Interview 2 - Sonia Chand

Sonia Chand, a runner and advocate, shares her journey from being diagnosed with Asperger's at 20 to facing challenges in school due to lack of understanding about autism. She discusses struggles with social skills and teachers' intolerance, highlighting the importance of recognizing diverse presentations of autism beyond stereotypes like in the movie Rain Man. Despite setbacks, Sonia remains resilient and is now an advocate for individuals on the autism spectrum, emphasizing the need for inclusivity and understanding in the community. Welcome listeners to Trailblazers & Coffee, our second episode. How exciting, Abby! Today in our studio we have with us Sonia Chand, runner, therapist, and advocate. Sonia, welcome. We're so happy to have you today. Thank you so much for having me. So we first met running with Chicago Distance Runners Association. I was just wondering, are you still running? I'm getting back into it. I had a knee injury that I, you know, I'm still kind of recovering from, but I'm getting back into it. I had to pull out of the New York City Marathon last November. Oh, shame. I smiled 12 and to say, you know, and I was struggling, but one thing I will always remember is how supportive the crowd was. You know, they stayed back. They treated me like I was an elite runner. I mean, I honestly felt like, oh my god, this is what it must feel like to be a front-of-the-pack runner, right? It really felt like that. It's like, because they treated everybody the same. They didn't care if you were first or last, and they kept their, you know, and that really was so emotional for me, but I am going to be going back to New York to finish. Oh good, good for you. To redo, because I was supposed to be in my 15th marathon overall that I've ever done, but I'm gonna go back in November, and I'm super excited to go back, and I'm gonna be running with a charity again, the Autism Speaks. I've run several marathons with that charity with Chicago, New York, so I'm going to go back and do that. I'm so excited to do that, so I'm building back up slowly, so if people see me on the path now, you know, people are going to be like, what? You know, but it's a slow process because I'm practically starting from scratch again, but you know what, I have to keep reminding myself that this is okay, too. Absolutely, absolutely, and I have to say that whenever we see Sonia on the path, she is the most just avid cheerleader out there for anyone, and everybody knows Sonia on the running path here in Chicago. Yeah, great. You're a real inspiration. Well, thank you. I know I met Christina, actually, through the running group, and because I used to see her, I think you were coaching, like you were pacing some groups, too. Yep. That's how I remember it, and you know, so I mean, and that's a nice thing. The running community, that's what's great about them, is you know what, everybody is so, it's an inclusive community. So inclusive and so welcoming, so again, welcome. We're so happy to have you here. We'll talk about running a little bit later, but what we're mainly here to talk about today is that you have released a book, and as I said in the intro, you're an advocate, and you're specifically an advocate for people on the autism spectrum. Yeah. So now you're very open about your own diagnosis, and doing a quick Wikipedia lookup of you, you were diagnosed with Asperger's at age 20, is that correct? Correct, back in 2002. I was a sophomore in college at that point, and I finally got diagnosed with the right thing, because growing up, I was diagnosed like a learning disabled, ADHD, and I think a lot of times too, well I think, well if we look back at, okay, so I was born in 1982, all right, and then you look at like what people knew about autism really back in the 80s, right? In the 80s and 90s, and I don't think people really understood what autism was, especially how it relates to females, okay? Sure. And you know, then in the later part of the 80s, you know, you had that movie Rain Man come out, and then everybody started thinking about that, you know, they started branding autism with that, right? And even though, don't get me wrong, it was a very good movie, and they had really good acting in the sense, right, they had top actors, I'm not going to disregard a whole piece of work, you know, but it didn't really accurately portray what autism is, right? And I appreciate the acting, I appreciate what went into the movie, of course, and I want to give the actors credit for what they had brought to the movie, but I think that movie did not tell you the story about autism, because not everybody, you know, on the spectrum will remember somebody's number, or will be able to count how many toothpicks fell on the floor, right? Right, that was more about savant. That was more savant. Like anybody else, people on the spectrum have their strengths and challenges like everybody else, right? And so not everybody who's on the spectrum is a savant. Right, so what was life like for you before you were diagnosed? Very confusing. I, you know, I guess the thing as a child, you know, like going to school and stuff, you know, I almost was in a world of my own. I didn't really, you know, socialize with anybody. I just kind of was, I didn't really know about friendship. Like, I used to see people connecting and stuff like that when I was very young, but I didn't really understand, like, friendship. You know, I think it started to hit more in, like, first, second grade, you know, when I used to see, like, people having, you know, birthday parties or things of that nature. And I remember, you know, it would be very lonely because I was not able to connect with anybody, and I didn't have the social skills. And I think, you know, my efforts to try to connect with people kind of drove people more away, because I would, you know, call them a lot, and people would be like, what do you call me for, you know? And these are people that, when I look back, I was like, we never really bonded at school, right? And it was at the time, too, you could look up anybody in the Yellow Pages. But people have had to tell me to stop calling. I've been told, you know, not to, you know, just leave people alone and stuff like that. And then, so, mind you, so first, second grade, I went to a parochial school because my parents thought it would be a good place to send me, because they went to some Christian schools in India, even though they're not Christian, okay? Sure. So then, I failed second grade. Oh. You know, I swear to God, people ask Big O Sonia, how do you fail second grade? I said, maybe I am a savant, after all. You know? So, the teacher was, no, she was, what a wretched viewer, okay? So, anyway. You can say it. We don't care. Okay, great, I was a wretched bitch. Yeah, she was, and, you know, here's the thing with her, she was very intolerant, right? So, she wanted people to walk the straight and narrow. And if you've ever seen that movie, Dead Poets Society, right? Of course. Oh, I love that movie. So good. But you saw how regimented that school was for the students. Yes, and what it drove them to, the students. Yes, and that's exactly how she was. Oh, boy, okay. She was very much of that mindset, right? Like Mr. Noland in the Dead Poets Society. Good memory, yeah. Right? Okay. So, she was very regimented and, you know, she, I remember one day in class, she asked us to pull out some worksheet, or do something, and I didn't have it, because I didn't have my desk. I couldn't find it. Because that's what happens when we're kids. So, she looked at my desk, she came over and really picked up the desk, because you know those desks, how it was like, you had like a, like a little, like a slot where you just put your books. Yeah, sure. Yeah, folders. She came, she looked over at the desk, picked it up. No. Like it was a weight in a gym, and threw the contents on the floor, and I remember looking around, and I remember people, I remember one girl's face in particular. She was like, yeah, like mouth like a gape, flabbergasted, complete look all around, because people were like, even though they didn't say anything, but I think that there were some people that were going, what is happening here? Right, and I had to go on my knees and pick up material in front of the whole class. Of course. That's heartbreaking. Yeah. You were so young. This is like, this is like your, this is like seven, eight year old kids, right? No, no, no, I was six. Oh, what? Seven, seven, excuse me, seven, because I was, yeah, seven years old at the time. And she did that, and I was like, you know what, I mean, what teacher, but you know what, that's just, that goes to show how out of touch, really, she was. Yeah, a lot of people. Yeah, you know, and so I really, and here's the thing, it didn't stop at that school. Like, I had my desk dumped another time before I went to class, and it was at the school where I redid second grade, there was this one teacher, you know, I had to go back and think about this, and you know, just knowing what I know now from my training as a therapist, I think that teacher may have had alcohol addiction, some addiction. Oh, goodness. Because she was moody every single day. You know, I think she may have had some addiction or something going on in her life, because she would be very cranky all the time, screaming at all the students. Yikes. You know, and if I had to look back at it, it's very much a behavior of somebody who struggles with some sort of. Something. Something, yeah. Right, right, so her own struggle, and then like, compounded by the fact that at that time, there really wasn't, there just wasn't a full picture of how, how this can look for a young girl. Right. And how these symptoms can show up, and how this can look different across the board. Boys, girls. Right. And so, I mean, so she was, so basically, because at that public school, I had three teachers. I had my homeroom teacher, I had a reading teacher, and a math teacher, so we had to, you know, go to different classrooms, different teachers to different, and that one, she was the English reading teacher or something, she, she was the one who came to my homeroom before all the kids got to school that day. Found where my desk was, and just dumped out all the content, so I remember when I was walking into the classroom, I heard some people going, whoa, before I got into the room, and then sure enough, I saw a whole bunch of stuff on the floor, you know. And it was your stuff. It was my stuff. So cruel. And then I had to, once again, I was on my knees picking it up, and I saw, I made eye contact with my homeroom teacher for a split second, and she looked like, like, she looked like she felt bad for me. She looked like, honestly, one of those puppies you yell at after they do, like, urination in your house. Oh, like, a shame. She looked really, like, she gave a coy smile. She kind of looked away, you know, and I could kind of tell, like, she looked kind of scared in some way, shape, or form. And then, soon enough, this lady comes to the door, to the door, I named her Mrs. Sparks in the book. She comes in, and she says, you know, something, she was yelling about me being disorganized, and then she accused me of having her stuff in my desk, which I don't even remember ever taking. Right. And she's like, I found my stuff in there, or whatever. And so, of course, she yelled it loud and loud through the whole class. It's messed up, so, you know, we moved towns after second grade, thank God. I was like, thank God, right? But, and that's what I thought at first, thank God, but it ended up going from basically one fire pit to the next. Oh, gosh. Because, you know, I didn't, you know, things, because the friendship, the social issues never got better, right? Right. And I was acting out a lot in school, too, in retaliation to how I was getting treated. Of course. And, of course, with that joke, you know, that made things worse. You know, I thought I was making progress when I made some friends in third grade, but then those friends didn't stick around, because I used to cry all the time at school, I'd melt down. Oh. You know, things like that, so they didn't stick around. And then it was not until fifth grade when things really hit the fan at that point, because we went on a field trip to a camping ground. The whole purpose of that trip was you were to learn how pioneers, like the early settlers lived, so you'd do some camp activities and things like that. Oh, yeah. And then in the nighttime, there was camp skits that people were assigned to do. Of course. And then the principal and his teachers, they did like their own parody skit at the end. And then the principal said that we had a choice, whether we could either go back to the cabin or we could take a walk with him, some camp personnel, another teacher, chaperones, around the camping ground. Sure. And so most people decided because, you know, who wants to go back to a cabin, right? So I went to, you know, so most people decided to go for the walk. And it was optional, because they were going to go for a walk regardless, right? So they, so we all went, lots of us went for the walk, because I liked to be active. I thought, you know, like I like to walk, I like to run. I was like, okay, no, you know, to be out there. And it was the nighttime, so this one, I was, and at this point, you know, people had made it clear they didn't want me around their group, you know? So I was kind of walking around by myself, and I started screaming I hate myself, because I was so frustrated. Oh. And then one guy, who I had a crush on at the time, turned around. He goes, hey, Sonia, do you want to kill yourself? I said, yeah. And I didn't think about what that meant. Oh, God. I didn't even know, like I heard of what suicide was, but I didn't really know what it was, if that makes sense. But I heard that word before. So I go, and then before I knew it, I screamed, I hate myself, I want to kill myself, because that's how much I hate myself, or something. And like, yeah, so I said, yeah, I hate myself, I want to kill myself, because that's how much I hate myself. And then I was told off for it, of course, by one girl. She was like, can you just stop it now? Stop it. And then people started, like, harassing me about it at school, you know? In the sense of, they just kept asking and asking and asking. Provoking. They wanted to ask, you know, like keep asking, provoking. But, you know, I remember that night after I screamed it, and I was told to shut up, basically, in indirect words. I saw the night sky, and that's what I thought. I saw, like, you know, like a full moon, and stars were out. You know, you could see the whole, like, solar system, practically. Right, that night, right? What it felt. And I just, I looked at the sky, I'm like, you know what, I could live here, I could live with the stars. Because that's where I thought people go anyway, to go be with the planet. That's what I thought, at least. And, but it really, I just wanted to calm to the storm. And it just didn't get better in middle school, either. It just continued getting set up, so, like, set up to act out, and things like that. So, and it got bad to a point where, basically, my rights got taken from me, in the sense of, so I had to take a two-week leave of absence, because what had happened is, by the time sixth grade rolled around, I, I made up a cheer about the guy that I had a crush on, that I was referring to with you guys earlier, the one that, you know, asked that question. And, because I was bored one day, during the passing period, because people were going out and talking to their friends, and people were hanging out with their friends, and I was alone. And so I just, out of the blue, I made up this cheer, and then some people saw it, and they were laughing, and they were like, oh, that's kind of cool, I'm getting attention. And then, next thing you knew, I was, it became a repertoire, because one girl, after I finished lunch, because they used to have doors open, so people could go outside after, and play on the, in the basketball courts, and hang out on the grass in that area. And so I went outside, just to go stand and get some fresh air, and this one girl from class, one of my classes, came up and goes, hey, so I'm going to do that thing you were doing yesterday. I was like, what thing, and that cheer, and she started doing some arm movements, and then she's like, and then when I remembered, she's like, wait a minute, before you do anything, let me go get my friends. Sure enough, she was from a popular group. So they then became my kind of audience, at first. And then, next thing I knew, I had so many people watching it, it became a repertoire, people asked me to do this, you know, in class, you know, classes, passing periods, it was every day at lunch, you know. And you thought you were being included, you were accepted. Yeah, because people used to laugh every time I would finish the cheer. Yeah. But, you know, I never understood why they were laughing. Right. Because I never thought it was funny. Right. I was like, what's so funny? But, yeah, but for me, it felt like, you know, like that, like a dopamine rush, right. It was like that thing, like an exhilaration, kind of like when you, the feelings you get, like when you ride on a roller coaster, for example. Yeah. Right. And for me, I thought I was like that person who was winning the ticket in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Yeah. Won the golden ticket, right. Sure. And for me, I just, and that's kind of what it felt like for me, but then I, you know, it started backfiring because, you know, the band, I was in band at the time, and there was an opportunity for us to do a color guard routine in the high school football game, halftime performance, okay. And I took the opportunity to do it, and it was a workout, but I did that, and then when I was finished, so, you know, we're talking 1994 at that time, 6th grade, 1994, 1995 was my 6th grade year. I, my mom was putting away her camcorder. You know, she used to have one of those old school, you know, and those were huge, too. You know, it was one you really had to like assemble and hook up and all that. And she, so she was, because she used to video and do a lot of, take a lot of pictures and video stuff, she was putting away it back in that little, like basically it was like a suitcase that she had to put it back into. And, no, a group of guys then, I was standing by the bleachers, and a group of guys came up to me, and they go, hey, someone could do your cheer. And the other one goes, do it now. And then, I'm trying to use, and they were like, do it, do it, do it. And then my mom had to come to them and say, hey, leave her alone. And they left, but then she, she was like, what is a do it now? And I didn't tell her. I was like, that's nothing. And then she's like, she knew better than to believe me, so she called the assistant principal on Monday. And he goes, okay, well, I'm going to try to figure out who those guys are, but you have to realize your daughter likes to do this kind of stuff for people. Yikes. No, it's fun. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right, it's your fault. Okay. Yeah. You know, it's basically, that's what he told her, you know. Wow. So there was just a lot of misunderstanding. Lots of misunderstanding. In her early life. Lots. And you know what it was also? And, you know, I needed like social skills training. I needed, you know, emotional regulation. I needed sensory regulation training, right? Or coping skills. I needed more of those. I also needed to understand, you know, empathy building, right? All those things that, you know, we think about when we work with somebody who's on the spectrum, right? Like, I know I have, I'm pretty sure both of you have met clients who are on the spectrum. For sure. You know, those are things that, you know, like, people need to be explained, right? Like, certain things, they need to be explained and treated with compassion instead of being treated as a problem. Right. You know, and throughout my life I was treated as a problem. So when I started going to, but I was forced then to go to a psychiatrist because I got so depressed at school. Sure. And I started talking about suicide for a great time and then making up these stories of fake attempts I've done and stuff. And then I went to, I had to take a two-week leave of absence and then I got the letter to come back. And then that's when the school decided I was not fit to be in their school district and they wanted to kick me out and send me to a school for troubled children, basically. Wow. And then my parents had to fight and they had to hire help from the psychiatrist to fight for my rights. Uh-huh. And then basically the price that I had to pay to stay in that school is I was put under restriction. So basically, for all practical purposes, it was like you're getting treated like a prisoner in plain clothes. Gotcha. So I went to school, I had to check in at the resource, they used to call it the resource room, which was a special education room. I had to wait for five minutes until after the bell has rung and all the kids went to class. Then I was escorted by either the paraprofessionals or the special ed teacher herself to go and pick up my books and take my books to class. You know, you do your passing period, you know, the typical what you do during passing periods at that time. Sure. Get my books, whatever, go to class. Then five minutes before the bell rang, I'd have to be picked up and then escorted back to the resource room. I was not allowed to eat lunch in the cafeteria. And the reasoning for all that, they wanted to get me off the minds of people. Ooh. Yeah. Wow. Oh, that's a gut punch. My God. So they're like, oh, yeah, this is the way we do it. But here's the thing. Everybody notices when somebody walks in late. Yeah. Everybody notices when people leave early. Everybody notices, you know, like, yes, people see this. What happens if a kid happens to go to the bathroom, you know, at that time and then they see you walking with a teacher or paraprofessional? Like, people know, you know? People will know, oh, you're not allowed to be around people. Right. And did anyone ever ask you what you needed at that time? No. They said that this was to help me. They knew what was best for you without asking you. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. They thought they knew the answer, and the answer was to treat somebody like a prisoner in plain clothes so that, you know, it's like in many ways it's like you committed a crime and now you're paying the price for it. But the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Right. Right? Well, the definition of crime doesn't even fit. Right. The definition of crime doesn't fit. Of course, the managing of your behavior. Go ahead and ask. I know you've got a question. About Buck? Oh. No, about the diagnosis. You know, I do have some questions about the diagnosis. So you've kind of laid the foundation for us. You were misdiagnosed. You weren't diagnosed. You weren't really asked about your real experience. So you get to college, and you get this diagnosis. I think we both just want to know about – actually, I'm going to pause for a second. Okay. You don't have to pause this. Okay, great. Perfect. What is my question? Sure. I'm sorry. I thought it was about like a follow-up about Asperger's being underdiagnosed. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, you kind of addressed that a little bit, but – well, how about we – okay. So you get a diagnosis of Asperger's at 20. Who diagnosed you? What was your experience? We would love to know. Just because, you know, as psychologists, and, you know, we hear a lot about autism among men and young boys, but a lot less so when it comes to young women, girls. So how did that come up, and what did you learn? What was that experience like? Okay. So the whole thing came about was – so in my junior year of high school, I switched – I started seeing a different therapist. Before my earlier high school years, I remember the therapist I even saw beforehand used to point out that my social skills didn't match up to other people my age. And she used to make some pointers, but she never really thought to investigate for autism. But if anything, that therapist kind of crossed her boundaries a little bit by trying to facilitate friendships for me with particularly another – one classmate in particular. And, you know, and she would get feedback about me from other classmates and would tell me what they said without divulging names, which I thought was unprofessional. Right. As everybody knows, as a therapist, even if you do see people who go to the same school district or you know people who go to a certain school, you're not supposed to divulge, oh, I know this person. It's just too easy to figure it out, who it is. That's a great example. If you give even just a couple of – a couple of identifiers. Right. And, you know, and the thing is, she – yeah, and she – you know, she never told me who they were, but she'd be like, oh, just start being on the lookout of who might be starting to be nice to you as a way to divulge. Oh. You know, it's just like, oh, you'll see. You know, like, make those kind of hints. And it's like, you know what? That's unprofessional, right? So, well, what ended up happening is that person that she tried to facilitate a friendship with didn't – didn't treat me very well. And so she wasn't the best of friends to me. You know, she used to keep asking me about why I did what I did in my past and things like that. And it just didn't make me feel good. I was very insecure at the time. But they were still making you the problem. Right. And, you know, she kept asking questions about it. And I remember the therapist did intervene when I told her, and she did say, okay, I'm going to tell her. You know, she – she did tell her not to ask me anymore. Okay. And she – but I just feel like a lot – a lot of things about me got twisted. And what ended up happening is that therapist lashed out at me and said I was not worthy of being a friend or having as a friend and just made fun of me, stuff like that. So I stopped seeing her. And then I actually went and saw another therapist my second semester of junior year. And I stayed with her throughout my senior year just for that support. Because I was so lonely and so depressed and lonely and angry. I had a lot of anger at that time, of course, you know. And so she helped me realize how angry I was and helped me work through some of my anger. But, you know, also helped me understand my pain, too. So she did a good job. She did a good job. But in my freshman year of college, I went to a local – I stayed local before branching out to the main campus. And this is what she noticed then, too, you know. Because she noticed I was still having problems. You know, she thought that maybe some of the social things might get better. But I remember even when I was – my junior – my senior year of high school, she started saying, you know, Sonia, I think you should get psychologically tested to see what's going on. Then after my freshman – Smart. Smart. Yes. And then my freshman year of college, I got psychologically tested. And they referred it then to a neuropsychologist. And that's – so she was a smart lady in that sense because she knew there was more of the story that was going on, certain behaviors, certain things I was doing, certain ways of processing. Did things make sense once there was a label put to it or not? Oh, absolutely. It's like a blindfold went off. Oh. Because it's like, you know, you spend your first 20 years navigating a maze in a blindfold, basically. Yes. Then the blindfold gets taken off. But here's the thing. You're deep in the trenches of the maze and you don't even know how you got there. You know? And it's like, okay, you're trying to find your way out now. And so it's – that's what it felt like. But it made a lot of sense. And I'm like, you know what? I get it finally. Because, you know, people used to talk about autism briefly in – I mean, I've heard that word when I was in high school because people used to talk about it for, like, presentations because I took psych in high school. You know, I took an advanced psych course and one girl was going to do a presentation of autism. And I was like, what is that? Because I've heard of it and I couldn't put, you know, a definition to it. Sure. But then when they used that former term of Asperger, I did so much research on it after and, you know, and I feel like, you know, everything made sense the more I also researched it because finally I was like, oh my God, this was me. This was me. This was me when I was reading stuff. Wow. Yeah. That sounds pretty powerful. So before we started recording today, Sonia and I were chit-chatting a bit about her book, which we just really want to highly, highly recommend. And I had asked you a bit about when did you start writing the book. You said you started writing it 20 years ago. Yes. So what kind of, at that time, where were you in the journey of, you know, getting that diagnosis? What was the intention behind starting a book? Or were you just kind of journaling and writing or just getting your thoughts down? Was the whole plan from the get-go to write a book? Pick one of those questions. I asked a lot of questions. But we'd just love to hear about how your journey with this book came to be. Oh, absolutely. So back in 2005, I went with my parents to a book fair in Chicago. And, you know, I was like, okay, you know, maybe I'll just go buy a couple books, maybe listen to some music, get a drink, right? Like things you'd expect out of a festival, you know, in the summertime in Chicago. Absolutely. And we were not living in the city at the time. And so we'd come in, and one thing I was not prepared for was the overwhelming sense of empowerment. Because the authors there that were selling the books were sharing their personal narratives and sharing their stories of, like, war and trauma and what they've had to overcome and turning their mess into a message, right? Like whatever thing, right? And I've heard this phrase before. I've heard people use this term, turn your mess into a message. That's amazing. I've never heard it before. That's so inspirational. Yes. I've heard this before at one of the conferences I've attended. And I can't remember exactly who said it, but it's not something I made up, I promise. Or painted the purpose, I've heard that as well. But, like, people were really turning their, they're transforming their narratives in their writing and sharing with people, right? And I felt like, you know what, if they could share their stories with other people and what that was like for them, why can't I share mine? Yeah. And so I started writing it, and then I went away to law school. I didn't want to be a lawyer. You know what, I started getting second thoughts about being a lawyer before I went to law school. Sure. So by the time I went to orientation, I was kind of hoping I'd fail out. I really was. I mean, you know what, at the end of the day, I was like, it was like a part of me felt like it would be relieving to fail out because then I could just go to my purpose of going into something different where I could feel better suited. But, you know, coming from, you know, an Indian family, it was either doctor, lawyer, or you're a piece of garbage kind of thing. Sure. Or, that's not accurate, actually. Let's add engineering or business to it, the list first, and then pretty much that. Sure. And, you know, it was all about status and all this other stuff, and I just don't, it wasn't fulfilling me. So, you know, when I went away to law school, that writing got put on the back burner. Then I started to pick it up again a little bit in 2010 after I finished taking the bar exam, and then that got put, you know, then again, then I moved to New York City because I thought, okay, this could be my last chance to try to like this profession. So I actually did enjoy the LLM program and financial services and working because I did work at the banks for a bit. Oh. But, I mean, I enjoyed it at first, but then it got old. Let's just put it this way. I didn't enjoy working at the banks. I enjoyed knowledge that I've learned. Sure. Because I found it useful, but I did not enjoy the work. Okay. And, you know, I tried my best to hang on, but I just couldn't do it. So, I mean, I made that decision to switch to mental health, you know. I faced, of course, a lot of resistance from family, you know, and they didn't want me to change. And I think people have said before, you know, I've talked to my parents that I think the thing is they didn't want me to make a mistake, right? Sure. And people have said this before because even when I was in law school, I was so unhappy, right? And I didn't fit in at the law school at all, you know. I wasn't really fitting in. And I wasn't like other people, you know. And, you know, I just kind of felt like disconnected in some ways, right? Because I used to see, you know, how guys would approach other girls and how they would interact. And for me, I didn't quite feel the same way. I didn't like to look the same way in my eyes, right? Okay. I never could fit in. And I remember then my parents went to this meeting in Chicago for autism. And there was a psychologist who came and discussed autism spectrum to the group using his expertise. And then my parents got his number. And then I started seeing him, talking to him twice a week. But he doesn't have anything but supportive. He's like, oh, you know, it would be really heartbreaking if you don't finish a program. I don't know if you should be a therapist because you're on the spectrum. Oh. Yeah. Okay. And that's just the thing. And I don't mean any disrespect. I know you both are PhDs, okay? We have studies. Yes. Studies. Yes. But, you know, I mean, people with doctorates in psychology, okay? We know. We know some of them, you know. It's like, how ignorant can some of them be, okay, to make the comments that they make? Yes. They can be a lot ignorant. Yes. We are nodding our heads up and down. Yeah. And I know, and here's the thing, for people who don't know PsyD, from what I understand, at least you're actually going and you're still seeing clients, correct? Because PhD, that's more focused on research. It can be. It can be. Yes. It can be like a PhD in clinical psych and get the same kind of training that PsyDs do. But there is a divide. Yes. Yes. And, you know, from what I remember from looking at the programs, right, at one of the schools in Chicago, with PsyD, you can... Highly clinical. It's highly clinical. But, you know, but here's the thing, you're still interacting. I think they still want you to interact with clients. Oh, yeah. Yeah. For sure. And again, you know what, everybody plays a role, right? So I'm a licensed professional counselor, but we work with psychologists to get people tested, right? Right. So we refer, right? Well, I got really bad, you know, if they think they have, like, really bad, you know, bipolar, for example, right? Or they need to get tested for maybe something else, maybe some cognitive issue. We send them to a psychologist who has the tools because I can't do the testing. You know, even with autism, I can't test anybody, you know, and I know what they are. I know, like, what the tests are to test somebody who needs a diagnosis, but I can't do that. So that's where psychologists would come in. But this one, he, so this psychologist, I'll tell you, he had a son on the autism spectrum, okay? Okay. But his son got diagnosed young. Sure. I think three. Wow. Oh, something. So intervention. Early intervention, you know, and I think for him, you know, I think he used to use a lot of his own ways of, his own issues and put them onto me because I remember he would tell me things like, he used to focus on weight all the time. Oh. You know? Because the first time I met him in office, you know, I was talking about how I'm getting back into the gym and how I'm, you know, trying to lose some weight now. As like a coping mechanism. Yeah. Right. And then. And trying to get healthy again because, you know what, I wasn't taking the best care of myself in law school because I was not happy. You know, I wasn't. And, um, I told him I was going back to, um, you know, I was getting back into the gym and stuff. And then he was telling me about how, you know, I needed to drop at least 15 pounds. Yay. Based on what? Ah. You're acting crazy. Yeah. Was it just some arbitrary recommendation? Arbitrary. Yeah. I mean, here's the thing, you know, you're a therapist, not a nutritionist or personal trainer. Right. Yeah. You know, if you're a nutritionist or personal trainer, that's, that's their, that's their job. This is, this is beyond his scope. It's all. Yes. Right. It's the kind of advice that you're going to a personal trainer or an MD for. You don't go to a psychologist for weight loss advice. Yeah. I think in, in this situation, it sounds like that is exactly the opposite of what you were looking for. You were looking for different ways of managing through. Um. But at this point. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it Yeah, we do the best we can. Many people do. When we find a provider that. You do the best you can and you find a provider who finally understands you. Yes. It's like when you're holding on for dear life. Yeah. And you're about to reach terminal stage and you find somebody. Mm-hmm. Who can treat you. Right. And you're like, you know, you jump with your joys. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. And at first I thought, okay, let me just stick with this guy. I better do that because he understands me. But you know what? I mean, he would vacillate a lot. Sometimes it would be supportive, other times critical. So it was very much like being on a rocking ship basically. Mm-hmm. Okay. You know, and so. So there were, there were a lot of obstacles even after you were diagnosed to find kind of the right. The right therapist. The right therapist but also the right path. It sounds like. The right path. The right, yes, in career wise. And you know, the legal profession wasn't for me. And I think, you know what? And I, I understand why my parents wanted me to be a lawyer. And to some extent, and I feel like for them, they thought because they saw being a lawyer with status. And I think they thought, okay, if you have high status, you'll get a seat at the table in society. Mm-hmm. Truth of the matter is, and also here's the thing, I have to brainwash my own head to believe this stuff too. Okay. Of course. And because I was like, you know what? Because I didn't know any other way out. I didn't know any different. I didn't have the tools. I did not advocate for myself or to say I, you know, and even when I tried to say before, I don't like this field, I want to drop out. You know, I was met with a lot of resistance. Mm-hmm. Right? So, you know, that's why, you know, I turned to self-destructive behaviors, you know? Right, right. I'm sorry to hear that. Is this part of why you were inspired to write your book? I partly, yes, I wanted to share that as well. I wanted to share, you know what? I wanted to help others, you know, who are on the spectrum and help others dispel the myth, right? These myths that, you know what? If you do X, Y, and Z, you're going to be liked. No. Because life doesn't work that way. Mm-hmm. You know? Life doesn't. Well, an autism spectrum occurs across gender and our podcast is really tailored toward women. We've, we've been doing this for a long time. We've been doing this for a long time. 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