enjoy having made it and we're not so numerous But that's not the nice part that we're not so numerous, but but it's a reality and And well, I'm proud I'm proud. I was the first equity partner in the Paris office Wow on my firm And when I became an equity partner There were already over a dozen men equity partners Wow, and so it it was something Yeah, and so I'm proud of this development. It took a lot but but I made it and I'm also proud To have run that career and in parallel. I have two girls I've been a single mom for now something like 13 years. Oh my goodness. And so well, I'm changing every second I can spare Because I want time for for both of these important important missions and and important Developments for me, but also a bit of time for me such as the one we're having right now That I enjoy being in Rome, but before walking to the conference is it's great. So I chase every second To spare it. That's that sounds Both like a challenge But also enjoyable to you you're speaking about it and listeners you can't see Natalie's face But it is very enthusiastic and it's very warm and it looks like you actually enjoy chasing a second Yeah, um, well after you with a few years of practice. Yeah, you start to you know, it's natural and You master the exercise and and so yeah, I I Try when when I advise clients or when I represent them in court What's very important for me to build trust to see that they see I'm I'm I keep a cool head But everything's under control and that's what clients come to me for and it's the same in my family role You know sound And and but that calls for a lot of organization. I'm chasing this every second as I Said so, yeah, I enjoy that and Well, I don't think I could do something different at the moment. I love it. Good That's the most important part that the effort is worth it because you love it Um, I think that you know, we were at dinner last night. We were talking about, you know, some generational differences What would you tell up-and-coming? Women lawyers who maybe don't understand the chasing the second don't understand The process that you have been through to get to the good stuff Well, I'm thinking of two things First Be bold and that generation knows how to be bold much better than we did some time ago People but but work work work So that's the first thing but I thought we already mentioned that I think young people Kind of think they can have it both ways, you know and have the benefits of everything But but not spend the time and effort that we did so that would be my first advice Be prepared to work As hell to make it and I think as a woman yeah, even more so and And the second is probably You deserve it. So go for it. Well, it's kind of the same idea. I don't know what it came to say two things Oh, yeah. No, that was my other idea reach out to other women I think it's something we you know men also have as an instinct to Help each other make it Whereas probably because it's been difficult for us. It's kind of a solitary path. Yeah, and I I fought again the army words. I Thought very much. I have fought a lot against myself, you know watching other women progress in In the firm and sometimes I was a bit tough also on them thinking well they should do better They should prepare better But we should refrain from doing that. And so I'm fighting with myself to Support women as much as I can as I said, we're not numerous. So Elder needs to be really supportive and not Criticize the way they have been criticized or you know On their part, but also I think I haven't reached out enough when I was younger to All the women all the women in the in the business to help me because calling for help It's also something we don't like doing I think Generally speaking. We want to show where well, you know In the high-tech girl and we can do it do it all by ourselves Yeah, so that's also something help get help and help others. I love that I love that it resonates with me so much in in our profession we have mentors and professors and things like that, but Is that a message that other people other than yourself get in your profession or even as a woman? Well, it's it progresses slowly, but surely and We have put in place a mentoring program In the in our in our office in Paris And the first step of that mentoring program we decided to consider as a priority to do some some women Mentoring within the office. So I'm mentoring a younger associate from the M&A department And I think it's a good idea now Obviously, we will that's only the first step and so we will open it More widely because I think it's important not to remain among women, right? But we thought the first step was a priority one and you may consider especially with USI that we're starting late Definitely the legal environment in Europe is kind of you know, there's a old-fashioned. Oh, okay So it took time mentoring is something that really wasn't it was on an everyday basis working on matters But just within your team working with your the partner you work for It's very good that we do it across practices. So we started that only recently and I enjoyed great idea You know one of the what makes me the most pride proud In what I've accomplished so far is I don't know if that translates well in English but but it's transmission to younger generation, you know passing on and Training people and see what they what they became and how good they are now It's really that that's really my best prize. So oh, yes mentoring is also part of it Absolutely, and you know, I'm sitting here with you and your energy is so positive I'm sure that your mentees are also receiving that in addition to the be prepared for battle and messages Yeah, I'm not I mean I know what it takes but but I as we said, I love it And I think it's worth it definitely worth it. So yeah, I try to to give that energy around And I still have a lot to offer I'm so I'm so excited to just like sit here with you and bask in this amazing energy And I'm gonna I'm gonna take your stories with me throughout the day and just think about them Is there anything I didn't ask you today that you want to say or that you want to be asked? I think I mentioned it. It's about my girls and I know it's a challenge for many women to Handle both and we we had One of our councils and nothing that the antitrust team not in my team but in the arbitration team a few weeks ago decided to quit after 11 years of practice because she couldn't manage Running her career and her family life Altogether and having the impression that she neglected both in a way She and so she decided to quit that's Terrible and and I wish we do not lose so many Of our female colleagues because of that reason so I want to say you can make it That's what I try to do and I refer to the fact that I've been a single month for quite some time And I remember my first thought when this occurred. What was that? I just wondered whether I could continue in that business Considering what what it calls for in terms of engagement and energy and everything I wasn't sure I could maintain it and I've made it and so I want to say it's possible And it's an organization problem more than anything else. I'm very happy that the the council I'm A referent who didn't you know continue working and being torn between her you know? with too many Constraints and and Precisely losing that enthusiasm, so I think she made the right decision But but my hope is that more and more women Succeed making it and being enthusiastic on both sides without suffering Yeah, and that's what if I want to be the role model for something it will be that sure And that brings a question to my mind because as you mentioned it's an organizational issue So when you think about creating an organization that is more welcoming to women who are struggling What is needed in those environments? How do you change the system? Well? I'm not sure the You know what the younger generation wants I want more of the younger generations want is a solution you know Working for four days a week from home. Sorry. I'm not giving the message so many. I'll be will be waiting As I said we are mercenaries When when there's a hearing to prepare you can't say well now. Sorry I Have things to do right. It's my day off We work on weekends in that in that profession My way to organize isn't by by Hiring more people to do the same level of work because that doesn't work and having part-time people My answer to that is is kind of demanding I? Arrived in the office everybody knows that in the Paris office. I arrive every morning in the office at 6 30 a.m.. Okay at latest Mm-hmm and But that's the organization. I found I can work for at least two hours without being disturbed by anyone And that's my recipe for success among others with chasing Seconds where I can yeah But and that's what works for me, and I didn't succeed doing the part-time job But that helps me so I trained To not to lose time. I trained not to sleep too much, but still enough To do my job right and to have time for both my family and myself right so your Ability really here is to find that balance Personally to work within the system of what the legal profession demands Is there anything about the system that you wish would change? hmm well You took me by surprise on that one. There are many things we want to change Well the last thing I would want to change in our conversation that comes immediately to mind is that I want more Women equity partners with me. I want more successful women with me. I still see too often you know In Conferences you know for men speaking on stage and you know that's a good thing the younger generation brought us I would never have Asked for that when I was a younger associate in our in our office Woman associate came to us with a charter An equality charter for all types of diversity and in particular asking that at least 30% of women are represented in all conferences with sponsor sure yeah And that's something they think about every minute Yeah, sometimes our male partners don't even think about it even today, and they don't have any issue appearing three on stage Without any diversity so we can do much more there. We can do better Yeah, that yeah Then the point is you have to make people think about it You have to teach people how to think about it because their default is just not to yeah And we're not be aware that it is even an issue and the hope is to make it You know once people you raise their awareness. Hopefully they will see yeah I think being women in the legal profession where kind of a minority so you always think about it when when you're in the minority Yeah, it takes a bit more time when you're in the majority. Yes, so So clearly this is this is also already progressing Christina to be fair yeah, but we couldn't do we can do more sure sure we can always work to better The opportunity for other women for sure Nathalie how can we support you? How can we find and cheer you on in your profession, but also you know like Are you on social media? How can people watch you succeed in this next stage of your career? I am on social media Christina and I'd be happy to Show the link for this podcast On my on my account now I don't spend that much time on the social media as the new generations and especially considering all the workload I have already with all these The Case the case the cases and the leadership in the firm, but but I do I think it's very important and I think You you asked me what what can you do at your level? I think this podcast is an excellent initiative And that's precisely what what Christina you and Abby are doing is exactly what we need to get the message Across and I'm sure it's a reason you do it by the way Thanks, thanks to you for putting all these efforts and please do continue and And make sure that as many can have access to this podcast. I will give a little help by Circulating it to my community. Thank you and with much pleasure. It was a very good conversation It's also important, you know when you're you're not losing ever any second Sometimes just to sit down and think about these things and not that type of discussions with you. You've Your experience discussing with other Women leaders is also very valuable to me. Oh, thank you so much And thank you again for being a part of how Abby and I are trying to support women It's so important and it is something that we can all do better at so thank you for the compliments and thank you for your time and your grace and I'm happy to now call you an acquaintance and a fellow leader We're friends now. Yeah So I hope I'll see you again in Rome or elsewhere. I'll be with me with a lot of pleasure Christina and And all the best to Abby But I hope to to meet one day yeah for sure absolutely come visit us in Chicago, oh Thank you open invitation Thank you