Polyphony's Politics and Economics Podcast with Kevin Fear, Headmaster

The headmaster of Nottingham High School, Kevin Feare, discusses the challenges facing the education system, particularly private schools, in the face of Labour Party policies such as putting VAT on school fees. He mentions the lack of investment in state schools and the potential loss of students due to increased fees. Feare discusses the financial impact these policies will have on the school, including the loss of charitable status and increased pension contributions. He also mentions potential cost-saving measures, such as reducing school trips, and explores alternative sources of income, such as opening schools overseas and hosting weddings on school grounds. Despite the challenges, Feare states that he had always planned to retire in September 2025 and that the current issues did not impact his decision. Felly, welcome back to our podcast. Today we are joined by Kevin Feare, Headmaster here at Nottingham High School, to hear some of his views on politics and economics. So firstly, Mr Feare, you've been teaching here for 23 years. Could you just start by telling us a bit about yourself and the school? Yeah, so it's actually 24 years, but yeah, I've been here 24 years. So I joined in September 2000, and I joined first of all as Deputy Head of the school, and then seven years later I became Head, and I've loved every minute since. So now if we go on to the more economic side, what would you see as the biggest challenges facing our education system today, especially in private education? Yeah, well the big challenge ahead is the Labour Party policies of putting VAT on school fees, which will really be a real challenge for all independent schools, including our own. So that's probably the biggest challenge. But then on the other side, in terms of education more generally, it's the fact that in schools, state schools across the country, there's not been enough investment over a long period of time, and therefore whilst they're going to potentially impact badly on our type of schools, they're not actually investing enough in the state sector instead. And would you say that this is going to have quite a detrimental impact on the schooling? Yeah, well it's potentially, here at the high school, it's potentially, we've sort of done all sorts of modelling as to what might happen, but we could potentially lose 15 to 20% of the pupil role in due course. Now that won't mean that the school won't be viable, or the school won't do well, but like all the gains we had from going co-educational, we'll probably go, because we'll lose a number of people whose parents won't be able to afford the fees going forward. And that's really sad, because we're a great school, as you know, and therefore it's good if we can keep it full. But if it becomes 20% more expensive, then demand will fall. So how do you think, as a school, we'd be able to solve, so obviously it's looking pretty obvious that we will see a Labour government, and when this policy does come through, how do you think, as a school, we'll be able to solve or try and tackle the problem? Yeah, well I think we'll have to be careful with what money we spend, that's obvious, but we will have to pass a lot of that cost on, because in a sense it's a tax, and there's no choice about whether we pay the tax or not, so we will have to pay that 20%. So we'll try and save what money we can, we will be able to reclaim VAT on some of the purchases that we make, so the overall impact won't be 20%, but it will probably be something like 15-16%, so that will make the school more expensive, and therefore more of a challenge for parents to pay. Obviously this is coming quite soon after Covid-19 has impacted everyone, would you say that many changes can be made following, because we've just had quite a big period of changes to the schooling system nationally, not just here, would you say that we can change much more? I think there's a lot that can be done to improve the education system around the country, definitely, I think here at the high school we came through that Covid period pretty well, you know, financially we sort of made sensible decisions at different points in time, so that we were able to give parents back some discount on the fees, but we didn't give back too much, which would have caused a problem for us now, but I think nationally the country has got lots of really difficult decisions to make, because the health service needs more money, the education system needs more money, and there's lots of really big ticket items that need more money, and we don't seem to have that money as a country, so that's the challenges ahead, and I think whoever's in government next, that's going to be a big challenge for them. So, obviously Labour are looking to remove also the charitable status on private school, and obviously Nottingham High does have a charitable status, so what do you think, again, the implications will be, just purely be... Yeah, so that will cost the school about £350,000, that's what the charitable status is worth to us, and in addition to that as well, there's a further something like £300,000, because the current government have put up the contribution that the school has to make for teachers' pensions by about another £300,000, so that means that even before the VAT, we've got to find £650,000 extra next year than we have had this year. So, the difficulty of that is it creates some difficult decisions, because at the moment we put a lot of money into, for example, into our bursary programme, and that's really good, and it's really important to the school, it's something that I'm really proud of that we're able to offer that, but on the other hand, one has to look at where cost savings can be made, and we also do an awful lot of work with local state schools, we had something like 3,500 children come last year to come to the school, so that work, again, is sort of threatened by that, so I don't like to say, because not all the final decisions haven't been made, but it's bound to have an impact. So, do you think, obviously, this is also a reason as to why this school in particular is probably cutting down the amount of school trips? Yeah, I think we're having to be, we're having to look quite closely at how much, it's not so much cutting down on the trips, it's about where they go, I think, because, you know, to do sort of like major overseas sports tours, and the cost of those is around about the £3,000 mark now, it's, you know, do we think, in a sense it's a bit of a guessing game on our part, do we think that parents can pay all those school fees and then find £3,000 for a trip on top of that? And there's, you know, it's difficult to know that without launching things and seeing. At the moment, we're not seeing a, you know, the recent ski trip that went, we didn't see a massive fall off, but then the VAT and the business rates and everything else haven't come in yet. Do you think that makes your job any harder then, as obviously a headmaster, but then in the dual status of it being a business at heart, it makes your job quite difficult in two ways, I guess? Yeah, it's the thing about my job that's changed, so I've been headmaster for 17 years, and I think it's the aspect of my job that's changed the most. When I first started, you know, I was thinking about what A-levels we should do, and a lot about exams and things, but now it's all about how many students can we attract to the school, how much do we charge for people that come, running it as a business, the school employs 250 people, roughly, so therefore I have to also think about, you know, employing all those and all of that means, so pretty much most of every day now is spent with me being much more like a CEO of a business than what I came into at the beginning, and obviously I started off as a history teacher, so I've had to learn a lot of those skills over time, and I didn't have the opportunity to do economics A-level, which I would have loved to have done, but I never did all that, so yeah, it's been quite a steep learning curve, but you know, I'm well supported by, we have a director of finance and operations who's obviously, you know, sort of a trained accountant and everything, and so well supported on that side, but it is about making big business decisions, that's what the job is now. One other aspect that I'd like to ask about was about Singapore's school potential, just for any details you can offer on that, and how it's like individual understanding of global issues. Yeah, okay, so what we're looking to do is, we've talked a lot about the economic challenges ahead, but one of the things that we're trying to do is to look at other ways that we can bring in income to the school, so we can try and keep the fee rises down, and one of those ways is to open some schools overseas, so we've got a partnership with a company based in Singapore, and with them we hope to open four schools by 2030, and the idea of that is that we will get paid for some educational services, like a franchise agreement, where we get paid for some of our services, and that money will then come back here into Nottingham, and do that, so in Singapore, we're involved in a bidding process, the school doesn't put any money in, our partners put all the money in, we're just going to be paid for the service, but there's a bid going into Singapore at the moment, we'll hear later this month whether we've been successful, there are 11 organisations trying to bid for this particular school site in Singapore, but if we get it, the school will open next January, and that will then bring in an income, and if once we get to four schools, that income will be potentially in the region of around about a million pounds a year that will come back into the school, and obviously that will help offset some of the things that we've already talked about, so we're also looking at other sort of slightly smaller things, we're also looking at perhaps using the school for weddings in the summer, we don't use the buildings as much in the summer holidays, so we can put on weddings, and again that will bring in income, so maybe one of you can get married in the school in the future. So obviously we all heard the news that you're retiring September 2025, so do you think any of these, obviously what we've mentioned, any of the problems ahead, has that impacted your decision, or is it just purely you feel like it's time? It's easy to see it that way, and I think some people probably do see it that way, two things, one is that all the planning for these problems ahead is going on now rather than in the future, so it's not avoiding that, but no I've always intended to retire at that point, I've had that planned for a long time, obviously it's only just been announced, but I've had that date in mind for a long time, by the time I retire I'll be 62, and I just want to rest and try and enjoy some life beyond the high school, so although I miss it a lot, I want to make sure that I'm still fit and healthy for the next stage of life, so that's why I'm going then, it's nothing to do with any of these challenges, in fact I'd quite like to stay to resolve the challenges, but I can't stay forever. So are you going to continue having some sort of role in the Singapore school, even a bit after retirement? No, I think it's just the way it works, once I've left the school I've left the school, and obviously I'll still follow how the school's getting on, just as I'm sure when you leave school you'll still look out for occasional news about the high school, but I won't be involved in anything day to day after that, that's a step away. I don't know if you've seen, but this morning when I went on BBC News, the first thing I saw was Boris Johnson, and obviously the vote for ID thing that he put in, part of the election gap 2022, he actually didn't manage to bring the correct ID, what are your thoughts on this? Well typical Boris Johnson I think probably, I cast my vote, but I do my vote postly, and if you do your vote postly you don't have to show your ID, but I could get it done in advance, but I think it's just typical Boris Johnson, not giving away my political allegiances at all, but that is very Boris isn't it? And would you say it was perhaps this more stern, kind of like humbler aspect that made him relate to the people, and perhaps in a different time would he have done better as PM? Carry on with that, would you think that if Boris Johnson and Theresa May swapped their time as PM it could have been very different? It might have been, I think Theresa May comes across as somebody who is very organised, has a plan, knows what she's doing, might not be popular, she's not trying to be popular, she's trying to do, I think whether you agree in her politics or not, but she sort of comes across as someone who's just trying to deal with the problems that she's facing, whereas Boris isn't a details man, he's all about sort of show and being an entertainer as I said, so I think that's the difficulty, so they'd be another way around possibly, Theresa May would have definitely been better in charge of the pandemic. Do you think that Rishi Sunak was also a bit unlucky to inherit the Conservative leadership, I find he did? I don't think unlucky, I think, because he was in a position where he could have picked and choose, I think he chose to do it, and it was because of what happened with his trust, that she had made such a mess, am I allowed to say that, I think I am, such a mess of all that she was trying to do, that we just needed a steady pair of hands, so I think genuinely he had a sort of sense of look, someone needs to come in and sort this mess out, and he was probably better qualified of the ones in that party to do that at that time. So, looking at the results of last night, I'm sure you've seen all of the, you said you voted, what do you think the future of our country looks like, obviously, you know, we're all growing up as students here, we're all going into the wider world, what do you think it's going to look like for students, what do you think we're going to have to face with obviously the ongoing economic and political climate and how it's shaping to be? I think the country's got a real problem, because I imagine that you guys will have to, I mean I'm retiring at 62, I imagine you guys will have to carry on working until much later than that, because the basic problem we've got is that there's an awful lot of things that need a lot of money spending, you know, the NHS being prime amongst them, and the only way that that can be done is by taxing, the only way I see it being done is by taxing people more, or people working longer and becoming more productive, and therefore I think it's going to be a tough, tough number of years, because labour will come in, but traditionally labour have spent more money to help reduce some of society's sort of problems, but there isn't going to be a lot of money to spend, and therefore the impact on taxation and on cutbacks and things like that is bound to continue, so I don't think that's going to make as big a difference as people perhaps think it might do, because there's got to be money to spend for it to improve. Do you think that will result in them borrowing more like they did with Gordon Brown, and then Cameron came back in with the austerity, so do you think labour will come in and borrow more in order to spend more? I think it's almost inevitable, but the country's capacity to borrow is reduced by all the money we spent in the pandemic, and therefore that isn't, you know, trying to borrow money at really high rates is going to cripple the country for quite some time. Especially I guess as we're almost 100% of our GDP is debt. Exactly, yeah, exactly. I mean, I'm not an economist, but I just feel that if you already borrowed, you know, it's just like, you just base it around what you would do yourself, if you're already deep in debt yourself, borrowing more doesn't seem necessarily to be the most sensible way out of the problem, even if, I appreciate it sort of increases employment and that sort of thing, but yeah. I know, I don't think I can get a lot away, but as a leader yourself, recognising certain skills in a person, what's your opinion on Keir Starmer as possibly a future Prime Minister? Well, the best thing about Keir Starmer is he's an Arsenal fan, so that's probably the most important fact I know about Keir Starmer. I think they've been quite clever, because beyond the policy about the ATL's independent school fees, they've virtually announced nothing. So I think that's clever on their behalf, because they just haven't told the country what they're going to do. But it's also quite worrying, because clearly they're going to have to take some tough decisions, just as any government does. And the fact that so many people are flocking to vote with them, without them really declaring their policies, I think is quite dangerous, because they're likely to get a really big majority. But a big majority with no plan pre-announced can be quite dangerous really, so that's my concern. But he's a good man because he supports Arsenal. With the impending American elections, do you see the global political landscape shifting significantly, especially with deep elections, and obviously the war in Ukraine at the moment, and China-US relations being a bit strained now? Yeah, I think obviously if Donald Trump gets back in, then that's a potentially quite significant change to the way the world is operating, to try and be non-political about it. Because his view on America's role on the world stage is very, very different, and there are some pretty significant events going on in different parts of the world. And having an American leader that is perhaps less interested in other parts of the world is not great for the way that the world works. We need a strong America and an interested America to try and resolve some of the issues that are causing problems around the world. Again, like you were talking about problems going around the world, you're a historian, are you sir? So if you look at what's going on in the Middle East at the minute, obviously that's stemming back a hundred years, over a hundred years. What do you think would be the best way going forward to tackle the issues in the Middle East right now? Yeah, well I think it's difficult because right now it just needs humanitarian aid. Clearly, whatever one thoughts on the wider politics, it's people and it's their homes and their livelihood and the way that they're being treated and all that. So I think the world needs to come together to resolve the humanitarian crisis. But I don't understand enough of the depth of the issues to really give a strong opinion on what the longer term solution should be. But it strikes me that just on a really simplistic level, we're all on this planet together and actually trying to find ways of people working and living together. I think in some sense it's more like a school where we have so many people with diverse backgrounds and yet we all manage to get on really well together without any sort of difficulties. That sort of gives the world a sense of hope that it can be done, but it's obviously difficult on the ground in different countries. So I don't really know enough to say what the long term solution is, but there's no question. You see the stuff on the news, it's got to be getting as much help as we can into those poor people. Right, so now we've talked quite a bit about the longer term objectives, but if we're looking at a macroeconomic cycle, if you were PM for a day, let's say, what would be your first change? Oh, I think I would... Gosh, that's a good question. That's the first question that's really stunned me. I think probably I would set up a body to look after education in this country that was non-political. So instead of one party coming in and deciding to do one thing, and then another party coming in and really deciding to do pretty much the opposite, I think some of these big topics like education, but potentially the health service as well, should be given to some sort of royal commission or something like that to take them out of the political world, and so that we can look at, for example, what works in education, and then that gets applied around the place, rather than, like when Michael Gove was education secretary, he abolished AS levels. Now, AS levels were working really well, but that was a political move. They wanted to be seen to be tougher on education, so they changed that, and I think if you took the politics out of some of the bigger topics, that would be a good... So that's what I would do, set up some bodies to run things that weren't political. Yeah, so I guess that's kind of similar to the judiciary and the Supreme Court, but would you think that they should be elected? Possibly. But I think probably better still if you just identify a group of people who understand how it works. So recently, for example, the Times newspaper set up a commission into education, and they were a group of people with different political backgrounds, some from the independent sector, some from the state sector, some working in industry, and they set out a charter of things that they felt should happen to education. I see it much more like that, that you just get a group of people who've got an interest and understand the topic, and then we can then look around the world, what works well, is this working? If it's not, then let's change it, but don't just change it for the sake of changing it. Yeah, definitely. But do you think that perhaps not electing them could also cause some disarray? Of course, we live in a democracy, but I think sometimes you need experts. You don't walk into a hospital and sort of have a vote amongst all the patients in the waiting room, which doctor do you want to see? You're told this is the doctor, because they've got a speciality in whatever you're going to see them for. And I think sometimes being led by specialists rather than generalists who are after making a name and a career out of it themselves, being actually led by the science and the knowledge would be better. So I don't think everything has to be a democracy. So obviously I don't run the school completely as a democracy. So if I had to make every decision and you guys had to vote on it, I think at times we wouldn't be in such a good place, perhaps. I don't know. That's maybe got a bit controversial. Yeah, right. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate it. And have a really good day, and have a good retirement when you retire. Thank you.