Episode 5 Draft 2

Dulce Vasquez is a community leader, activist, and Assistant VP at ASU. She champions various social issues and shares her journey from being undocumented to her current success. Dulce discusses her career growth through seizing opportunities and open communication with supervisors. She emphasizes the importance of asking for support and not settling for less. Facing challenges of assimilation and lack of guidance, she highlights the need for inclusivity and adaptation. Her experiences shape her advocacy for underrepresented groups. Welcome to Trailblazers and Coffee, your podcast for elevating women in leadership, with your host, Dr. Christina Zaccora and Dr. Abby Brown. Dulce Vasquez is an activist and community leader. She's the Assistant Vice President for Arizona State University's Los Angeles office, where she builds partnerships across business, government, and community to connect people with the university's mission of access and impact. Born in Mexico and raised across the U.S., Dulce spent part of her childhood undocumented before going to study at Northwestern. Oh, and Paris, and UCLA's Luskin School of Public Affairs. She's also run for both Los Angeles City Council and California State Assembly, championing issues like housing, public transportation, small businesses, and LGBTQ plus rights. Today, she lives in South Los Angeles with her spouse and her Rottweiler. And when she's not working, she loves running, snowboarding, and traveling. And again, welcome, Dulce. It's so good to have you here with us. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. Champion. What's the weather like in Los Angeles today? Oh, well, it's like 90 degrees today. So I know you're going to ask me about my blazer, but I'm not wearing a blazer at 90 degrees. No. Fair enough. Fair enough. So if we use blazers as kind of a gauge for mood, then what would you be wearing today if you were to put on a blazer? Well, I think it's exactly what I'm wearing right now, which is like I'm wearing a yellow dress with some Mexican embroidery on it. So it's like very bold, but I am so comfortable. And I usually like wear really bright, bold blazers. Like I have a pink, green, yellow, red, two purple ones, because obviously Northwestern. But it's always like really bold. Like, look at me. I'm here. I'm ready to take on the world. But also, like, I always give a nod to like my cultural roots. I love that. Oh, that's fantastic. It's such good energy to bring to the pod. Thank you. Christina, what's your blazer mood today? My blazer mood today, I'm also not wearing a blazer, although it's a lovely, like, 75 here in Chicago. The humidity has finally broken, thank God. So I think, though, what I would be wearing is one of my summer blazers, which is like black and linen, and it has these wonderful embroidered cranes on it. Just kind of a nod to, again, like I'm an interesting person who might have a lot to talk about today, I guess. How about you, Abby? I'm deviating from, like, the blazer situation. I just recently bought at a consignment shop a vegan leather shirt jacket, like a shacket. And I'm very much looking forward to the fall so that I can incorporate that into my wardrobe. So, yeah, not so much a blazer, more of a shacket mood today. That's the first time I've heard that term, shacket. That's great. Oh, my God. I have some great shackets. Oh, yeah. So let's also move into the other part of our check-in. What's in your cup? So tell us, Dulce, what's in your cup today? I'm almost always drinking coffee. Morning, coffee in the afternoon. I need a little treat. It's going to be coffee. I recently switched to mushroom coffee and decaf coffee. So a couple years ago, I was diagnosed with ADHD. And apparently, for ADHDers, a lot of us, caffeine actually calms you down. So I was like, well, if it's having this effect on me, why am I drinking so much of it? So I decided to, in the morning, switch to a mushroom coffee. And then if I'm out and about, it's sort of like a coffee shop. I drink decaf now. But, yeah, I run on coffee. How about you, Robbie? Iced coffee with a caramel flavor. So because I'm going to a Cubs game tonight with my co-host, Christina, and I don't typically go out and do events, you know, at 7.20 p.m. So I need a little pick-me-up. How about you, Christina? Yeah, definitely. I will be caffeinating later. Right now, I have, very sadly, some Noon, N-U-U-N, sponsorship desired, please, in my cup as I try to rehydrate. It's been a very challenging couple of weeks to marathon train here in Chicago. And I am constantly aware of my hydration levels. So that's what's in my cup today. Oh, my God. That's like, what, eight weeks? No, it's 20 weeks. Oh, you mean eight weeks until the marathon? Yes. Yes? Are you running? No, but my run club leader is running it. And he posted this morning about it being eight weeks away. I'm running Mexico City next week. Oh, fabulous. I hear such good things. Are you feeling prepared? Not at all. No, I spent a lot of the summer really sick. And I think you can still kind of hear it a little bit in my voice. But, you know, it's okay. It's just going to be fun. And I will finish eventually. Yes. Yes. Is this your first marathon? Is it a number for you? This is number four. Oh, exciting. Oh, my gosh. You're going to have to tell us later about how it's going for you. What I'm really excited about is this medal. It's like this, like, beautiful, like, Aztec, and it's, like, massive. I'm really excited about it. I'm not usually, like, I'm not a medal displayer. Sure. So, like, this one I'm, like, really pumped for. That's fantastic. Yes. I'm sure that Dulce and I could bore everyone with our marathon talk. So we'll skip onto that and make that a personal conversation. But, Dulce, you were recommended to us by our previous podcast, Rachel Allison. I think she's a mutual friend of ours. And she recommended you because she was, like, this is one of the most fabulous people I know, and she's so accomplished. And so when we were looking into you, you are super impressive. Can you tell us? You're welcome. You're welcome. Can you tell us how you got to such a high level in your career at such a young age? Honestly, like, you know, looking back, you know, it was just, like, one foot in front of the other. I think it wasn't a quick thing. It was just saying yes to opportunities and being ready when the moment strikes. You know, like, I was at a nonprofit, and the number two left, and I was all of, like, 22, 23 at the time. And I was like, well, I can take on some of those responsibilities. Like, let me come in and save the day, right? Or I'd say what's really helped me in the last couple of years is very open communication about where I want to be in my career and checking in with my supervisors. And it's also, like, having the right type of supervisor, right, that's willing to work with you and is not intimidated by your ambition. And being able to work with, like, saying, hey, like, in a couple years, like, you know, I want to be here. What do I need? And they're like, okay, like, you need a master's degree. Let us help you, you know, support you in working for us and getting a master's degree. Or it's like, hey, like, I want to run for office. And it's like, okay, well, like, we will stand by you as you go through that journey. And then coming back from running for office, it's like, hey, I had all of these, like, great relationships that I've built. I'm bringing so much value back to my job, like, and I use this, you know, as a promotion, you know, as a stepping stone to take on more responsibility and bring this experience back to this role. So it's about having great relationships, not being afraid to ask. I think a lot of women are afraid to ask. And also just, like, part of it is not settling, right? It's saying, like, okay, I'm here, but, like, how do I get to the next role? Yeah, the two pieces that I took from that, among many, is that you were given an opportunity and you didn't hesitate, just kind of jumped right in. And the other one that I love is just, if you know it, owning what you see for your future, like, and communicating that to your supervisors so they can help you get there. So I think that is something that's a little taboo, like, maybe I need to kind of keep this, my long-term professional goals quiet, maybe people will second guess that, and just putting that out there. So I think that's a really great lesson. So kind of moving forward, we know that, you know, women struggle to attain and be respected as leaders, but it sounds like your road has been particularly challenging in a very certain way. Could you tell us about the challenges you overcame to get where you are today? I can. I could probably go through, spend a lot of time on this. But, you know, from the time that I came to the U.S., right, I was 7 years old. I didn't speak any English. I had to assimilate to a different culture. I think I spent a lot of my, you know, teenage years and 20s, right, sort of trying to fit in. It taught me to be very aware, you know, pick up on little things, be very resourceful, be able to adapt. I had to fight for inclusion, right, feeling like I belong when I don't look like a lot of people that are around me. Then getting to such places like Northwestern, and I love Northwestern, right, but there aren't a lot of low-income kids at Northwestern. And then sort of being friends with folks who grew up very, very different than me, I think those were a lot of challenges. And then getting into the job market for someone that has my type of background is really difficult because our experiences, you know, my parents are manual laborers, my dad's in construction, my mom cleans houses. There was no one that I could turn to, to be like, okay, like, what kind of jobs should I be looking at? What kind of jobs am I qualified for? I have no one to make phone calls on my behalf. I have no one, you know, I took an internship in college at a nonprofit. I thought nonprofits meant that, like, you didn't make any money, like, they were all just volunteer positions, right? It was really tiny things that, like, people normally just don't even think about, right? And for me, it was just like a really, really big, like, learning curve that I had to catch up to my peers. So would you say those experiences informed how you advocate as a leader? Oh, absolutely. You know, the first thing that I did graduating from college was seek out high school women, high school girls who were applying to colleges, right? Because we think, you know, I got a full ride to Northwestern, and I think that price tag often dissuades a lot of applicants that come from my background because they're like, there's no way my parents could ever afford this. Like, you know, we were paying three times, or no, we weren't paying, but like Northwestern costs two to three times my parents' annual salary, right? So I think it dissuades a lot of really talented people from even filling out that application. But understanding, like, oh, my God, there's academic scholarships, there's need-based scholarships, there's grants, there's all of this different stuff. So, like, the first thing I did was reach back and be like, okay, how do we get you to something, you know, something that is more stable than a community college, right? Which is for a lot of women that I was interacting with were like, oh, I'm just going to go to community college because it's cheap. And then you get lost in a system that takes you, you know, off on a different path. Right. So your advocacy starts, like, you're trying to intervene, help young people as early as possible to have or at least consider a different path. Right. Okay. And so you also ran for public office twice, which is absolutely incredible, takes so much courage, I'm sure. I imagine that it to be such a unique experience. We're both really curious what was, you know, what was surprising about it? What did you learn during those campaigns? Anything that was surprising to you? Both experiences. I just, I kind of clumped them into one because I ran one right after the other. But I think that four-year span completely changed me. Like, literally everything about my life in terms of relationships, in terms of purpose, in terms of how someone like me wants to shape the world, legacy, you know, resilience. I think what surprised me is how vulnerable it made me. And, you know, you hear these stories all the time about women running for office, right? Like, women, you know, you fear for your safety, you fear for backlash, you fear for, you know, whatever. And I went through literally every scenario that women fear of running for office. I went through it from talking to the police stalker unit to having protesters outside of my house to, like, you know, being doxed online. Like, I went through all of it. But it really just, like, it deeply shaped me and how I view the world. And I would do it again. And I often, you know, I have phone calls all the time. I work with Run for Something, a large organization encouraging people under 30 to run, started by a Northwestern grad. I had a phone call yesterday, right, encouraging someone in Texas on how do you start? Like, who should you talk to? What do you do? Right? Definitely encourage people to run for office. Even with all of the things that I've gone through, there's been so many gratifying moments in that as well. It's so triggering, I guess, for me, or upsetting at least, to hear about how you have to confront fear to be a public servant. Can you talk more about that and why you would do it again? Yeah. I think that's just kind of the world that we live in right now. I'm no martyr by any means, but I genuinely, like, think that my skill set and the ways that I view the world, you know, all shaped by my life experiences and my family and the things that I've gone through, the places I've visited. You know, I have thoughts on how we could create a better world. You know, I think political violence has existed for millennia. I think women running for office is a relatively new thing in the last 50, 60 years. I can't do the math. But, you know, I think about, I just, Gabby Giffords is coming to Los Angeles in two weeks, and I'm going to go to her event. I think about her shooting, you know, outside of a supermarket. I think about the woman, Melissa Blankner, her last name, in Minnesota a couple months ago that was shot in her home. I think about Nancy Pelosi's husband being attacked in his home. You know, I don't want to normalize that this is what politics is like. It's just a reality, right? And as women, you know, that is a double reality, right, of, like, you're going to events, you're alone, you're knocking on someone's door, right? Like, there are just so many places. But I think that people who have that gumption, right, that, like, you truly believe you're going to make a difference and you know that you're doing it with art and purpose, that is, you kind of just, that is always a possibility. But it's also, you know, it's also a possibility that I could just, you know, grab a loose bullet on the street corner. That is not intended for me, right? I just, I think about the world is just a dangerous place, and you do your best. Do you have tips and tricks for women who are out there trying to do their best, but specifically those who are considering running for public office, how to combat that fear? Never be alone. Never be alone. Always knock on doors with someone else. I'd say, you know, in terms of sort of a digital footprint, make sure that you Google yourselves and any place that you can control where your address is posted. Make sure you do that. I talked to the LAPD stalker unit who taught me how to blur my household from Apple and Google Maps and stuff, which, like, you know, it doesn't do a lot, but, you know, it's those little things. Yeah. Anything that provides security. I'm sure it's kind of the same assessment that you take whenever you go out for a run by yourself, right? Like, people don't understand the kinds of considerations that we as women have to take just to do the simple things in life, let alone run for public office. Oh, yeah. Never, never at night. If it's at night, it's with our own club. You know, it's you're running in apps that are populated. Yeah, absolutely. Definitely. Definitely. I mean, in terms of particular challenges that you have faced, how have these helped you in your day to day life? Like, your job is to form partnerships with people. Right. So how do you use your challenges and how you overcome those in your work or in your personal life? I don't know. I think they just give me a different viewpoint. I think facing some of those challenges and being thoughtful, creative, resourceful. Right. I go and approach a partnership and it's like that thing has nothing to do with our thing. Right. But let's talk more and let's figure out an entry point. Right. And it may not be the most obvious thing, but being able to just like have that resourcefulness, I think, is really helpful in my job and in my career, too. Yeah. I imagine that resourcefulness is especially helpful right now, given you're working on a university campus. I think we'd really like to hear what it's been like for you, just given how kind of targeted universities are right now in terms of funding. And we've been seeing lots of cuts, especially here at Northwestern. I don't know if you heard about that. Several hundred people were recently laid off. So just curious what it's like right now on the university campus. Yeah. So I do all of this partnership activity in California. So I am not typically like on our main campus. We do operate two buildings here, but it's sort of it feels like an outpost, not a campus itself. So I have to put that asterisk in there. But I think just in higher ed in general. And particularly right now, right, we're trying to balance tradition. I think a lot of faculty are very tradition oriented, sort of hard to pivot or change. But ASU is just it's such an innovative place. Our president has been here for 23 years. You know, just created so much change around the university, literally like relocating units. Right. So that they could interact with each other differently. Renaming schools and then sort of putting people in other people's paths to increase collaboration. I think sometimes that type of change is really slow and it takes and it takes a culture change to happen. I think what's happening right now, you know, we're just riding it, seeing seeing what happens. But I can assure you, like most universities are going to be around way past this administration. It's just a big sea change that you're going to have to navigate. And I'm sure in the hundred and fifty years of this university and of Northwestern's existence, there have been other times where stuff like this has been threatened. And at the end of the day, I think that universities are going to persist because you also need them as an economic driver. You know, I think the current administration is positioning this as like highfalutin sort of elitist thing. Right. But we're also doing research and innovation on wastewater treatment, on, you know, sort of space and exploration. We're doing stuff on, you know, heat resistance. If you don't want to call it climate change, let's call it heat resistance. Right. Because the truth of the matter is that Phoenix is one hundred and eighteen degrees. Right. And soon enough, a lot more of our population is going to be moving into those higher temperatures, too. So all of these universities are creating research of impact, research of change. And that's going to outlast a lot of the stuff that's happening. A lot of adapting. Yeah. I wanted to go back really quickly to just hear more about something that you said early on. You talked about intimidation by ambition and trying to make sure that people weren't intimidated by your ambition. How have you done that? I find that women leaders find that in particular really challenging. And I just want to hear how you have kind of carved out a space to solve that problem. If you feel like you have. I don't think I've solved it at all. I think I've been really blessed. You know, I've been at this current role for almost 10 years and I work for the president and the chief of staff. Right. Like I'm never going to. Not never. But like I'm I'm never going to be the president of a university. And I don't think that's in my. I don't think that's in my future. Right. But, you know, I think I work for people who see the value of human capital and the value of having. The employees that feel like they're thriving and have enough support to to do their best, have the, you know, have the support both morally, but also like in terms of tools. Right. To do the things that will benefit you and benefit. The organization. Right. And also benefit the employee. So I've been really, really blessed that I don't worry about sort of how my ambition will will impact them. I do worry how my ambition impacts colleagues. Right. I'm very attuned to like sensitivities because I'm often, you know, it's it's it's changing now that I'm getting older. But like when I first started, I was often the youngest person in the room, the only woman in the room, the only person of color in the room. Right. So as as I'm like moving on up, everyone's like, who is this chick? Right. Like, who do you think you are? So I think, you know, you have to you have to manage. Other other people around you, too. And I think that's obviously very difficult to I think when it comes to running for office. Right. I am not someone who works in politics. I am not someone who was a staffer, not someone who like worked in elected office. So me coming out of left field, working in education and being like, I'm going to run for city council. Thirty five, which is not young. Everyone's like, who is who does she think she is that she thinks she can do this? Right. And then it was and it was labeled as ambition. Right. She just wants to be an elected official. It's like who in their right mind wants to make less money and work twice as hard? Right. But, you know, you you're like, OK, like I'm just I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing. Yeah. To show them, show them that you can do it and that you have the credibility to do it right. You have the credit, but also the integrity. It does sound like managing others sensitivities is a particular strength of yours. I am. I am probably ADHD, like autistic ADHD. So like very attuned to like energy and like very small movements and in people. Yeah. Yeah. Who helped you discover this about yourself or who or what, I guess, in your life helped you discover that? I talk. You're kidding. I'm not. I'm not. I kept getting these ads like, oh, do you do this? Like, do you, you know, procrastinate? Like they were pushing some sort of, you know, medication. Right. Like not traditional medication, but they were pushing some sort of, you know, supplement or whatever. But I was just like, yeah, like that's me. And I kept like going back to it. And then my algorithm changed and then I kept getting a lot of. Content from either psychologists, psychiatrists or like ADHD content creators. Right. About specific, you know, very specific things. I'm like, I thought that was my quirk. And it turns out like like my whole personality, which I thought was just quirky, was like these very specific ADHD or ADHD traits. And finally, after the campaign, the first campaign, I had a really hard time sort of readjusting. And it turns out that like ADHD years, unless you have like a very like we thrive and some of us thrive in school because it's like very regimented. Right. You have the things that you're doing. And now sort of like after a campaign where I was like very scheduled from like 7 a.m. to 11 p.m. at night. I'm in chaos. So I sought professional help. And that's when I got diagnosed. And, you know, I've been on and off on medication trying to figure out, you know, what is helpful. But, yeah, it's old. In old age, I found out. And then this happens a lot to women. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Definitely. I certainly have. I'm sure, Abby, you have had a bunch of people come lately through similar circumstances, actually, and being mindful of different mental health things because of things like TikTok. Yeah, it's a crazy world we live in these days. I'm glad that you found your thing. Do you feel like it's helping you? Absolutely. It's nothing else than like putting a name to it and being kinder to myself. These things that I considered flaws for my entire life, right, where I would procrastinate. Right. Or leave things to the very last minute so I could get that rush of dopamine and urgency. Or, you know, I'm not a morning person, like really like a very fatigued morning person. It's just like part of, you know, I'm always like, why can't I just like get up at six in the morning and work out? Right. Well, some of us are not built that way. And I'm just being kinder to myself instead of feeling like a failure or feeling like, you know, it's just I can't do something. So they'll say we ask these two questions to everybody at the end and it's OK. You may or may not have answers to all of them, but, you know, some people don't don't always answer the second one. Totally fine. But what advice do you have for women who might be seeking leadership roles during this challenging time in our country? Yeah. I mean, I think I think it goes two ways. And I think the first one, I think I hear it a lot and I think women need to hear it a lot, too. So I'm just going to repeat it. This is not original. But like, don't wait till you feel like you fit the job description that's put out for you. Right. Like if you're not 100 percent ready, it does not matter because there is some white Chad who thinks he is all that. And he has half the talent that you do and is applying for that job, that promotion, that job, that, you know, whatever it is like. Say yes. Even if you're scared, the things that you feel like you probably, like, don't know, you're just going to learn on the job. You're going to figure it out and you're going to ask your kitchen cabinet for help or advice or, you know, ask Chad GPT. Like you will figure it out and. Have your nicer office and nicer salary to make you feel better about it. Again, don't hesitate. Just get in there. Get in there. Get in there. Yeah. Yeah. So that was that was the second part. You know, since you mentioned like in this time, we need a lot. We need a lot more eyeballs and a lot more people that are vocal. Right. It doesn't matter that you're not in politics like you need to say that this is wrong. This is, you know, not representative of your values. This is like whether it's at dinner tables, whether that's on panels, on podcasts, at your school board meetings with your girlfriends. Right. Like this is not the time to be like, oh, well, like we don't really talk about politics because like I think they voted for the other guy. Like, no, like there are things that are happening in our country, in our democracy, that this is not the time to be silent about any of this stuff. There are literally people being snatched off the streets of Los Angeles by unmarked vans, like literally like they rent a Penske van to like shove people in it. This is, you know, if you have any remote history lessons of what happened in 1940s Germany and Poland, like this is it. Like people being just taken off the street. So like. Not not the time to be quiet. We have a massive election that will decide the House next year. So get involved. You can literally make buttons, make phone calls. You can. There are so many ways to be involved. And there are so many people running for things that you don't even think about. Right. There's school boards, there's water boards, there's, you know, commissions on this and commissions on, you know, whatever. There's, you know, justices of the peace. Right there. You know, in some places you elect your judges, which I think it's like the most asinine thing ever. Like that's really where you should be qualified. But no, people could just get elected to be a judge. So get get involved and engage, pay attention, be vocal. These are these are really great recommendations. The other question that we have is what question did you know you want to be asked that maybe we didn't ask you today or anything that you'd like to say that you didn't get a chance to say? I don't know. I feel like the conversation went a little like sad and negative, you know, talking about stalkers and, you know, violence and running for office. So maybe like, you know, what brings me joy? How do I get through all of this? Yes. Well, you know, there is one that I missed asking because I felt like we started with the marathon. But you not only run for public office, but you're a runner, like you said, you're a small traveler. I'm sure that you bring some of these passions into how you lead. And so, like, what parts of your life do bring you joy and how do you bring that into your leadership? Well, I feel like. I feel like running. It's kind of like a metaphor for life, like. And I never like I never want to do it, but like you push yourself to go out there and, you know, depending on your run, sometimes you're absolutely miserable and sometimes, oh, my God, like the weather is so nice. And at the end of the run, I never regret having done it. So I think it's like very much like leadership and life and adulting is a metaphor for it. I think, you know, it's only a wintertime sport. But like when I go snowboarding, that's a lot more joyful for me. Right. Because I am I'm on vacation. I'm not working like I just put on some music and just sort of cruise and like listen to the swish of the snow under my feet. And, you know, sort of just like feel the air on my face. Right. Like that's that's a lot more joyful. It sounds almost meditative. It is. Yeah, it is. People don't believe me, too, because they're like, aren't you afraid of dying? I'm like, you know, but like you sort of put that aside and enjoy. You seem to just really put yourself into all of your experiences, personal and professional, and that that does bring you a lot of joy. I think we have a lot to learn from that. So thank you. Definitely. I would I don't like to contradict guests, but I would definitely contradict. I think your struggles are a huge part of what makes you an inspirational person and why people would want to listen to you. So thank you so much for sharing that with us today. How can we, in turn, help you or share you in different ways, share things that you are passionate about, maybe like run for something? How can we promote what you're working on right now? Tell us and then we'll put everything in our show notes. Yeah. So I'm, you know, a please follow me. I'm on Instagram and TikTok at Vasquez, V-A-S-Q-U-E-Z who will say D-U-L-C-E. Please follow me on those two. I am sort of at this point where, like, you know. I do create content. Sometimes it's about running. Sometimes it's about just sort of life. Sometimes it's political. I'm still sort of very plugged in. I was very involved with the campaign last year as a content creator and just figuring out how I want to steer that part of my advocacy and my life because it is very time consuming. But it does provide me with a very creative outlet for my energy. So I'd say that that's probably the best way. You know, I was recently on Radio Abundance, which is sort of a podcast that came out of the YIMBY Democrats movement. So YIMBY, Yes In My Backyard, a bunch of people that are really interested in upzoning and building more housing to really as a way to A, house more people, but B, also lower costs of housing in major metropolitan areas. So, yeah, just follow me. And if you have any ideas on, you know, sort of what my next chapter should be, please let me know. Oh, we will. Definitely. Thank you so much again, Dulce, for all of this. We love your energy and your spirit and your overcoming of challenges. And we're just so happy to have had this conversation with you. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so much for the opportunity. Hi, listeners. Christina here. There's an old saying, believe only half of what you read and none of what you hear. And I've been channeling that recently. I was reading an article the other day that I wanted to talk about with you guys. It was on women leaders who play sports when they are growing up and how that influences their life choices, but also their leadership style. And the article had a lot of good info and statistics. I mean, did you know that 94 percent of women in C-suites played sports when they were kids? I didn't either. And we'll get to that stuff later. But I noticed at the end of the article that it was written in 2020. And it had popped up in my news feed as if it were very recent, as in published in maybe January 25 or December 24. So I realized that five years ago is not as recent as I wanted. And I need more time to go and look up more recent statistics before I share them with you. But it did get me thinking. And therefore, I'm changing my message. Just a reminder to not count on your feeds to provide you with up-to-the-minute information. First, look for the date on what you're reading. If you can't find one, that information is suspect. Second, are there links or references or any kind of resources included in the article? Having reference points usually means you can double check the stats or info in the article. And that's always a good thing. Third, evaluate if the article sounds like an opinion or is labeled an opinion piece. Recognize what you're reading as opinion from fact. You can research the article's author and who they might be sponsored by, what they're involved in, and even who subscribes to them. And this is just another handy way of knowing where the information is coming from, inside or outside of the writer's head. Watch out for people who state their opinions as facts. These are just three simple steps to considering how you intake information. And for other tips and tricks and good articles on information misinformation, check out the show notes for this episode. For more information on today's guest, check out the show notes for this episode. Thanks for joining us. you