Ep 63 Washita Massacre

The Curious Cousins talk about their upcoming plans, including attending a Trans-Siberian Orchestra concert, a basketball game, a Christmas program, and a Nutcracker performance. They also discuss their desire to go to a Route 66 Christmas shoot and the difficulty in finding a time to meet up. They also mention a listener reaching out about a previous episode and the importance of honoring the remains of deceased individuals. They then discuss their decision to change up their podcast format and take turns covering different topics. Finally, Jess starts discussing the history of Black Kettle and the Washita Massacre, mentioning her sources for the information. Hi I'm Jess and I'm Tiff and we're your Curious Cousins where we talk about everything kooky and spooky in the state of Oklahoma. Welcome to episode 63. Welcome. How are you? I'm good how are you? I am back to being sick again. I can hear it. I can't shake it you know I was like good one week I was sick one week I was good the next week and I guess that I'm sick again. Well maybe maybe you'll get over it just in time for Christmas. I hope to get sick all over again. Right exactly. So yeah what's been going on? Well not a lot it's gonna be a busy weekend. I'm taking my mom to the Trans-Siberian Orchestra concert at the BOK tomorrow. That'll be exciting. She's always wanted to go. I've heard great things about it. And tickets really weren't that expensive like I hope the seats are okay you know. I've heard every seat is good like no matter where people have gone to see it. So we're excited. She has a pedicure and a manicure at four o'clock tomorrow so hopefully. At the concert I think that's at 730 so hopefully we'll have enough time. I'm sure you'll have plenty of time. And then Saturday is it H who has a game in my neck of the woods? I think so I think so yeah because I think. I'm gonna try and go to that. Yeah because it's I mean right there. Right right right. And then Sunday my parents have their little Christmas program at church. Oh I forgot about that. And then we immediately from there to drive to Bartlesville because my niece is in the Nutcracker up there. Right right. So busy. Busy week. Weekend. We just have basketball. Yeah that's it. We need to fit in some Christmas cookie making. Yes. That needs to happen. I really want to go to the Route 66 Christmas shoot. I do too. What day do you leave for Branson? Thursday. Thursday. Because we leave for Moorland Friday and we'll be gone until Sunday and then we'll be back Sunday. Maybe we could do it Sunday night. Christmas Eve. I was thinking this Sunday night. Oh this Sunday night. But if you wanted to try Christmas Eve. No I don't want to try Christmas Eve. Either that or I was thinking maybe Tuesday or Wednesday maybe. Okay. My mom might want to come. Okay. We still have school next week so. Yeah I mean I technically have work but I'm like taking off. One second. Daily phone call. I don't know. She's so difficult. All parents are. I don't know when to get my mom either. I mean I'm making her a calendar. Let's see. iTunes gift card. Goth card. And I can't replace it. She's being difficult this year. Okay. Sorry about that. What was I talking about? I don't know what we were talking about. I don't either. I don't remember. We were talking about the Christmas shoot. Did your chapstick just break? Oh yeah because I had it up all the way. Silly. Okay. I'll just put it back down. I don't remember. You were talking. Oh maybe Tuesday or Wednesday you said. Yeah. And then. Before you leave for Branson. Yeah. So maybe Tuesday or Wednesday. Yeah. We could do that. We'll see. We'll see. It'll be fine. Yeah. Good luck cutting all that stuff out. Making it sound good. I can work magic sometimes. I know you can. I know you can. I know you can. So Jess and I have decided to. Oh we have some business. Oh. Never mind. So my mom went to UConn earlier this week. Okay. And she was talking to Grandma. Okay. And she had mentioned to Grandma or I guess Grandma had asked her like what we had been covering or something like that. Or what our last episode was. And my parents haven't listened to the one from last week yet. But they listened to the Dust Bowl. Okay. And so she asked if we had talked to Grandma. And I know we had every intention of doing that. We got busy at Thanksgiving. We did. And anyway. So Grandma actually told my mom that she remembered this one time. Because our grandmother is from Fort Cobb. And I guess she was real close to her dad. She was like a daddy's girl. And she said she would like towards when he would be getting off work or coming in from. I mean was he a farmer? I don't even know. Okay. When he would come home. He. She would be waiting. Like she would watch for him. And then go and like greet him. Well there was one time. They. She was looking outside. And she said all you could see was this like dust cloud. Like she said it was this dark dust cloud. And she said that her mom. I guess they usually left the door open. Oh. Excuse me. Pardon me. She said that she just had these like dirt streaks down her face because of the dust. Yeah. And that was in Fort Cobb. So that's. And that wasn't even. You know Fort Cobb wasn't even an area that was like super hit by it you know. Right. And it was probably. It was probably kind of like. You know they have like aftershocks. Right. Earthquakes and stuff. It was probably just like the after dust of. From up in the panhandle. But so anyway. He's like OK. Thanks. Like why don't you ask dad. He might have some ideas. Um. But anyway. And I don't know if I got that story completely right. Or you know whatever. But that's what my mom said. So I guess we should have talked to grandma. We should have. I guess we still can. Yeah we do. And we can get like an up more updated. You're better at remembering details than I am. But anyway that's our business. Well I did have a listener reach out to us about last week's episode. And I'm not really going to share a lot of the details. But she was telling me that one of her co-workers. I don't know if she let her co-worker if she had her co-worker listen to the episode or if they were listening to it together. But the co-worker had mentioned that the co-worker's mother had worked at the hospital in Fort Supply and had worked with Gregory. Oh. And so she remembered him very well. And then there was mentioned that Gregory was cremated and that his remains have not been claimed yet. So I was able to pass that story along to his family member that I work with. Oh wow. And like I understand that he did some a terrible thing. Right. And regardless on whether or not we think that you know I definitely believe that he had a mental illness. Right. He absolutely did. But I think towards the end I kind of question if he really did because if he was stable enough to be released and then stable enough to make the decision to go back in to the hospital so that he wouldn't face criminal charges. I don't know about that. Yeah. But anyway like I definitely I don't think that he deserves to just sit on a shelf. His remains. Forgotten. Yeah forgotten. Not put to peace at peace. And of course you know none of us know the relationship like what his family may have been after in the aftermath of their father's death. But maybe just trying to maybe get him a place of rest and not just on a shelf. And it's really sad because I was like I never thought about what would happen. What happens to the remains when a body is not claimed. Right. And I know like you know if they're buried they're usually just buried in like an unknown grave or something or a prisoner. 5 4 1 2 3 6 or whatever. Precisely. Precisely. And but so I never you know I didn't know. But what do they do like if they are cremated. You know what. What do they do. And so it was interesting to find that bit of information out there. Absolutely. I do hope that our story brought a little bit of comfort to his family. Because I know that a lot of them were kind of kept in the dark about the situation. And I think on both sides to remember that loved ones were lost on both sides. And you know I think it's always a good idea like especially if it has to do with mental illness to know like when mental illness runs into your family to be on the lookout for it. So I thought that was interesting. A little interesting to bits for sure. But like I mentioned a second ago before I was interrupted by our business. Sorry. No you're fine. Jess and I have decided we're going to maybe change things up just a little bit. Right. We're going to do a trial run. Do a trial. Right. We've kind of gotten into a pattern where we kind of rushed through our research and I'm and we're not comfortable with that. Right. We want to bring you guys like the best information that we can. And so we thought about we would start taking turns. And so like last week I did true crime. Right. And so this week. This week Jess is going to cover Oklahoma history. Next week I will cover paranormal. And then the next week after that Jess will do true crime. And then it would fall next on me to do Oklahoma history. So we're both still covering all the same topics. Right. But now we don't have to feel as stressed anymore or as rushed. And sometimes we have a busy week. Right. I mean like your boys have basketball and things like that. Right. You know the holidays right now are just right around the corner. And we just thought we'd try something different. And if it doesn't work we can go back. We'll go back. Exactly. If you guys don't like it let us know. If you don't like the way it's set up just let us know. Right. Those might be a little shorter but that's OK. Right. Exactly. So we're just going to give it a whirl. Yeah. Give it a good college try here. We'll see how it goes. So Jess what. Tell us a story today about some Oklahoma history. All right. So like you said this is Episode 63 and I am covering Black Kettle and the Ouachita Massacre. Oh. So. Anyway. You haven't even started yet. I've got this on there and like why is that there. I don't know. I have no idea. Anyway. So my sources. I use little known tales in Oklahoma. My sources are little known tales in Oklahoma history by Alton Pryor. It happened in Oklahoma by Robert L. Dorman. Battle of Ouachita from OK History dot org. Ouachita Battlefield National Historic Site. That's from Legends of America. Ouachita Battlefield from the National Park Service dot gov. Black Kettle from the Denver Library and biography of Black Kettle also from the National Park Service. So I want to preface this with setting the scene so to speak. In the decades before the Civil War the U.S. government regarded Native American tribes as sovereign and independent nations and sought ways to remove them from coveted lands as well as protect them against white encroachment. So or encroachment. How would you say that? Encroachment. OK. I'm going to read that again then. In decades. It's going to be a fun night. In decades before. OK. You're just reading. That's all it is. In the decades before the Civil War the U.S. government regarded Native American tribes as sovereign and independent nations and sought ways to remove them from coveted lands as well as protect them against white encroachment. Congress devised a reservation policy that called for concentrating the tribes on small, well-defined tracts of land that legislators believed would be free from white intrusion. Some Plains tribes accepted life on reservations. Others did not, continuing to hunt and live on traditional lands outside the reservations. This choice produced little conflict up until the 1860s when the harsh realities of Manifest Destiny saw more and more gold seekers and land-hungry settlers start to penetrate the Plains and encroach the land. Many tribes, including the Cheyenne and Arapaho, decided to defend their freedom rather than submit to reservation life. So with that being said, I'm going to start with Black Kettle. OK. Maybe. I hope this is interesting. Black Kettle was a chief of the southern Cheyenne people. He fought for peace even as his people suffered brutality and death at the hands of the government. Black Kettle, and I'm not even going to try to pronounce it in Cheyenne because I don't want to butcher it. He was born around, one source said 1803 and another said 1807 in the Dakotas to mother Sparrowhawk and father Swift Hawk. He had a sister named Wind Woman and two brothers named Gentle Horse and Wolf. When he was three years old, his tribe, known as the Buffalo People, joined the larger Cheyenne tribe and he was an excellent horse rider by the age of eight and he went on his first buffalo hunt at 12. At 14, he showed bravery in his first battle. That's scary. At 14, he showed bravery in his first battle with another tribe and gained respect among his people. While still a teenager, he joined the Elkhorn Scraper Society. These societies were community leaders that would meet and then talk to their chief about important matters. The chiefs of other Cheyenne tribes then gathered in a group called Council of the 44. Once Black Kettle became recognized as a full man within Elkhorn Scraper Society, he married a woman named Little Sage. By the 1830s, Black Kettle and his people drifted down toward the eastern plains of what is now Colorado. They became known as the Southern Cheyenne and had good relationships with many of the trappers and mountain men that were around Bent's Fort near Lawanta. Unfortunately, they still fought with many other plains tribes like the Kiowa, Comanche, Crow, Pawnee, Shawnee, and the Ute. Most of their lives involved following the herds of buffalo across the plains for food. Even groups of white settlers were not much of a problem until the 1840s. By the late 1840s, the Gold Rush came to California and many more settlers moved west. They brought with them cholera, which killed many people, though Black Kettle and Little Sage survived. Their lives of the Cheyenne were rapidly changing, and Black Kettle thought the settlers bringing their cows into the west proved an old prophecy that the buffalo would one day be replaced by a horned animal. Because he thought these changes could not be stopped, he wanted to work towards peace with the white people. In 1851, he and thousands of other members of different plains tribes met at Fort Laramie. There they signed a treaty with the U.S. government to ensure peace. The treaty was unfavorable towards the southern Cheyenne. Black Kettle was a pragmatist. Basically, he was matter-of-fact, realistic, and sensible. He believed that the U.S. military power and the number of immigrants were overwhelming, and yet the tribes still fought among themselves. While Black Kettle was off fighting another tribe in Mexican territory, his wife believed that the U.S. military power and the number of immigrants were overwhelming. He believed that the U.S. military power and the number of immigrants were overwhelming. He believed that the U.S. military power and the number of immigrants were overwhelming. Eventually, Black Kettle would marry Medicine Woman of the Watupayu. This was spelled W-O-T-A-P-I-O. W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O W-O-T-A-P-I-O