recording-1_2025-06-12_11-52-34

The conversation covers various topics, including the roster of artists focusing on MENA and Latin America, the gallery's history, the separation of Bardot as a different entity, initiatives to support young artists and designers, exhibitions, like the postponed Ibrahim Mahama show and upcoming Mbarek Bouhchichi solo show, Dream City festival's impact on Tunisian arts scene, the importance of community engagement, and the uniqueness of involving diaspora artists in site-specific projects. It emphasizes inclusivity, shaking up the art scene, and catering to both local and international audiences. That's right. Okay. And how many artists do you have on your roster currently? Is it about 22? You know I have to check that. Okay. Yes. Because we keep adding. And a mix, isn't it? It's MENA, Latin America. It's not all. Focus on North Africa for sure. Yeah. And a lot of artists that are from North Africa but never exhibited or lived in North Africa. So I'm very much working on recreating bridges with artists who actually grew up elsewhere. Never, I mean parents are, one of the parents or both parents, are from Tunisia or from Algeria or from Libya or from Morocco. And for them it's kind of an idea in the back of their head of coming back and showing contemporary art in Tunisia or elsewhere, or North Africa. But for them it's kind of complicated. How can they do it? Because they are used to certain standards. It's not necessarily straightforward to come back home and put together like a strong show. So we're trying to do that with a lot of artists from the diaspora. And it's really, really interesting. Interesting in what they have to say, what their work is about? Yeah. I mean, should I check the number of artists? Yes. Thank you. OK, so that's what I saw on your website. I was looking, you can just check it. Yeah. OK. Just a bit more quick fact-checking. Your mother opened her first gallery, Attica, in the 90s, also in Sidi Bouzid, which was sort of art and antiques. Tunisian art as well from Tunis. Yes. Orientalism. OK. School of Tunis. Did that happen a bit later, that move into more contemporary post-war? Yeah, later. Much later. Yes, because I read something about something to do with this artist. Is there an artist called Armand? Yes. That's how she started the contemporary art space. Oh, OK. She moved to another space, which is not the antiques space. Yes. And started another gallery, which was focused on contemporary art. It was through the initiative of Armand that she met in France and was like, OK, what about to put together a show in Tunisia? He never visited there. He was a very famous French artist. Not French, Tunisian. No, no, no, he's French, but he lived in the US, in New York. But he was attracted by, I think, North Africa because he works a lot with culture, musical instruments. And through North Africa, he was kind of introduced to our own musical instruments. So for him, it's kind of a little window opening into another culture. And that's how my mom opened the gallery. Le Vieux Long Bleu. In 2003. Yes, 2003. OK. And then moving into that kind of post-war, sort of pioneering that post-war Tunisian art. Yes. Or pioneering, bringing it abroad as well, or making it more visible. You mean for works like Armand coming to Tunisia? No, I meant the other way around. The other way around. Yes, yes. So then she started, of course, focusing more and more on artists that are post-School of Tunis, which were like Rafiq al-Kamal, Hedy Turki, all these artists at Fethi, which are post-School of Tunis. And she started showing them in the gallery and then abroad. OK. OK, just a quick check. Is Is Bardot still happening, your gallery up there? Yes, it's open. OK, yes, because I wrote about it in wallpaper when it opened, but then I haven't, I couldn't find it on the website. So maybe it has its own... No, its own, completely. Because I am only a partner and it has like a different identity. And that's important for me because I want to separate actually both of them. Because people think like I'm running the whole show. No, I mean, there are other people. My idea was to actually help these young designers have a space. And then we, the architects of the space in Shasha and another friend of mine, Kansa, who, she's a collector and she's a philanthropist. So she's a patron, so she helps young artists and young designers. We put together this project, but it's completely separate from the gallery. So it has Bardot collections on Instagram and it has its own website and they operate as another company. But we are in the same building. Yes, and but Shasha is sort of the creative director. She is the creative director. Yeah, she's running the show with Kansa and I am involved in like introducing artists. And like the project we did with Ayman Yanbarki. So he's an artist of the gallery, works with drawings, works on paper. But when introduced to Bardot, he produced a beautiful series of ceramics. So that was the idea of, because for me, Bardot was, how can you make also art kind of accessible at the same time, like unique pieces made by artists, but affordable, like young collectors can acquire in Tunisia, because obviously price, like price range is very important when it comes to collecting in our part of the world. And I think with this initiative, for example, for Ayman, it was quite interesting because you could get one of his ceramic bowls, which are unique pieces, but really a fraction of the price of his jewels, I mean, of his drawings. And we wanted to check, so the Ibrahim Mahama show is still happening. No, we postponed it to 2027, actually. He was extremely busy. So we, instead of Ibrahim Mahama, we have Mbarek Bouhchichi, who's a Moroccan artist we worked with, currently actually showing in Sharjah, Dienan. And Mbarek Bouhchichi, yeah. OK, so yeah, it's a solo show that we are putting together, curated by Baya Osmani from MoMA and Omar Barada, who's an independent curator based in New York. So this is at the same time, but it would have been the September, October 25th. And so then I realised that that is to coincide with Dream City. Exactly. And so totally like separately and on a side note, Selma, I must say, yes, I really want to go now, so I'm going to write the press thing, but maybe we can talk about it. Maybe I could also cover like the show. Anyway, yeah, definitely my point. But because we were talking about how exciting it looks. Yeah, it's unique. It's honestly an initiative that I support personally. I think they're doing an amazing job. And every two years, it's a struggle, obviously, with every project like Dream City in a country where things are not, where things are dysfunctional, basically, and culture comes last, is never a priority. So for them, every two years, it's a rebirth. And it's super interesting because the layout, the way they do it, and the public that actually attends Dream City is extremely interesting, you know, for music and dance and visual arts. So it's very diverse and dynamic. I think it's an amazing project. And it changed, actually, it was like a catalyst to change the arts scene in Tunisia. Yeah. And also the fact that, you know, it's located in the Medina, which has that whole sort of almost agenda of, like, just, you know, really, like, inviting all the people who live there as well to sort of take part, if I've understood correctly. Completely, yeah. So they take part, actually, while they're preparing for Dream City. And Dream City continues, I mean, Dream City and the charity, which is named La Rue, they continue to support these kids and this community all year round with workshops and activities. So there are, for me, what I like about it, it's not just every two years and a one-off, there is a whole process and vision that is implemented over the two years and that affects and attracts the community. And that's the impact you want to have as an arts centre or as a festival. Or we ended up doing the same because, I mean, I never thought I'd be part of developing a community around the gallery in a sense that you become almost also an arts centre, but we're not, we are a gallery, a commercial gallery. But then, yeah, it goes beyond actually your, yeah, let's say the standard tasks of a gallery and a gallerist, because you are in the specific context and you see the limits of this context and you try to push boundaries and have an impact. Because you cannot be in a city like Tunis, for example, or Casablanca, or Algiers, and try to just be closed and work with the outside world. I could do that because I'm an international gallery. I can be completely working like almost like a, how do you call it, like in a bubble, but also like, you know, I will find the word, an offshore kind of entity. So you are there, you produce whatever you're producing with your team, but everything is actually being exported, you know, everything is for the outside market. But that's not at all what I, I mean, I would feel really bad doing that because it's not at all me and not what I want to do and not my vision. We are very inclusive and for me and my team and opening the gallery in Tunisia is also to move things, to shake things and to make sure, yeah, to make sure the public, first of all, we need to cater for our public and then the outside world. And especially commercially, obviously, it has to happen from outside because it's very difficult to maintain and sustain a business, a gallery in Tunisia only with Tunisian collectors. So we'll talk about all of this in more detail as we go through. Just, there was one thing in your email, you mentioned the four-handed work context. Do you know what, can you just say a little bit about that? Yeah, so that's another, so we've talked a little bit, we can go back to the diaspora artists who are based outside coming back to Tunisia and I can like talk more about it because then it involves, obviously, site-specific projects, a lot of emotions, because most of these artists like come back for the first time to work in Tunisia with Tunisian teams in like, in a country like they know and they don't know, to be honest. So it's kind of finding also the identity across, while putting together the show. I think it's unique. That's how I feel and that's my conversation with these artists when they come to Tunisia. Regarding the four-hand work, we tried it recently with Catalina Swinburne, who's a Chilean artist. She came in residence and I tried to connect her with another artist we are working with, he will be shown in the list of artists. His name is Mohamed Amin Hamouda. He's an artist based in the south of Tunisia in a city called Gebes, which has an oasis by the sea, but it's a city that is completely destroyed by the phosphate factory and chemical factory that they have for a very long time. So the whole city is sick, basically, from people to plants to the environment. So it's like, it's a case study. And Mohamed Amin, so this Tunisian artist, works from palm trees, palm fiber, everything comes from the oasis and makes his own paper, his own installation, all coming from the oasis of Gebes. So he's kind of, I call him the saver of the oasis, because in a way he's like giving another life and another voice to a completely dead place in terms of, I mean, economically, but also it's a serious environmental case. I was traveling with Catalina, which I do a lot with my artists, is when they come to Tunis, we travel and we try to meet people, meet communities, look at things, look at architecture, look at the landscape. And then it's for me discovering my country through another, the artist's eye, and for the artist to also understand better who we are and where we are and the country, and try to work, at least one of the works should be site specific, should be related to the trip to the residency in Tunis, because for me it's important also to work that way. So she met Mohamed Amin and they decided to work together, as I said, it's really four hands, he produced a specific paper made of, as I said, the palm fiber, and she stayed with him in his studio, they worked together on this paper, and then as she's famous with her weaving, cutting and using her cape, that you can see in the website, if you can go to the exhibition, Devotional Landscape, you will see the piece, and they worked together to create this artwork that is signed by both of them, by both artists. So that's for me something quite interesting, because for a Tunisian artist to meet a Tunisian artist based in the south of Tunisia and to make an artwork is, I mean, if we don't make it happen, it will not happen, and I think when it happens, it creates, I mean, we documented the whole process, we have an amazing video about it, and it created really a very interesting bond between both artists, and conversation started developing with both of them to even create more work, and maybe develop further their practices while they are kind of communicating, and that's something that also for me is very exciting. So we are trying to do this kind of thing. So that's the four-handed work, and that's when you bring two artists together and they create. Yes, so before, we're going to move into our origin story, which Nisreen will start on, but just, I mean, you know, I would say maybe if we talk about things, and then, you know, you don't feel comfortable, you can tell us after, but, you know, can we talk about Palestine, if it comes up, and can we call it what it is, genocides, or is there any, you know, your fine with all of that? Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, because I just, I might have a question about sort of working through this these last 20 months, which obviously has been totally sort of surreal, and then the government, the political situation in Tunisia, again, if it comes up, is it something, again, you can tell us if you then don't feel comfortable. I think, yeah, maybe we move into the, I'm just aware, because we're not on multi-channel, Nisreen, that we must be particularly careful of not reacting, because we won't be able to phase it out, will we? Any kind of sound or whatever, I have no idea. So let's, no, but like the AI takes up certain sounds. Well, okay, but yeah, let's not, because you get it in text form, you know, right, so let's lay out, okay, we'll just try and do minimal reactions, maybe, if you don't mind, we'll just go like, we'll nod vigorously, instead of making sounds. Yeah, do you want to just move into, or did you have more of a background? Just quickly about using technology in fact, it's quite interesting to think about, you write, you talk about how there's very, very small collector base in Tunisia, I live in Indiana, and so often it's got exactly the same problem, and how you're working towards building that collector base, and just about how you do that, but whether you also use technology to build that collector base, or how that is used within the art market as well. Obviously, yeah, as we said, Tunisia, very small country, very small collector base, but I need to say that most of the collectors that are in Tunisia are very serious collectors, in the sense that they will follow the practice of the artist, and they are friends of the gallery, they support the program, they are very involved in the gallery, so that's something also very special, so they are really very supportive of what you do, even though only a few of them, only a few collectors. For us, what opened doors was two things, so one, art fairs, so the traveling to art fairs, and two is when we discovered this preview ideas through our archaeological system, and that you can kind of send to everybody on WhatsApp and on email, and then you see people's reactions, because when I started this job, I never thought I would buy an artwork without seeing it, I mean, I've never done it before, I do it now, but for me, I love that conversation with the galleries, and I love going to the gallery, and I love seeing the show, or going to the fair, discovering the artwork, looking at it, like, close, but since COVID, everything changed, we thought it was the end of us, of the gallery, because how would we sell if we cannot move, if we cannot invite people to the gallery, so, and then, you know, something come up, and this preview being distributed, and collectors entering and acquiring the work, and I was so nervous, I remember at the time, I was telling them, listen, you receive the artwork, if you really don't like it, please, you just have to pay the shipment back, and I take it back, because for me, it's important that when you buy an artwork, you receive it, and you're so happy about it, and it's like, you feel the emotion of owning the artwork, I think, for me, it's important, it's an important journey with the collectors I work with, it's never a one-off, or it has to be like something that you develop together, a collection, we work on it together, yeah, but now, I see that even before fairs, everyone is sending previews in advance, everything is kind of done sometimes before the fair, or before the show, I mean, pros and cons, you're much more comfortable when you do that, financially, it's like, you go to the fair in a stronger mood, I think, you've done some sales before, so you're good, you're confident, you're good, and same with the exhibitions, but okay, yeah, so Lucy, just, your voice is slightly, yeah, can you make sure the thing is, yeah, because I can tell that you're slightly coming and going, okay, yeah, so welcome, Selma, lovely to have you on our podcast, let's begin by talking about, or can you tell us a little about your early life in Tunisia, where you grew up, and a little bit of background around your family, yes, thank you for the invitation, I'm very happy to be here, discuss my journey with you, yes, I grew up in Tunisia, in Tunis, and spent most of my childhood in Tunis, then moved to the UK at the age of 22, so as you know, my mother is a gallerist, so I really grew up in that environment, where I was meeting artists, and all the time, spending weekends in artists' studios, or artists' homes, spending a lot of time in my mom's gallery, so that's something I used to do after school, or during holidays, we didn't travel much, I mean, we traveled maybe once a year, twice a year with my family, and usually to visit shows, museums, with my parents, but we were spending a lot of time in Tunis, and with my mom, not taking actually enough holidays, she was a workaholic, and I remember, now I say it, because at that time, I really thought that everybody was an artist, because I was only meeting artists, I was not necessarily meeting other people, with other jobs, and other careers, so I thought, actually, everyone is an artist, you're spending so much time with them, and for someone that, you know, that doesn't know Tunisia, is not familiar with North Africa, could you describe, you know, what Tunis was like very much? It is a small city, it is growing now, but when I was a child, it was like a small city, where we really lived in a community, where we lived next to the school, we would like, play not far from the school, everything was kind of happening in a single community, but we were traveling a lot in the country, from the north, where you have amazing forests, to the south, where you have an amazing desert, and then in the summer, everyone is by the sea, obviously, Tunisia has more than 3,000 years of history, and layers of culture, from Romans, to Phoenicians, to Ottoman, the Ottoman Empire, so a lot of history, and a lot of things to discover, so we used to go a lot to museums, and to archaeological sites, and that was like, kind of our playground, because, okay, we didn't have many, let's say, many parks, or many activities, but we were mostly like, kind of discovering these archaeological sites, that become kind of our playground, I used to live in Carthage, not far, so we would play in the ruins, and it's kind of normal for us. And so, your earliest memories of growing up, you know, as you said, around art, and you know, you thought, you know, she thought everyone was an artist, because you were so consumed in that world, you were so part of that world, how did that influence your trajectory into the art world? When I finished my baccalaureate exam, I wanted to go to London, rather than France, because my brothers and my sisters went to France, and most of our, like, my friends, they would go and study in France, because of the language, because it's also for free, and it's very close to me, but my dream was to, because I studied, I decided to study finance, was to work in the city, I was looking at things, for me, like a dream, to come to London and work in finance, so I finished my studies, and I moved to Edinburgh, where I started working in an asset management firm, and that's how I actually moved to the UK, it was not to do art, or to open a gallery at all, but after a few years, I realised that I was not very happy, and I don't think I can continue in finance for too long, why not speak to my mother, see if she's interested to, that we develop the gallery into a city like London, where we can promote artists from Middle East, North Africa, at the time, I remember only one gallery was showing artists from Africa and North Africa, was October Gallery in London, and I thought, okay, it will be interesting, I thought it would be difficult, but I didn't at all imagine it will be so difficult, it was really difficult, so I was kind of, I think it's good not to realise that it's difficult, and that you start it, because otherwise you will never start, so what was so difficult, was it the big hop, you know, you said there was only the October Gallery that represented North Africa, or at least an artist, was it because there was just a very limited understanding of creativity from that part of the world? I think from my side it was difficult because I never really worked in a gallery, and also London is a very expensive city, and I didn't have enough connection, so it was difficult to be kind of nobody, and opening the gallery in London, it took a long time, it took for me, it took exactly five years to be totally recognised and possible, and every year I was closing the gallery, so every year I was like, okay, I don't think I can continue, this is very difficult, this is not sustainable for me, I am not making money, I'm losing actually money, and it's very difficult to sustain the business, but somehow I started meeting a lot of collectors and a lot of institutions that were interested by the programme, and at the same time it was the right time, because auctions were looking at the Middle East, North Africa, and then the whole movement in the Middle East started with Art Dubai, et cetera, so timing, maybe I started a little bit early, but it was, yeah, we did catch up, so we were safe, and that must have been around 2006, or no, we opened the gallery in 2010. Okay, all right, because Art Dubai, yeah, okay, sorry, can I just, just backtracking a tiny bit, can we just talk about, I know we've covered it in a warm-up, but just so we make sure we cover it, can you just tell us a little bit about your mother, and yeah, or do you want to ask that question? Fine, just, just, if we can just talk a little bit about, you know, backtracking a little bit to you growing up, talking about your mother, who first had an antiques and an art gallery, which then became another gallery called L'Union en Bleu, which focuses, well, still on antiques, I think, because I saw them when I was, she had both galleries, they still exist, she has both galleries, and L'Union en Bleu. Okay, and moving into this kind of Tunisian art, Tunisian modern art, yeah, can you talk a little bit just about, about her, her name is Estia Hamdi, she's quite, quite a figure in Tunisian art. Yes, she is, she is, I mean, my mother was, I mean, her gallery, she was the first gallery, talking about the L'Union en Bleu, I can go back to Attica, but talking about the L'Union en Bleu, she was the first gallery to bring international artists to show in Tunis, and also the first gallery to take artists from Tunisia modernism to outside, to outside Tunis. When she started, she, she's a, she, she's a French teacher at the lycée, and then she met a very important artist from the school of Tunis, she's Alida Léra, and that's how she started the antique shop, with her friend, who was also an English teacher at the lycée, and they opened this little shop before Attica, a very little shop in Sidi Bouffin, where they were selling mainly antiques and second-hand furniture, things like that. After that, her friend was not very interested to follow the, the path, and she decided to open her own space, and move to her own space, own gallery, called Attica, and she was focusing on mainly Ottoman objects, Islamic art, and Orientalism, and then grew up into the school of Tunis artists. That's how everything started. Okay, okay, just, yeah, I thought it was interesting, very, sort of, interesting to be in that world. Yeah, I'm sorry. Okay, so you had your gallery in Leipzig, and then, and then you decided to return back to Tunisia after the revolution. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about that? Yeah, I, I didn't go back to Tunisia, I, I continued to live in London, but after the revolution, for me, I saw so many things happening, which I didn't see before. So, I witnessed a lot of public spaces being used by artists, an incredible freedom of expression, completely, like, becoming abandoned, which was not the case before the revolution, and artists extremely enthusiastic about the future, and about what they can do in, in, you know, in Tunis. I was visiting my mom's gallery in Sibus, and my mom was like, you know, next door, there is this convent, and owned by the Vatican, but they are not going to be using it anymore, as a convent. Do you, are you interested to open a gallery here? I know that you have, you want to, like, support young artists, you want to support the new generation here in Tunis, this could be an interesting space for it. I thought, why not? I didn't have enough money to actually open another space at the time, so my mom helped me to first rent the space, and only refurbish the ground floor. We were not able to refurbish the second floor, the first floor and second floor, so we ended up using the, the ground floor, and using the, the first floor as an office, and that's how the journey started for me in Tunisia, and was a turning point, because we started doing, like, working on this project inside this convent that was not a white cube, so it was a patio with this very narrow room, so the architecture is completely different from any gallery you would visit around the world, so every artist arriving to the space, at first they were like, oh, how are we going to work with this space? So, so we ended up, every single exhibition was site-specific, the work would just fit the space, but then outside the space, it was kind of a struggle, but it was a very interesting experience, because we tried to use the space in a very different way, and that's how I realized the impact of architecture and art, so how the space can be the catalyst, actually, for making artwork, so we did it the other way around, but not on purpose, that came like that, so it was really by, by chance, and I enjoyed that process, because it was not, it was an unusual process, and I was very attracted by this kind of different twists and, and things that are unusual, so, so that's how we, we opened the space in Tunisia, and we try, we started collaborating with more and more artists from North Africa, and following their practices, and supporting, and supporting them. And how did that change your vision? How did your, so you've gone from a gallery in London, to another gallery in Tunisia, how did that, how did your vision evolve over that time? First of all, for me, it was important when I, when I decided to open the gallery in Tunisia, to have strong artists around me from North Africa, so they were kind, we were thinking together, I was not thinking alone, I still think it was like a really a vision of, of, of a group of people, of a collective, I would say. I was the gallerist, but then the artists, they were also my friends, and together we tried to, to have a vision that would look inside, but also outside, inside to, like, our community, and the, the ecosystem in Tunisia, but also outside, so our voice would cross the Mediterranean, and, and, and go everywhere, and we tried, we tried, it did work, I think, but, and, and that changed also my relations to the artists, because in London, it was more, I would say, we would put together the shows, it was like, or more, some meetings, we would put the exhibition together, discussions were not, like, dialogues and discussion were not very present, I would say, but in Tunisia, when I go there, it was a lot based on conversation, dialogue, and really understanding how we're going to make this work. We are in a completely different environment, we are kind of trying to create something that, yeah, was not created before, there is no kind of a model to look at, so we did it really, kind of, in a very organic way, so, and I, and I guess the energy after the revolution, you know, you said that, you know, there was this newfound creativity that was happening across the city, and I guess that must have had a real impact on the conversations that you were having with the local artists, you know, I mean, you know, when Libya's revolution happened, I think that happened for about five minutes before it all went bad again, you know, so, but, you know, it's quite, it's quite nice to hear that in Tunisia, you know, that, that kind of, you know, that there was time for that, that creativity to really grow. Yes, that's, that's absolutely right, because also, when it was our first revolution, I mean, I've never lived another revolution in my life, so we were kind of, with the artists, as I said, I started the gallery with the art scene generation as me, so we were, like, full of hope, and we were at the same thinking that we are, we, we have our kind of future, our destiny between our hands, we're going to shape our future, and we're going to shape the future, the culture, the future of this place. We really believe we will be able to do that, and that the country is going to completely change. It, it took us a very, very long time to realize that, okay, it's not as, I think, as we thought it is, or it's not as easy, but as you said, we were able to achieve things, we were able to put together a lot of initiatives, really interesting exhibitions, projects outside the galleries, and as I said again, it's really this conversation that we had, and this dialogue that we had, that shaped a lot of our personality, and who we are today. We are disappointed, for sure, all of us, because it's kind of, at some point, we thought, okay, yeah, it's not moving the way we thought it will be, but the good thing is, we were able to make sure our voice, and the way we presented our artists to the outside world, attracted a lot of institutions, and a lot of collectors from around the world, and we were able, really, to create conversations, but also relationships with important institutions interested on what was happening on the, for me, was like a laboratory in Tunis, so we succeeded in doing that. We still have a lot to do, and we insist, and we will, like, still be very opinionated, but also very attached to our first vision, even though, as I said, things are difficult, but, you know, it's very difficult to understand politics and economics. I mean, I did study economics, but the Tunisian case is a difficult one. That's a degree in itself, probably. Exactly. So, then, so, despite all these, I mean, you know, despite the challenges, though, you've done something quite amazing, which is that you started, you opened this, you decided to relocate within Tunis, and in 24, January 2024, you opened your own U-Build gallery in, you know, L'Expois. So, the business district of L'Expois, is that how you would call it? Yes, it is, L'Expois, yes. So, kind of, in a way, a sort of gamble, in a sense, not a conventional area for galleries, which was sort of intentional. Also, I mean, can you talk a little bit about that decision of going from the kind of almost domestic spaces of the convent in Sidi Bou Said to this more museum gallery U-Build, and why and how? Yes, at some point, as I said, in the gallery, I work a lot with the artists, and we talk a lot with our artists, and it's a really strong relationship, where we listen to each other, and when I was discussing it with some of the artists, they were like, Selma, we are coming back to this space, like for the third or fourth show, we are, we're running out of ideas in terms of scenography, how we're going to use this space again, because we tried all options, as I said, it's a very tricky space, and at some point, it's kind of run, everyone kind of run out of ideas on how we're going to use this space again for another show, and attract, and have it like a, have a successful exhibition, and for the artists to be totally satisfied with the show. So, I felt like maybe it's about time to move, and to think of another space, so I was thinking, okay, let's look for like an old space that we would refurbish, and I had a budget, obviously, and I had to work with my budget. I was almost like for, for, for a long, for like months and months, driving with my car from one area to another, and trying to see where should I relocate. It took me a very long time, I visited like areas in the morning, in the afternoon, at night, going back, and then somehow, I felt, okay, this could be an interesting place, because it's not far from the airport, it's close to Carthage, it used to be a very interesting town, where we have a port, which is one of the most important commercial ports in Tunisia, and it also, we had the Maltese community, the Italian community in La Goulette, the Jewish community in La Goulette, it was kind of so, such, when I was a kid, because I used to go there all the time, a very, like a melting pot kind of area, and I did a connection with who I am, really, because I, I traveled, I met people from everywhere, I'm able to live anywhere, so it's, this area, like, it has something to do with me, like, and I thought, I think it could be interesting to use this space. Obviously, we couldn't be in La Goulette city, because it's like, it's an old city, and not many spaces are available, but there is this industrial area right behind the town, where, when I visited, like, you have a lot of schools, like, art, sorry, car dealers, boat dealers, like, I mean, name it, anything, and then you can find in that area, and I thought, okay, I'll, I can afford the land, and I'll build the purpose of gallery, that would be, like, this space in North Africa, in terms of, I mean, the way I'm going to build it, it will look like a museum, but it's a gallery with all the standards, in terms of lighting, and height, and facilities, etc. So, for me, it was a dream, basically, I didn't know, would I be able to do it, and then I started looking for financing, and obviously, the bank didn't understand my project, who would invest in a gallery, so I was like, obviously, every time, I was like, okay, I don't think it's going to happen, I don't think it's going to happen, and then, at the end, I ended up getting my mortgage, and building the space, which, for me, operates today as a gallery, as an art centre, as a space of dialogue, we have a fantastic, also, bookstore, we have the basement that we are using for talks, and discussions, and projections, and then, and that's why I like, I like that space, where ideas can, like, come in, come out, and we realise, and we can make things happen, we will talk about but we will make them happen. That's my frustration with, for example, in my country, is we talk about so many things, and I see all these politicians, and all these meetings, and all these plans, and all these ideas, but you never see them happening. I think that's the transition between thinking, and making them happen. So, if we think of ideas, and we talk about them seriously, we need to deliver. For me, that's important. The end result is the most important thing, because we can talk until, yeah, the end of our lives, I think, and then you don't realise anything, so you just disappear without any action, without any impact, nothing. So, that's what I like about this new space. It's really this conversation, people coming, also people, the public coming to this space, and feeling they are of, they own the space, they are part of the space, they're part of the experience. Yeah, I mean, I wanted to ask you about, because I visited it when it first opened, and I mean, I was impressed, you know, it has a little garden, little fruit trees, it has a sort of an area where you come in, where there's a bookstore, where you can have a coffee, and then this space, which is, I think, three floors, but 2,500 square metres of actual exhibition area, I think. Exhibition area, exhibition only, we are around 1,600. Okay. And then you have the office, the storage, and the bar door space. Okay, so bar door is for the collectible design. Design, exactly. Upstairs, but so, and the potential to do two shows, because you have this kind of space. Yeah. Separate, but so, because of the area it's in, can you talk a little bit about who is frequent? Are people coming off the street? Is it being frequented in the way you wanted? Also, the talks, and how is it evolving as a space? So, what's really happening is there is a community that don't necessarily live in the area, but interested in contemporary art, or interested in art, curious to find out about a specific show, or a specific talk, or want to have access to a book, so they would come. And they could spend really like a good number of hours in the space, between like the design space, the gallery space, and if they want to read a book, or drink a tea, or coffee, and whatever. So, it's, that's a community that kind of knows about the space, and interested by contemporary art. Then you have so many schools around the area, so people like kind of driving by, curious to see, okay, what's this building? The building stands out, because it has like a specific architecture, which with Shasha Atallah, the Tunisian architect, we tried to build this space with Tunisian references to architecture, to sustainability, and environment-friendly kind of space. So, that was for me also very important, that the space is built in Tunis, and it's connected to Tunisian know-how, and the team, the builders, everyone was Tunisian, to put together this project. Talking about the garden, for me, was important to create a Mediterranean garden, and to have, because in industrial areas, usually people try to build as much as possible with all concrete, and no garden. We really wanted to have the garden. I wanted to have my olive trees, because I come from a family that we produce olive oil and olive trees, so it's part of my life. And the back was full of fruit and trees. So, for us, for our team to get fresh fruit. So, we're still waiting, we just have a few oranges and two apples. It'll take a while. I think, yeah, it takes time. So, yeah, so the space is, as I said, it's sustainable, we have solar energy, the water is also, we use the rain water to use it in the space, so everything is environmentally friendly, and that was the purpose. Going back to the public, so we have, as I said, the community of people working there, in offices, and also schools, that are slowly visiting, because somehow to enter a gallery space, some people are, maybe it's not for us, maybe you have to pay for the entrance, maybe, so they do ask questions, they ask themselves questions before entering a gallery space, rather than a supermarket, you know. So, that's why, I mean, there's a number of people coming in, once they come the first time, they become kind of, oh, we will come back to the next show, please add us to your mailing list, etc. So, it's quite interesting. Also, what I found quite interesting is people coming from abroad, because they heard about the space, they heard about planning a weekend in Tunisia, it could be a fun program. So, a lot of people are coming, and it's incredible. I never thought that people would just come for a weekend, see our show, that's the priority, and then visit the museum, the cottage, of course, the medina, and some studio visits. So, the place becomes kind of an attraction, people would visit us. So, I didn't know it will really end up being so important for the local community, but also for visitors coming. Yeah, and I think it's really satisfying. Yeah, and I mean, yes, and it's interesting because of this area that it's in, that it's a bit sort of what I feel you try to do, which is in a way kind of remove the kind of elite label, or sort of trying to kind of make art more democratic or accessible. And on that note, I just wanted to ask you a little bit about the residency project, because that's something I experienced also, when I visited. We went to visit, you have this workshop in an area called Bad Lazare, and interesting area, because it's a sort of ex-rural area, isn't it, which is sort of, there's housing coming up, there's quite a lot of kind of communities, is it from the Ivory Coast, or living there in Africa, it's a very, very interesting, quite raw, but quite vital area. But again, an interesting area for a workshop, and there you run a residency, I mean, you run residencies, and the artists who come can use that space to work on. So, for instance, when I was there, Nidal Shamek was doing the exhibition, and he had prepared some of his work there. I mean, can you talk about just the residency programme, the importance of that, in the sense of sort of providing opportunities, nurturing artists, but also doing it in an area that maybe wasn't completely obvious? Yeah, the residency, for me, is a very important part of our vision and our programme. I think having the gallery kind of imposed the presence of the residency for many reasons, because at the beginning, it was, we were having, we were struggling kind of moving art around, because of some bureaucracy at the Tunisian end. So, I was inviting artists and residents to produce works for their shows in Tunis, and then avoid any shipping costs and any, like, the paperwork. So, honestly, the idea at the beginning was more, let's say, that's how it started. I think we read those as very high taxes. Taxes, but also it can be delayed, they will always ask you for more paperwork, you know, it's a very bureaucratic system. So, the administration is bureaucratic, and that's something I don't think it will change anytime soon. So, what do you do? Do you just, yeah, stay there, wait and watch, or be proactive? Obviously, for me, you need to always find solutions to anything. So, we will find a solution. We started this residency. How we find the area, a friend of an artist of the gallery had a studio there, and I was visiting him, and I was like, oh, you're alone in this area, no artists are, like, around, no one is around it there. So, what about us also opening a residency space, a studio here, and maybe we will try to also convince other artists to take studios in this area, because it's not very expensive, it's still accessible, but then, of course, it's kind of a back office of La Marsa, which is a very chic by the sea area, and all the people actually work, all the workers that work in La Marsa, they actually live in this area. So, it's a very working class area, and construction are kind of unfinished, unfinished, no authorizations, like, they build the way they want to build, but informal, informal, yeah, everything is informal in this area, and it was quite interesting, actually, to discover informality, it's actually fun. So, we had this space where we're inviting artists in residence, so usually artists from abroad would come at the beginning and produce work in the studio that could be exhibited at the gallery, or we can do an open studio and present the project. And then, slowly, we also try to include some Tunisian artists that don't necessarily have a space to work, have a project they need to deliver, and they need help with production. So, then we started also working and supporting artists that are not represented by the gallery, but they are part of our ecosystem, and that's, for me, my, I mean, we take some money from the gallery that goes to the studio, to the residency, to support this kind of initiative as, for me, like a patronage, kind of, yeah, giving back or trying to help the community and artists who are not able to produce works, or have a project, or have a space. I mean, we look at the project, if we are convinced of the project, and we feel that, really, the artist needs the space, and needs help, then we are here for that. So, the space then becomes also hosting Tunisian local artists, and that's how we are now managing the residency space. So, sometimes, as I said, artists have more projects, and others, they really come to produce, like Nidal, to produce their show, like Mounia Benhamouda, she came, she produced her show there. Now, we have a young artist that we invited, she's Tunisian, we invited her, her name is Essa Benalisa, to produce a project. Now, we are inviting her for a solo show at the gallery in July, and she's been also selected for the first Tunisian artist invited in Gadworks Residency here in London. So, that, for us, how things, kind of, are growing, are growing because we are putting a lot of effort, and because we have support, we have a support system, we have connections that trust our program, and they are happy also to support us. So, it's very nice to feel that, actually, the program is supported and appreciated outside the country. And is that residency program still curated by Salma Sassoumi? Not anymore. So, Salma now is doing Fila, so she worked with us, and she was, she started the residency with us. Now is Rasha Akhniri, who's another young curator that started working with us a year and a half ago, which is another role also about the gallery I need to mention, is that in Tunisia, we don't have, like, you don't find necessarily trained technicians, many curators, or, like, these are all new jobs, new opportunities. And also, our role at the gallery is to make sure we have this younger generation in the process of learning how it works inside the gallery, because even if we are based in Tunis, for us, we operate like any gallery in Paris, New York, or London, it's exactly the same thing. We do things, like, in a very professional way, and I want this new generation also to kind of prepare the road for them, for them to run, and to, maybe when they open their own gallery, or, yeah, or create their own art center, or, so at least, yeah, we make sure when they work at the gallery, they learn, and they can use that knowledge for their own career later on. So, that's also another part of what we do. So, yeah. Yes, I'm aware of time. How long have we got? Well, in theory, just, I mean, we've got to think a bit longer. Do you have to go? No, I'm good. Do you want me to try and get you some water? No, I'm okay. I'm good until, like, I can be here until one o'clock, if that's okay. Perfect. Okay, but then we'll have, so, okay. Well, no, I mean, yeah, I'd rather have more, and we can jump to snippets and things like that. So, that's good. So, thank you. But then, well, so then, just on, just if I could ask you, then, just, I mean, I was interested, when I went to Tunisia for the opening of your, you know, new space, just to kind of see all these different organizations. So, you've mentioned La Rue, that does the Dream City Festival. There's also, you know, La Boîte, Tendre Viste, Central. Is there another festival called Jaoux? Yes. This is another, which they have the art center, actually, in Parladrac, also. And, oh, that's how you pronounce it. Can you say that again? Parladrac. Oh, okay. I butchered that. So, it's English. It sounds like half French, half Arabic. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, yeah, it is a space that is initiated by the Kamel Lazar Foundation, and they also have the photography festival at Viennese called Jaoux. Okay, yeah. So, I mean, I was interested by, I mean, there is a real artistic fervor. I mean, the sort of, I suppose the kind of line that, you know, drew through it was that, you know, a lot of it is private collectors, patrons, philanthropists. There's not really a lot of, you know, I mean, relying on government, if at all, money. But there was a lot of very interesting work. Can you talk a little bit about that, just evolving art scene and how, you know, what you're doing sort of ties in with it, but how much it's, how diverse it is, and how, you know, I mean, Dream City in particular, the festival that takes place in Medina, I thought was just such a fascinating project. Yeah. What is very interesting about Tunis, I think, is this strong ecosystem and community of patrons and philanthropists. So, for us, as a gallery, we exist, but also we need to exist within an ecosystem, as I explained earlier. And it's important to create this link with the other entities and to create this exchange and conversation and dialogue, because we would help each other develop together. And we learned something, I think, in Tunisia, I mean, it's just a bit like in the US, you're not going to ask the government for anything, you just do it yourself. I think it's much more efficient, and you will do it your way, and you will implement your vision. So, that's why you would see all these private initiatives. So, there are collectors, patrons that create these art centers. So, La Voix is created by Fatma Akilini. She's a collector, and they own this pharmaceutical company, and they started this space for their own employees. So, they would visit this exhibition and bring their kids, etc. And then the whole idea grew, and it became really accessible to everybody. And everyone can visit this space, exhibition, and they also started CAZMA, which is another festival, video festival in the south of Tunisia, in Gebes, where I told you one of the artists is from there, Melek is from there, he's the artistic director. And that's a fantastic, also, festival that takes place in May, focused on video art. And it's like a yearly festival. Then we have the BSSNF, which is another art center initiated by the Kamehameha Foundation. Same thing, but it's a private initiative, funds come from the foundation, and they have a very also interesting program. They also started the residency program an hour away from Tunis, in an area called Outik, which is an archaeological site. And they started this residency program as well, outside Tunis. The Trente de Busses is also initiated by a Tunisian important collector and patron, used to be the Philips factory that he refurbished into an exhibition space for MediaTek, one of the best in Tunisia, and a residency space. So it is a fantastic building, and we do a lot of initiatives with them. We actually really try to work together on shows, for example, when we want to expand the show in the gallery, we can talk to them and try to maybe work with them, using their space, etc. So there is a lot of synergy, I would say. Then, of course, Dream City. Sankral, also initiated by a collector, Emna Benidir. So she started also the space in a warehouse in downtown, helping young artists show their work for the first time. And also she, because she's in downtown, the public is completely different, and it's really interesting how they're also developing the ecosystem there, because Sankral is next to Trente de Busses, and both are in downtown, along, not far from Dream City headquarters. So all these initiatives, I think, made Tunis, the city, a very vibrant cultural city. Because, as I said, you can come for a few days, and you basically will not stop, like so many things to see, and so many people to meet, and they're all exceptional people. And amazing food to eat. Food, for sure. Whatever you, yeah, we talk about... The food is so good. A lot of tuna, but I really like tuna. But I just thought the food was so good, and the street food. Yeah, and actually it's part of our program, because we also add this gastronomy tour, where you can discover food, and discover markets, and why you are going to these art centers. Because it's another, actually, yeah, it's another creative industry as well. So I think people would travel for food, would travel for an exhibition. I mean, I know it sounds sort of really silly, but I'm half Italian, and my family's in Rome, and I, you know, when I came to Tunisia, I took the flight from Rome, and it was less than an hour, and I sort of couldn't believe I hadn't been before. I mean, it's an hour from Rome, which is, I mean, so a lot of Italians do go, but I suppose our point, we were sort of saying, isn't it interesting that, you know, Dream City is such an amazing festival, and yet, it's not known enough here. I mean, it came to Brussels last year, Cannes-Allercon-Pigou did a sort of exhibition, but why does it have to take a, you know, a Western institution, you know, doing that? You know, is that frustrating, the fact that people don't know about these, you know, here, say, in the West, or the media doesn't cover these things enough, or that people don't know about them? It is frustrating, but at the same time, I mean, needs are very, like, limited in terms of communication, etc. So they try to invest as much as possible, but yeah, I mean, that's the way it is. It's just not possible to invest more. But I think it's growing slowly, but surely. I think the image of Tunisia as a destination for culture is becoming more and more popular. Obviously, with the UK, for example, it's more difficult because of the language barrier, but there is more correspondence, I would say, with France, because that's historical, and Tunisia was a French protectorate, so there is, like, historically, it is, let's say, more present, and it's part of Tunisian history. But with the UK, I think it improved a lot, but that gives us a lot to do, and a room for improvement. So it's super exciting. But as you know, I mean, communication, our competition is so loose, and it's, like, it's so hard. It's not easy to always have your voice out there, like, on top of the line, I think. That's the motivation for us to do this podcast, actually. You know, I work in communications, Giovanna is a journalist, and, you know, we're just getting really frustrated that, you know, that there was so much amazing creative talent happening in different parts of the world that we're just not getting the recognition that they deserve. Yeah, and that's always the case of the South. I mean, the South is not the best location in terms of attracting attention. It attracts attention when there is a war, or where there are problems, and I thought we are always up at the news, like a page. But when something really interesting is happening, then, I don't know, it kind of gets diluted with all the very big and important shows around the world, and important cultural festivals around the world. But I still think whatever is happening in Algeria, in Morocco, in Tunisia, in Egypt, seems very authentic. Very oriented, like, own communities, and it has an impact. Everything has an impact. Everything is really for a specific reason. So, I believe, yeah, it needs more attention and more, like, a stronger communication. But, yeah, I'm not sure how this can be improved, but we're trying. Where does the majority of your business take place? I would say Europe, the Middle East, but institutions is actually everywhere. A lot in the US, which we saw a lot of interest from US institutions the last three, four years. I mean, museums. Museums, yes. Museum acquisitions from the US, interested in what's happening in Africa in general, and North Africa as well. But I would say I have, like, 50-50 between Middle East and Europe, and European collectors, with some, obviously, from Asia, that we've been developing through Art Basel in Hong Kong for the last six years. So, now we have a few Asian collectors from Hong Kong, from Japan, from Singapore. So, it is growing. It took time, but it is growing for us. The US, as I said, and I think I said that many times, we feel quite far, and it's not that accessible, even though we're trying to somehow reach, we are reaching museums for sure, because they're now coming and visiting Tunisia. So, we did have museum curators visiting Tunisia, Morocco, Algiers, I think. But yeah, it's still in early, like, early stages. And how do you do that? You know, you talked about going to Asia through Art Basel, and almost, is it generating an awareness of Tunisian artists in, or North African artists within the Asian community? How do you do that outside of an art fair? Yeah. So, that's actually the challenge, like, outside the art fair is how do we keep the momentum? Because, okay, we go to the art fair, we do very well, we are there, we promote our artists, we place the work, but how do you keep the momentum later on is to keep this conversation. And that, I think, what we're trying to do with our collectors is to keep the conversation during the year. So, we inform them of the, of what the artist is doing, what the, like, any, all the new projects, museum exhibition, important residency, important acquisition, anything that is kind of happening is put in a newsletter and sent to our collectors to inform them of the actual process and how we are, yeah, how we are developing these practices, because it never stops, basically. So, it's a non-stop process to keep the relationship during the year. All these collectors also visit Europe, so we would see them again at least once or twice during the year in another fair, or they come to London because London is a global platform, so everyone would stop by London at least once a year as a collector. So, we would see them, we would try to keep in touch, and I think that, yeah, that's also what's interesting about a gallery our size, is we are very close to our artists, but also very close to our collectors. The collectors, like, also become part of the gallery program, and we keep the conversation on WhatsApp, we meet when they come to London, we could meet in Basel, if they come into Basel, or we can meet in Paris. So, being very, of course, it's based on transactions, a gallery, that's how we survive, we survive and make our artists survive through our sales. So, it is a commercial gallery, and we live from what we sell, but it's not only based on transactions, and that's, for me, very important. It's also based on human relationships, building these human connections, and building this conversation that would impact, let's say, a much larger community. You talked earlier about doing business over WhatsApp, you know, you're based in Tunisia, you obviously do, you do all the, you know, the big art fairs, you travel to all of those, and you just talked about maintaining those relationships, and maybe meeting new collectors outside of those, outside of the art fairs, and communicating over WhatsApp, because I guess you can't be everywhere, you know. So, could you just talk a little bit more about how that works? Yeah, so, as I said, I mean, our programme is the exhibition programme of the gallery, and the art fairs, the Essains, but also all the Biennales that the artists participate, for example, Charles Jarre Biennale, Sao Paolo Biennale, Aichki, Venice Biennale, so all these important, let's say, dates and meeting points where everybody meets, you would meet curators, artists, collectors, and it's very interesting to meet also collectors and curators in a different context, not inside the gallery, not in a booth, but in a Biennale setup. It's much more relaxed, conversations are, like, really, let's say, more intellectual, and not necessarily focused on a transaction, specific transactions, because when you, when a collector comes to the gallery, you're presenting the show, but obviously, you want to also place the work, so it's part of your speech, that's the way it is. But when you are in a Biennale, I think we're all very relaxed, and we talk more about the practice, and we talk more about the artists, we talk more about the art scene, so conversations, they change, and we can have a broader kind of, as I said, conversation and intellectual exchange, and I think that's also very important, because that's what will kind of nourish us, our brain, and why we do this job, and for artists, it's also important. So, these Biennales, I think, and festivals, and exhibitions outside the gallery, and outside the art fairs, are vital, are essential, because even for artists, when they are invited for a Biennale, they kind of have the green light to do whatever they want, so they can go as conceptual, as, let's say, institutional, and create the installations that are sometimes very difficult to present in a gallery context, but in a Biennale context, or a festival context, it's only for, like, only the number one concern is how creative you're going to be, so you can create whatever you want, and the gallery is always a conversation around what can be in the gallery, in the gallery space, and even more difficult in a booth, where we really need to do, we need to know what we are showing, but the Biennales, and the museum exhibition, etc., I think the best opportunity for the artists to express fully themselves and their ideas. Okay, and just, so the contemporary African art market had a massive trajectory, and Tunisia, part of that bubble that was created, and then we can talk about sort of the relationship between north and sub-Saharan Africa. Yeah, very important, and very political, and very geopolitical, I think, because I've been asking myself this question so many times, and last week we had a talk with Ngone Fol, who's a curator from Senegal, that curated the Dakar of Denali years ago, and we had this conversation because, actually, when we opened our new space, it was very important for me to create these links with the continent. I always see ourselves as Tunisians always looking in front of us, so looking to Europe, looking to the Mediterranean, but very rarely looking back, like kind of looking to the continent. We are part of the continent, we are Africans, but different culture, but the 54 countries are very different. I mean, it's a huge continent, and the histories are very different, and obviously history, you know, dictates the contemporary society, so these are things that you cannot change, it's part of who you are, it's part of your DNA, or which one of us, so we know that we belong to the continent, but we also know that we are very weak in connecting with the continent, that's for sure. First, because politically and economically, we are not strong in that sense, so we have more links with France, with Italy, with Germany, than, for example, with any other country in the continent. Morocco, they have a different vision, and a different political and economical vision, where they have a bank for Africa, they have flights directly from Morocco to the continent, so I think they are developing much better than us, their link to the continent, and you can see this. Us, I think we still, it's still not part of the priority, apparently, but at our very small level at the Gallery, we are trying to position ourselves as an African Gallery, and to create the link with the continent, but always being open to Europe and to the West, because that's how we also want to be, and that's how Tunisia, as a country, it's a very small country, and I remember our leader, Golduba, who brought independence to Tunisia, was saying, we are a small country that needs to be friends with everybody, and open to the world, because we cannot exist alone, and I think it makes total sense. I mean, I always listened to his interviews, because he was a visionary, and he was saying that he will not, for example, invest in arms and in military equipment, etc., but his investment will be in schools, education, in people, and I think that's what made, I think, for example, Tunisia different from our neighbor Libya, for example, because investment was really made in education, and make sure that, okay, let's have educated the population, rather than have missiles, and we anyhow don't have enough money to fight with anyone, so we could fight, we could have like a brain kind of conversation, but not, I think, when you're oil rich, it just changes the dynamic completely, in general, for all his faults, I mean, Gaddafi was all for United States of Africa, you know, he was really, really pushing for that, I mean, it wasn't perfect, but that was, you know, he did have some very, very great ideas, for sure, absolutely, under that not being, like, executed, as we said, a lot of talk, nothing is really happening, but it's true, like, a really strong idea, for sure. I mean, you're talking about something, it's very fragmented, this, the African landscape, in terms of, you know, the connections, I mean, I was just intrigued when I was there, you were talking, I know you've said this before, but just the flights, that there are no flights, I mean, is that, can you, can you tell me, there are no flights in Tunisia to Central or South Africa? No, you cannot go to South Africa, so you need to go to Europe to fly to South Africa, for example, you can go to Dakar, directly, you can go to Burkina Faso, and you can go, I think, to Cote d'Ivoire as well, maybe a few countries, but not enough, I mean, you still need to go back, I cannot go to Ethiopia from Tunisia, I need to go back to Europe, and the flights are expensive, that's also what is quite frustrating in the continent, is the price of tickets, so you cannot move easily in the continent, because it's very expensive. I would love to visit more, and be more involved with entities there, we are trying to do that, so last, sorry, last Dakar, Genal, Russia, our curator was there, so to visit, to try to create this link, La Boîte is now collaborating with a gallery and residency space in Dakar, so there are some initiatives that are kind of taking place. And you've done a partnership with the gallery in Harare, in Zimbabwe. Yes, exactly, so we did this residency for artists coming from Zimbabwe, spending time and showing his work in Tunisia for the first time, and it was his first actually trip to Tunisia, from Harare, and that's very, very common in terms of, yeah, visiting for the first time, or something like that, but that's what we try, that's part of what we would love to develop further, is really this link from, yeah, with African institutions, curators, and, yeah, Genales, etc., so I hope we can do more. And I think that there's just that exhibition, yes, that's now this year, with the Moroccan artist, can you, Barak Barashishi, I think you're doing that in September. Yes, so Barak exhibited already with us a few times, he's back with a new project, I mean, his research is based on the Black community in North Africa, and how, I mean, he's trying to, being part of this community in Morocco, he tried to see how things are in Libya, in Algeria, in Tunisia, and that also would contextualize who we are within the continent, and that's, for me, also very important, because in Tunisia, I mean, there's a mix of, yeah, white and Black, but the majority of white communities, it was quite important to travel with him to Tunisia, and to visit this community, and have an honest conversation about their life, and what they are involved in, and etc. So the project will be very important, and will be very much linked to also the displacement of plants and grains, and how they move from one place to another, so it is really like a colonial displacement of grains. So it's a really interesting approach to this subject, through this grain displacement and movement. So it is curated by Yaron Sen, who's the curator at the MoMA, and the independent curator Omar Barada, that you worked already previously with M'Barak. So I'd love you to come, it's on the 24th of September, right before Dream City, and I think it's going to be quite an interesting project, as I said, we've done so many exhibitions with him, but each time we're like really developing further, but this will be his first project in the new space. Yes, just, oh okay, I just wanted, oh do you need to, are you getting off? No, no, I just wanted to ask, just one thing, you know, this topic a bit of migration, it's something that sort of, I think I was quite aware of when I was there, there were quite a lot of people who had grown up elsewhere, and then had decided, you know, among your staff as well, there was someone who was, I think, grown up in the US, and is now there, yes, and I met other people in that situation, I mean, you know, can you talk a little bit about that process of, well, of this return, which I think is happening, but of course must be punctuated by also difficulty, because you know, economics and everything, but that sort of issue of wanting to be there, and migration, I don't know if I said that very specifically, but you know what I mean. No, no, it's a very important point, actually, because I think for any human, when you're born somewhere, and you grow up somewhere, I don't think you disconnect completely from the place where you're born, I think you believe you will always go back, and that's, I think, yeah, a human reaction, where even if you grew up somewhere else, I think you want to go back and look for your ancestors, and where you come from, I think it's a very natural way of behaving. So, Tunisians, most of them, they keep the link very, very strong with the country, so they all go abroad, and they succeed abroad, and they live in, you know, diaspora, etc., but they come back. So, either they come back to create a business, or they come back to see their families, or they come back to help, to kind of give back, and that's something I've seen a lot, and I respect a lot, because I think it's important to, once we, I mean, I grew up in Tunisia, I studied for free, education for free in Tunisia, when I left abroad, I did very well studying abroad, we had an amazing education back in Tunisia, and for us, and then, okay, you do well elsewhere, but I think in the back of your mind, you think, okay, how can I give back? How can I go back, and just give a little bit back, or have an impact into, like, my community, and my country, and I'm not the only one, of course, thinking like that, a lot of people are, and a lot of people are coming back. It's true that a lot of people are leaving, that's for sure, a lot of people are leaving because they're looking for a better life, they finished their studies, doctors going to France, or going to Germany, engineers, etc., because they need to, they want to improve their life, and that's normal, but I'm sure that these people, at some point, once they, they, like, kind of, settle, and they, and they have, kind of, a strong career, they will come back, and they will help other people, or they will be involved in initiatives back home, that, I think, nobody can, can remove it, and nobody can erase it, it will happen, and it will continue to happen, and it happens, so I'm very, very confident in that point, because I know that we talk a lot about people migrating, and looking for a better life, but I think, everybody does that, I think, even in the UK, people try to migrate somewhere else to have a better life, even in Europe, I think, today, they're trying to go to the UAE, or to go elsewhere, and have a better life, and that's, I think, a human behavior, a normal behavior, but I think there is this idea of coming back, and being involved in your own community, even in your, your little family, and all these people that do help their families back home, so they, the link, I think, will never be detached, I'm talking about some, like, Rania, who's the manager of the gallery, she grew up in the US, and then felt she wanted to, to discover where she comes from, where her parents come from, and I think, after two weeks, she sent her CV, and, and I saw it, and I'm like, okay, come, come on board, and she's been now with us for four years, doing a fantastic job, and really being, kind of, well, let's say, adapted, or well, integrated, yes, well integrated in, in the community, so I think I'm, I'm very positive in that sense. Yeah, I mean, I'm wary of, sort of, romanticizing this, but, you know, like, I know that some of the artists we met, and are on your roster, I mean, some of them, sort of, spend time, you know, in, in two places, you get the idea, like, Ndenne, he spends time, a lot of artists, yeah, but then there was one, we met Samuel, and he is based outside Tunisia, on the sea, yes, and, I mean, I've just, you know, I mean, again, you can romanticize this, but there's something about, sort of, you know, maybe a different pace of life, or being out, you know, that, maybe a, a slower sort of life, that could also be very appealing, I don't know whether I, I don't want to do this, kind of, imposing my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, 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