See Me The Podcast-Episode 3

In Episode 3 of See Me, the Podcast, Genevieve and Myria welcome playwright Colleen O'Doherty, who wrote a play on Long COVID called Heavier than Water. Colleen shares how she was inspired to write the play after hearing about friends with lingering COVID issues. She conducted interviews and research to understand the long-term effects of COVID, aiming to bring awareness and shed light on the subject. Challenges included gaining trust for interviews and navigating the writing process authentically. Colleen hopes to follow a tradition of capturing important moments in history and not letting them be forgotten. Genevieve: Hi, friends, and welcome to Episode 3 of See Me, the Podcast. Today, we're going to be talking about Long COVID. We're happy you're here. I'm Genevieve. Myria: And I'm Myria. Today, we're excited to bring to the show playwright Colleen O'Doherty, who has written a full-length play on Long COVID called Heavier than Water. It has had a public reading at Chicago Dramatists for the Telling Human Festival back in December of 2023. Genevieve: Colleen received an MFA in Play and Screenwriting from the University of Nebraska at Omaha. She also works annually with the Great Plains Theater Festival as a reader, is part of the Women's Writers Group for Speranza Theater, runs Queer Writers Club for Chicago Filmmakers, can be seen many Saturdays writing with the Caravan Writers Collective, and helps out with the Chicago Poetry Brothel. Her work can be found on the New Play Exchange. She was also on the Nebraska Arts Council Teacher Roster and was a facilitator for Shakespeare Behind Bars. I'm sure I can go on and on about her accomplishments, but we are so pleased to welcome her to the episode today and are very appreciative she was willing to talk to us and share with us her story. So Colleen, tell us about yourself and what Heavier Than Water is about. Colleen: Well hello, yes, thank you for that lovely intro. So yeah, as you noted, I'm a playwright and a teaching artist, among other paths I wear, and I decided to write Heavier Than Water when I started hearing about some friends, kind of through stuff like Facebook, that were having these lingering issues after COVID. And then I saw a couple news articles talking about this idea of long COVID. I was like, huh, you know, that's kind of, and I've always been interested in medicine and kind of medical and science topics, and I also have a background, a lot of my plays are either based off true events or are based off interviews. So that was kind of already something I was doing. And so when I saw this thing about long COVID, I was like, well maybe if I do a call and get a couple interviews, maybe that will lead somewhere. And it kind of led in this whole journey where I interviewed, directly interviewed about five to ten people, but then sat in on tons of groups and support groups, and deep dove into articles and interviewing medical professionals, and it just kind of took me on a journey of finding out this whole world of, you know, long COVID and the other kind of lingering effects, both physically and financially, emotionally, everything of COVID. So, yeah. Myria: Wow, that's, that's kind of, that's really interesting. I bet it took you a minute to get all that put together, huh? Colleen: Oh my gosh, yeah. It was, it was a process. So, I mean, first there, I had the first interview, I remember, with this incredible woman who's based out of Illinois, was originally from Omaha, and she shared her story with me, and at the end of it was like, you have to like, kind of basically told me you have to keep doing this, you have to get the word out, because she's like, you know, people just don't understand what this is like. And so then that just led to me to continue to keep interviewing. So it's just, it took like two or three years of interviews and collecting information and stuff before I was able to even to put a draft together, because it was just a whole thing of looking at this enormous, you know, chunk of information and all these stories and everything people wanted me to make sure to tell people and then try to figure out how to put that into some sort of narrative structure, you know. Myria: Yeah, that's amazing. And speaking of people not understanding, I think I'm one of those people. So I personally don't know much about Long COVID. Can you tell me, can you tell everybody what exactly that is, what it entails? What are you talking about, exactly? Colleen: Yeah, yeah, no, and I think, I'm glad you bring that up, both the kind of not knowing about it, because I think that's a big issue, you know, for so many reasons, right, that there's kind of this dropping of the ball by public health that, you know, has, you know, comes from these political issues. But anyway, like, a lot of people really don't understand what this is. People think, oh, COVID's gone, I'm safe from it, you know, you get it, the cold, and then you're done. So yeah, there's so many misunderstandings around it. So I just want to, I guess, first validate that if people don't know what it is, that's not because they're ignorant or something. It's just what, where we're at. But yeah, Long COVID is essentially, it's a constellation of symptoms. So it can be, I think they've documented now up to 200 that range from, you know, inconvenient or frustrating, but not life-altering, all the way through completely debilitating. Genevieve: Okay. Colleen: And it usually shows up in people, you know, it's considered Long COVID once you're outside of the window of your normal, normal recovery. Now, COVID itself, for some people, it can, as we all know, I think anyone who hasn't knows, it can take you out for a good month or two, depending on just your own personal health and thoughts with it. But when you're getting into four to six months, it's somewhere around, there's a certain point in which they start going, Ooh, you haven't recovered yet. We might start looking at this as Long COVID because it's symptoms that just persist and don't get better in the normal kind of course of recovery. And yeah, and like I said, on the, on the more, just kind of annoying end are ones we, I think everyone's heard of, Oh, my sense of smell and taste, which can still be a profound life change for someone, especially, let's say that one of the people I interviewed was a Somali. That's a separate thing. Like, that can be a very debilitating thing, but that can be more frustrating all the way to, you know, you can have people that have basically a version of what we know more colloquially as like chronic fatigue, where their energy is completely like, we're talking like the type of fatigue you feel the flu, but hits you after just a couple hours of normal activity, brain fog that feels like dementia, or as described often as like, so yeah, it runs a whole constellation of symptoms that are really, can be really life changing. Myria: That dementia one, that's scary. Colleen: Yeah. Genevieve: So Colleen, what is the biggest challenge you have experienced when writing this play? And what do you hope others understand about Long COVID? Colleen: Oh, I think some of the challenges were like, as far as gathering the interviews, some of the challenges were just a mixture of getting the word out there that I was doing the play and getting people to trust me. I mean, I don't have Long COVID, at least not in any strict sense. I mean, I think I like a lot of people have had some aftereffects that maybe never totally resolved. I wouldn't, you know, I don't, you live in that limbo of a category or whatever, but like, as far as like really like Long COVID impacts day in day out life, that's not my experience, you know? So I'd say with the getting interviews and things like that, yeah, just kind of making sure there was a good sense of like trust and they felt safe and all that. I'd say then in the writing and development process, because it's not the first play I've done that was based off interviews or based off true life or based off a sensitive subject or anything. So there's always been what should be a challenge. It should be like constantly kind of assessing and reassessing, am I using this material in the best way? Like, am I showcasing these stories in the most like authentic way that does the, you know, does what I want it to do, which is to shed light on the subject and to garner awareness and sympathy, you know? So the process of creation has a little more heft to it that way than if you just write some made up fun idea, you know? And then as I've completed drafts, getting it out into the world has been tricky. And some of that is, you know, me working on probably craft elements sometimes like, oh, this is too prosy, like maybe it's just not theatrical enough. But some of it is I have gotten pushback in the, like, we don't, no one wants to think about COVID anymore, you know? Like, I think it's kind of a myth. I think, you know, I keep trying to get out there and I've had some readings, I've had places show interest in publishing, like a monologue out of it, things like that. But as far as, you know, a little stronger interest, I'm sure some of it is, you know, I'm not, always the writing can be improved upon. But I do suspect at least part of it is that people don't want to think about it anymore. You know, there's that burnout on COVID and that helplessness and there's nothing can do within the world now, I think is really strong. And people, I understand. So, yeah. Myria: Perfect. I think you might have just answered my next question. I think my next question has something to do with what, you know, what was your, like, ultimate goal with this experience? And I think you did say that you wanted to bring awareness to COVID. So, I guess, let me think of another question real quick, then. What? Colleen: As I'm thinking, I will say, like, I'll buy you time, because, like, I want to bring awareness to it. I think, too, there's part of me that just wanted to, I guess, as a playwright, be in a certain tradition of people that, like, also captured something in history that could just get shoved under the carpet. You know, if you think of The Normal Heart, what that did with AIDS and, you know, similar plays to that, or think of The Laramie Project, what that did with, you know, capturing the real impacts and horrors of, like, homophobia and the need for hate crime legislation. You know, like, there's also an element of just, like, not letting, like, a group of people or a huge pivotal moment just get, like, kind of swept under the rug, too. Genevieve: Right. That's good. Myria: You just read my mind, because that was actually leading up to the substitute question of my original question. And you kept saying that people don't really want to talk about COVID anymore. What is it that makes you, you know, still want to keep the subject alive, I guess, in a sense? So, yeah, she read my mind. So, I guess your next question. We must be psychologically aligned or something. Colleen: What shape am I thinking of? Myria: All right, Genevieve, your next question. Genevieve: Okay. Was there moments in the writing that surprised you? Colleen: Like, kind of. I guess in the sense, I think when I went to start it, I, because I wasn't entirely sure how I wanted to approach it, because, so, if you look at plays that have taken on, like, biographical, historical, whatever moment, like, true-to-life moments of any kind, like, there are different ways you can approach it. You can do, like, semi-fictionalized. You can do just a straight, like, Anna Deavere Smith does beautiful work. She was a big inspiration. She just takes verbatim, it's called, like, verbatim theater, takes the words as they are, and she might cut things, but basically, it's just, here's what they said. So, yeah, I mean, there's so many different approaches. So, I think at first, because of my just adoration of Anna Deavere Smith, I think I thought, oh, maybe I'll do verbatim theater, and then as I went to write, I kind of realized, if I wanted to take just all the different perspectives I was getting, both about long COVID, but also the interview people just also became about, like, COVID's impact in general. If I did verbatim, it limited me a bit more, I felt like, than if I did a little bit of fictionalizing, but just really tried to stay true to the themes, the things I really wanted to make sure I noted the things people wanted noted. When you fictionalize, you can, like, shore things up or sharpen things or, you know, take out, you know, redundancies that we all have when we speak, right? When we speak, we're not, like, you know, speaking for a crowd, you know? So, when you fictionalize, you do get a little more leeway to do that, and also, I think part of me feels like I can shield people a bit better. I think I do get nervous with verbatim. I admire people that do it, but I think part of me, you know, was just nervous about, well, gosh, if I put this person's individual story out there, will they feel, like, too exposed? So, yeah, I think I thought, oh, I think I'm going to do it one way, and then as I was writing it, it shifted a lot. Myria: Oh, cool. Now, how has the audience responded, like, particularly people who have had long COVID versus those who don't know anything about it? Do you feel like you've had pretty good responses, or what surprised you, I guess? Anything? Colleen: It's been a small sample size. I haven't had, like, huge audiences in front of it, but the ones I have have had a mix of folks who have either had themselves long COVID or taking care of someone with long COVID, and those folks have so far, you know, given feedback that it seems, like, true to life, or they feel like it's not misrepresenting something, and I've had a little bit of feedback. It's like, well, you know, it might be, like, some things are almost, it's funny, just more craft things, like, well, I don't, this feels more like a story and not a monologue, you know, like, so I think it's sometimes like, yeah, no, you captured that part right, but I just don't like how you did this or whatever, and as far as people that put it in front of it don't have long COVID, I think they found it very, I think people hear long COVID and think it's like, oh, you just, like, still kind of have some symptoms of it, but they realize how devastating, like, truly life-altering devastating it can be, so I think that has been very, like, jarring to some people. Genevieve: Oh, jarring in a good way, sounds like, yeah. Colleen: Yeah, yeah. Genevieve: So, what else would you like to share about your play? Talk about, like, where we can find it, and what's next for you? Colleen: I guess, as far as the play, I do have it on New Play Exchange, if anyone's up for those other theater geeks who are on New Play Exchange. I'm always open to working with folks to either develop it or get it on its feet, but really, to me, like, that play lives more in the realm of what I hope people understand. It's just, like, how much, well, exactly what you guys are advocating for. We just need more resources. I mean, right, this almost becomes such a much bigger conversation. We need more resources for all sorts of people, right, for people that don't have money, you know, like, we can get it all whole, right, rabbit whole, but, like, long COVID suffers a bit from stigma, you know, in a certain way. Like, I think, you know, if someone hears you have cancer, don't get me wrong, like, it's god-awful, and there's still people that get freaked out by disease in general, or anything like that, but I think people, they know what it is, and they go, oh, of course, like, they need help. I think that people, if you're long COVID, and they still don't really get what's happening, so I think, like, to the degree how people know about the play, I just want them to know more about, kind of, what's happening, you know, if someone says they have long COVID, you know, if someone says they have long COVID, or says they're struggling after they've had COVID, like, don't just brush that off. That might be something that's about to get worse before it gets better. People themselves take, like, one of the biggest things I've heard from people that have long COVID, radical rest. If you are able to, I know it's tough, this is in some people's jobs, if you get COVID, don't treat it like, oh, it's a cold, I'll just go right back to things, like, you have to make sure your body makes that full recovery, because if you get into a certain downward spiral, it's not good. Like, getting back out is really hard. So things like that, I would just want more people to know about the play, sure, but just know more about how to protect themselves, protect others, like, what to look for, things like that. Genevieve: That's great. Myria: I like that, your analysis with cancer, because that actually put it in, and it explained it to me in the perspective where I was able to understand. Colleen: Oh, yay. Yay, I know. Genevieve: It kind of makes me think of, like, my ex-girlfriend had fibromyalgia, and a lot of times people wouldn't believe her, including me sometimes, because I was really, like, ignorant about what she was experiencing. And so, I'd be like, yeah, you're fine. And then she wouldn't be fine, and was in terrible pain and everything. So, I mean, like, I think that people, like, have the same sort of attitude toward long COVID. Like, maybe they don't know about it, and so they're, like, kind of like, well, what is this? And maybe it's not a thing, and all this, but it actually is. Yeah. Colleen: I think long COVID suffers from exactly what you guys are trying to tackle this podcast, the general stigma and ignorance. People don't know what they don't know. They don't understand what they don't, you know, like, as far as, like, invisible illnesses, things that when we can see a disability or see something or process it more readily with their senses, we just tend to do better, unfortunately, about, oh, sympathy, understanding. For a lot of people, unfortunately, if they can't experience it, they have a harder time sometimes. Yeah, no, unless it's explained to them, which is exactly what you're trying to do, you know. Genevieve: Yeah, definitely. Myria: Like, I have arthritis, and so when I'm limping and struggling to move because I'm in pain, people usually just assume, oh, their first question is, like, oh, how did you hurt yourself? Like, how did you injure yourself? They really don't think of it as being, like, this hidden disability. The initial reaction is, what did you do to yourself? Why are you limping? So, yeah. Colleen: So, is that question irksome? Like, do you see it as, like, an opportunity to explain, it's arthritis and blah, blah, blah. Or are you, like, why are you in my business? Like, what do you? Myria: You know, that's a great question because I actually addressed that in the second, our second episode. Gosh, it's, I, what did I, what did I say, Genevieve? It actually annoys me. It's almost offensive to me. I'd almost rather they just, like, mind their own business, honestly. I'm not sure why it irritates me. I think maybe it's just because I've had it for so long. Like, I've had arthritis, I'm 50, and so I've had arthritis since I was 17. And so it's just a question that's been asked so often that I think it's just gotten to a point where it's annoying. And I, you know, I have to remember, like, it's not like it's the same person asking me the same question. It's many, multiple people. So, I have to try to pause and think, okay, this person doesn't know, you know. So, but it does get kind of annoying. Colleen: Well, if you've been getting asked since you were 17, I think you get to be annoyed. I assume, did you get a lot of, when you, especially when you're in, like, your 20s, did you get a lot of you're too young to be dealing with that? Myria: Absolutely. That was something else I said, too. Yeah, yeah. I appreciate the understanding. When I was 17, and I try, I tell, I try to tell my family, I try to tell anyone that I was brave enough to tell, including my doctor, that I am, like, I really think I have arthritis. And they're, like, oh, you're just too young to have arthritis. So, so I just, I thought I was going crazy. Colleen: Medical gaslighting. An evergreen problem. Myria: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Colleen, for joining us for our third episode. We really, really appreciate it. Is there anything else you'd like to address, Genevieve, or ask? Genevieve: I don't think so. You can always visit us at SeeMeThePodcast at https://substack.com/@SeeMeThePodcast, or find us on Spotify, Pandora, Apple Podcasts, or Amazon Music. Myria: Thank you. Thank you again, Colleen, for joining us and explaining, you know, what, or at least in your best way, explaining long COVID. And then I just, actually, I was, I just remembered my stepson, when he had long, or when he had COVID, he lost his sense of taste. And till this day, till this day, he claims that nothing tastes right. Colleen: Well, because I think that damage might be, I don't know if you want to record this part or not, but I think that damage might be, like, neurological. That's the other thing that COVID is how, like, it is a multisystemic. And some of the things that seem, like, kind of superficial, like, oh, your taste is, it's like, well, that's brain damage. Or major, for some people, just that major nerves get damaged or whatever. Like, yeah, no, that's significant. Myria: That is interesting. Yeah, because my, at the time, my whole family, we got it myself, my ex-husband, and both of our boys, we got it at the same time. I think we just all gave it to each other. And every one of us kind of experienced slightly different things, for sure. My, none of them had the, like, the severe amount of cough that I did. I got to a point where I was coughing so much that I couldn't even, it was, I had a hard time breathing and catching my breath. Yeah, it was bad. Genevieve: It went on for weeks, yeah. Myria: Yeah, mine lasted probably three weeks or four, I think. At least, yeah. But, and of course, just like everyone said with COVID, the youngest, the younger people recovered fastest. So, it was like, my, our youngest son recovered the quickest. He recovered, like, within a couple days. The severity, he recovered in a couple of days. And then, and then our next oldest, and then my, my ex-husband, and then it took me the longest to recover because I was the oldest of the bunch, so. Colleen: Well, because some of that, I mean, some of that's age, but we also know that, like, long COVID affects, you know, female-bodied people more, and you're kind of in condition. Like, there are things that can, like, just leave individuals vulnerable, you know. Like, that's still, like, still the case. So, yeah, yeah. No, when I got it, I, like, I had had my, like, kind of, depression really well under control for, like, three years at that point. Got, got COVID, and within a month of it, I was in one of the worst depressive episodes I had in years. Like, I just was suddenly just not functional. Like, it took me months to kind of get back, get back to normal. And that was the only thing that had suddenly changed. Like, my life was really good, you know. Like, it was just, I had that, and then I later read, you know, I'd been interviewing people by that point, but then I later read, like, they're starting to connect. Like, like, loss of serotonin can affect your serotonin levels. Myria: Oh, interesting. Yeah, yeah. Colleen: So, like, I'm sure that couldn't have been unrelated. So, yeah, it impacts everyone differently. Genevieve: Yeah. And we're very happy that you were able to share a little bit about your play and long COVID. Colleen: Yeah, no, happy to.