Propitiation and Atonement in Romans

The transcription is about a theological discussion on Christian theology, specifically focusing on the topics of propitiation, atonement, and the role of law and faith. The group discusses different perspectives on these topics, highlighting the diversity of thought within Christianity. They debate whether faith in Christ supersedes the law or if they are complementary. They also explore different interpretations of propitiation, with some viewing it as appeasing God's wrath and others emphasizing reconciliation. The group also wrestles with the question of whether sin requires punishment and whether Christians can still struggle with sin. The discussion is centered around Romans 3:21-31 and how personal experiences and interpretations shape their understanding of these concepts. The group acknowledges that being a Christian doesn't mean having all the answers, and they emphasize the importance of seeking God and allowing Him to change their lives. The discussion reveals different por welcome to this deep dive, you know, all about Christian theology. Some pretty heavy stuff, honestly. Yeah, you really want to understand, you know, the different perspectives, like on, like, propitiation and atonement and the role of law and faith. Right, and you've given us, like, such a mix to work with, you know. We got study guides, we got biblical excerpts, we got snippets from, like, what sounds like a pretty intense theological debate. You know, what's really interesting is, like, how much these sources highlight, like, the different, like, diversity of thought within Christianity. You know, it's not, like, just one viewpoint. It's, like, a really lively exchange, you know, wrestling with these fundamental questions about God and humanity and salvation. It's like we're being dropped into the middle of a theological wrestling match. Exactly. Everyone's got a different move. Yeah. One of the things that really jumps out right away is this whole tension around the role of the law, you know, for Christians. Yeah. Is faith in Christ enough, or do we still need to follow all the rules? It does seem to be, like, a core issue, you know. The group is really wrestling with this. Some of them believe that faith in Christ, like, supersedes the law. You know, like, Jesus's righteousness essentially fulfills the law for believers. Okay. And we hear this view, like, articulated pretty strongly by Bianca, Sean, and Kurt. Yeah, and they even suggest that, like, focusing too much on the law can actually be a distraction from, like, developing a genuine relationship with Christ. Yeah. Sean, in particular, shares this, like, really personal struggle with this idea. He talks about feeling trapped in this cycle of sin and forgiveness, unable to, like, fully grasp how faith and law, like, work together in his own life. It sounds like a real struggle for him. Oh, yeah, for sure. It's a point of, like, genuine wrestling for him. You know, I found Bianca's statement about this so powerful. She said, uh, why do I need the law when I'm walking with the embodiment of righteousness? Wow. It really makes you think, doesn't it? It really does. If Christ embodies, like, perfect righteousness. Right. And we are united with him through faith, does the law become, like, irrelevant? Yeah. What do you think? It's a question that goes to the heart of what it means to live as a Christian, you know? And, of course, not everyone in the group agrees that faith makes the law obsolete. Right. Atwell, for instance, presents a different perspective. He argues that faith and law are actually complementary. Okay. Not opposed to each other. Interesting. So he's coming at it from the angle that the law is holy and just. Exactly. It reflects God's character. So those who are truly walking in the spirit will naturally fulfill its principles. Yeah. So it's not legalism. No, not at all. It's not like trying to earn salvation by keeping all the rules. Right. But it's like an outpouring of a heart transformed by God. Exactly. Okay, I see. And this difference in perspective, I think, stems from how each person understands, like, the sacrifice of Christ. The concept of propitiation. Of propitiation. Now, that's a word that can send some people running for a theological dictionary. Right. What is that all about? So it's often understood as appeasing God's wrath. The idea being that God demands punishment for sin. And Christ took that punishment on himself to satisfy God's justice. Okay. So essentially, he takes our place. I see. You know? Okay. And that's where Kirk comes in with a real curveball. I see. He presents this completely unique take on propitiation. Okay. And rejects that traditional view of appeasing God's wrath. We even hear a clip where he calls that interpretation a pagan and Babylonian understanding. Wow. Strong words. Yeah, he doesn't hold back. He argues instead that propitiation is about reconciliation. Oh. It's what he calls a triune conspiracy of love. Or is that more? So it's between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Okay. To bring humanity back into a relationship with God. I see. So it's not about God needing to punish someone. Right. But about God creating a way back to himself. Exactly. Like a bridge across the chasm of sin. Yeah. And Bianca picks up on this relational theme too. She offers this beautiful analogy of Christ's sacrifice restoring our broken friendship with God. I like that. Yeah. It really highlights that relational dimension of propitiation. Exactly. Rather than just like a legal transaction. Exactly. But even with this focus on reconciliation. Yeah. DeGroote still bumps up against this fundamental question. Does sin require punishment? That's the question, isn't it? Big question. And Kurt is adamant that it doesn't. He sees sin as inherently self-destructive. Okay. It's a force that separates us from God and leads to spiritual death. Okay. So in his view, sin requires a savior, not punishment. Interesting. So Atwell, on the other hand, holds firm to the belief that sin does demand punishment and that Christ bore that punishment on the cross. Right. It's almost like we're seeing two different conceptions of God's justice here. That's a good way to put it. Is God's justice primarily retributive? Meaning? Focused on punishment for wrongdoing. Okay. Or is it restorative? Okay. Centered on making things right. Right. And healing the brokenness caused by sin. This is where it gets really deep for me. Yeah. Because it makes you question the very nature of God. Yep. If sin is ultimately self-destructive, as Kurt argues, does that change how we view God's role in dealing with it? Yeah. Is he more like a rescuer pulling us from the wreckage? Right. Rather than a judge exacting punishment? It makes you think. It really does. Those are great questions. They are. And as if this wasn't complex enough, the group then wrestles with this very practical question that many Christians, I think, grapple with. If we are truly saved, can we still struggle with sin? It's a tough one. It is. It gets to the heart of what it means to live out our faith. On the one hand, we have Atwell expressing concern about those who claim to be saved, yet continue in sin for years. Yeah. He seems to question whether God's power is truly transforming those individuals if their lives don't reflect a change. That's a valid point. Right. And then we have Sean who comes at it from a different angle. Okay. He believes that this idea of instant perfection is unrealistic. Yeah. And that it's more about how we deal with sin as we continue walking with God. He acknowledges that we're all on a journey. Growth takes time. Right. What truly matters is that we're moving in the right direction. Yeah. Allowing God to work in our lives. It's such a personal struggle, isn't it? It really is. Even as a group debates these lofty theological concepts. Right. We hear one of them admit to struggling with this very issue in their own life. That's powerful. It's refreshing though how open they are about the fact that being a Christian doesn't mean having it all figured out. I agree. There's real honesty in their conversation. Yeah. It reminds us that it's okay to admit we still mess up. Yeah. As long as we keep seeking God and allow him to change us. Right. Yeah. Powerful stuff. It is. You know, it's fascinating how passionately the group dives into Romans chapters 3 verses 21 to 31. Yeah. That passage becomes like a real flashpoint. Yeah. In their discussion about law and grace and the meaning of propitiation. You can almost like feel the energy shift when they start unpacking those verses. It's like that passage is like a mirror, you know? Yeah. Reflecting each person's preconceived ideas and theological biases back at them. And you can practically hear how their personal experiences and interpretations of scripture are shaping how they understand these like complex concepts. Definitely. Yeah. And Kurt, ever the provocateur, you know. Yeah. Directly challenges the group to examine those biases, especially when it comes to how they understand propitiation. He's got a point, doesn't he? Right. Because how we view propitiation. Yeah. The very purpose of Christ's sacrifice has huge implications for how we understand, you know, God's character and the nature of salvation. Right. And it's clear that they don't all agree on what that purpose is. No, they don't. It's like they're grappling with two very different portraits of God. Yeah. That tension between the different portraits is palpable. Yeah. On one hand, you have that more traditional view of propitiation, where God is seen as this righteous judge who demands punishment for sin. Right. And Christ's death in that view is seen as necessary to appease God's wrath. Right. So he takes the punishment we deserve. Right. So that we can be spared. Exactly. But then you have Kurt's interpretation, which completely flips the script. He does. He insists that propitiation isn't about a wrathful God needing to punish someone. Right. But rather about a loving God offering a way back to himself. Right. It's not about satisfying some cosmic debt or balancing the scales of justice. It's about reconciliation, pure and simple. And that's where Kurt's phrase, a triune conspiracy of love, is so powerful. It is. It suggests that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all working together to orchestrate this grand plan of redemption. Right. To bring humanity back to a right relationship with God. Exactly. And Bianca picks up on this relational theme as well. Yeah. You know, she describes Christ's sacrifice as restoring our broken friendship with God. I love that. Yeah. It really makes you rethink God's motivation, doesn't it? It does. Is it about punishment? Or is it about restoring a broken relationship? That's the question. Yeah. It shifts the whole dynamic for sure. And how the group understands sin plays a huge role in this as well. Absolutely. If sin is primarily seen as an offense against God's law that demands retribution. Right. Then propitiation has to be about appeasing God's anger. Right. But if sin is, as Kurt argues, ultimately self-destructive. Right. A separation from God that leads to spiritual death, then propitiation takes on a whole new meaning. It does. And it's not about God punishing us. Right. But about God rescuing us from the consequences of our own choices. Yeah. It's about offering a lifeline, not wielding a hammer. Right. And in Kurt's view, that rescue mission is a collaborative effort of the entire Trinity. Right. This brings us back to that profound question. What is God's justice really all about? Yeah. Is it about inflicting punishment? Or is it about restoring wholeness and making things right? It's like those two contrasting views of propitiation lead to two very different answers. They do. And it all ties back to the ongoing debate about law and faith. Yeah. You know, if Christ's sacrifice is primarily about satisfying God's legal demands for punishment, then the law still seems to hold significant power, even after we've accepted Christ. But if it's about restoring a broken relationship, then the law takes on a different role. Right. So it becomes less about a rigid set of rules we have to follow to earn God's favor. Exactly. And more about a reflection of God's character. Yeah. A way of life that flows naturally from being in a right relationship with him. Exactly. Alwell keeps coming back to the idea that the law is holy and just. But he also emphasizes that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk in the spirit. That's a key distinction, isn't it? It is. He seems to be suggesting that we don't achieve righteousness through our own efforts. Right. But it becomes a natural outflow of being transformed by the Holy Spirit. Exactly. So it's not about gritting our teeth and trying harder to be good. Right. But about surrendering to God's work within us. Exactly. I have to admit, though, I chuckled a bit when Atwell said he sees no contradiction between law and grace. It seemed like the rest of the group, particularly Bianca, was having a much harder time reconciling those two concepts. Yeah. Bianca's question really resonated with me. Why do I need the law when I'm walking with the embodiment of righteousness? It's a good one. Yeah, it challenges us to think about what it truly means to be in Christ. Right. If Christ is the perfect expression of God's character and we are united with him through faith, then what role does the law play? Does the law almost become redundant if we are truly living out the reality of our union with Christ? That's a really interesting question. But then we run into the practical question. Yeah. How do we know if we're truly walking with Christ? And that's where things get really personal because we hear the group wrestling with their own struggles with sin, even as they're discussing these deep theological concepts. Yeah, they're trying to reconcile the idea of being saved by grace. Right. With the reality that they still make mistakes, but they still make choices that go against God's character. And Atwell voices that concern, I think many of us have. Right. How can someone claim to be a Christian and yet live in unrepentant sin for years? Yeah. He seems to be questioning whether God's power is truly transforming those individuals if their actions don't align with their profession of faith. Right. But then we have Sean who offers a more nuanced perspective. Right. He believes that expecting instant perfection is unrealistic and that it's more about how we deal with sin as we continue walking with God. Right. He acknowledges that we're all on a journey and that growth takes time. What matters is that we're moving in the right direction, allowing God to chip away at those rough edges and mold us into his image. It's encouraging to remember that even when we stumble and fall, God's grace is always available and he's committed to completing the work he started in us. It is. But this whole idea of ongoing struggle with sin brings up another tension. Yeah. If we're saved by grace, but still struggling, where does that leave us? Right. It's like we're caught between two extremes. Either we believe in instant perfection, which seems unrealistic, or we accept that we can just keep sinning with no real expectation of change. Yeah. It does feel like you're walking a tightrope. It does. Grace on one side and this ongoing struggle on the other. How do we find balance? Well, I think it's a false dichotomy, right? Okay. The beauty of the gospel is that it offers a third way. Okay. We are declared righteous through faith in Christ, but that doesn't mean we suddenly become perfect overnight. It's an ongoing process. Yeah. Transformation. Okay. A journey of becoming more and more like him. So it's not about either or. Right. But about both. Exactly. Embracing both the reality of our present imperfections. Yeah. And the hope of God's continuous work in our lives. Right. And that process involves a lot of wrestling with our own brokenness. Yeah. It's about acknowledging that we're not where we want to be, but trusting that God is patiently and lovingly working in us, shaping us into this image. Yeah. It's encouraging to hear the group acknowledge that being a Christian doesn't mean having it all figured out, you know? It's about being honest about our struggles. Yeah. Knowing that we're not alone in them. And there's real authenticity in their conversation. Yeah. A willingness to be vulnerable about their imperfections. And I think this is where Kurt's interpretation of propitiation becomes particularly powerful. Yeah. If we understand propitiation as primarily about restoring a broken relationship with God, then it changes how we view those mess ups. Uh-huh. You know, those moments when we fall short. It becomes less about fearing God's punishment every time we sin. Yeah. And more about running back to Him, seeking forgiveness and restoration. And trusting that He's not holding our sins against us. Right. He's already dealt with them fully and completely through Christ's sacrifice. That's where true peace comes from. Knowing that we are accepted and loved, not because of our performance, but because of what Christ has done for us. Right. It's a gift freely given. Yeah. Not a reward we have to earn. What strikes me, though, is how differently the group seems to be experiencing this peace. You know, you can hear it in their voices. You can. Some seem to be carrying a lot of guilt and uncertainty. Yeah. While others sound much more confident and secure in their relationship with God. Yeah. And I think it goes back to their differing views on law and grace. Right. Those who are still trying to earn God's favor through their own efforts. Yeah. Even subconsciously. Right. Seem to be struggling more. While those who are resting in God's grace and trusting in his power to transform them. Yeah. Seem to have a much deeper sense of peace and freedom. Absolutely. It really does make you wonder if our understanding of these theological concepts actually affects our day-to-day experience of faith. It makes you think. Yeah. It's not just about head knowledge. Right. It's about heart transformation. Yeah. And that's what this deep dive has really highlighted for me. The importance of wrestling with these big questions. Uh-huh. Engaging with different perspectives. Mm-hmm. And allowing God to challenge our preconceived notions. I agree. You know, it's not about always having the right answers. Yeah. But about allowing those answers to shape our lives. Mm-hmm. To transform our hearts and to bring us into a deeper, more intimate relationship with God. Absolutely. It's about letting go of the need to control and allowing ourselves to be loved and transformed by the one who knows us better than we know ourselves. So as we wrap up this deep dive, here's a final thought for you to ponder. You know, we've heard a lot about how Christ's sacrifice brings peace and reconciliation. But how does that affect our understanding of God's justice? If God is not to punish us for our sins, does that change how we view his role in our lives? And how does it affect our own journey of faith? Knowing that we are loved and accepted not because of what we do, but because of what Christ has already done for us. Thanks for joining us on this deep dive. Until next time, keep seeking, keep questioning, and keep growing in your understanding of the God who loves you unconditionally.