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Welcome to our Heels in the Hierarchy podcast, where we discuss experiences and challenges faced by working women today. Join us as we explore a range of topics from navigating career advancement to balancing work and personal life without stepping on toes. Are you ready to record our first episode called Dipping Your Toes into Heels in the Hierarchy? I am. Okay. We should actually explain what we're doing and say, hi everyone, I'm SJ and I'm Peggy. Maybe we should actually explain what we're doing and why it is, I suppose, okay? Why it is. It's that whole point, isn't it? We want people to be earing into a conversation. We want people to be curious about why they want to listen about what we've got to say.. I worked in factories when they first met, and when I left school, I started working as a secretary in the same factory that my dad worked in, and he said, people will always need secretaries. That's a very informal statement, isn't it? Secretaries. They always need secretaries. And I thought, well, that makes sense. I'll go and be a secretary then. So I went and did. And I worked there and did my training there and everything, and I was probably there about three or four years, and then I left, and I got a range of secretarial jobs over the years. And I didn't stay in any of them very long, and I realized that I was seeing them all as the same job. It was basically the same job in a different organization, and it dawned on me over time that it just wasn't fulfilling, and so I then started to look for something else. I then got a job working in IT as an IT help desk operator, which is quite funny, because actually I know almost nothing about IT, and I've forgotten everything that I learned. But I sort of started working in IT, and I went up to my boss at the time, and I realized we had quite a few calls come in that IT people would describe as user error. So basically the user was having problems because they just didn't know what they were doing. So I went to my boss and I said, why don't we do some training in how to use IT, which would then make the whole thing more efficient, and then we could get on and do more with our time. That's the proper job. Yeah. And he said to me, well, if you want to do that, you could go and get a job in HR and training then. So I thought, thanks for that. Really an endorsement. I will. So I got a job there with the HR department, and my career then has basically been HR learning and organizational development, which is about employee engagement, culture change, and lots more besides that. I'll go into another time. And I've worked across both public and private sectors. That's your kind of acquittal top door of career today, I suppose. So I think what's quite nice is that all of these experiences is what has shaped your thought processes and elements about what we're going to be talking about. And the stories will be coming out, which is what I'm curious about, about, you know, people say statements, but they still have an impact. I mean, in that sense, for you, that creates help, but actually, there's so many things in that that were so, not only appropriate, but just shaming and resenting and just putting you in your place, isn't it? Yeah. And I think there's so much in that. And obviously, we'll be talking about all sorts. But I think there's a good idea about that element, about why you're passionate about what you're doing, and why you're still doing it, and why you want to be able to continue to educate and have curated conversations, and be able to have amazing conversations with ordinary women, and why we're doing what we're doing now, isn't it? Yeah. But I think in terms of the focusing, I think it's just nice for us to be actually getting it done and doing that, I think, on the contra, on the opposite spectrum to you, because I didn't, I didn't really go straight into work. So my background is that I was brought up in a missionary family, which means that your parents don't have a job, but they're seen in the small eyes, working for the church, and they go around and support the community and other people in the church that's in the organization they're a part of pays their salary. And so for me, that was completely normal. But me and other family members talk often about what shifted, because I'm not like that in terms of my career and what I want to do. But I wonder whether that comes from the ethics that I was brought up on, it's about helping people and understanding where people come from. And my parents always mirrored that in their work in terms of what they believed in, and actually now I'm a psychotherapist. So I always think, oh, I wonder whether that is the roots of, it's about people, but obviously mine went into a career in a different directory. But I also grew up in different countries. So I grew up in France, and so English, which is really interesting and weird to say out loud, is that English wasn't my first language, even though you would never be able to say that or hear that in my voice, because it's been a long time since a child. And certainly I was doing that, but when I came to England, I didn't have that as my initial language. I couldn't speak a word of English. So it has helped me to see things from a different perspective in terms of how our culture, when I came into the country to where we are now, essentially more expressive and more open and, in some ways, to wanting people to express their culture, where it absolutely was the opposite when I came. And therefore, why don't have that language anymore, which is such a sad thing. And it's definitely one of my biggest regrets to not be able to speak a different language. But that's another story. But that's kind of a little bit about me, about why people, why that's kind of been my roots a little. And so that's always kind of went from roles where I was working with people, because that's something that I was always seen as important, always saying, that's your focus. So I'm curious, really, about, obviously, that was my experience as I came into this country. And that's what got me into that. And in education, it's completely different, I suppose. What was yours like, in terms of the education system? Did you go to school, educate, go to degree? No, no. So I went to secondary modern school, as it was called then. And I left school at 16 with some qualifications, but none of them amazing. I was a sort of middle-of-the-road kid. It was only the people from the posh families who went to university. So I knew I wasn't going to go to university. And that was really interesting, because as much as I knew, and I didn't know how intelligent you were, that was never going to be your path. Yeah. And I just did air quotes, which, of course, is ridiculous, because nobody can see that. So that kind of goes back to my point about people make assumptions, right? Because, yeah, they make assumptions about my voice and your voice. But actually, the culture and the landscape of education has changed completely in our lifetime, with me doing air quotes. But it has, doesn't it? Like, the education, my experience of what my family and what they would have done in school and things was completely different. Because, again, you couldn't even go to... It wasn't a thing for young adults to go to university. You were trained to work. It was only the posh kids who could do that. So what was that like? Well, it was odd, because it didn't... As much as it was the posh kids who went to university, and I knew that I wasn't posh enough to go to university, I believed I wasn't bright enough to go to university as well. Okay. There was always, like, this voice in my head that it was kind of like, well, okay, the posh kids go, but why them and not me? And although my parents were always very supportive and never said that there was nothing I couldn't do, they didn't know enough to know that there was stuff that I could do. Right. So they didn't know that I could go to university. Right. They never considered it as a possibility for me. So we never spoke about it. And it was only ever in my head. So I never... You never told your parents? You never kind of went, why not? No. I just... A given. A kind of a given, but with a hint of sadness about it. So it wasn't necessarily even a sense of exclusion or anything, but I just felt that that wasn't something that I could do. A lot of people assume that I've gone to university, and I subsequently got a university qualification, which we'll talk about another time. My mum was determined, as much as she understood within her world, to better herself. And she felt that the two best ways to achieve that were good table manners and speaking eloquently. So I was encouraged not to drop my teeth and to pronounce things properly. And I also became quite an avid reader. So my language skills are there because of those drivers. What do you think of that now? I know it's a completely different topic. We talk about culture, but just in the short time, try and even explain to people who we are. Because our stories are so long, right? Because we are experienced, and you have different pivots in your life, but things that change, and that makes you who you are. But just in those few things, your mum's insight was around those two things. If you could be this, or present yourself as this, then society would accept you as that. Yes. So what do you think of that now, knowing how the world is now, and the culture is now? I can certainly say that's not what I sound like. It's, you know, pronunctities, and we do have good manners, so to speak. But that's not where, I suppose, our culture is, in terms of, because we always say, probably, well, as long as you work hard enough, you can do whatever. What is your thinking? Are you grateful for that? I'm grateful for it because I think, without realising it, it gave me a degree of drive and ambition. It certainly allowed me to fit in anywhere, and I've been able to hold my own. And I've got friends from all sorts of socioeconomic backgrounds, and what have you, and I feel that I can be authentic in any of those situations. I do think that it is still the case that people put on masks. Yes, they have to. So I think that even though the masks that I have, I still think, even though my masks are different, I think people do, women in particular, do still mask, in some way or another, in order to gain acceptance. That's another episode, I think. That's such a good little episode. I mean, actually, me being a psychotherapist, we use masks all the time, and I don't want anyone to see anything, so there's a lot in there. But do you think, in a way, it's been an advantage for you, the way you speak, the way that you can present your way in terms of the corporate world, and get roles, And that kind of keeps you advantaged a little bit in the bias kind of thing? Yes, because if I didn't have the ability to hold my own in any circumstance, in particular in the era that I grew up in, I wouldn't have been accepted into those environments as readily. I'd have to have worked harder to get that acceptance, and probably given up sooner. So people make assumptions about me because I talk posh, and they make assumptions about my intelligence because I talk posh, and with a not-quite-received pronunciation, but with a county's London-ish accent. So that gives me an in where I wouldn't have had that. And I think if I hadn't had those openings and that acceptance, I may well have ended up in a factory environment, frustrated as hell, because I kind of knew there was something wrong with not thinking about the opportunity to go to university. I'd have been working in a factory, or as a dinner lady like my mum, going out of my mind, because I would know instinctively that I had unfulfilled potential. It's so weird, because I think I'm on the opposite spectrum, where I grew up, be I am dyslexic, but not knowing that I was dyslexic. So my perception of the world in education was almost the opposite. It wasn't an opportunity, because the university was open to everybody, but it was very much around the stories that you're hearing and what you tell yourself. So for me, it was very much, I'm not good enough, I'm not clever enough, because that was what was told to me for education. But I think it's potentially, looking back now, around the language changes, not understanding how to learn a new language. English is a very hard language if you don't understand it, and you don't have the proper grammar explanations. I think that kind of contributed, not knowing I had dyslexia. And yet, as soon as you've been able to adapt, because I've always been around so many different cultures, ethnicities, and that was part of my upbringing, and that's where I became dragged around. So you go wherever your parents were going, and around the country, you're exposed to so much. So you adapt really quickly, because you don't know when you're going to go to the next place. So you adapt, make friends, move on, adapt, make friends, move on. And I think my voice has probably changed, because I can adapt to my voice really, really quickly, depending on what my situation is, which I think has made an advantage. But also, it makes me laugh, because I say that, and then actually I went to drama school, and I'm a terrible accent. I can't do accents the same way. But in social situations, I think that's the key, isn't it? Being able to make people feel comfortable, being able to relate to people, but being aware that people always make assumptions, all the time. So that made me more aware of people's assumptions. I never thought about going to university, because I was always told, you're not good enough, you can't do it. So I was always thinking, well, I'm absolutely done, I'm never going to be as good as my siblings. And that shifted when I saw the barriers, or we talked about barriers, and I was thinking, never, I've failed. And I thought, well, actually, I really want to do what I'm doing. And I was doing drama, and I was doing a lot of stuff with youth and teenagers, and realising, OK, well, I want to be able to help that, but then someone said, well, why don't you think about doing therapy? Why don't you think about doing that? And I thought, well, I can't do that, I went to drama school, but I'm not clever enough to do a degree. And then the level was Masters, and I was like, well, I definitely can't do that. And then I mentioned that, why not? Mainly because I realised, well, I love helping people, but I also want to get to the root cause of what happens to people, why they don't behave. Because I was thinking, similar to you, it's not necessarily about the assumptions, it's the behaviours behind that. So people see the behaviours, they make their assumptions, and they make an idea of what somebody is. Rather than going, OK, they're my assumptions, but they may not be true, they have a thought process, that's about my opinion. And then people who feel that there is no opportunity given to them, that people aren't talking to them about opportunities. I was shocked that somebody saw value or saw my potential. I only saw what people told me, and it was a big difference, I think. I was very clear to people, I knew what I was doing, but I never pushed that education barrier. And it wasn't until I actually did go and did my Masters, that's when I got my diagnosis of dyslexia, which then made all sense, about acting the learning style that I'm on, not me, not my brain, not the way that I think, not the way that I see people. But I achieved that, and I think that was one of my biggest achievements, because the university never taught somebody like that before, who had never been able to read the way that I'd been able to read, in terms of, like, dramatical path. It was written, and it was, you know, topology or whatever. And I think that was my biggest learning curve, of going, keep pushing those barriers, you know, why not? Why not be able to prove that you can do it? And there was no people pushing you, yes, you can do it, and no champions, because it was different, I think. Whereas, I think that's another reason why, in the role that I've had, and as a therapist, I'm always curious about, well, who's your champion? Are you a champion yourself? Are you able to think about who you are? What have you, who's your inner child that you've had? Are you still sticking on to that? And I'm wondering now, but it is interesting about our perceptions of ourselves, and actually how does that shape us? How does that education shape us? Everyone's got stuff, and that plays out in the workplace, and it also plays out in the relationship. And sometimes people aren't strong enough to be able to be curious about what's going on for someone. They just want a quick fix. But unless you understand what's going on behind the behaviour, you're just managing something that's really difficult, because it's not being sorted. I think that's why I've gone the route that I have, in terms of wellbeing and psychotherapy and drama therapy. So, I've covered quite a lot, I think, today. In terms of that, is there anything else you think that's important? Just a little bit more about the why, and why the subject matters, really. So, we both have a curiosity about the way people are, and kind of going back to that. Am I really good enough? You know, I wasn't good enough to go to university. Am I good enough to be a manager and a leader? So, like imposter syndrome? Massive imposter syndrome. You know, when we started to talk about the idea, I wanted to help other people that had similar experiences to me, to know that those fears and concerns are natural, that they don't have to be normalised, and they don't need to be accepted by us. So, what sort of things, what's your sort of why behind it? Well, when you were just talking, I was like, oh yeah, we are very similar, but also on the opposite spectrum, which is why it's so useful. Because I think, for me, it's all very much about the behaviour. It doesn't really matter where you are. People are people, and people are complex. So, even if you're a leader, your personality, your experience, what you bring, your perspective is always played out. So, when I've been in those situations, it's always fascinating to me, how does the interaction happen with teams? There's always complex dynamics at play. Sicknesses always happen when people leave the job. It's not necessarily about the job, it's all around the management or the leadership team. And we're doing a lot of work around the leadership and what makes a good leader. But in reality, we can have all the principles, but if someone isn't able to self-reflect, have self-awareness, if they're not able to have difficult conversations, that, to me, is what really makes a great leader, about owning who you are, knowing who you are, but actually still wanting to, not necessarily improve, but be okay with who you are. Often, you talked about masking earlier, the behaviours I've witnessed is people overcompensating or hiding certain behaviours. And that comes out as micromanaging, insecurity, you have a lot of conflict in the workplace. And then you're spending all this time and grubbing it because people are not necessarily having good position or having good support or not being able to have that coaching that people need to understand themselves. So I think, although my experience has been similar, I've been exposed to a lot of leadership and I've been a leader, I think it's more around my fascination is hearing people's stories, connecting people to understanding what makes people tick, who people are. At Quilter, there are so many levels that connect with women that are still not really talked about and getting meaty. And that's what I'm interested in, is having that ear with them to really deep conversation about, oh, is buying still going on? Or, why is the pay gap still going on? Or, how are we allowed, how can we balance all this stuff that we're asked to balance? And yet, an area that isn't, there's so much in what we talk about and what our guests talk about, which fascinates me. And I want to encourage other people, I suppose our listeners, to think about the, oh, isn't it great for them situation, this kind of messaging. It's actually about opening opportunities for people who can't necessarily say the things they want to say. You talk about CB in your mind, but having someone talk about those discussions, it's really that, oh, okay, I'm so glad that's not just me. Or, oh my goodness, they've been able to do it. And I think they're the conversations that I would want to listen to, because I actually didn't have any easy career journey to where I am. I probably had to really get with grip and fight my way through. But I think that's who I am. That doesn't mean that's how everybody is. But I think it opens the door to conversations that are interesting, but also not so easy to talk about. And actually, because we talk about workplace, particularly, and balance, that's why we have the season ends that we do. That's why we want to make sure that it's about stuff, not about the person and what's going on. And I think that, for me, is where there's so much to talk about, which I'm really excited about. Yeah. And we've got a huge number of topics. We've got some really exciting guests. So it's not going to be super duper polished. We're not going to be interviewing the Chief Executive of the World Bank. Although if they want to come on the podcast and be authentic about their life outside of work. Yes. But it's going to be authentic conversations. It's going to be you eavesdropping a conversation on a bus or on a train of people talking about real issues and real experiences of either aspiring to a leadership or a people management role or being in that role at the moment of the lumps and bumps of career changes and life as a woman and balancing everything and hopefully not only interesting, authentic and engaging, but fun as well. Yeah. I think you smashed it at the back. I think the only thing to say is, yeah, I hope you've enjoyed dipping the toes into the Heels of the Hierarchy episode today. Obviously, please follow us, share a like, let people know that we're around and listen in next time. Listen next time. Where is our master? Thanks for joining us today on Heels in the Hierarchy with S.J. and Pegsy. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please spread the word and share it with your work bestie, your mentor or anyone with their heels in the hierarchy. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and if you could spare a moment to leave us a review, it helps our other ambitious women find our community. Find us on LinkedIn and Instagram for more content and behind the scenes glimpses. Until next time, keep your heels high and your standards higher.
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