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The podcast episode is about childhood traumas and how they impact adult relationships and marriages. Childhood trauma can be subjective and is determined by how a child interprets an event. It can include toxic relationships, substance abuse, domestic violence, and more. Childhood trauma has long-lasting effects on individuals, impacting their relationships, mental and physical health. Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) increase the risk of physical and mental illnesses. Childhood trauma can manifest in adult relationships through low self-esteem, trust issues, attachment styles, self-sabotaging behavior, codependency, and people-pleasing. All right, all right, well, good evening, ladies, good evening, how are you all doing today? Great, great. Wonderful. Yes. Good. Good. All right, so tonight is the launching of She Speaks. The podcast tonight's subject is childhood traumas and how they affect our adult relationships and marriages. I am Sharia, also known as the Pretty Rich Nurse. I am a registered nurse by trade in school for MP. We also have Tammy, who is a certified trauma coach. We have LaShawna, the mind alchemist, and we have Nellie, the creator of the Soul Kitchen. Did I say it right, Nellie? Is it Soulful Kitchen or Soul Kitchen? Because I want to get it right. And Sisters With Invisible Scars and the Soul Kitchen, yes. Yes. Yes, Sisters With Invisible Scars also. So tonight we're going to start with a panel of questions. And the first question that I have for you ladies, and you all feel free to answer them, how would you define childhood trauma? Well, I know, I can go ahead and go. One thing I always like to emphasize that trauma is highly subjective, kind of like what they teach us when it comes to pain. Two children can literally go through the same exact situation and one may be traumatized, one may not be. A lot of that is determined more so about how the child interprets the event and less about the trauma itself in a lot of cases and whether or not the child had tools to help navigate those traumatic feelings. Because initially I was of the mindset that, oh, okay, it's definitely sexual abuse, it's definitely mental abuse. But the truth of the matter is it doesn't have to be either. It can be toxic relationships between the parents or a caregiver and they may be involved in a toxic or traumatic relationship. It can be substance abuse in the home. It can be domestic violence in the home. And none of that even has to be geared towards the child itself. So it's all about how the child regulates emotionally as to whether or not it's going to be considered a traumatic event for that individual child. Okay. Agreed. Agreed. This is Nellie. To piggyback off of that, I mean, if it's exposure to actual or threatened death or serious injury or sexual violence, whether it's – and you can run the gamut on this, right, so bullying. Like you said, witnessing domestic violence. So you can go through it either yourself or witnessing an event where another person is going through that particular traumatic event or learning that a traumatic event occurred to a close family member. That can also be traumatic. I have children who are in their 30s and recently found out that one of my children was sexually abused as a child. And you can imagine as a mother how devastating that can be because you start to question if that can be traumatic for me as a person standing on this side of it because it's so close, right? But, you know, bullying, neglect, natural disasters. I was in a tornado when I was a child and I promise I won't drive in the rain, right? Right. So you can really run the gamut on this and the list really is not exhaustive. But to your point, Shawna, it is about how it impacts that child. Absolutely. So I just want to give a little bit more on childhood trauma as well. You know, from my perspective as a licensed clinical social worker and a traumatologist because that's what I do every day all day. So I deal with a lot of adults who are victims of childhood trauma. So childhood trauma is... I'm sorry. Go ahead, Shannon. Okay. All right. Childhood trauma is one of the most profound and devastating forms of trauma there is. And the reason being is because it happens at such an early age. And it has such a long-lasting effect on the lives of individuals, which it can impact the way they think about themselves, others, and also impact their worldview. So it impacts their cognitions altogether. It impacts their relationships, their ability to have emotionally stable relationships. It also can impact their mental and their physical health. We call them ACEs, Adverse Childhood Experiences. And so the more of those that we have, Adverse Childhood Experiences, the more that they impact our lives, okay? So they can, you know, it can range from anywhere from emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse. It can be emotional neglect, physical neglect. It can also be household challenges such as domestic violence, parents that have substance abuse, mental illness, you know, divorce, incarcerations of a parent, and also the most profound is childhood sexual abuse, which is the most profound. So the more of Adverse Childhood Experiences, the more of them that we have, the more that we're prone to certain things, that physical illnesses, emotional illnesses. With ACEs, three times the level of lung disease is found with four or more of those ACEs, 11 times the amount of intravenous drug users, 14 times the number of suicide attempts, four times people are likely to begin sexual intercourse as young as 15, 4.5 times more likely to develop depression, and also two times the level of liver disease. So basically we have to understand how childhood trauma impacts a person's life. You know, 67% of our nation or the population at least have one Adverse Childhood Experience, and the more of them that you have, the more the risk for physical, mental, emotional, and neurological concerns. Yes. Wow. Wow. That is something. That is really astounding when you hear those numbers and you think of how many people exist, and then to hear 63%. That is something. Yes, it is. It is. So think about that, though. Also think about the amount of people who have more than one trauma. We call it trauma. Yes. So think about, you know, there may have been people who have what we call acute trauma, which is, you know, one incident, maybe something like a car accident or 9-11. They may have experienced that or Hurricane Katrina. But then think about the chronic trauma that they have, you know, those everyday experiences of being in dysfunctional households, you know, that then turns into the complex trauma, which is that, you know, that childhood abuse and, you know, things of that nature, sexual abuse. CSA is what we call it, childhood sexual abuse and all of that. So the more of that, you know, the more complex our lives become, the more that we go with those traumas, with them being untapped, the greater we develop maladaptive coping mechanisms, and we just become more skilled at developing maladaptive coping mechanisms until we decide to go and get some help. Yes. Yes. That's heavy. That's heavy, Tammy. That's heavy. Yeah. Okay. The next question I have is, how do you see childhood trauma manifesting in adult relationships? Oh, I'll go with this one. In my own life, full disclosure, I'm 50, I'll be 52, but as a young adult and even as in my childhood, up until probably in my 30s, my self-perception of myself, you know, self-esteem being formed when you're young through direct interactions with our caretakers and health relationships with parents where the caretaker will provide healthy boundaries, appropriate feedback. But when a child is abused by an adult, whether it's your direct caretaker or someone within the family unit or a friend of the caretaker, in my instance, that guidance kind of becomes twisted. So, for example, if a child is consistently gaslighted, tends to never trust their own perception as an adult, right? So that was something that I grappled with. Also attachment style, the way that I bonded with my partner, I've been married and divorced, and there were some things that were triggering for me in the bedroom, in our marriage bed. So I think that there are so many ways that it can manifest. You know, in my particular situation, I can see that intimacy and vulnerability were a big issue for me in intimate relationships. And whether it was familial or, you know, friendship or especially intimate relationships in my partner, you know, with a partner, definitely manifested. And then I was a chronic people pleaser. I found myself not feeling worthy unless I was doing something for you, right? And so that's where I found my value. And I would set myself on fire trying to keep people warm. And that, for me, was, you know, once I got into therapy and kind of started to understand why my behaviors were the way they were and why I was, you know, a person that you could walk on eggshells around, so to speak, or a walking landmine, you know, that's how it manifested in some of my adult relationships in my 20s and 30s. So, yeah. Wow. And see, now my – and then my experiences – well, it's weird because my experience for me and the things that I went through caused a people pleasing in some instances, but in other instances it was self-sabotaging behavior where immediately anything that went wrong, anything that happened that wasn't ideal, any argument automatically for me was grounds to walk away. It's not going to work. You know what? You get it. You get it since – yeah. So, yeah, because what happens normally, and, you know, myself being a victim of childhood trauma very early on, which impacted my relationship severely, what I find is our boundaries are either really, really rigid or they're really, really porous, meaning that we either – just like LaShauna was just saying – either, you know, we walk away from things or we become severely codependent, you know. Yeah. You know, like – what's your name? I'm sorry. Nellie. Nellie? Nellie. Nellie. Okay, Nellie. Right. Just like Nellie was saying, we either become very codependent and then there's that codependency and also that self-betrayal that comes about because, you know, a lot of times we self-sabotage. So, you know, we'll stay in an abusive relationship, you know. Like you say, you'll set yourself on fire to keep somebody else warm. Yeah. You know, we also, you know, go with that codependency, that bankrupt mentality, you know, that if we try harder to meet our partner's needs, you know, that our partners will see the value in the words, which often leads to developing a pattern of self-betrayal because, you know, the harder we try, the more we give, the more bankrupt we become. Yes. And it does not prompt other people to do. So, you know, that's where it becomes that those boundaries are porous because we're doing everything, we're trying to be everything, we're trying to become everything, or they're very rigid. We've got distrust, we've got fear, you know, which leads into emotional unavailability, you know, issues with intimacy and things of that nature. I think that with what you said, Shawna, was that that is absolutely something that I can add to how it has manifested in my own life. The porous and the rigid in different instances and situations. I think in my intimate relationships, I have self-sabotage and it has become that rigid at the sight of their shoe drop, right? Yes. Yes. Immediately. Immediately. But I'm looking at the physical, giving you limited access to me at that point, right? Yep. And that was me. Especially when I was a child, I was the people pleaser. I just wanted everybody to be happy. Like you said, if I had to set myself on fire, if I had to let people stand on top of me to get ahead, whatever was necessary for the sake of someone else's happiness, I took my happiness from making other people happy. And in turn, like Tammy said, I was just emotionally, spiritually, mentally, just absolutely bankrupt. And I was just so depleted. And then I got older, started learning more about spiritual things, really got involved in church, really got taught about spiritual things. And in that, I began to get an understanding of my own worst, my own that, hey, you are human too. You have things to offer and bring to the table. And I was literally told in church, in the middle of service, everybody is not yours to give to. And literally the pastor stopped the service and said, from now on don't you give to another person without praying first, because everybody is not yours to give to, and a lot of people are using you and taking advantage of you because of the heart that you have. And a light bulb came on, but then it like it pushed me because there was no balance. It pushed me all the way to the other extreme where Serena can tell you, if I even got an inkling of a notion that you might not be it, I would immediately, I'd go to your job and tell you it was over. I wouldn't even give you the studio of a dinner, of a phone call. You couldn't even come over and talk about it. Look, I'd go to your job and tell you it was over. It was no conversations to be had. You couldn't run after me and try to persuade me, because you couldn't leave your job. I'd stop you on your terms and say, hey, can I holler at you for about a minute? Yeah, this ain't going to work. And I didn't walk off. And I think I left them and Sharia confused because she's like, oh, well, where's, no, honey, he gone. Absolutely. I mean, well, you know, and that, I could definitely agree with that. I mean, because, you know, relationship after relationship and, you know, talking about, you know, how, how we, we have the ability to totally disconnect that gift of goodbye. You know, you know, people will be asking me, well, where's Marjorie, who, what, what, oh, child, you know, I don't know. You know, look, that was over before it even began. You know, because of, you know, because of that hypersensitivity, you know, you know, you know, having that wall up and, you know, keeping those walls up, that fight, flight, that, that, that freeze and that thaw, that fight, that, that flight. That was definitely one of my trauma responses. I'm leaving you. I don't care. Marry, oh, it's less than six months. Oh, let me, let me ignore this. You know, let me, listen, you know, no, you won't even find this on the book because you're not going to, you know, that's just how hypervigilant I was. No, man. Yes. And I feel bad for my friends because you got the boom, bastard side eye for even bringing their name up again. I was like, what? I have got many side eyes. Yeah, I'm like, he gone. And, and, and it's just, it's been that way for so long because I think it's just like, I do agree with you. It is definitely a trauma response because you know what? If I can, if I leave you before you leave me, that's better. Because you know what? Then when those feelings rise up of the loneliness and all that stuff and wanting to roll around on the floor, it's like, why God, why? And you know what? It's, it's different. It hits different when I can say, well, no child left him. He wasn't me. He didn't fit the script at versus you leaving me. And it doesn't even matter if I had plans to leave you first. If you left me before I could leave you, I still felt like I was left holding the bag and like, and then I have to shake myself and say, Hey, you was already planning on leaving him too. What are you mad about? He did you a favor. Now you ain't got to be the bad guy. Yeah. Yeah. With respect to this, where is trauma bonding? Okay. So let's talk about trauma bonding because everyone is getting trauma bonding wrong. Right. Okay. Yes. So I want to bring some clarity to trauma bonding. Okay. Before you touch on that real quick. Yes, ma'am. Can I speak to the question that I didn't get a chance to answer about, you know, Trauma affecting our adult life. And me and Shauna was speaking on this. We did a quick live on Tik TOK earlier and it went way over what we intended to, but we ended up talking about multiple things. And I think for me, my situation is kind of like yours, Tammy. It's like childhood early, early on. Right. And so I find myself in these different situations. I'm going to say that. And just feeling like, I think I was told so much, or if you say something, this is going to happen, that's going to happen. So you feel like a failure. You feel like, well, what did I do to deserve this? And so as coming up, the things that I have to fail marriages. Right. And so even though I know that I tried my best, I applied, you know, I asked for counseling and different things in both marriages and they still failed. I felt like a failure. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, dang, I've gone through things all my life. When does it stop? You know, when is somebody going to truly, truly love me because now I feel like nobody is really capable of real love. I've actually told myself that, that nobody is capable of 100% love. And I think I've deemed myself, I don't know if it's me deeming myself not worthy of receiving real love or true love. Can I add to that too? Uh-huh. Okay. Yes. I look at everything that comes out of a person's mouth most of the time is that you're lying to me. Or you're just saying what you think I want to hear. And it's because of the people that I was supposed to be safe with. In childhood, I wasn't safe. And then I got into adult relationships, and you were supposed to protect me, but you ended up being an abuser on some form. It may not have been sexual, but mentally you were abusive to me, just in how you treated me, how you spoke to me. And so it makes me feel like I've cried for three days, y'all. Right? So I couldn't tell where the emotions were coming from. I can honestly say the only man that I ever had in my life that protected my heart was my daddy. That's it. And he's long gone. He's gone. He's gone. Right? I'm gone. I was the child that wasn't supposed to be, excuse my expression, you know what I mean? I was the child that was going to break his heart because he put more time into me. Right? So the only person that protected me is now I'm not here. Right. So in my lonely states, I sit and I think, and so his birthday would have been Saturday. And it really hit home with me. Like I really, y'all, I felt so lonely, and I felt like the two people that I created this bond in front of God with, that failed. They didn't protect me. You know what I mean? Right. And so it has truly affected my adult life. And like Sean said, I remember going to a revival with my first husband. He didn't even have a clue what was going on, what had happened in my past. And I'll never forget, we were in a tent. And if any of y'all been up in a tent before, you already know what kind of anointing that is. Yeah. So the pastor called me up and he said, your past traumas are affecting your now marriage. And I couldn't figure out how. So I could sit here all day and point the fingers at him, right? But I don't know what I contributed to that because I was traumatized. Yeah. Because we feel validated to be victims, right? You know, if you're a victim, you are validated to feel that way because, of course, it happened to me. And so, of course, I'm angry. Of course, I don't forgive. Of course, I don't trust. Of course, you know, I'm not going to let anyone get close enough to me to hurt me anymore. I'm not going to love like this again. But what does that say to the authentic vulnerability that you're supposed to have so that you're supposed to be able to receive true, authentic love? Right. You know, so we feel validated to stay in these places, these traumatized places, not understanding what we're doing is robbing ourselves of the healing that we need in order to be able to receive what it is that we desire. Settling is a trauma response. Right. Okay. It is definitely a trauma response. It is that fond response. We have fight, we have flight, we have freeze, and we have fond. When we settle in a space and in a place that does not serve our true, authentic self, it is still responding to trauma and it is not healing properly. My God. When we keep the walls up and we say we'll never be vulnerable again, we'll never trust again, no one will ever love us like this or, you know, treat us the way that we want to be treated. We are settling to remain in places that are traumatizing spaces that will keep us from ever experiencing true, authentic love. Wow. Wow. Wow. Whew. Whew. Yeah. Okay. So, Tammy, you were going to speak to trauma bonding. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, a lot of times people say trauma bonding is when two people meet and they have trauma and they bond over that trauma. Okay. That is not trauma bonding. Right. It can be called bonding trauma, but it is not trauma bonding. And sometimes it's not. That doesn't necessarily have to be unhealthy. You know, you might meet someone that you have had similar experiences that you've had and you guys bond over that and, you know, it makes for good relationship as long as you guys are in a healed place to realize that you're no longer there. Right. Right. And no longer affect your life. Right. So, that's bonded trauma. Basically, you meet somebody, you got something in common with them, you've had, you know, similar experiences and you get into a relationship and, you know, hopefully that relationship works well because you understand each other in deep, meaningful ways. All right. But a lot of times people aren't healed when they do that. Okay. So, they just bonded with another person that has the same type of trauma that they have and both of them are still traumatized and both of them are going to have, there's going to be that friction in a relationship. And ultimately, it's not going to be a healthy relationship. It's going to be a toxic relationship. Okay. Now, the other side of that, trauma bonding is getting involved in a very traumatic relationship and staying in that relationship and making excuses to stay and not leave that relationship, still allowing that, you know, traumatization to happen over and over and over again in that relationship. That is trauma bonding. Yeah. It's like a cycle. Yeah. Yeah. You make excuses for them. You make excuses to stay in that relationship. Wow. You know, you refuse to see. You refuse to see the obvious. They are the greatest people. And, of course, they love you. They just have a little bout of anger. You know, of course they're not cheating. You know, all of these kind of, those types of relationships that you make excuses to stay in, that you refuse to see the obvious in, and you create some type of delusions, but it is totally traumatic. Wow. That's trauma bonding. And the crazy thing with it is that you often recognize that there's trauma taking place. Yeah. But still have that difficulty in leaving. It's like it's a very distorted perception of love. Absolutely. It is. And, you know, if you are an individual that has experienced, whether it's one or multiple individuals you've been abandoned by, you have abandonment as one of the roots to your issues. For me, I found it very difficult. Like I never wanted to be the person in your story that you can say abandoned you in the way that I felt abandoned and lived out. Absolutely. I get it. And so I find myself staying for way too long. Absolutely. So I'm way on the other side of the spectrum at this point. There is no middle ground. Abandonment issues have kept me in situations for way too long. Hey, I can agree. I can totally agree with that. Yeah, I can definitely see that because we do. Because my thing was, you know, I felt like I was judged. I felt like I was under a microscope. I've always felt like I was under a microscope. I come to the church, you know, trying to find serenity and peace and love. And, again, I'm under this microscope. I'm being judged. I'm being, you know, they're perceiving me to be one way. And, you know, things of that nature. And so the basic premise of my relationship is, and this is an interpersonal relationship, you know, social friendships and all of that. You know, I will hold on to toxic friendships because, no, I don't want to judge them. I want to be that person that overlooks your toxic behavior. And all of this stuff, you know, and you're stabbing me 25 times with a knife in my back, you know, and I'm on some type of Lidocaine or, you know, morphine or something. You know, I'm not feeling it, but you're doing it. But I'm still trusting that there's some good in you, right, that I can hold on to so that, you know, we trauma bond even in our friendship. I tell people all the time, if you've got a toxic relationship or a romantic relationship, check your friendship because they might be toxic, too. Yes. They might be traumatic, too. Yeah. Holding on to people because of the years you've been together. Oh, my God. You were, you know, you have similar experiences. Absolutely. This person shares the childhood memories. This person, you know, like instances like, okay, where Sharia's father has passed and, you know, you were married just before. Then you find yourself not wanting to leave the relationship. Because even people do it when people die, not wanting to let go of things because this was the way the house was before they died. So you don't ever want to change anything. You don't want to change your relationship because of, well, you know what, this is a memory, and all of it goes together with the memory and not wanting to change, not wanting to let go of the past. We hold on to significance. You know, we hold on that these memories are significant. These things are, we hold on to them like they're trinkets, you know, and we don't understand that sometimes we're holding on to the very thing that we need to release so that we can be free and get healed. Yeah. So, y'all, I just want to read a comment. Francis Brown said, afraid to be labeled and put in exile by the church, your friendship, or situation shifts. Now, hold on a minute now. Just wait one minute now, because Shauna's been with me on this journey for 21 years, and she's pretty much seen me in every facet of my life. And I would venture with confidence to say she is absolutely correct, because then when I turned to the church, I received more abuse. Absolutely. Religious trauma is the greatest. So, now, I sit over here, and I don't attend church on Sundays, but I still love my God. I still pray. I still fast, right? And I still ask him to have mercy on my soul, but it goes back to every place that I have gone to to seek comfort, support, love, honesty. Rejection, abandonment, and abuse. Yes. Yes. So, from the childhood to the marriages to church. I had a client the other day that labeled the church as a mean girl. The black church. Now, there it is. There's an exercise I do before I get ready to do eye movement desensitization reprocessing therapy, which is a trauma modality to minimize triggers and things of that nature and help you heal from trauma. And so we talk about negative cognitions, right? And so, you know, we talk about, okay, what are some of those negative things or negative cognitions, some of your triggers, okay? And she said the black church. Wow. And I was like, okay, the black church? She said, yeah, because I can go to a Caucasian church or a mixed church and I feel at home. She said, but the black church, the girls are just mean. You know, my counterpart said, oh, yeah, you know, oh, when I met you, I didn't like you when I met you, but you seem to be pretty cool. Oh, well, give me a hug. Oh, no, no, but you can't hug me. Wow. Just like that. And, you know, she found that she has been treated really, really cruel because she's different, you know. But, hey, all of us should be different. You know, she felt that she was treated really, really cruel in the black church. So, you know, label the black church as a mean girl. Wow. I would venture to say that I am not a mean girl. I would venture to say that I would agree with her on that. I can attest to that. Yeah. Yeah. Too bad. I can attest to it, too. I'm sorry. And the thing about it is, and Tammy, I'm sure, well, I'm sure all of us, I don't know about Tammy and Nellie, but I was married to a minister. I was married to two pastors. I'm sorry. One behind the other. And when I tell you, knew that Bible like the back of his hand, Shauna would tell you. Shauna would tell you can't teach, can't preach. But, baby, that household. No, and the trauma happens in the house. But hold on. Let me take some accountability now because I had this conversation with Shauna earlier. So, yes, we were newly married and young. She was a minister. I was a minister's wife. But because I wasn't happy in the home, I put the church before my marriage. Yeah. The efforts poured out. Yes. Wow. Because I didn't care what he had to say. The pastor said, go do this, that, and the next, and that's what I'm going to do. My Lord? Because you're not leading me anywhere. So I'm going to listen to this man who I'm not married to is what I'm about to do. So, consequently, that marriage ended, right? And so if I knew then what I know now, rather he was operating in his fullest potential as a husband, I would have still done better as a wife. My God. And that's me just being real with myself. The transparency is so powerful on this forum. I'm so. Yes. I can point the fingers and I can say he this and he that. There's a lot of things that me and him have had conversations that we wouldn't have done different. And he's remarried now. And I said to him, one time he said, I would do anything to have my family back if I knew then what I know now. And I said, the best thing you can do for me is to be a good husband to your wife. Absolutely. That's what you can do for me. Do it better this time. Because we didn't get it right. Right. In my head, this was my first time being in church. And so it was a small church. And we know how small prophetic ministries are. You don't run your mouth. Okay. So because I wasn't happy in my marriage, I listened to another man. And that's a problem in any relationship. Exactly. Within the eyes of God, it's not right. Two wrongs don't make it right. Yeah. And so here I am with a failed marriage. Right. So, yeah. That one just, that one. Hold on, let me read this comment. One has to love oneself in order to have another. The black church is the people that's supposed to love and help you, however, condemn you at the same time. All disciples were not saved. This is true. So, again, it goes back to the people. I even had this conversation with somebody about just as a black woman living alone, I should not feel uncomfortable living around my black men. But I do. Yeah. But I do. And the reason why I do is because of childhood traumas from black men, from adult traumas from black men. Not to say any other race can't do the same thing, but my experience has been with the people that I felt like I should be most comfortable with, that I should put my trust in. Right. That I wouldn't expect to hurt me intentionally, you know. So, yeah. This is good, though. When you think about, Miss Tammy laid out some really astounding statistics at the beginning of this. Yeah. When you think about the sanctuary and relate it to the statistics and lay it on top of the individuals and how many individuals within that house of God or that church or that, you know, that ministry, are suffering with the things that we're talking about. Right. They're going there looking for refuge, too. So, it's just like they love to say, hurt people, hurt people. Yeah. And you're destroying the flock at the same time, and you're not willing to acknowledge that because you don't even understand your own pain. And you've got to think about it. A lot of these leaders have traumas that they haven't healed from themselves. Correct. So, many times we are interpreting or discerning the word of God. Okay, so let's think about the scripture, okay. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, they're all written by the Gospels. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, yeah, I think it was. They're all Gospels, right. Those Gospels are written by three different men all viewing the same story. Right. They've experienced the same Christ. They've experienced these same incidents of healing, you know, all of the things that Christ was doing, but they have different views. And so that's how trauma works, you know, from a skewed perspective. Everyone has a different view of an experience, right. And when you've been traumatized, you have your vision is so blurry. Yes. Right. You no longer have, it's like you're legally blind. Yes. Right. You don't have a good perception because of the fact of the matter, untapped trauma, which is unhealed trauma, it affects every area of your life because you go through life, everything that you've experienced is familiar to that trauma. Okay, so think about how many times you come into contact a week because of the trauma, PTSD, the complex trauma that you have, with incidences that are familiar to that original trauma that you've experienced. Your life stops when the trauma starts. Wow. You are continually responding, reacting, okay, and behaving out of a trauma narrative until you heal. Until you learn how to manage those triggers and until you learn how to allow that trauma to be where it is and discipline that child in you. I'm doing something called Help Me Healer in February, where I'm dealing with helping people, you know, grow up from the mother and father wounds, the things that they, that childhood trauma. You have to basically, and I use the analogy or the metaphor, discipline the child, grow the child up, you know, allow, give that child permission to heal and be comfortable in their now because their now should not be bleeding into their yesterday and 25 years ago should not be bleeding into our now. Right, absolutely. And it is. When are you doing that because I need to partake. February 20th through the 23rd in Destin, Florida. Oh, I'll be there. Let me just go and book my flight, honey. Yes. So, you know, so I had a powerful week. I'm still in Columbus right now. These women, I wish they could testify. They had a powerful weekend, a powerful Saturday. And I just did, I just tried out one of the modalities that we're going to do in Destin. And when I tell you these women, they left, I'm telling you, it was a powerful healing weekend because we've got to be able to give ourselves, we haven't given ourselves permission to heal. And the way you give yourself permission to heal is normalize these experiences. Because as long as they are foreign, as long as they're shameful, as long as you feel guilt, as long as you feel the pain from that, and you don't allow yourself to heal from that, it's going to always affect you like it did when it was happening. Yes, yes, yes. Tammy, that ties so much into, and we're, we got about 15, we got about 20 more minutes. So that tied into what I was going to ask next, like how important do you think it is for individuals to actually share their stories? Because I know going back to piggyback off of what LaShonna said, a lot of times we don't speak on it because we're afraid of who it's going to affect. Like I don't even know why we're concerned about the person that actually did the abuse, but we don't speak on these things either because we don't trust somebody or we're trying to save somebody or not shame them. You cannot heal what you won't reveal. Wow. That's a word. You can't heal what you won't reveal. That was one of my words from this weekend. From unmasking the soul. You got to unmask the soul. Listen, and I can give you examples. Let me give you examples of experiences, and I know we only got a few minutes. Think about the facts of the matter, especially if you are a child with a CSA, childhood sexual abuse, right? Of course you don't want your children to experience it. You don't want your children to experience it. You're going to move them as far away from it, especially when it comes, when it's incest and it's in the family, right? Okay? You're going to move your children away from that family. You're going to get away from it. Most times people who are trying to get away from the abuse move to children, right? But it doesn't remove the experience because you hide the experience. You try to move away from the experience, run away from the experience, but that experience is still there because you have not exposed it. Wow. The children are continually being affected by molestations, by rape, you know what I'm saying? And you're like, how could this happen because I thought I was moving my child away from this. You cannot heal what you won't reveal. As long as it's hidden, it's like pouring water on a gremlin. It's just going to perpetuate itself one generation to the next generation to the next generation until we get the courage to expose it. Do you think it was easy for me to share my story about being the child of a pastor? And my mama was his mistress for, you know, 15 years. Do you think that was easy? Do you think it was easy for me to tell the story over and over again about being a pastor child that was neglected and sitting at my father's funeral at 10 years old on the friend's side, reading obituary, you know, where my name did not show as his child when I knew I was his child. And we had every other weekend with him. Do you honestly think that was easy, that it's easy for my, for my relatives and you know, those people that, you know, didn't have a choice, but to reject me when he died for me to be able to tell this story over and over again. And they got to listen to this. No, it's not easy, but it was freeing to me because it helped me heal. Okay. It was helping me help others heal because I did not hide the story, right? So you got to come out of hiding. You got to come out of the closet. If you want to heal properly, if you, you got to come out of the closet, you got to heal. I think a lot of times we worry about whether or not our healing journey wounds someone else. And you know what? Sometimes there is collateral damage. Sometimes there's collateral damage. And the thing is, is that, you know, because the fact of the matter is, whoever it may have hurt to come to find out that he had you on the side. Well, that's between you and him, you know, and he's dead and gone, but the fact remains I'm here and I am a product of his infidelity or, you know, and I'm not going anywhere. And I think if we get out of that mindset that, because there's so many things that I've encountered throughout life that because I did not think other people could handle the truth. I had to figure out how to maneuver it on my own because I didn't know whether or not it was, it was something that, you know, you're able to look at yourself in the mirror because I was, I was abused by a family member. And then, you know, did not say anything because I felt like the adult would then look at themselves in a negative light and they placed blame on themselves. And that is too much of a mature mindset as, as a 12 year old to go through. But I did because I felt the need that I needed to look out for my parents. I felt like, you know, I've always been able to take on other people's feelings and to be overly empathetic. And so a lot of times that caused me to have to suffer silently on my own and have to seek God for personal healing because I couldn't go to the adult because I didn't want to wound them in trying to heal me. Right. Yeah. It's handy because we, we, we cover, right. It's crazy because we're hurting, but we cover for the people that hurt us. Right. So mine, the same situation, like Sean and I still have not ever really spoken on, this is the most public platform that I've ever spoken on about this situation. And even in me, I have not even began to put the touches on my book yet because I've been afraid of how is it going to affect other people, the family, because nobody knew, you know, in my head, I said, if my daddy was still here, I could speak my truth because I know he's going to protect me. But at the same time, it has to be told. Right. Because when you're affected like that as a child, when something is taken from you as a child, as a child, listen, as a child. And then I always wanted to be married. Right. Because if I could just get, if I could just get a man that's going to protect me. And then that person does the exact same. You rule me and you control me with sex and this and that. And it doesn't matter if it's even that time of the month, I don't even get those days to myself because now I'm going to just be blunt with it. Now you want me to perform all sex because you're so selfish. Right. Abuse after abuse. Literally. And everywhere you turn from childhood to marriage to the church, it's been the same, same crap. So now in my adult life, I'm fine. I am everybody. Right. Everybody. Because I not even told my son when he was younger, I said, anybody put their hands on y'all kids to show daddy. You better tell me. My mom would have raised him because I'd have been in prison. I refused in my heart to let my child go through what I went through. I didn't care that he was a male because male are abused too. Males are products of infidelity, just like we are. I was considered the other woman's child. Exactly. I was the baby of 13, right? I'm the baby of 13 children. My mom's only child, but I was considered the other woman's kid and I was the one that wasn't going to be shit. Excuse my expression. I was the one that was going to have all the kids. I was the one that wouldn't have a career. And I don't know if those are things that fuel me to go so hard. They feel us to do just the opposite of what folks think we're going to do. Yes. Anybody that knows me and knows me personally, they know if I got something in my head, Sean will tell you she's been my friend 21 years. She'll tell you if I said it in my heart and my mind to do it, I'm going to do it. And I don't care how many times I feel at it, I'm going to do it. So I don't know if a lot of that that was said about me as a child is what pushes me. And I feel like even though he's not here, I got to please my daddy. He got to know I made it. He got to know I did it. You know what I'm saying? And so it's just y'all, this is, this is major and ain't even one session can really touch all of this. Oh, no. Yeah. It can't even touch it. Like I'm killing just talking to y'all. Right. And when I got ready to plan this, I'm going to be very transparent. When I got ready to plan this, y'all I said I was going to block every one of my family members in the life. I was going to block everybody. I didn't know who was going to tune in. I didn't know who was going to listen. I'm streaming on three different platforms right now. So any of my family could be on, but you know what? I don't even care anymore. That's bringing in and of itself. Yeah, it is. Absolutely. We're talking, we're basically talking about how these things impact your intimate relationships, marriages, you know, like, like Tammy said, you know, and essentially where there is no cure, there is no cure where the disease is unknown. If a person is unaware that a root cause of childhood trauma exists within you, then how can they be supportive of that? Right. Absolutely. Which is what she basically said. I feel like both the abuse and the partner must be aware of what the, the elephant in the room needs to be exposed and be willing to go the distance by not only exposing and acknowledging, but seeking to understand how it can manifest and translate into that daily life, into that marriage bedroom. What are those triggers and be able to face that head on. Now, to be fair, this is not by any means easy for the abuse to divulge because there is a real fear of the willingness to share something so deep and so painful to only be weaponized against you. Yes. Absolutely. You're right. That's so good. And you know what? Somebody in the comments had said, I think it was Pearl J. She said, I have a hard time sharing because I feel like folks can use it against me. Yes. And I know a lot of people deal with that. Yeah. I've dealt with that in my intimate relations. You need to go get therapy. You will. You will deal with that. You know, and especially think about it though, when we're traumatized, we don't pick the right partner. That's it. Come on now. We don't, we don't choose. We, we, we choose what we're used to. Okay. We're attracted to what we're used to. I was attracted to my father. My father was very abusive. You know, my father, you know, was very controlling. You know, a lot of my relationships were abusive and controlling. It is. And I, and I got to share this because one of my girlfriends who's a prophet taught me off. She taught me off of alleged just yesterday, yesterday morning, I met someone and I was like, okay, you know, I mean, I'm the same type of individual and I'm healed guys. And I, and I know I walk in my healing, right. You know, but it doesn't mean that you're not going to be attracted to the same thing. Right. It means that you're going to make wise decisions. Let somebody, I'm like, Ooh, yes, yes. But they were my, they were my type. And my type is not good for me. My type is not good for me. And it was so amazing. You know, Dave, the individual with my number, we were talking about going out when I came back home from Columbus and everything. And I went to bed the night of, I went to bed on Friday night and I, I talked in turn and that thing was so in my spirit. And I was like, something ain't right. I had had a conversation with the individual and the individual, the way they were talking, you know, and I, you know, you know, I'm listening because I've learned to listen. I'm like, this is so familiar to me. It was so, it was in my spirit that morning. And I told my friend, I said, listen, this is what happened. And she said, God said, no. God, he said to me immediately. She said, this is a, she said, this is a wrong. No. She said, if you allow, if you get into this relationship, it is going to be just like that relationship that you had with this person. And David, do you, you, you couldn't, I had the phone. And what, listen, I fought hard to get free of that relationship. She was talking about what it killed me. Do you like me? I was talking to her and blocking this man. At the same time, I did not care. I hadn't even listened. I met the man. Listen, in passing. Do you not understand? I blocked him. I blocked his number. I deleted him out of my phone. I was like, I don't, I don't care nothing about that. He got to go. Good for you. Because my, because my healing, where I've come to, you know, where I'm at, that is so much more important to me than my reaction to the things that I know want to hurt. Right. And that's it right there. Because see, the game that's played is that then we, we get tricked into caring about how it makes the other person feel. Oh, well, you know, it's going to hurt his son for me to block him. It's going to happen. He don't even know me that way. Right. You don't know me. And I don't know you. I'm a block. Right. And that's how you, you know, you're going to get hurt. You're going to get hurt. You're going to get hurt. You're going to get hurt. You're going to get hurt. And that's how you recognize that he ended up came through when you can prioritize your wellbeing. Listen, y'all don't know how I hollered. I was calling him. I was blocking him and praising God at the same time. When you get free. Yeah. You are free. Honey. When you are truly free. When you can walk away from something that would have bound up before. Yeah. And you can walk away with no sense of guilt, no sense of shame, no sense of worry. Oh yeah. It's kind of praise. Oh, it's kind of praise. Yes. Yes. So can I add to what she was talking about? The partners and when you get involved with, you know, and being able to, you know, how do you, how did your partner help you? You know, how did your partner help you? One of the things that I wanted to say about the support of the partner, that the partner needs to know that if they have a husband or a wife that has been abused, they need to empower and not enable them. Yes. Right. Because a lot of times, you know, the victim looks for being enabled. And when you're enabled, you will continue to perpetuate the same behaviors that keeping you distant from your partner. You're not going to be able to, you know, be able to have intimacy with a partner in a healthy manner. If your partner enables you to still, you know, operate in that paradigm. Yeah. One of the things I said that for the partner, empathy and empowerment needs to be the goal of the partner and the victim's goal should be therapy and resilience. And that's how, that's how they support each other. Yeah, absolutely agree. I love that. Absolutely agree. Because there has to be a sense of accountability. It does have to be that, like you said, not enabling you to continue on in that victim mentality and mindset, because you are trying to do, you are trying to push past those experiences and you won't do that, continuing that mentality, staying in that place. And it's not easy. You know, I think a lot of times the partner who's not been traumatized, sometimes it helps for them to familiarize themselves. They need the education because they need to know firsthand what it is they're dealing with. Because there is a posture that they need to take where it does, like Tammy said, it stops you from becoming an enabler because that is not any better for the traumatized person than the person who traumatized them. You enabling them to stay a victim is not any better than the person who made me become a victim. Absolutely. Wow. That's heavy. That's heavy. And I think it's, and Sheree and I were talking earlier and I'd love to hear what you ladies have to say about this. You know, when you enter into relationships, when is the proper time to have that conversation? Because again, you know, some relationships start out casual and we don't know that this may end in marriage or not. And I think marriage is kind of late on the front to be bringing it up because a lot of accountability and a lot of things go into that on both sides. But then, I mean, we don't do it in the first day of dating and we don't do it on the first date. Can I say this? Yeah. I think that you should wait until you know that this is somebody that you really want to, you know, try to be committed to. Agreed. I think that, you know, there's a balance in healthy disclosure. Healthy disclosure shouldn't be while I'm dating you. 90 days is not enough time for me to be spilling my guts. 120 days is not enough time for me to be spilling my guts. I don't even need to be, you know, if I'm not celibate, I'm not even going to be trying to see you in 90 to 120 days in my bedroom. So you ain't in my bedroom. You don't need to know what's going on until I feel comfortable that you are going to be someone that I want to be in a committed relationship with. Right. I agree with that. So I feel like, you know, there's a healthy amount of disclosure that should happen and that we should be really careful. I'm not, you know, I don't want to give a time limit, but I do want you to understand we need to be discerning. Who should we share this information with? Exactly. Yeah. So to add to that, in my, for me, I would advise that it's not to make your partner your practice pad. That's good. My son, when my son was in the band, he was a percussionist. He was a self-taught percussionist. His main instrument was on the drum line was the snare drum. And them drums, they cost anywhere between $500 and $3,000. I purchased my child a practice drum pad, $20 to $100 so that he could get that practice of hours upon hours upon hours. You don't want to use that. It's not advisable to use that instrument that is meant for performance. I feel like every woman in childbirth, every woman who gives birth needs a midwife to support her through and coach her through those painful contractions that, to bring that child forth to the womb. Likewise, a counselor or a therapist support a survivor of childhood abuse. Through those pains of hearing themselves say something for the very first time. What is that going to bring up for you? Do you want to do that with your partner for the first time? Right. So I just feel like in some instances, even before you, when you know, even when you know, I think that those conversations should be practiced and have so that you can have the capacity and that strength and that muscle to have that conversation. Tammy, can I ask you a question? Sure. So I know you said, like, we need to make sure that this is the person that we're going to be with. Right. And, but how, so how am I determining if I, if I, if I meet somebody and in my head, I'm feeling like this is the person that I want to be with. Right. But of course, I felt that way. I think, I think it comes in. I know where you're going. Right. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And this is what I'm learning. I'm learning. I know that you've been on, you know, you've been on when we talked about that psychological rejection. Right. You know, talking about emotional availability and all that. Right. That we need not to project what we feel. We need to make sure that we really do know the individual, you know, and I wouldn't say only you could tell because a lot of times we can't tell, you know, and that's how we get caught up in these relationships and then be looking back at, you know, six months like, who the hell is this? You know, the person I met, you know, I really think that I really, and this is what I'm stressing. There needs to be, you need to have a good amount of time, a significant amount of time spent with this individual to know who they really are. Get past that presentation. You know what I'm saying? Get past that presentation. I like that a lot. Make sure that they're consistent in their actions, not just consistent in what they're saying, but consistent in what they are doing. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, 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