Podcast 1

Darlene and Aaliyah discuss Pastor Paul McKenzie's controversial actions in Kenya. McKenzie faced legal trouble for allegedly brainwashing his followers to give up everything, leading to his church's closure. Despite initial positive perceptions, McKenzie's charismatic leadership and alleged miracles raised suspicions. The discussion delves into McKenzie's upbringing, his church's growth, and the psychological factors behind his followers' blind trust. The conversation also touches on potential fraud and the influence of differential association theory on the crime. The theory suggests that crime can be learned from close individuals, shedding light on how McKenzie's actions impacted his followers. Hey, hello, hello. This is Darlene, I'm here with Aaliyah. We're gonna be talking about a pastor whose name is Paul McKenzie and he's self-proclaimed at that. His first church, Good News International Ministries, was in Malindi, Kenya. And this was before delinquency and crimes that happened in his next church in Shaka Hola, which is a forest in Kenya, which he started in 2019. So let's get a little bit into that. So he stopped his church in Malindi because he got into legal trouble. Isn't that so crazy? Yes. McKenzie was arrested because he was kind of brainwashing all these people that went to his church into getting rid of everything, taking their kids out of school, giving up their birth certificate, their birthright, getting rid of all these things that a regular human being would have. And it led to Kenya's government taking a step back and being like, whoa, what is this? What is this man doing? Which led to his legal allegations for the reason as to why he stopped his church in 2019. Okay, so a little bit about his church, well, within his church. So for a lot of people in the beginning, he was helping them out, whether it was with money or exorcisms, prayers, just he was a generous pastor. And he also, everyone was saying he had fiery sermons and that he was a charismatic leader. But something we did notice was that he refused to join fellowships of other pastors in Malindi. And he rarely quoted scriptures that would be considered normal or that you would think would happen inside of a church. Yeah, that's so interesting to see how he was this type of pastor that didn't really quote anything from the Bible. He didn't really go with what other pastors were saying, although there are theories out there that he was a more extreme version of other pastors out there that have also led into these cult types that Mackenzie was in. I've read about this one pastor in Australia that led another pastor into a cult, which ultimately happens to be what happens with Mackenzie. And also what happens with his people getting brainwashed when he does these miracles, quote unquote, for these people that are going to his church. Honestly, were there ever even actual miracles happen or was he just paying people so that people could come to his church? That's very, very interesting. I also thought he was able to be able to do those things because Kenya was very religious oriented. So for him to come in as a pastor, a lot of people, they were looking forward to churches and prayers and they were just very religious. So when they found a new church to go to, they even had a lot of teachers and police officers attending, and that's how he was able to grow his network and widespread his church. So I thought that was very, very important and played an important role on how he was able to brainwash a lot of the people. And also economically, he was providing or so-called providing. So that also helped out in his image and how he was able to engage and bring in other worshipers and was able to be able to be that person that was looked at as ideal and a great pastor and somebody to help toward helping him make it. So Jesus, yeah, especially with the fact that he had so many people starting to attend his church. I mean, who wouldn't wanna go to a church that was popular at that time? If I was in Kenya and stuff, I'd wanna go, I'd wanna go to this popular church, see what all the hype is about. And if I have a good experience, I mean, why wouldn't I stay? Why wouldn't I start to believe the things that this man is saying? And especially if he had cops and teachers there, I mean, it could lead to someone getting brainwashed and not even realize that they're getting brainwashed. They're just thinking, oh, this man knows what he's talking about. And why not listen to what he's saying, especially if he's somebody that's popular right now. And it makes me think about the fact that he was a self-proclaimed pastor and he was able to still open up his church. Why did nobody check his credibility on this? Why wasn't anybody on top of the fact that even though their religion was a big part, why did nobody decide to keep him in check before letting him open his church and stuff? I think that's partly because he didn't display none of the negative things or the negative aspects of what he was doing until after the fact of him closing down that church and then bringing a new church up. I think for me, a lot of the people didn't see that side of him. So he was kind of the ideal person he had on a mask to me. Like you wouldn't have known that he was doing those things or anything, unless it was happening to you or you was just in that predicament. So I just think a lot of it is because nobody, either nobody seen what was going on or nobody even had the chance to see what was going on. Yeah, I totally agree. In one of the readings from Pulitzer Center, the author goes to Kenya and he goes on to speak to one of Paul McKenzie's brothers and Paul McKenzie's brother mentions the fact that his brother was always into going to church. He was always the one that wanted to be there. That was like his whole life story except for the fact that he had a bad temper. But not many people knew about his bad temper because of the fact that he was so much into going to church and all this other stuff. And it was very little when this happened. He lost his temper to say it like that. And yeah, I mean, he was very involved in church when he was a kid. From the little information that we know, he was part of the choir and he was a Sunday school teacher. But other than that, we don't really know much about how he was raised or anything like that. So very unfortunate on that part. But yeah, I mean, you're somebody that's been seen as a person who's been going to church their whole lives and have little to no problem with 40s or with anybody to say that, that that could lead to why nobody, I guess, checked him and put him in his position, especially with the credibility. I think him engaging a lot within the church actually gives him advantage as well because he's experienced. He know how to talk to people. He would know what would make people want to attend his church because he was a teacher, well, a Sunday school teacher. So he has experience with teaching and talking about his religion and all of those types of things with people. That also connects to him being charismatic and good with people and good with his words because he's been around that. He know the things to say, the things you may wanna hear are the things that you might need to hear in the moment. Right, so it just basically leads to him being able to play this role and play it to the best or absolute best that he can. And nobody's gonna check him because of that. Like someone that's been under that spotlight knows what to say, what to do. Of course, it's gonna lead to nobody checking him and also ultimately the brainwashing of everybody, believing him and believing what he says. So we talked a little bit about how his legal troubles caused him to shut down his church in 2019 and how he started a new church in Shakuhola and how he supposedly all of the members that decided to go to his new church, picked up everything, sold everything, gave all their money to him. Wouldn't like on top of all the other stuff that he has been accused of, which we'll get more into, wouldn't that also be considered fraud against his part? I feel like it's 50-50 and I'm gonna tell you why. Because I feel like it's not fraud because they consented to it. Like they knew what they were doing, but I feel like it could be fraud because they didn't know the extent of what was going on. It was underlining factors that they didn't know about. So I feel like you can argue it both ways, but I feel like you definitely can say it was fraud. These people didn't know they were gonna get killed? Yes, and then they sold all that stuff in hopes that you was gonna lead them to a better life and stuff, but instead you led them to death off of the pretense of meeting Jesus. Yeah, starvation for your salvation. Yes, which is crazy to even think about. Like, no, starving yourself isn't gonna lead you to getting saved. But you sell all your stuff because of this guy, because he's done all these things in his old church, but now he has legal trouble, so I gotta sell everything to move, pick up, and go where he is at. And then you just end up dying? I feel like that, maybe to some extent, they could've been like, I'm not getting up. There's plenty of other churches here, you know? Yeah, but they trusted him. Exactly. And when you're with the church, you're with the church. It's your community, it's your family, and you treat them as such. So that was another part. They treated them as family. They probably looked at him as family. They thought he was gonna treat them like family and do what was best for them. So yeah, I just think he really took advantage of his power. And I also seen through one of our sources that he was power-hungry, like it was never enough. Okay, so we'll move on to the theory we connected to this crime and why we connected it to the crime. Okay, so the differential association's nine propositions. This theory basically has nine propositions. They all deal with the fact of crime being taught, and not only crime being taught, but it being taught by people that are closest to you by their actions, their words, and such things. And that's what all nine propositions are about. So how does the differential association's nine propositions deal with this crime? So for this crime, we see so much that goes on. I think there isn't just one theory that truly explains what goes on with everything that happened. But I feel like this is a really good one to talk about, especially because it's not just about Paul McKenzie, but because of the guards that are right below him and then his followers, which are at the lowest tier, and also the people that influenced McKenzie into this. So we mentioned a little bit about how he had other, how he paid attention, not really to other pastors, but he did steal ideas from them, and how some of those pastors even led to other cults, which is crazy to think that he's attached to other people that have also gotten into cults. It just makes you believe that he had to learn this somewhere, right? But also the fact with his guards, the way he, Paul McKenzie, was with his guards and the influence on them. I agree. So for the guards, basically, whenever his followers did something he did not approve of, like, for example, whenever they wanted to leave the compound or the church, whatever you wanna call it, they had to ask for permission. And if they weren't granted that permission and they tried to do it anyway, it would be consequences, and those consequences came from the guards. They would get beaten. If they was a female, they could get raped, or they could either get killed, or it could be a combination of those things. And it just started out as little as that of not doing something he approved of, and then it just turned into starvation for salvation. So basically, he wanted to starve the people so they could meet Jesus, but he wanted to start with the children and a woman. So he would use the guards to fulfill those actions as well. So if you would see one of the starving children and you could tell that they are weak and they're about to die, one of the first he said, once you've seen them and they left, they would never be seen again with the guards. So we can tell that they were killed. And from autopsies, we know that they were being strangled, beaten badly, just everything. And that was because of Paul. He told his guards to do those things. And then later on, he had made his followers do those things. So the followers, they were told to strangle some of their children or other followers, or even they were just beating them really badly and killing them as the guards were doing to them. So it was obviously learned through the guards and the guards learned that from Paul. So that's where we got the behaviors learned because as his followers, they weren't the ones taking action until they were forced to take action and to commit those crimes that they have previously never committed or probably even have known about. And that's just a little bit on why we believe that the behavior was learned and that the differential association, the nine propositions fit well. I wanted to point out number five of the propositions where it says the specific direction of motives and drives is learned from definitions of the legal code as favorable or unfavorable. I connected that to Paul because he told the guards to commit those crimes because they wasn't abiding by what he thought was okay or his norms and his goals and his morals. So he told them that behavior to take. So action was being taken against the followers and then the followers had began taking action as well. Right, also another one of those nine propositions, proposition number four speaks on saying the learning includes techniques of committing the crime and specific direction of motives, drives, rationalization, and attitudes, which is what happened here clearly. This was going on for a while, but he started his church in 2019. He didn't get arrested until last year, 2024, but that's five years of this ongoing stuff. And it just really causes the drive of the people to change from the beginning. As we mentioned, it didn't even start out like this. There was no guards at the beginning. There was no people getting killed or being told they can't leave the premises. And then it gradually got to this position. And what was the motive? The motive was call starvation to salvation. And that was the motive to why these people were getting killed as to the reason why they were held hostage as to the reason why these people were getting killed because of the fact that in McKenzie's eyes, these people were, he was trying to get these people to salvation through strangulation because they weren't listening to him or through starvation because that was the only way to get there. And his attitude changed towards them. He started becoming more aggressive the same way that his family saw at one point. He started becoming this aggressive person and now everybody else started becoming aggressive because of him. And everybody was starting to see the change because of McKenzie. And they started learning his ways because that's what he wanted. He wanted it to be that specific way. If people were running away, they were using different weapons against them because that's how McKenzie wanted it. Because McKenzie wanted them to either starve and do the way he wanted, or he just simply killed them, which is what he was doing, which is what is explained here in the nine propositions. I did want to point out the fact that McKenzie, he did not starve his soul. And I wanted to point out the fact that he saved the men for last. Yes, he said, the children go first, the women go second, and then the men are for last when it came to killing, which is very interesting to look at. Like there was some bias there. Yeah, I was about to say that. I wonder if it was like gender related because if you was going to just do that for their salvation, it shouldn't matter who goes first. Maybe it should be the men going first because I feel like he would not have killed off the men in the end, honestly, because I felt like he needed them. Like if you had the guards, I'm pretty sure they were men because they would be twice stronger, right? So I feel like he could have used them to actually benefit what he was doing and to keep it thriving and going. And I also wanted to say how he had a family. So one of the theories is that his family was living on the same compound as the followers. And I don't know if it was true or not, of course, because it's a theory, but I do think if they was living there, why did he not starve them as well or try to? Like he was just going to let them live. Like what does that say about you as a leader, as a pastor? Like you're doing these things for your followers, you're trying to do what's best for them, but you're not taking your own advice. Right, and not only that, there are also theories that he was feeding his guards too, you know, and giving them food, making sure their family were right. I mean, some people do say that the guards would say that they had to kill at least one person in their family, but mostly all their family was alive. They were eating good. They were all alive. Nothing was happening to them. And that just goes to show like how much of a BS storyline the starvation to salvation was. I agree. Because why would you not want to be the first one there? Why don't you want your family to get salvation? Or at least it's not you when you was trying to make sure everybody else got there. At least your family, yeah. Why wasn't your leader, why wasn't your wife, why wasn't your kid a part of it? That's very unprofessional even as a pastor because you're expecting them to follow and trust you based off your word. And your word doesn't apply to your family. Exactly. That just, that makes no sense. Especially if it's a quote unquote salvation, you would want the best for your family, not just for everybody else. And you'd want to be, I don't know, maybe you'd want to be a little bit selfish on it. But yeah, some of the guards were told that they would get paid more if they killed people. And that's crazy. In trial, McKenzie is not the only one that's being penalized. They have around 90 something other people that were the guards that ultimately killed other people. They're also being penalized for what is going on. And some guards say they didn't kill. Some guards say they did what they had to do. And then some guards were saying that, like we've mentioned that they were making the regular hostages kill people. Now, should the regular people be penalized for the people that they killed? Or should McKenzie just be the only one penalizing the guards? Okay, actually, I don't know because they were, I feel like they, it was no choice. I feel like they were forced to do it because they were forced to do everything else. They had to abide by his rules or it was nothing or you was just gonna be taken care of. So I feel like in that circumstance, they were forced to do it and there was no other option. I forgot the exact term for it, but you'll remember when we was talking about one of our chapters and we were saying, if somebody stole your kid and they told you, oh, you have to go rob a bank. That is, you wouldn't get penalized for that because they had your kid. You had no choice. I think that's one of those situations where they didn't have a choice, so they had to do it. So I feel like they shouldn't reap the consequences of those actions because they couldn't get away from it. It wasn't really like a, you can say no, because I feel like once they would have said no, they would have been next. What about those that were very brainwashed and really loved ones? Those ones, the people like that or the guards, they definitely should be taken accountable for their actions because. But how are you supposed to know which ones were and which ones weren't? What if they just lie their way out of it? It's very hard because it's like, I feel like the guards should be. The guards 100% because not only were they getting paid, but they were getting paid extra. I feel like the guards that didn't do it should be held accountable too because they was the ones most likely transferring the bodies and burying them. So you still knew what was going on and you still took a part in what was going on. Whether you wasn't the one that killed, you still took part in what was going on and you kept it going. Instead of going to authorities, I feel like for as much as you were scared, there was always something you could do. You could help these people escape, but you didn't. You could have killed the other guards. I mean, kill the bad people instead of the good people. Yes, something, a weak thing of, I wouldn't say the theory overall, but of the case is we don't know if the guards was able to leave the premises or not. Because I feel like that would be important because if they was, I feel like that gives them more of opportunity in the lead to get away or to provide some form of help for the other followers. So I feel like that's something that it lacks. Yeah, the information to know if the guards were able to leave. And if they were, I feel like even if they weren't allowed, I feel like every one of the guards that were guards should be 100% held accountable alongside Mackenzie. And I feel like it's a very difficult topic for just regular people that were being held hostage because some of them were extreme into Mackenzie's beliefs and brainwash, and others weren't. Others thought he was crazy. Others thought, and they were just forced to do these things because of the circumstances. But I agree with the fact that guards should be 100% held accountable alongside Mackenzie. And the people will, I mean, they could come clean. I feel like that's the only thing you could do at that point. Yep, and then it's like you already, the people that was able to manage to get away after everything, they were in poor condition still. So some of them still did believe in what he was doing, and some still didn't wanna go to the hospital or none of that because that was defying what he said and all of that. But I feel like after you came from a situation like that and you're still badly injured yourself, and you see all the effects that it had on everybody else, I feel like that should have been enough to open their eyes. Right. That then again, if you was, they might've had, this is totally off script, off topic, but what is it, Stocking syndrome? When you love your characters or you seem to start liking your kidnappers. I feel like it's kinda like that. Like even though they went through all of this and they've seen a lot of people die and even horrific deaths, like they didn't die peacefully, no. They died from just being tortured. It was just brutal. So I feel like it was one of those things, if you still believe in what he said. Yeah. I mean, yeah. They could have had that syndrome. Yeah. I didn't even think about that, but that's actually very true. Like what in what right mind would somebody believe that starving yourself to death is the only way to salvation? I mean, there's just so much that's so wrong with that because I mean, there's just so many religions out there. Which one is the one to believe, right? And I mean, I guess having a religion is good, but to the extent of basically killing yourself. I could understand if it was like a peaceful death. Like if you were saying we was gonna all drink poison, have a final supper and then die, and then meet Jesus, okay. But if you torturing me, making sure you have strict rules, I have to do this, I do this. I don't need to feel free. And then it's like, you're not, I don't feel trusted of you no more. Exactly. Even if you're committing crimes to do that, like raping me, raping others around me. And then my kids. Right, making me kill my kids, me killing other people. Like that's just, that's just to another degree. Do you wanna know another weakness of this case that we don't know if Paul killed people himself? Because are you just making everybody else do the dirty work? Right. Oh my God, that might be why he can't really be charged. Well, he's charged, but that could be a reason, a flaw in the case because there's no evidence, no DNA, no nothing that says that he actually killed people. So he would more so just be charged with like ordering to do it rather than doing it. So then I guess he could be charged for terrorism, right? And going into flaws and stuff, him and his lawyers have denied ever being in the forest with all these people. They state that the government is using him as a coverup for random people that just went missing and blaming it on McKenzie because he was in the forest and all these bodies were found in the forest. That the government is using this as a way to cover up for them killing people and making him the coverup story. There are many people in hiding who have testified about the events that happened in the forest and they all seem to talk about similar experiences in which McKenzie is denying. Do you think this actually happened or do you think that Kenya's government is actually using McKenzie as a coverup? I definitely think it happened because first of all, if they was pointing out about the church and stuff, they're not just gonna name a random place that correlates with somebody. And then it was very secluded and we know that he brought the spot. We know it ties to him and it's like why, there's no reason to lie about that. Like I feel like if you're, especially as a follower, if you're a follower and you're worshiping somebody or worshiping with their spreading around, you're most likely gonna be deep into it and you're gonna, like I said, it's a community. That's gonna be your community. You're not just gonna go to a random community and say, oh, this happened, this happened if it wasn't true. This is somebody y'all gave y'all money to, y'all all to, y'all trusted. I just don't think it could be false. I feel like if it was from the government standpoint, a lot of these things that we did learn, we would not have learned about. And at least not so early on, I feel like they would have did a better job in covering it up. And I also feel like they wouldn't have buried them so close to where they were just in case something were to happen or that it could be connected to them. So I just feel like a lot of the information we get on the case signifies like a specific person in the way he was going about being a path. That's what it gave off to me. Do you have any thoughts about? Yeah, I mean, I also feel like it is true. The way people have described it, especially in the Pulitzer Center, I really do feel like it's true. So the author of the Inside the Kenyan Code, A Star Bits Off the Death, the author is Carey Baraka. The author, he made sure to go to Kenya and he actually talked to a few people and got their point of view of what actually happened to them. Some of them didn't want this to be, some of these people wanted it to be anonymous because they're still scared that McKenzie is gonna get them killed. Now, a lot of the stuff that is said is very interesting and very, some of it is just like, who in their right mind would do this type of stuff? Right, it's not really a government type of. Who would come up with this and lie about stuff like this? How could a group of people come up with all of this correlating together and it being so traumatizing? Like, who in their right mind would do that? And there is religion based. Exactly, I don't think the government would do that. That's not an issue or topic that they would want to get into, I feel like, because it's so controversial. Now, I mean, we do have hate crimes and stuff based off religion, but I feel like it's nine times out of 10, it's not really from the government anyway. It's from civilians. Like, it's not really a government. Yeah, most hate crimes aren't. Yeah, now, that's kind of a reason I feel like it was able to be ongoing for such a long period of time. And I feel like nobody really said anything. Well, the part that nobody really said anything, I feel like some people attempted to because in one of the sources, it actually said that despite the warnings from former followers, they were still committing themselves to them churches. So I guess they probably heard about some of the things that were going on, but I don't think they believed it. And I think that's because they never seen it. And I think part of that is because if you commit yourself to his church and you start living under his rule, you were never to be seen again. You were either gonna be there following what he said or you was just gonna die. So I feel like that's another reason why it kept being ongoing because a lot of people probably didn't know where it was established at and they didn't know what was actually going on within his church. Right, and this church, we can call a cult now because that's what it was. It was a cult to get these people to basically give themselves up for the higher power, which is crazy. But most of these people went missing. Their families would look for them. Their families didn't know how to get in contact with them. And when they did, the people didn't want nothing to do with their family most of the time. Now, the people that were right in their minds and escaped and went back to their families. I feel like maybe nobody did believe them because it was such an outlandish thing about the stuff that happened to them is out of this world. Who would think of that? Who would think to do that to another human being? People won't believe you if you come saying, they're trying to starve me. If I didn't obey to that, they would kill me. Nobody's gonna believe that, especially if they're a pastor that people think is a good pastor, that people- That's loud, won't break up. That people, his credibility is good. Like nobody is- They have no reason to doubt. Exactly. So why would they be like, no, he's a good pastor. Why would he do something like that to you? Like, you're just lying to get some attention. Like, no, people weren't gonna believe these people. And honestly, that's so sad because it's like it could have been stopped before it even started, before it even got to the point where it got to where he has almost 200 children dead and he has around 500 people dead, which is crazy numbers, especially for them letting it happen for so long and having all these people dying. And then over a course of only what, like five years, 500 people? How fast would you kill and loss the people? Exactly. And the fact that they still say that there's still bodies there, five years to kill all these people. I feel like he had to kill them off in groups because if you starved all of them at the same time, they all would have died at the same time. Well, people can live longer than other people, but I feel like the timeframe would have been different. Like some people were living off of fruit. Like they was eating, they wasn't following the rules, but they were being real quiet about it. But not everybody was. So I wonder how like that whole interaction or that whole little process worked because I feel like they was just dying off at different times. And if they was dying off at different times, I feel like that gave them more opportunity too to be able to try to escape because you see what's going on and you could try to have a chance to escape. Yeah. But I feel like this is such a crazy case that we wouldn't have been able to know about this case if it wasn't for the media. And the media has been on top of this since it came out. Like still have reports from 2014 when everything was still going on. How do you think the media's role in this case helped or worsened this case and to the people in it and the portrayal of the case? I think it helps us when we're trying to sentence them. But I think it kind of worsens the case in the aspect of the audience reaction. Because when they hear about this, I feel like they're gonna focus on, well, why didn't nobody say anything? Why didn't nobody help them? How could they have not known for all this time? But rather than see what's going on and reflect from it, like, oh, you know, we see this big thing happen and it happened because of this, the lack of this. How could we stop this, all of that? So I feel like you get both, you get help with the case, but I feel like it also worsens it in the fact that the people's reactions could potentially affect the way that the sentencing should go. But that's just how I feel. How do you feel about the media's role? I feel like it did help with the case, but it could also worsen the people who were involved. Because although a lot of people died, a lot of people still live. And these people could be seeing this all over the media. And it could- They could get dead. Yeah. Everything. But meanwhile, you know, they probably have a choice. Right, and their trauma as well, like their trauma bond with that, like seeing that all the time and being asked for interviews or just even thinking about it because of the media. They might even end up committing suicide or still starving themselves. And it could worsen it for them, but it also helps with the case for other people to understand, wow, these things actually happen around the world. And it gets people thinking about how careful we gotta be because of things like this. Like just because you trust someone like that doesn't mean you can live your whole life. To devote your life to a church like that, like you never know what could happen. Like it could go south for all you know. And yeah, like it's just such a horrible thing to happen, especially with the media having to do with it. Like they could even switch it up and make it seem like it's something completely else. But thank God it was- They portrayed it the way they did because it could have gone completely different and be portrayed completely different. But at least they took honest look at it and made the bad guys the bad guys and made the victims actually the victims. And I feel like even if they were bashed, there's a lot that could show that it wasn't really their fault. And they can't really get blamed for the stuff that happened with McKenzie and the guards and all of that. And then a lot of the things with these crimes is we don't never know everything. We only know what we are told and what we can establish based off the sources we looked into. But there's still a whole nother side or a whole nother piece we don't get. And that's actually them being there physically and going through everything. We might not get the side of it. They might not be comfortable talking about it. So we only get a gist of it. So we can't really go based off of everything we hear because it's not everything. It's not the full story. Right, because we're not in these people's shoes. Yeah, we will never know the entirety of what had happened. So we're just going based off what we perceive and what we've seen or what we've heard. So a lot of the times it's kind of like we can make judgment off what we see or hear, but there's still a whole nother side we don't really get to know about. Yep, it's really like that. We'll never be able to understand what actually happened there unless we were there. Or why it happened. Or why it happened too, yeah. We're never gonna understand why Mackenzie did what he did, why the guards didn't stick up for the people. Or the real reason he did what he did. Right. Because I don't buy that starvation is for salvation because you wasn't even doing that yourself. No. Exactly, like how are you gonna do something, make people believe in it, but you're not doing it yourself. I mean, come on, there has to be another reason. He had to have some type of idea in his head. Exactly. That made him think about it. But at the end of the day, we're not gonna know. We're not gonna have all the facts about Mackenzie or all the guards or all the people that were there. We'll never get the full story unless, even like we can't even get the full story because of all the people that died, you know? Like they have their side of the story too. We don't know how they died, what happened to them, what made them die, what they say no to, none of that. Yeah, I mean, this is such a crazy thing that happened. And all we can do is give our little two cents on it, but we'll never be able to know. And I feel like just being able to talk about it and give ideas of what might have actually happened is the best we can do. And this is how it's gonna be for most of these type of cult things that go on. Another theory that we could have contributed to it was the subcultural theory by Cohen. It assumed that crime was a consequence of different subgroups in which deviant values and moral concepts dominate. Basically, the subculture would be the second church that Paul had built or put together. And well, now we call it a cult. Yeah, a cult is a subculture to, I guess in this case, the subculture would be the starvation for salvation. That is their cult. Their cult and their beliefs are based on starvation for salvation. They're in the subculture of Christianity. Christianity is something that's very big in Kenya, right? But there's different doctrines, you know, like they got Baptists and Apostles. They have Catholics, you know, all these type of other religions, all these other type of ways to think about it. And his was the starvation for salvation. And he made it into subculture by making all these people that were believing in him to go off, live on their own, and live the way that they believe they should be living. Even for the people that didn't wanna be there, he made them. He forced these people to live under this subculture. It was his norms, his goals, or it was necessary. Right, and it was those specific ways that you had to live in order for you to get your salvation, which was the ultimate goal, which is explained by subculture. You put all of these goals and that things for you to reach your end goal, which in this case is salvation, right? And we can see how that plays into this theory of them leading to that. And also, it can also become a strain theory. And strain theory talks about how losing all of your alliances to everything else can lead to you to start acting in these criminal behaviors. For them, they had to leave everything. They had to leave the rest of their family. They left schools, the government. They weren't part of anything except for the church. He weakened their bonds for him to be able to take over and for him to be able to brainwash them. Exactly, and these people started to believe it. And the guards started to believe him too. And since they had no other bonds, what could they do? All they could do was follow his lead and listen to him and do nothing else. And that's what ultimately led to all of this. Well, this was a fun ride, guys. I'm going to leave you all off with a joke that they had said in one of the sources. In Kenya, there is an old joke that if you lose a job, start a church or a charity. But unlike them, do not be like them. We will be out. Don't start a cult now. Yes, we will be out, and that will be it for us. We are the Fit for the Hot Cases, Code X, and we are out. Bye. Bye.