Ep 49 Girl Scout Murders pt 4

we're live oh that's me hi it's Jeff no 49 episodes in and we still know what to say hi it's just okay that was like a live stroke happening hi it's just I'm Jess I'm Jess I'm Tiff hi I'm Jess you know what we should next week we should release the take 47 hi I'm Jess and I'm Tiff and we're your curious cousins where we talk about everything kooky and spooky in the state of Oklahoma welcome to episode 49 welcome how are you that was good until about you would think 49 episodes then we'd figure out how we start each show but every day is a new day yeah let's just say brain farts were involved and I forgot what I was doing yes so today is our season finale season one I feel like it went really well I mean yeah yeah I mean we've got 463 yeah yes you know 463 followers on Facebook we have 83 followers on Instagram yeah I don't know how many followers we have on Twitter but um I don't know either we've also made some great connections now have some new friends yes have like our sisters in Oklahoma podcasting now and we've had over 10,000 downloads that's crazy it's insane so I remember we were just going to be happy if we had like five yeah we're related to us yeah we'll have to make a new one I know we'll need a new one so but I guess what I'm really trying to say is thank you yeah thank you guys we couldn't have done gals y'all thank y'all thank y'all yeah we could not have done this without you all support and love and everyone's been so nice and so gracious and that's what I was nervous about like people would get mean but nobody has ever been mean to us and not to our face so we are excited we will bring you season two in September so we're gonna take a little bit of a break yeah we just need a little bit of break to write to start school oh it's already am I every minute of my every moment of my day is scheduled right now and when I haven't even officially come back to school yet I don't even do that till next Monday just just needs a little bit of break we all need that we all need this out there treat us sales and it's I like how it worked out where two crimes our last one so the next time we start over it's a dark history and we definitely still have some shows to cover we still and we still want recommendations right suggestions and I think another fun thing we've gotten some really great listener tales and so we may have to bring that back yeah you know if you guys have anything you want to show any kooky or spooky story you want to share with us please do you know you don't even have to put your name on if you don't want we won't have to be like paranormal if you have like a crazy true crime right something or another that happened in your town or something or you saw yeah it is like a witness to it or something that'd be cool I mean it's probably not cool but it would be cool if you told us about it so yeah I'm so I'm just we're just real thankful yeah how you guys know we are so appreciative and you know if anybody is going to the ghost hunt this weekend in Oklahoma City with Jeff Provine if you're going to be there like don't be shy please talk to us please come up to us yes please tell us please tell us we're going to be the goofballs who are probably hanging on every word yeah or will be the one wiping the drill from her face right or the one with her phone out because she's taking notes or the one who tripped and fell in public that would be Jeff would be me mm-hmm so yeah please come and talk to us and you know share we just hope that we're just going to get bigger and better as next season comes along so I have any other business nope we just have the ghost tour this coming Saturday yeah this Saturday September I think we're still gonna maybe try and do the Rose oh yeah yeah I need to look into that again make sure that okay yeah things and then October we're going to the Tulsa Art Deco ghost walk right in the morning which I think will be fun yeah I think so too so I think that's really it okay well we are wrapping up our for party party for today over the Girl Scout murders I will just tell you that doing this deep dive into it has just really opened up my eyes a lot of course being an Oklahoman this is a case that most of us are familiar with and even if we weren't at some point you know we became familiar with like you know it's only been about two years since I became familiar with it but and there's still a lot of questions I think there's still a lot of holes and I don't know it's just it's one of those that you know I think we've talked about it before like if we had to rank the top cases that we would want yeah to be solved like I I think you and I both have this might be our number one yeah and like to fully solve like fully we have the full story and I mean in my mind it ranks up there with like cases like John Bonnet Ramsey and like the Zodiac killers yeah and I mean because I think this is the 47th year yes I believe 77 will make it 50 and to think that a case that has been unsolved for that long right one of those where we now know who did it well yeah we know he was a part of it we don't know why right they will never know why do you know he was definitely involved right and it's just it just goes to show that if you keep persevering and questioning and you know trying to get it out there that it can you know keep what's the word I'm looking for like keep it up in people's mind right it's something that you know yes I mean prime examples would be you know right now those guilt the Gil the Gil go Beach murders you know those were some things that were unsolved and unsolved and unsolved and now look at it you know thank goodness for Google and ancestry.com and I know the Lady of the Dunes BTK the Golden State killer all of these are prime examples of why why we still do what we do why we do a mini podcast do what we did yes and you know because I'll be honest I like to talk about the spooky stuff mm-hmm talking about true crime it gets to me and because you just look at it I mean of course we all look from it from hindsight and you're just like gosh like why you know yeah so I just that's just kind of my yes opinions and feelings about it so you know and you never know what you could have seen or what you know and there are such things as death by confessionals and that could start happening anytime soon so yeah so I guess I will go ahead and get started so we ended the last episode with the trial of Jean Leroy Hart versus the state of Oklahoma and he was found not guilty of first degree murder in the deaths of Lori Farmer Doris Milner and Michelle Guse so now what happened after okay so and then I think I also mentioned that Hart was returned to prison because he still had 308 years worth of sentences that he had to complete for all of his burglary crimes and you know two three months I mean it was like June 4th I think he dies of an alleged it was like what they say two years yeah after the murder yeah almost almost two years because he died in 79 June it was like June 4th yeah yeah June 12th I only remember that cuz my mom's birthday so he died now I will tell you that it is alleged and I only say that that is what that his death certificate says he died of a heart attack that is what the state of Oklahoma will tell you he died I did read in various sources that his family did not believe that to be true they believed that he was murdered in prison and that it was kind of a cover-up but on the same token when you look at things like this and we I'm not condoning this by any means I'm not saying that this is right but prison justice seems to take care of its own I mean the case of what's his name not John Wayne Gacy oh my gosh just cut this whole part out okay but we just we there's several cases that we are familiar with especially the truth I think I know what you're talking about um but it's like not coming I know his head's not coming it'll come to us it will it will and everyone I everyone of all of our fans are screaming his name at us right now but he was murdered in prison and it's gonna bother me so bad but um so it's just that it's one of those things like his family I believe believed that he was murdered in prison because that people honestly believed that he was the murderer even though the jury of his peers found him innocent so I'm like I said I'm not saying that that's right but I'm also I'm not dumb enough to say that that kind of stuff doesn't happen in prison well we all kind of know that one thing you don't mess with our children absolutely and Dahmer Jeffrey Dahmer I know it's come to you I know so it's yeah prison has its own kind of justice right exactly and I'm not saying that that's right like I mean I don't necessarily think that is right especially we're just saying it happened it happened it and and I I don't know that I believe that that's what really happened his family believes that's what really happened or that something along those lines happened I don't know that I believe that I have a hard time well okay it just to me it's we don't know right right we don't know and yeah we don't know and until any type of evidence we're to ever come forward then I you know would say at this point what good would it do right it's not like we can bring him back and I mean yeah right so we're going to go to June 29th of 1977 okay kind of something strange happens so this is almost excited little over two years I mean two years in like two weeks essentially after the murders there at Camp Scott a Girl Scout was dragged from her tent in Sarasota Florida during camp and so I feel like we're all under the impression that all these security measures were supposed to be taken now and for this to happen and this happened in Oscar and I don't know if I'm pronouncing this right Schraer State Park to a 15 year old camper her name was Charlotte gross she was dragged by her hair through a thick underbrush here again thick underbrush which you know they were supposed to be getting rid of that kind of stuff by a heavyset man he simply ripped open the back of the tent and grabbed the girl before dawn two other girls were present in the tent and screamed alerting leaders and other campers so here again I don't think any counselors were present in the tent with the girls the sheriff was immediately called and deputies quickly found boot prints and bear footprints leading bear not bear like the animal bear be a oh I was like great this is Florida this is a Florida right actually have black bear they don't have yeah bear be a are easy footprints leading to an old plant nursery on June 30th the girl called her father and reported that she was safe it was reported that this phone call took place 17 hours after she had been abducted she assured her father she was okay and would be released soon July 3rd the girl was released unharmed and her abductor was apprehended so Charlotte she was missing for a total of 53 hours so okay so she wasn't murdered though no she wasn't she was abducted I none of my sources said anything about her being assaulted in any way so it it does say that she was unharmed so I'm assuming that maybe he just drug her out I never said any reason why he did it so yeah I'm just a little kind of a kooky thing that happened yeah at the end of July of 1977 a pair of tennis shoes appeared at Camp Scott it was rumored to have been Denise Milner or to be Denise Milner's because it was claimed that her name was written inside the shoes they said that they were found on the front steps of the quote command post which was used during the investigation this was the rumor for a very very long time actually and I think a lot of people believed it to have actually been true yeah in fact it wasn't officially refuted until 2014 when Denise's mother finally came forward and stated that they were not her daughter's shoes the shoes had been those of a previous camper and and furthermore Denise's worked inside of them yeah I think I remember reading that somewhere or something like that that just seems so odd like why would they just randomly show up like that I think at that point people was close at that it was it was closed it was closed and I feel like people were just messing with with investigators because at this time they should have still had an investigation open because they had no murderer right so it's just something I think that was odd maybe I mean if we want to go into conspiracies you know when you think about it I for one do not think that Jean Lee were hot active alone yeah I don't either and could that have been the other person who was with him you know doing something trying to throw yeah absolutely trying to throw him off so that's just my thought you know April of 1979 William Bill Alton Stevens he had denied involvement in the cat camp Scott murders and he was one of those that people had accused he was one of the suspects at one time he was interviewed by OSPI again while serving a life sentence in Kansas for rape robbery and kidnapping along with his partner Dwayne Peters so you can tell at this point they're still investigating and so they go and this this guy was like there's suspect number two you know and so they went and they're like all right let's talk to you on May 16th of 1979 two of the victims families sued for 3.5 million dollars this would amend a September of 1977 lawsuit by the same families against the Magic Empire Council stupid question okay who did they sue they were suing the Magic Empire Council and their insurance companies okay they're suing them for libel that they were the reason that the girls were murdered on June 12th of 1979 so exactly two years after the after the Girl Scout murders a nude man is chased from a Girl Scout tent in Topeka Kansas the camp counselor woke up to a noise found the man in a tent with four sleeping girls and chased him and caught him she caught him she caught him she beat him well here's the thing he hit her in the head with a flashlight and got away but she tackled him what is wrong with people but she I mean that goes yeah oh I think I needed to amend what I said the my very first comment about June 29th 1977 that was two weeks after the murders not two years the murders happened in 1977 well when I first said at the very beginning when I said June 29th 1977 I said oh this event happened two years after no it happened two weeks sorry about that to everyone who was screaming at me at least you caught it right before we edited I know so I apologize there all right so in 1981 the Magic Empire Council in Tulsa acquired land on the zinc ranch in Osage County known as Camp Tallchief so many of our present-day Girl Scouts are probably like Girl Scouts our age are probably familiar with Camp Tallchief the purpose was to resume Girl Scout summer camps cabins were now raised cabins and not tents they had walls there were fewer trees and they weren't remember back in like the 1920s or 30s they went and planted a bunch of trees that was not going to happen to go around a large barbed wire fence surrounded the camp there were professional security guards on-site places for medical and and or law enforcement to provide quick responses in case of an emergency what year was this 79 81 81 yeah I feel like that's still just too soon right like I don't like if I had gone in 77 and I was like on the younger side if you were a I part of me things I would be just oh too scared to even absolutely absolutely especially if you run that first session in 77 all staff member all staff members were screened and attended mandatory trainings of health and safety and emergency procedures parents and visitors were not allowed to show up at at camp unannounced at any time they weren't allowed to I mean I get that but how does that help with people who sneak their way on like mr. Jean Leroy Hart but now we've got a big fence a big tall fence with barbed wire surrounding it so it wouldn't prevent anybody but it would prevent some you know on June 13th of 1982 the future of Camp Scott was debated it had not been read reopened since the murders the gate was locked and guarded by a new park ranger it wasn't the same one that was there during the murders that guy after the murders he packed up and moved and he wasn't good and I can 100% I don't blame him at all May 12th of 1984 Mays County Sheriff Paul Smith announced he knew who murdered the three girls he claimed it was not Jean Hart he believed one of the murder weapons to be a hammer he also sent divers to search Fort Gibson reservoir for a car the suspects drove he believed more than one person was involved which like I say before like I mean I agree with that yes two different weapons were used and two different kinds of knots were used to bind the girls so that also it in my mind also indicates that there was probably more than one murderer by May 16th at that same year OSB I discounted the claims because the hammer didn't match the pattern marks found on the victims divers also never located a car well see like part of me is like that's almost like sending them on a well absolutely because then come to find out the witness who helped Sheriff Smith admitted to lying let's waste all of our right you're wasting all of it and I don't think some people realize that they were either on the side of Jean Leroy Hart or they were in the group where they just wanted the reward money right for whatever purpose or the acclaim of solving the case I think so and I just I think people don't realize like when you are sending divers to go search a lake that is taking taxpayers money that could be used in other cases for other reasons true and that's a waste right the same with I mean maybe the hammer maybe that wasn't so much of a waste you wanted to test to make sure yeah see just to see but and then when you find out this guy was just lying or this person was just lying like I don't know arrested you should be fined for the amount of money that you took from the taxpayers but I know it happens all the time yeah it happens all the time on June 13th of 1984 Sheriff Smith still wanted to pursue the murders and with the help of OS BI a new active investigation started the next day this is really kind of kooky that Bill Stevens he dies in prison after being stabbed to death in his in his cell by a cellmate or just it didn't say by who but I mean I would assume it's by a cellmate or somebody on March 19th of 1985 dr. and mrs. farmer and mr. and mrs. Milner file a civil suit against the Magic Empire Council for negligence of the Scout Council and insurance company they are asking or they asked for 2.5 million dollars each which would be about it would be over 7 million dollars today in actual and punitive damages this was the second time the families had filed suit against the council and its insurance company it was argued that adequate security was not provided the insurance company inspected the property the camp before signing the liability policy and saying that it was fine thus they should have realized those inadequacies because they had signed it so they knew it seems the trial was a debate on whether or not the camp was quote well run was a well-run wilderness retreat which tragically became the site of horrible but unavoidable murder spree or was it an in act was it an inadequate inadequately staffed unprotected overgrown location in which strangers thieves and ultimately killers roamed free well because if you think about how many adults were actually there right because they might have been there saying this part they say roughly 40 of the hundred and forty people they say roughly 40 of them were adults because in the Kiowa camp there was only three those were mostly younger well at least one of them we know of like a 15 year old right there was I know it's only three quote adults yeah but yeah that's a good question they don't ever come out and say how many of these counselors were younger than the age of eight not that I'm saying 18 year olds are I mean technically they are adults but I mean you could be 18 and still be in high school right and most of us spend some of our high school 18 years old you know yeah so but I mean it's a good point attorneys pointed out that the lack security heavy woods and years of intruders and theft is what is what was leading to this additionally the incidents on the camp the months prior to the murders should have warned the staff of a greater need for more security yeah I agree with that I had 100% the doughnuts that were stolen all the other items that had been stolen before the campers even gone there should have been taken more serious and lawyers were like these incidents should have been reported to authorities yeah they weren't the camps attorneys argued that the intrusions were often that of local sportsmen or other camp members or even pranks and that contacting police was unnecessary here's my thing if you see some strange man walking through your camp with a rifle you're going to go say something to him right you don't know those people maybe if you did if you would have had a fence surrounding the whole place right and I have a feeling that and I think they didn't they didn't have a fence so if there's these hunters going around furthermore you've got girls at summer camp you've got hunters walking around like where's the stray bullet could hit him at any time is what I don't know that's how it really was but that's how I am seeing it right now what was it I think it was the first kids that was found was found by some squirrel hunters exactly in the summer in the summer though okay so that makes sense like if that's happening there's no telling who could be walking through those camps at any time mm-hmm Sheriff Weaver even admitted that the day of the campers arrival in June of 1977 he was in fact investigating a burglary of a farmhouse near the camp that day is it that Shroff I believe so yeah Jean Leroy Hart was often cited at his mother's home where she lived a mile from Camp Scott mm-hmm the Sheriff also realized after the murders that the camp had no security it was also discovered that camp leaders had never been told what to do in the event of an intrusion in fact intrusions were kept a secret as to quote not upset the new counselors or campers wait say that one more time it was these intrusions were kept a secret because they did not want to upset new counselors or campers I don't have any words I can't I can't even magic Empire officials argued that they had planned for every type of emergency but never would have planned for or imagined murder to happen then you didn't plan for every type of emergency it doesn't sound like you planned very well exactly because if you planned for every type of emergency then murder should have been one of those considered and I hate to say that maybe it's because I'm looking at it through 2023 lenses and not 1977 lenses well I'm stuck on the fact of the the intrusions before the camp even opened for the campers yeah like that just baffles right they claimed that every time they would tell the Locust Grove police authorities about incidents they were told the camp was out of their jurisdiction it was also stated that even though the camp was believed to fall under Mays County jurisdiction Locust Grove police advised them to contact the police not the sheriff's office so right there we have two contradicting statements and at that point who do they contact right if that is true and I don't know if it is that is what this is what the camp is saying that the police told them and not very well exactly exactly Barbara Day believed that oh wait that the OHP trooper Harold Barry routinely walked through the 410 acre camp to check on its safety he walked through 410 acres routinely 410 acres well how how how like you start at one point how long do you think it actually takes you to walk the entire camp back to the point you started with 410 acres right you can't tell me that it didn't take less than an hour it probably you're in the woods too yeah in the woods on steep terrain and it's one person one anybody can slip by one person it was also claimed by Paul J. Thompson Tulsa security expert and the security director of American Airlines and a former presidential bodyguard so he had the accolades to back this up that he felt several basic security improvements at the camp would have helped deter the murder common sense he thinks was not used and I might have to agree with that I I think I would have to do things like all-night watches unarmed guard less underbrush better placements of tents and cabins a bell system to ring when intruders were encountered would have all helped mm-hmm it was discovered the counselors did have walkie-talkies however the camp state the camp base station wasn't working what's the point so on March 27th of 1985 the Jew the jury ruled in favor with a 9 to 3 vote in favor of the Magic Empire Council and this insurance are you kidding me no and in the lens of 2023 eyes they would have been sued and in today I think that would have been reversed mm-hmm but yes so on May 7th of 1985 new trial requests were rejected by the civil lawsuit by the parents of the victims in June of 1985 an appeal was filed to the Oklahoma Supreme Court but in December of 1986 the state court of appeals upheld the 1985 decision that the Magic Empire Council was not liable for the murders did they go bankrupt I don't know I think they're still here I'm pretty sure that's still who runs the Tulsa one shame on you in August of 1988 camp Scott officially goes up for sale several acres on the south end was sold in the spring of 1987 and the rest was sold in late of 1988 and I believe whoever bought it then still owns it today in 1989 the Girl Scout murders by Charles saucer is or staffer is produced but pulled from shipping there was a possible copyright infringement to Wilkerson's book and I must have yes where I put oh I did I skipped it somehow I skipped this part that in 1981 the first book about the murders someone cried for the children by Dick Wilkerson was published okay so in 1989 the Girl Scout murders by Charles saucer was published but pulled from shipping because they thought there was going to be a copyright infringement from Wilkerson's book okay June 7th 1989 first DNA evidence is delivered to the FBI from the murders this is unusual because the FBI made a special exception for the Girl Scout case it broke its rule that it was only accepting active cases this was the only cold case that they were accepting and at this point it's do you say 87 or 89 89 so yeah 12 years old in October on October 24th of 1989 the first DNA tests failed to conclusively answer questions regarding a murder suspect on October 25th genetic testing linked Jean Hart but could not conclusively determine if he was the killer his body fluids matched three of the five DNA probes from the evidence 75% the DNA evidence was getting to be old and starting to deteriorate thus making results inconclusive and we have to you know say at that point in 1977 they knew that they needed to keep that stuff they knew that someday we might be able but I don't know that they knew how to properly store it yeah I mean they just didn't have that technology right though right so you can't can't blame them there right on August 20th of 1990 Minister Reverend Gerald Manley claimed to have witnessed the murders and could I be two of the killers he claimed he ran out of gas late one night and two young men men drove up to help him the men talked about a stolen purse from a counselor's tent at Camp Scott the minister got his gas and then went to sleep in his car he then claimed one of the men woke him up brought him to a tent at Camp Scott where he saw two more men he did not know he looked in the tent and saw one victim on the floor and two others zipped up in sleeping bags so if this is true there are now four men inside of the Kiowa camp right furthermore if you saw that why didn't you say something in 1977 OSB I said when the story was originally brought forward years prior there was nothing to substantiate his story I don't believe it anyway on June 8th of 1996 private investigator Ted La Turner claimed to have three suspects an eyewitness and evidence regarding the murder case he filed a petition seeking a grand jury to look into the murder investigation he previously claimed OSB I had some evidence he had submitted as a PI in 1989 and 90 La Turner wanted the case reopened and asked the FBI to perform two DNA tests on a man in a canvas prism a man recently released from Oklahoma Department of Corrections and a man living in eastern Oklahoma on June 11th Mays County District Judge James Goodpaster invalidated La Turner's petition to investigate due to not meeting legal requirements unnamed eyewitnesses unspecified scientific evidence unspecified crime committed by unnamed law enforcement officials so it was all hearsay at that point right on June 13th La Turner refiled the petition on June 15th the district judge certifies the petition so I'm assuming he all of a sudden he's got all these names mm-hmm I don't know why he just wouldn't have done it in the first place yeah La Turner had 45 days to gather approximately 340 signatures saying that they believe that the case needed to be reopened however La Turner was facing jail time if he didn't pay seven hundred and seventy five dollars and forty cents of a $1,000 fine he had received in 1991 for operating as a PI without a license good grief he did pay the fine so on July 4th La Turner postponed his efforts due to upcoming elections there was it was election season so November 16th he refiled now though the law had changed and he was mean to collect 500 signatures however by December 25th he still hadn't got he still hadn't submitted anything and a new law started so now he needed one thousand nine hundred and thirty four signatures however he claimed that he had over 2,000 so why he never turned in those is a mystery so on January 22nd of 1997 La Turner misses his deadline for submission so there's that on May 19th of 2002 on May 19th of 2002 DNA testing from a 2001 investigation failed to link Hart to the murders the samples were insufficient and to deteriorated however a partial DNA profile from a woman was retrieved again it was only partial so they could not rule it out as being a victim or even a counselor's or even being a mom because maybe a mom touched it or something or sneezed on it I don't know you know or could it have been the work of another murderer yeah and if you know in the vest in the investigation when counselors were being questioned many times they were asked you know they thought maybe one of the murderers could have been a woman yeah they were asked and I I know we didn't really include this because I think it was it's bananas that they asked this question if any of them were lesbians oh and I just I I scoff and roll my eyes at that because I it had to have just been that time period you know and I it's just disgusting to think that that's what they wanted to jump to right in July 8th of 2002 all of the sudden Ted LaTurner he's back unnamed people are now named he's named them all he claims the murderers to be Sonny James Bill Stevens and Frank Justice his eyewitness was Minister Reverend Gerald Manley who claimed that he saw all four of those men inside the tent the night of the murders including Jean Leroy Hart hmm additionally three evidence bags were found in Mays County Jail in Locust Grove the same year it the jail was serving as an evidence locker in 2002 these bags were deteriorated grocery bags stacked on an old bunk that were stapled shut and marked it was stated to have dried blood samples from the victims is what it said that it was here's a kooky fact though Ted LaTurner allegedly became overwhelmed and copped out leaving town and started drinking he left in November of 1996 before the grand jury could be called in LaTurner it turns out was a former special deputy for Paul Smith who was the sheriff investigating the murders in the 1980s LaTurner mysteriously disappeared without a trace in 1996 he eventually returned to Oklahoma cleaned up and didn't have any plans on reinvestigating the case I don't even know what to say on May 25th of 2007 more DNA testing began on June 25th of 2008 the DNA testing was inconclusive stating that the samples were too deteriorated on July 8th of 2011 John Russell John Russell Penn an ex-convict who admitted to having a checkered past claimed he would reveal the murder of the girls in his upcoming movie he named Carl Myers as the perpetrator stating that Myers had admitted to the murders and a drunken stupor in 1978 while the two were in jail in Ottawa County in jail and he was drunk that's a good point maybe he was it maybe he had like Republican talks or something in the drunk tank you said it was Osage Jail Ottawa Oh Ottawa yeah I mean maybe maybe March 8th 2014 OSBI authorized a comprehensive review of some 200 pieces of evidence with the most up-to-date forensic science the National Center for missing and exploited children agreed to help Mays County Sheriff OSBI case agent and OSBI lab director all traveled to Virginia to consult with those experts and submit evidence to a private lab July or June of 2017 $30,000 is raised in private donations to send evidence in for testing on June 11th of 2021 Cherokee County Sheriff Jason Chenault and retired Cherokee County investigator Jack Goss claimed to have a new lead stated that during a taped interview in December of 1990 Johnny Roch Rammel or Roach Rammel I don't know how to pronounce that said he and several other guys were at Baron Fort Creek a few weeks after the murders Roach Rammel told authorities that the brothers Wesley and Jesse Darrell Duffield told him that Hart didn't do the crimes they know who did however those men were deceased so I leave it at 2021 and you're gonna pick up with the latest yes so Sheriff Mike Reed he he spent his childhood in Mays County and he was a boy when the murders happened and he never thought for a second that he would be the one asked to reopen the case or take another look at the crime and Lori Farmer's parents Sherry and Beau Farmer are the ones who approached Reed and asked him to give the case a fresh look and I believe that was in 2012 he said quote when I give my word that means something to me I gave them my word I didn't know what I could do but I'd look at it so one year after Sheriff Reed began examining the case he and OSPI consulted with like you just said the National Center of Missing and Exploited Children where the case was assessed by 23 homicide investigators FBI behavioral analysis and profilers and the best of the best in law enforcement made up a cold case board that investigated some of the oldest and most complex homicides in the country and after only about a month and looking into this case this board pretty much agreed that Jean Leroy Hart had to have been the killer so investigators actually made the suggestion to the family the Farmer family that the DNA needed to be analyzed again however the testing I think you just mentioned would cost a pretty penny right at $30,000 and that was money that the sheriff's office didn't have yeah however the cool thing about it is is the residents of May County were actually the ones who raised the entire fund right to get the DNA right tested so no full DNA profile had ever been developed and officially the testing results like you said were considered inconclusive and inconclusive doesn't mean unhelpful right and partial profiles can be used to eliminate suspects yes and Reed said that authorities questioned over a hundred and thirty potential suspects in the case and other names surfaced through the years kind of like you just went over right and Sheriff Reed had worked on the case for nine years and it like I said it began when the Farmer family approached him when he was elected sheriff in 2012 and so in 2022 the answer the family had been looking for all these years was delivered by Sheriff Reed Reed said that imagine I mean just to like officially know right part of me to like when you answered the door and you thought with him mm-hmm do you think like in my mind I feel like 98% of me would been like he's about to tell me he has no idea yeah I was I mean the worst at that point it would be like okay this has been going on for nine years it's gonna obviously it's gonna go one of two ways right they either know or they don't and there's nothing left I just you know I can't even imagine how nerve-wracking I had to have been that had to have been the longest walk probably from letting him into your house to sitting him down somewhere in your house in the world oh yeah so Reed said that Reed said that every single piece of DNA evidence had been accounted for and he said there's no doubt in his mind the evidence shows Jean Leroy Hart is the killer authorities released the news that the results of the existing DNA evidence quote quote strongly suggested Hart's involvement and ruled out every suspect except for him Reed was quoted saying I have a lot of quotes in here because they were just yeah too good he said quote unless something new comes up something thought or unless something new comes up something brought to light that we are not aware of I am convinced where I'm sitting of Hart's guilt and involvement in this case Reed also added that the DNA results have been known since 2019 but were not released to the public until the family requested it and I think part of this is due to I think maybe part of it's due to the family's kind of coming I don't want taking it all in right processing it right but I think the other part is I think the Keepers of the Ashes docu-series on Hulu was kind of art like in the works and so they were kind of limited on what they could release to the public because of the interviews and stuff that were going on for this docu-series yes and I know it during that time too I you know Doris Milner's father passes away Michelle I think I don't know if both her parents passed away or I know at least one of them had passed away and so it was I mean how do you honor that family when there may not be any living parents to go to I mean I guess you could you would in my mind you would contact sibling or yeah Sheriff Sheriff Reed made a statement that I found to be really impactful and he said quote I pray there's something that we've done that gives the family a second of something that even resembles closure or acceptance or something I pray that but as far as peace there's absolutely nothing about this case that has given me one second of peace period from watching the pain on the family to having to go through the crime scene before during and after from watching the legal system to watching the parole board to watching how this whole thing played out to watching how people would use this to springboard their own personal agendas there ain't nothing about this whole thing that is peaceful it is evil and I just that I had that me too when I read that that gave me chills because he's so right right you can kind of have some closure maybe but you're you're never going to have that piece no Reid also said that the facts go way beyond the DNA evidence heart was a textbook serial rapist which we all know we did yeah because you know the evidence spoke for itself I mean his past crime yeah because ten years before the Girl Scout murders he kidnapped and raped those two pregnant women he was convicted and given parole and after only serving two and a half years for that crime he was you know paroled for that yeah he says that the conspiracy never been out of jail he never should have been out of nowhere but never he says the conspiracy theories surrounding this case over the years have been endless oh yeah and he agreed to look into the case for one reason and one reason only the family's Lori farmer's mother Sherry farmer has felt the pain of this crime for 45 years now this was in 2022 when I was talking and or yeah anyway she said that her and her husband Bo have some peace but there will never be closure that's what wasn't she the one who said like people when she like gets introduced to people and they say you have four children she's like no I have five oh yeah she always includes Lori mm-hmm yep gosh yep she said that she still remembers the day when heart was acquitted of the murders oh how could you not they went to visit Lori at her grave afterwards and made a promise to her that they would continue to search for justice and that they would do something positive in her memory she says that they still care about the truth she said quote it's a journey I wouldn't wish on anyone it's shocking it's different than a death it's different than a loss because our daughter was murdered right it was intentional and she died with two other little girls that we don't want to forget either Sherry and Bo farmer have dedicated their lives to victims rights and giving parents like themselves a voice she said in 1977 or sorry let me redo that she said I need a turmoil oh that's fine there we go now I can see she said quote no she said well no that is that was it like I said she said quote in 1977 there were no victims rights victims are the person who died you are not the victim now we know that when something happens victims families are victimized also we work to get that recognized that we are those people we do need help so in 1984 the couple formed the Oklahoma chapter of parents of murdered children in 2018 Sherry successfully campaigned for the passage of Marcy's law in Oklahoma which called for increased protections for victims today Sherry still works as a victim as a victims rights act advocate giving talks to students legislators civic organizations and law enforcement and this is one of the last I'm going to read from her but it's really powerful what she says she says we're not able to accomplish anything unless we can generate others to become as affected by crime as those of us who are if everybody is complacent and only people who have been affected by crime are doing anything nothing will ever happen I'm hoping to motivate other people to care even though they haven't had a murdered child I always call this Laurie's legacy of love she didn't get to live and grow up but she does have a legacy and to me it is love that's how Bo and I have lived our lives our children are all grown up our grandchildren are a lot more grown up but they have learned how to live with their sister being murdered and making amazing choices in what they do and how they conduct their lives our grandchildren have done amazing things closure will not be a part of our lives our pathway has always been justice for Laurie and to help other people and it always will be and I just thought that was beautiful the way she said that and it's so true because as especially as a mother she was that I mean a part of her died that same day and you just can't I can't I pray that I never have to experience that but I'm so I'm she's just inspirational almost because you're like from to take what she was given what you know hand she was dealt and she really is helping people who are in and like she's been like you said that she said she would never wish this on anybody right you know unfortunately the process can make some good come out of right horrible tragic instant absolutely it's amazing how you know because a lot of people might just shut down right exactly and and I and I in my mind that's the camp I would probably be in I just completely shut down yes and but for them they're just they're fighting right and I and the fight every day and I rest of their life I think that's wonderful and it's like you said they never never going to forget her they're never going to let her memory die and and not just her but the Denise and Michelle right as well and but anyway so Sherry said that she wants to make sure Laurie Denise and Michelle are remembered which I think they've done a really great yes job in May of 2022 a documentary series called Keepers of the Ashes the Oklahoma Girl Scout murders was released on Hulu it was hosted by native Oklahoman Kristen Chenoweth from Broken Arrow who had actually been scheduled to attend Camp Scott as a seven-year-old in 1977 but had backed out due to an illness an illness in the series Chenoweth was I'm like trying to get it out so I feel like I'm not breathing in the series Chenoweth said the following quote this happened there's no closure there's no pretty red bow at the end when I think of those three girls I wonder what's the best way to honor them that's why I've come back to find answers once and for all so this is actually a really great docuseries to watch if you haven't seen it highly recommend you watch it make sure you have a box of tissues because it will break your heart but it has it has so much information and it speaks to the families and law enforcement that were all involved or quite a few of them I should say the ones that are still able to write and is it sheriff Reed he's in it yes sheriff Reed is in it I think he's still the sheriff of Mays County you're right it was officially announced I think at the beginning of this year or some it was this year that they all DNA evidence from the crime matched the three girls and heart and it was officially considered solved after all this after all his research and going through the evidence over and over sheriff Reed says he can disprove every wild theory out there with actual facts except one thing which is there may have been someone else involved after the fact because of a bloody footprint found in one of the tents but he believes it's logical to assume that was someone innocently walking or he believes it is logical to assume that it was someone innocently walking into the scene but it doesn't rule it out right so that is our camp Scott Girl Scout murder inclusion Wow I did want to point out to you it's just something that I forgot to put in there but it reminded me when you were talking about the farmer family Richard do you say the father of Michelle he went on to help the state of Oklahoma legislators pass the Oklahoma Victims Bill of Rights which is a pretty big deal like to say that these are the rights that victims now have he also helped to start the Oklahoma Crime Victims Compensation Board just another way to help victims because you know it's one thing if the victims are children but if the victims are adults like that could have been that could definitely be you know a family's you know means of making ends meet right so I think that's that's another great organization that unfortunately had to come from this this atrocity and I don't know it's just it's one of those very dark marks on the state of Oklahoma and just a tragic senseless crime right he should have never been out of jail he never should have been out he never should have left the counter and have had better security measures because the blood they had was not sufficient and yes we're looking at it through 2023 hindsight eyes but in 1977 this is post Ted Bundy this is post Charles Manson this is post you know John Wayne Gacy and post you know Dahmer and we knew what serial killers were and we knew how they could we knew though we I mean it was in the middle of the Golden State Killer in the middle of the Zodiac you know all of these other things that were going on like we knew that these things could happen and and I and I like how you know yes Oklahoma in the 1970s we were still we felt very very probably far away from all of those crimes yes and that oh this is a camp back in the boonies we don't think something like that's going to happen in your town and you never think I mean let's be honest when you look at it through different ways like you know with school shootings and stuff the same thing is always that uttered well I didn't think that would happen to us yep it's unfortunately the world we live in and part of me it's like it's the world we've lived in for almost 50 I mean for 50 years plus now mm-hmm so or maybe this is just the way we've it's always been I mean Jack the Ripper was 100 and some odd years ago and look what he was doing right you know you know it's just people people there are people out there people are inherently good I think I think most all of us are good and there's just you know the three percenters that are evil sadistic people hell-bent on causing chaos yeah so yeah Wow I'm not gonna lie I'm glad that this is behind us I am too I feel like the past four weeks right emotionally for sure and a draining a little bit and we deserve a snow cone oh man yes absolutely but I'm I'm glad we were able to do it I'm I am not gonna lie I am I hope we did it justice I am glad it's over check out our source material if you want more material please look in the show notes everything is linked titles are used I think even you can click on it and it'll take you straight to the Amazon page yeah to purchase it check your local libraries if you are in Tulsa County you can get any of these books at the Tulsa City County Library if you have Hulu or you know someone who has Hulu right and there are so many and I I'm pretty sure you could Netflix to get on Netflix and just put in Girl Scout murders and I'm sure other documentaries would come up but it's definitely something that I think we've learned from I think we've learned and hopefully we never have to hopefully other people have learned yeah yeah for sure so yeah so like I said check out the show notes maybe while you're checking out the show notes go ahead and rate or leave us a review make sure you're following us on your favorite podcast listening platform and you can always catch us check us out see what we're up to on all of our socials on Facebook Instagram and Twitter and thank you thank you thank you again for a fabulous season one we have learned so much yeah we have loved getting in contact with you all we have loved coming to you guys almost every single week for a year so thank you we cannot wait to be back in September we've got I mean we've already got plans we've got you have plans so so make sure yeah make sure you keep up with our socials because I'm even though we're not putting out an episode I'm sure we're still going to be posting yes oh yeah I stay on it I say pretty much on this though show and like to have said if you have any like questions comments concerns and a story to tell us a personal story or who whatever a scary tale hit us up please do so where can they do that oh definitely you know curious cousins okay at gmail.com or on Facebook on Instagram on Twitter DM us it'll be fine you can find us yeah you can and just tell them what to keep it keep it kooky and spooky bye