Ellen and Julianna

Abbey Brown and Christina Pecora welcome Dr. Ellen Astrakhan Fletcher and Dr. Juliana Gorder on their podcast "Trailblazers and Coffee." Ellen runs EAF ReCenter and Wooly Arrow Consulting, while Juliana works at the Chicago Center for Evidence-Based Treatment. They discuss their blazer moods and coffee choices. The hosts highlight Juliana's book on Radically Open DBT Workbook for Anxiety, and the guests share insights on collaboration and time management in their busy careers. Ellen and Juliana emphasize the importance of working with the right people and building strong relationships for successful projects. All right, we're back. Welcome to Trailblazers and Coffee. I am Abbey Brown and I have with me Christina Pecora, co-host Christina, and today we have two incredible colleague, friend, mentor, guru, clinician, researcher, extraordinary, extraordinary, extraordinary, I don't know what I'm saying. Incredible friend, Dr. Ellen Astrakhan Fletcher and Dr. Juliana Gorder. We're so happy to have the both of you here. Welcome. Thank you for having us. We're excited to be here. So before we get into the meat of the podcast and some of our intro questions, would the two of you mind just sharing very briefly about who you are, what you do, and just anything about yourselves that you could let our guests know briefly? Who should go first? I'll let Ellen go first. It seems appropriate because I'm under controlled and I can't control my, you know, I have no inhibitory control. So I'll jump in. Yeah, anyway, I currently am a business owner. And so I have two businesses, EAF ReCenter, which is my clinical psychology business. So clinical work and training and teaching and all of supervising. And then I also have my consultation business called Wooly Arrow Consulting. And so in that I consult to organizations, consult to family businesses as one of my fun kind of side, I don't know what. Hustle. There you go. Yeah. And so, you know, running those two businesses and just having fun doing whatever I want to do, which I am really enjoying in life. That sounds so good. And I'm so lucky because I've gotten to do some, I'm currently doing some work with you, Ellen, so we can chat about that as well. How about you, Juliana? Yes. So I'm Juliana Gorder. I'm a clinical psychologist and I work currently at a practice called the Chicago Center for Evidence-Based Treatment, where I'm also the director of clinical innovation. And we treat children, adolescents, young adults, but really the lifespan of eating disorders and anxiety disorders. And in addition to that, I also do consultation and training, specifically in radically open DBT, which we'll be talking a little bit about, but also with practices that are interested in integrating temperament into their clinical programming and transdiagnostic models. And what else? I think that's, that covers, I guess we'll get into more. Yeah. So if I forget something, I can always add it, but that's me. That sounds so good. And yes, we will dig into what under controlled and controlled and inhibitory control, all of that, what that means here soon. So here at Trailblazers and Coffee, this podcast was born and bred out of a shared passion of mine and Christina's love for fabulous blazers and coffee. Originally, it may or may not have been bourbon. We switched things over to coffee. And we always ask our guests, what if you were to have a blazer mood, what would that be today? Who would like to get us going? Well, I'm wearing a blazer, so I can go. I'm happy to go first this time. Yeah. I wasn't sure what to make of this question. So I, okay. So what I was thinking is. It's a projective measure. Yeah. So I am wearing a blazer and I think it does fit my blazer mood. It's sort of like a, I would say like a sage green tan. There's a little bit of lavender in here and it makes me think of, so I find this to be sort of like a transition from like late summer, early fall, started the school year type of piece. So I feel like that's sort of the energy that I've been having right now is it's still mid August, but with some of the rain we've been getting, it's been making me feel kind of excited for fall and some of the, you know, like Halloween stuff coming out. So I think that's sort of my mood is like, I've been having a nice summer and I'm starting to get excited for fall to come around the corner. That's a lovely answer. And it did sound like a latte. You're the green and the lavender. I'm like, oh, that sounds like a nice fall latte. Yeah. Yeah. How about you, Ellen? Well, not nearly as well thought out. So I have mine with me. It's beautiful. Much more under controlled. And that was kind of my mood. So I don't know if you can tell, but it does sparkle. It's got a little shine in it. And it's got like burgundy and gold and black and those kinds of colors. And then like an outline of black. Ooh, that's chic. I'm loving it. And I, this is my favorite. I don't usually wear blazers because I'm more of a like comfy and, you know, I'm just going to be chill and relaxed and blazers just feel binding. I don't know somehow. But I wear this one because it's so pretty. It's beautiful. Thank you. It's gorgeous. I recently, I always go like a little rogue with this question, but I recently bought consignment, some free people pants that are like orange and red and patterned. And I would like to find the equivalent blazer. And I will say, Ellen, there are blazers out there that are completely free flowing and cozy. We're going to just have to get you one. I might. Yeah, you might have to take me shopping. I will. Let's see. How about you, Christina? As long as that shopping trip can be a field trip, like a group field trip, I am in. So my mood today in my absolutely freezing cold August or office in the dead of August with all of this humidity, I am wishing that I had this beautiful blue foiled wool plaid blazer that I saw in a shop window the other day. I might have to go get it later today. It's gorgeous. But I would like something cozy. I'm feeling like I need some coziness and warmth as we over air condition ourselves here in this last summer month. I think you should get that blazer to celebrate. Oh, yes. I love it. Love this energy already. And then our next question is, what is in your cup today? So I am drinking my usual mini diet Coke. It's lunchtime. What are you all drinking today? Well, I've got my water because I'm already drinking my water. What? Did you say what? Oh, I said good. Is that boring? Is that good? Oh, yeah. I actually love a good glass of ice water. It's very refreshing. Also, because I already had my coffee with my lavender syrup and my oat milk, which is my favorite. If we were meeting an hour ago, that would be in my coffee cup. But just ice water. Sounds good. I'm having my leftover Starbucks from this morning, but I did put it in a special mug for today because I know this podcast is about women in leadership. So I brought a mug with one of my favorite women, Betty White, giving a powerful hand gesture. I'll let the listeners decide what that would be. But in my mug, I have my go-to Starbucks order that I put in here to repeat or to reheat, which is a brandy Americano with a splash of vanilla sweet cream. I highly recommend. Yum. These do sound excellent. I'm not going to make any interpretation on these. We'll just let them be. Interpret this, ladies. I am having some very crap Keurig coffee because I am so tired. It has been a very long week and I have not gotten adequate sleep. So we are just pumping ourselves with whatever caffeine is available. And here at the office, it is crappy Keurig. And that says a lot because I consider you like a coffee bean guru, like you grind your own beans and all of that. So that's something. You're doing great, though. Yes, Brittany. No, I'm kidding. We are 100 percent professionals doing. And it's just so cool to reconnect after all of these years. And then Ellen has been a mentor and dear friend for a long time. And Christina, what's your connection? So my connection is I used to teach Juliana when she was at the Chicago School and I was an adjunct faculty. And I think I had you in a couple of courses, but I think the one that I remember most is it was a practicum, a clinical practicum, I think, or advanced practicum. And you were also on my dissertation committee. Yes. Yes. Oh, my God. That's true. I think we all try to black that out. And I won't bother asking you the question. What have you done with that? Because it's not kosher. Right. Right. Well, and I love that we all have our journeys have intersected yet again. And I have this wonderful book here with me and the listeners cannot see it, but it's just it's mentally published. And it's called The Radically Open DBT Workbook for Anxiety. And it is authored by our guest today. And most of our listeners have a passion for women in leadership, and many of them are looking for guidance and inspiration on how to kind of do all the things that we want to do in our careers and also personally. So how given that you've written this book, you are published, you've done other you've done journal articles, you've done written other books and workbooks, you also have day jobs. How have you managed to do this? You know, I sidebar I've been working on a book proposal on and off for a long time and just kind of can't get myself to get beyond that. So how do you make the time if that's something that you want to do alongside the clinical work that you're doing and everything else? Juliana, do you want to go first? Sure. Yeah. Well, I would say, I mean, the time. That's a great question. The time is never really there. But I think the thing that's most helpful is finding the right people to collaborate with. That it's so much easier if you have somebody that you enjoy working with. And I know that was something I think you and I talked about was how much like we just look forward to seeing each other every week. And so it becomes so much easier to get something done when you have the relationship at the foundation of it. So I would say that would be my main thing is to find the people that you collaborate best with and the people that you can see making that project happen with you. Yeah. I have to agree with that. I mean, I've worked on three books. And with all three of my workbooks, my relationships with the co-authors have been fabulous. I mean, I miss you now, Juliana. I really do. I miss seeing you all the time. And, in fact, when we got this invitation, I emailed Juliana, yay, an opportunity to work together. So, you know, it's something that when you look forward to and you respect and care about the person and their time, you also don't want to let go of deadlines. And at the same time, we care about each other enough and understand each other enough. Like if one of us was like, I just can't meet this deadline, the other one totally was understanding, respectful, and we'd do whatever we could to, you know, to get through that together. So I think that is a crucial piece. I love that. And I love that, you know, even if you're listening and you're thinking, well, I'm not planning on co-authoring something, it could be just having somebody to kind of hold you accountable. Maybe you're meeting up with someone who also has their own creative project going on and you can support each other in that. So I love that so much for the both of you. But if you're also, by the way, asking for how do you literally make time, I can give you an actual like something you can really use in the moment, which was when my kids were little and I was working on the first workbook, I would say that was the most chaotic time because you work. And then when you're not at work, the kids are your work in the house. And I literally, when I started writing my first workbook, said to my husband, every Sunday afternoon, you've got to take the kids to Chuck E. Cheese. And it just became a ritual. And he did it for like three hours. They ate lunch there. They played games there. It became a ritual of him being with the children, which, you know, they didn't get a ton of. It was just doing something they loved doing. It wasn't maybe my husband's favorite thing to do. But for me to be able to be in my home with quiet was what I needed. And I knew that. So we had to figure out a way to make that happen. And so we came up with that. And that was literally an entire year where they went to Chuck E. Cheese every Sunday and I wrote, worked on the book. As my kids are older, it was easier for me to find time that fit in my schedule. And then I would say you have to schedule it. Like if you're really like, how do I fit it in? I would say you put it in your schedule and you've got to give yourself, my suggestion is a three-hour chunk of time in your schedule. One day a week and you can get it done. Wow. Those are really super practical. Speaking the same thing. And concrete steps. Yeah. Yeah. But I also love that, you know, knowing that you are a therapist, what you are saying are these things that we ask our clients to do all the time. Identify your needs, ask for them, time block. And you are able still to put them into place and implement them to success. So, good for you. Great. Christina, will you take the next one? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, thinking about, too, that interplay between the writing and everything. Can you please explain to me in your book, first, what is RODBT for our listeners? Let me say that again, Dakota, sorry. Replay. Dakota's our producer. Because we're on that, what is RODBT, right? Okay, great. Fantastic. I started asking the other question and I was like, no, we've already covered that. Okay, thinking about the two of you and your clinical careers as well as your writing careers. First, can you explain for our listeners, what is RODBT? And then we'll get into a little bit of a how that applies to women leaders part of the question. Ellen, do you want to take this one? I was going to give that one to you. Oh, wow. Sure. I guess I can, I'll take it away if you'd like. I'm over-controlled. And that is, we'll talk about that. But so, RODBT is a treatment that was developed for people who are what we call over-controlled, have an over-controlled coping style. So, these tend to be people who are maybe more perfectionistic, make decisions based on rules rather than how they're feeling in the moment. So, they don't tend to be the people who are terribly impulsive or spontaneous but are more structured, goal-oriented and persistent. And some of the things that people might need help with are, you know, being more flexible, being able to express emotions openly, being able to act on how they're feeling rather than based on what should I do or what's the right thing to do in this moment. That's my little synopsis. Ellen, anything you would add to that? I think one thing I would add where, you know, and I often will talk about DBT just as the dialectic of radically open DBT, where DBT is, was really developed to help people with pervasive emotional dysregulation. Radically open DBT is to help people who suffer from emotional loneliness. So, the idea is when people lean towards more emotional over-control, and by the way, it's a bell curve. And so, it's only on the tail ends where it becomes problematic. And when people lean towards the over-controlled side of things. And I just lost my thought right in the middle of my thoughts. Just tell us a little bit about how that can lead to the loneliness. Being at the tail end of the bell curve, how that like excessive self-control, what does that have to do with loneliness? It's a great question. So, when someone has excessive self-control, they often will control and contain what occurs inside their body, meaning their thoughts, their feelings, their emotions. And they don't share them with other people. And the thing about that, because by the way, there are also people who are emotionally under-controlled who share too much of all of that with people. And when someone doesn't share very much, they end up having experiences like, I can feel totally alone in a room full of friends, or I can feel totally unlovable surrounded by people who say that they love me. And you might say, how does that happen? Well, if you can say to yourself, if they really knew what I thought, if they really knew what I felt, they wouldn't love me and they wouldn't be my friend, then you can feel alone in a room full of friends. And then what is the solution to that? To start sharing yourself with people. So, are you suggesting that they test their theory if they knew they wouldn't like me? Yes. Oh, yeah. With a trusted person, like one person who you really know, you know, like this person I can trust. Because basically, when you're not sharing yourself, what are you signaling to those people? And that's something really important from an RO perspective, right? When you don't share yourself, you're signaling I don't trust you with how I, what I think and what I feel. I don't trust you not to hurt me with this. You know, you might also be signaling by not sharing those things. I'm better than you. I don't have those trivial human experiences that you have, you know. And that, by the way, is not the intention of not sharing those things. It's just what gets communicated or signaled, which then ends up leading to that person who doesn't share those things feeling more alone. Because people, if they think that you don't trust them, or they think that you think you're better than them, aren't likely to like you very much. If that makes sense. It does very much so. I might combine and kind of shift the next couple of questions and kind of move more into women in leadership. So, you know, those of us in this room together right now, and many women in leadership have really admirable personality traits. And, you know, are resilient and persistent and can overcome, you know, all kinds of adversity. And do know how to self-regulate, even if they're internally really overwhelmed and, you know, have 10 different projects and life things going on at once. But I guess my question for you is, like, what are the assets to this over control for women in leadership? What do you see as being strengths? And then where do you see it kind of moving into an unhealthy territory for them? Like, what are some things they might want to look out for? Juliana, do you want this one? Sure. So, I guess the first thing that comes to mind is that, you know, I think there are more strengths than not to over control in leadership in that, you know, you can think, you know, it's essentially having high self-control and being able to, you know, put the needs of others sometimes before your own in a given moment. Being able to not share every thought or every impulse in the moment, to be discerning, to work toward long-term goals. So, I think there's a lot. I would say, you know, the key, though, is to always consider when those traits start to become rigid and no longer fit the context that you're in, then they can start to create problems. And I guess one thing that might be helpful for us to kind of talk about in this podcast as well is that there are two subtypes of over control that can show up, and the challenges that can arise with each one are a little bit different. So, there's the overly disagreeable subtype, which tends toward a stance of it's more important to be right than to be liked. So, this is someone who might be more willing to prove a point at the expense of a relationship. So, they're not so concerned with being disliked or ruffling feathers, but they always have to have the right answer. Mistakes are intolerable, never show weakness. Where, on the other hand, we have our overly… By the way, even if they know they're wrong. Yes. Even if they know they're wrong. Sorry, go ahead. That's okay. Dig their heels. Yes. On the other hand, too. So, they're not willing to even admit a mistake or apologizing might be hard. The other subtype is our overly agreeables, and these are the people for whom it's important to appear both competent, so that's important, but it's also important to be liked and to keep the peace. And so, this might be someone who has a hard time with conflict and approaching a situation where maybe delivering news or making a decision where they know they might be disliked could be really difficult. They won't have such a hard time with maybe apologizing or admitting a mistake. They might, in some ways, actually take on fault, even when they're aware the other person is wrong, and that can lead to resentment or frustration or a whole host of things. And so, as we can see, the places where leaders can get stuck can show up in different ways for each of these two subtypes. And it feels very much like women are asked to be one of these different subtypes or can get really stuck in an over-controlled type very easily when they are leaders. Yeah, that's an interesting piece, too, just the expectations that, depending on the culture that you're in, that women leaders might have to kind of just get along or to be the bad guy. So, that's interesting. As well as, I think, the pressure to not be vulnerable, to be more like their male counterparts. Right? So, I mean, one of the things we're certainly focusing on over-control in women in leadership. And, you know, I'm under-controlled, so I'm going to poke my little nose in it. I think it's important to recognize one's temperamental traits and recognize ways that we can use those traits productively, meaning helpfully as leaders, and ways we can use those traits destructively, meaning, you know, the opposite of productive. And all of us have the ability to do that with our traits, regardless of whether they're over-controlled traits or under-controlled traits. There are productive expressions and destructive expressions. So, you know, and I won't talk much about this, but one of my newest endeavors is creating a team-building and leadership program with Andrea Seinfeld, Dr. Andrea Seinfeld, and it's called The Power of Temperament. And it is based on the fact that human beings all have temperamental traits that are in us biologically, genetically, and how do we recognize the traits that we're using productively and use them more, and the traits that we use destructively, and figure out how to use them productively. So, like an example is, and you might think this is not a trait to think about in terms of destructive, but I have optimism as a trait, and my optimism is destructive. And this is also something interesting about the book that Juliana and I wrote, because one of the things we talk about is the difference between trait and state anxiety. And so, I, for example, have high reward and low threat sensitivity, but I have high anxiety because over the years, my optimism and my low threat sensitivity has led me to get bitten in the tushy, meaning I didn't see danger coming. And so, over the years and the decades, my anxiety has risen because I know I have low threat, if that makes sense. And so, when I'm talking about my optimistic trait used destructively, I tend to think things will work out. I tend to think things will go well and pay less attention to things that might come up and be problematic. And so, by recognizing that I use that trait destructively, I have to be more aware of that and shift my expression of my optimism in more productive ways. Meaning, yes, it can still be there, and I need to have a little caution with it. Ellen, this is so interesting. I just got out of a client in which we had a similar conversation. His justice orientation or his belief in a just world causes him at times to underestimate risk, and that's really bad for him and his business. So, like personally and professionally, but what would you teach women in this instance? What kind of skills would you teach women and or men, of course, human beings from your workbook that would help them kind of correct for this? I mean, here's the thing. It's not so much as correct for this. The first thing you have to have is insight, right? You have to understand who you are. And so, like when you look at our book, the whole first part of the book is figuring it out. Do I lean towards over control or do I lean towards under control? So, because frankly, depending on which way I lean and how that might be expressed, I'm going to need to lean on different things to help me through that. Right. And so, first, the book is like recognizing that I lean towards over control. And so, because of that, I might have higher threat sensitivity. I might have lower reward sensitivity. Because of that, I might not be as vulnerable with people and share as much with people. So, when I start feeling nervous about something, instead of talking to my loved ones, I retreat and isolate. And then I start spinning more. Now, I forgot what was the question that I was answering. RODBT skills that don't help to correct this, but it adjusts. Yes. Okay. Sorry. So, I would also say self-inquiry. That's probably one of the most important ones. And that's learning what can I learn about me in order to grow when I want to blame everybody else. And then, and this one might surprise some of my RO colleagues, very close colleagues, because I don't think it takes such a big role when we teach RO, but I think it's crucial. Learning the difference between healthy self-doubt and unhealthy self-doubt. And I think for women leaders, so much more important. Like it should be up there as number one, because here's the deal. Part of growing, learning, growing, getting better at what you care about is being able to take in feedback. Because feedback is how we learn and grow. But when people lean towards over control, and honestly, all human beings, to some degree, when we receive feedback, it can be like, wait, I'm not good enough. So, if someone's a perfectionist and they receive feedback, it's like, wait, I'm not appearing perfect enough. I'm not striving for perfection enough. This is critical. This is painful. And then spin off into, I'm a horrible human being. I'm terrible. I'm a piece of poo. And all of that is called unhealthy self-doubt. That prevents learning and growing and keeps us stuck. And healthy self-doubt enables us to go, oh, I hate hearing about that, or thinking that I do that, or oh, that's not how I want to look at myself. And if I look at it, then I have the ability to not let it control me. I have the ability, in fact, I describe it as empowering healthy self-doubt, because I have the ability to change if I choose. And I think there is some vulnerability in healthy self-doubt that, wait, I should beat myself up if I'm not perfect, as opposed to, of course, I'm not perfect. And so healthy self-doubt is going to help me take what I don't know, because I don't know what I don't know, and then help me get to being better. And I'm not even going to say to where I want to go, because the reality is, hopefully, I just turned 60. Hopefully, I'm growing for the rest of my life. I don't ever want to stop becoming better and more in line with who I want to be and what my values are. I love that, and amen. My next question, maybe, Juliana, you could take this one, is about, you know, women leaders who might be in a supervisory capacity or, you know, I know you mentioned you're in a director position, so I imagine you've had to kind of navigate this yourself or in other teams that you've worked with, but how do you kind of ascertain how much personal information to share with the people that might work under you? You know, I think in the past, I've worked alongside people who we were friends outside of work, and then maybe they got a promotion, and then all of a sudden, they're kind of a little bit more at arm's length. Maybe I don't, maybe they're more distant, because there's an idea that, you know, once you kind of get promoted, you've got to be more distant from those beneath you. So I guess my, I guess to, yeah, just curious, how do you figure out, like, how vulnerable to be and not feel like you're losing authority or credibility in that process? Yeah, that's a great question, and I guess one thing that I would think about is, like, separating respect and authority from connection, and that, you know, I think part of it is, one, like, how can we balance maintaining, you know, our authority role, our leadership role, and to what extent is connection helpful for that relationship? So I think some, one thing that is important is figuring, like, making sure that I have my people outside of those work relationships where I can be vulnerable with and transparent. So knowing, you know, supervision, meeting with a supervisee is not the place where you're going to be sharing your deepest, darkest secrets or, you know, sharing, you know, all of your work stress. So making sure that you have your people where you can do that with, and I find, I know, in one of my RO trainings, Dr. Lynch talks about being sort of the airplane captain, and I think about that a lot as sort of guiding how much do I disclose, because if, you know, the captain is coming back and saying, you know, we have some turbulence going on, I don't know what's going to happen. I have no idea where we're going. I don't know if we're going to make it. That is not going to really put your passengers at ease. And at the same time, if the plane is, like, rocking around, you're clearly in turbulence, and the captain is like, everything's fine, just ignore it, I don't, I'm not aware of any issues, that's not going to instill a lot of trust either. And so I think you have to find that balance between remaining in control, instilling trust, and being able to give enough vulnerability that you remain connected and that you can build that trust. So, for example, being able to say, you know, I'm feeling, I'm not totally sure about this, this is what I believe is the best thing to do right now, and I'm remaining open to feedback. So I think it's important to have some boundaries and some humility. Recognizing that being in a leadership role doesn't mean that you have to have all the answers, and in fact, admitting when you don't actually can make you more trustworthy. And I think being able to make sure that you have your people that you can be vulnerable with is a big priority. Oh, absolutely, and the visual of the airplane pilot, I could see Dr. Lynch giving that example, and that's a really helpful one. And you take a second and just tell me who Dr. Lynch is, because I don't know who you guys are referring to. Great, elusive, yes, he, Thomas Lynch is the developer of RODBT. Ah, okay, thank you, very helpful. Ellen, would you add anything to that? That was a wonderful answer. Yeah, I'm going to let Juliana's answer sit on its own. Yeah, sounds good. Christina, anything else that we'd want to ask? I feel like we kind of hit on a lot of them. I do, I feel like we hit all of our points. I guess, other than our traditional last question, which I will let you ask, Abby, because you do such a beautiful job with that one. But there are bits of questions that we had intended to ask you that I'm still kind of ruminating over. And so, like, I'm stuck on this whole vulnerability kind of thing and how over-controlled women can tend to be less vulnerable. And I'm wondering how you approach a woman or a woman leader or somebody who wants to be a leader, when they start to feel like their lack of vulnerability has really gotten in their way. Like, maybe even they're successful, but they've reached that success without a level of flexibility or understanding by others. Maybe they are misunderstood. Maybe they're missing some connection. How do you help them? What would you say to them or what would you encourage them to ask themselves? Oh, I love that, Christina. Well, I mean, you wrote most of the questions. This is just a combination of many of them. I mean, yeah, sure. I think one of the first questions I would recommend is, are you open to feedback? And what if they're not? What if they're not? Then I wouldn't give it because it's irrelevant. I mean, it's one of those things where, and that's, you know, not to bring that up again, but why I'm working on developing this leadership, team building. Oh, bring it up. We're here to, like, elevate, promote all the things. Maybe Andrew and I can come back. But it's actually to help people understand what, you know, so here's the deal. If someone is an emotionally over-controlled leader and vulnerability does not come naturally anyway, and it's not been very problematic in other areas of their lives, very likely, somehow, depending on, you know, on a scale of how severe it is, at some point, it's probably going to show up in lack of connection with her, with the people that she works with. And so, like you said, if they're seeking help with that, if they recognize that, then the question is, are you open to feedback about it? Are you really, and I do mean this, are you really looking for help with this? Because the reality is, the C-suite, you know, the top, top leaders of large organizations, almost never get feedback about their social signaling, about the way that they unintentionally or intentionally communicate to others. I once had a leader who would pat people on the head. And I cannot tell you, behind the scenes, everybody was appalled. But nobody ever gave feedback about it. So it's one of those things where the first thing I would say is, are you open to feedback? Because it is the only way change will happen, right? And then it's looking for, you know, kind of this is the path I would take. What is your value or your goals? What do you want to signal to people about your openness, about your willingness to hear their perspective, about, you know, any of that? You know, and then the work begins. Yeah, Juliana, do you have any insights into this too? I mean, I would say, I think one thing that I would consider is, you know, vulnerability doesn't necessarily mean sharing an emotion. It could be asking for help. It could be delegating a task. And one thing that I think is important is that oftentimes, like, you know, before an emotion like resentment or burnout or exhaustion or frustration even shows up, there are likely patterns of rigidity. And so even beyond just vulnerability, in RODBT, we want to think about flexibility. And Ellen introduced the skill of self-inquiry, which is essentially noticing, like, when we're having discomfort, rather than automatically assuming something is wrong, of considering, okay, what can I learn from this discomfort? And perhaps what is my role in this discomfort? And considering, okay, is some of my exhaustion coming from the fact that I am assuming that if I don't do it myself, it won't get done at all, or that everything has to be done a certain way, or that I'm not comfortable asking for help, because what would that say about me if I was a leader? And so I think sort of starting with that self-inquiry piece can be a really great place to start. And then it also, you know, not that I – feedback is a very important part of RO, but sometimes we don't have to give the feedback if the client can start to discover that on their own and lean into some of those painful questions of what is my role in this situation? It seems like a really powerful set of questions. Thank you. Thank you so much. And then I will probably move into our last question, and I'm hoping that, you know, we focused a lot on RODBT, but the both of you have, you know, just a breadth and depth of experience personally and professionally. So feel free to bring anything you want into this question. But is there anything that we didn't ask you today that you think would be important for our listeners to know? It can be a little bit of knowledge, a tidbit, a gem, something you've learned in your years on this earth that you would like to share with our listeners. It can be anything. It could be something silly, anything at all. Juliana, you want to go first? I'm thinking. There's so much pressure. I'm like, gosh. Well, and I can always ask another one as well. Is there anything from RODBT or any of the clinical work that you've done that has been a game changer for you as women in leadership? So, you know, I heard you talking about healthy self-doubt, for example. Is there any skill or any concepts that has just changed the way you think or behave and engage with yourself and others in the world? Did that make it more complicated? I can take it from here, I think. So I would say, I mean, one thing that came to mind as you were talking about this was that RODBT was, I think, one of the first modalities that really introduced me to the role of biotemperament in therapy, in work, just in life, the impact that that has. With biotemperament essentially being the biological basis for how we perceive the world and how we regulate our emotions. So do we tend to be more detail-focused, more risk-averse, or more reward-focused? Do we tend to be more inhibited or disinhibited? And so that has shaped not only kind of being able to be curious about my own perceptions and how my temperament shapes my interpretations of things, how I'm responding to things, but also with just conceptualizing clients through a biopsychosocial lens of understanding that, you know, one, two people can be in the same environment and experience that environment in very different ways because of their temperament. And their temperament can also draw out different experiences from their environment. And so I think that thinking through that lens and understanding the importance of our biotemperament and the power of that has been so helpful, not just for my clinical work, but also just in life and understanding how I engage, being able to be more curious about how people in my life respond and not necessarily judging. It makes me much less judgmental, too, to understand those differences in terms of, you know, is this person wrong or are they just experiencing the world in a different way than me? Did they see something that maybe I missed or am I seeing something that they're missing because of their, just their brains? So I think that's my thought. It could be that way and think in that way. The world would be very different. Thank you, Juliana. How about you, Ellen? I would say there are several things that come to mind, not necessarily RO focused. One thing that always pops into my head is, you know, one of the first things my father taught me when I was going into the field. He was a psychiatrist. And so I was around therapy and all of that my whole life. And he said, honey, if you're going into the field, you need to know two rules. They're actually kind of laws. And I was like, okay. He said, to survive in this field, you need these laws or rules. Rule number one is JC negative. In other words, you are not Jesus Christ. You cannot fix everything. And rule number two is you cannot change rule number one. And that was really important to me because as a leader, as a healer, as a mother, you can't fix it all. You can't. And if you try, you're going to end up in trouble. Another thing that occurs to me is that learning about ourselves as well as those that we love and being able to embrace our differences enables us to have a whole different level of compassion and relationships that I think can heal. Because, you know, it is one of those things where I can recognize, for example, my mother is over-controlled and I'm under-controlled. And so when we're together, we see different things, we focus on different things, and we love each other more than you could possibly imagine. And without understanding how our temperament has impacted that would lead to conflict and belief that I was really incompetent or belief that my mother was really mean. And once we understood the temperamental differences, it enabled us to have so much more compassion for all of that. And also, one last thing, if you ever run into a clinician who believes their way is the best way for everybody, run. In the opposite direction. We are way too complex for that. That's powerful gems of wisdom. Thank you so much, ladies. I also have been really enjoying just the emotional tenor of this insight. You guys approach things so gently, and I've enjoyed just the flow. This was so great. Thank you both for being here. We will make sure that we have, I'll reach out to the both of you to get any like social media accounts, links to the book. We can put all of that in the show notes. And we have some swag that we'll get to you at some point. And then at some point, we'll probably do, we actually had a gathering with some of our, I guess we're in our 2nd season. But at first gathering in Andersonville. So we'd love to have you for a meal, just to gather with other guests and network and stuff like that. So, and then Christina and I are meeting tomorrow to kind of powwow and talk about future endeavors with the podcast. So we'll keep you posted. I'm going to reach out to you separately because I'm trying to write a protocol for women in leadership. And I think that part of this is peer groups. We'll, we'll talk later. Yeah, we will talk. I just had something that I wanted to say to the both of them, but I forget it now. So I'll remember it later and put it in an email. Okay. Thank you so much. And we'll let you know when it will be released. So good. Thank you so much for having us. Love to talk to you. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.