LS_30114 vanessa cooke 2

The conversation covers various topics related to the theater industry, including discussions about James, the struggles with funding, changes in leadership, and shifts in programming focus. There are mentions of past figures like Barney Simon and Malcolm Purkey, as well as reflections on the evolution of theater practices post-1994. The dialogue also touches on issues of financial support, the decline of permanent theater companies, and partnerships with international entities. Overall, the conversation delves into the complexities and challenges faced by the theater community over time. probably sounding a bit that you're interested, I'm not actually I find it interesting but I don't find it... when I when I see James I find him very nervous and besieged almost in a way. It's this funding from the state to run a... it should be easier for him in a way, but it isn't. So, yeah, because James is an artist. Of course. Which is right for artistic director. Yeah. But I don't know what the relationship with the board is and all of those things. But... Have you spoken to James? No, he didn't... the two who didn't reply were Adrian and James. This is why time this time here was so short. I had so many other interviews that I didn't insist. But I tried to contact him. I tried to call him. I met him in London in October. Oh, okay. But we just... He must be jealous. I think he's very hassled at the moment. Yeah. I get the feeling. Yeah. I think he didn't reply for that. Maybe he just... Yeah. Not kill someone else. Please, let me just think. Yeah. I mean, of course, I was writing him that I wanted to talk to him about the current situation of the market. And he probably doesn't want to talk about that. It was him and Laura having such a fight. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. And it's all on Facebook. I know. Which I find also problematic. Yeah. I really do. Of course. I'm very 20th century on that level. But I feel there's more things that can be sorted out in a way that everyone doesn't have to know exactly what your little fights are about. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I think this is quite... It makes me scared, actually. I wouldn't say anything on Facebook. Me. No, me neither. Never. And it has caused trouble. Majumela, who took over from me at the lab, he put something on Facebook and he lost his job. At the market? Really? Yeah, because he talked about Jewish people, two Jewish people at the market. And it was all... It was Malcolm. It was one of them. He was talking of... Yeah. Terrible. And you sort of think, oh, why didn't you just say it in the bar, you know, and go to bed? Or whatever. Yes, we live in different times, I suppose. We are. We are. I don't know. We used to care for each other a lot. It was very much of the time of not insulting anyone, except the government, you know. So we were very careful with each other, caring about each other. We had to. We were such a small group, you know. How did you behave among yourself? How did this work? How did you... I mean, Barney Simon was the boss, no? He was the boss, but he was... Not in that way. There wasn't that... I've got to make an appointment to see Manny or Barney. No. Yeah, of course. No, no. I need to talk to you. It was direct communication always with everyone. Fights, of course. There were fights, but we didn't... That kind of competitive politics for me wasn't there. Yes, we wanted to do good work, but if Andrew was doing good work, it's brilliant. Not who does he think he is to come here and take over. For me, those were very important things that we will... We had a mission, but not stated. Not to show off. Barney always said, if you're a little bird and you fall out of the nest, you don't make a huge noise on the ground. You go about sorting yourself out, because otherwise you'll be dead. What were those differences between Barney Simon, John Carney, and the Malcolm Perkey? I mean, you've had them all. You've had them all, yeah. And what changed after 1994? Well, firstly the money, I think, that made a huge difference. That came in 1995? 1995. The day after Barney died. Really? He died, and the next night we had to go to a cocktail party. That night, actually. He died at 4 o'clock in the morning. That evening, we went to get the cheques. Can you imagine? That is irony. So he was never destined to benefit from that funding. He knew it, though, that it was coming. He must have. He knew it was coming. He was very happy, because we thought all our problems would be solved. But somehow they weren't. John, I think, was not experienced in terms of people skills, because basically he's an actor. Which is fine, so am I. But, you know, I think Barney had a sort of psychology of dealing with especially young people. And I don't know if John had that. You know, I love John, but it was very different. And Malcolm, I don't know. I never thought that he cared much for the lab. And I was the lab after Barney, because someone had to look after the lab. I didn't feel that he understood what we were doing. Which is one of the reasons that I left John. He was doing another term, and I thought, OK, I've reached an age I can say I'm going. And hopefully young people will take over, which they have. It still has the same philosophies, I think. But for me, Malcolm, I don't know. Maybe we didn't understand each other. What in terms of programming? Programming, yes. Those sort of things. Development of new work. He didn't have the same... He wasn't interested in the resident project, for instance. He was more interested in scripts. The workshop process was not so interesting to him. And that's where we came from. Not that it's the only way, obviously. But there was a double kind of way of doing things. And I think he also thought that the market should be doing theatre, not training people. But a lot of people can't come to this. Why? They don't have the money, they don't have the qualifications. They don't have a good exam result. Some don't have matriculation. Don't have? Their matric... Their final papers from school. I don't know what you call that in English. Matric? Matriculation. Matriculation, OK. So there were... Misunderstandings, I think, in a way. But then I also thought, maybe it's got to move on. It can't be what we had. The times are different. So the core, the original work of the market theatre was very much process-focused and very much workshop-focused? It was. And there were plays, obviously. But because of the cultural boycott, we also produced a lot of our own work, which I thought was a very good thing. Kind of created a South African theatre. And I think James is like that. I think he does like the process of theatre a lot. I think he's very besieged at the moment. But that's my opinion, obviously. And nowadays there's a lot of... There's not a lot, lot, lot of South African theatre that there used to be. And of course not all of it was good in those days, but there's a lot of imported kind of musicals and those sort of things. There isn't that intense love of theatre from a lot of people. There are, however, still people who love theatre more than anything, which is how I guess it survived. You didn't go to Soweto Theatre? No. They're also having problems with money for production and things like that. I don't know why they didn't change the policy. I'm not sure. It's right. You don't have to have that policy, do you? Not for me. There's something not settled yet, not right yet, I think. I don't know. Maybe that's the way it is with theatre. But where does it come from? Why is there this strange... I don't know. I'm not sure. It wasn't in the white paper that we drew up. Because we drew up an act, remember, that long ago? It didn't specifically say the government must pay for admin only, you know, and maintenance. It never said that. But somehow it got to be that. And I think that must have thought, well, the NSC will fund the artist, or the lottery, but it's never really worked out, has it? Do you mind? Go ahead. No, no, it's fine. So it's theatre, it's funny. I mean, this whole company system you had at the market theatre has completely gone. We never had... The company was the one thing that we didn't keep going. We had a company of actors and then we got the market and that died. So there was never a permanent company. There wasn't actors. But there were core actors. Not even, but obviously they were favoured people, I suppose. I mean, the likes like you or John Carney or Winston Shona I would say they were kind of core actors, no? But not all the time. Not all the time. And the performing arts councils had permanent companies which also then died out after 1994. But I think the state theatre I mean, when I was here in 1998 the state theatre company worked still. Yeah. And then it all finished with the 2000 closing. Yeah. So that has been something that's never really happened at the market, I'm sure. Yeah, of course. Which is a shame, in a way. That's debatable, I guess. The Swedes are always debating that. What? They've got lots of people in permanent positions and sometimes there are not enough parts for them and they still have to pay them. Yeah, of course. So there are two sides to that, I suppose. But yeah. This relationship with the Swedish finished when? It finished 2000 and something. After you've left. After I left. And then there's a few partnerships like Lara has a partnership with Maria Weissby that they do things together. There are a few. But not like it was. At all. But things have also changed there, I guess. Like the Stockholm Stadstheater doesn't do international tours anymore. Did they come regularly? Yeah, they came every second year or so. On their own costs. Their own costs and then we would take things there. It was a nice partnership. So those things have, I suppose, died out as the development thing has gone down. Is there still funding from international foundations or companies? I think there's some, yeah. I'm not involved in it anymore. I think there's some but not as intense as it used to be. When you left, how was it? Still like it was before? How did it develop? Some embassies were already starting to say, well now we must move on South Africa's more stable now and we'll move to India or wherever. I don't know if that's good. If it will.