BM interview on domestic violence (1) (online-audio-converter.com)

The speaker discusses their journey from advocating for left-handed individuals to delving into domestic violence issues, particularly focusing on forced hand-switching and broader forms of abuse. They highlight the intersectionality of survivor experiences and the need for global awareness. Moving to the U.S. for studies furthered their interest in social justice and advocacy, leading to direct service work in Chicago. Their experiences and curiosity drove them to explore systemic problems and work towards social change. The discussion also touches on the speaker's book, which influenced their passion for addressing domestic violence. Because when you're left-handed people, people have very strong bias against it, and I think I remember we started a non-profit at some point, because we just wanted to like create awareness. For left-handed people? Yeah. No way. Yeah. Oh my goodness. And it has been super cool to do that, like, and had a lot of left-handed people from different parts of the country join. I think, yeah, that's what I started with, and they, like, everything else came up as a result of, like, the left-handed part of Africa. Really? Okay. Well, we're going to definitely jump back into that. Yeah. It's fun. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. And so, okay. I had just started this, and so that, obviously, was, you know, we can keep it off the record, but I do really want to circle back to it, so I was excited to be here. So, just to begin, I'll just say, hi, everyone. My name is Nicole Ressler. I am the audio and visual co-chair for The Gate, UChicago's political review, and I have the pleasure of interviewing Veeam today. Veeam, would you like to introduce yourself to our lovely listeners? Sure. Thank you, Nicole. My name is Bisola Miriam OBM, but not Baby Mama. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks to The Gate, and thanks to the David Axelrod grant for making this day happen. Wonderful. Well, just to jump right in, I understand that this was a passion project of yours, and we spoke a little bit about how this all started. Can you give me a little bit of a background on your project and how it came to be? Good question. So, I think my interest in domestic violence work, from research, to advocacy, to storytelling, spans over 10 years I've been doing this work. I think what really led to this project, or taking this off, was two things, actually. So, I think the first thing is that I found that survivors have intersecting experiences, and there are also survivors who ... So, there's a stereotype that survivors must look a certain way, or they have a certain body, or gender, or identity, which I wanted to explore. I wanted to find out if it is really true that survivors do look a certain way, or there's a particular gender, or a particular identity that a survivor needs to have to be able to meet the criteria, or criterion, for a survivor. I also wanted to explore the intersectionality of experiences. I found from my research, and from even working with survivors in non-profit, within the non-profit slash advocacy space, that actually these people have intersecting experiences. But, it's one thing for you to explore an issue from just a very niche, or small space. I mean, just working with one non-profit doesn't entirely help you explore a problem from a global sense, right? So, I think the curiosity was, one, trying to understand if it is really true that survivors must look a certain way, or have a certain identity, or body. Secondly, to also just find out for real if survivors do have diverse intersectionalities, or if there are other experiences that cause those people to be similar, even though they may be in different parts of the world. Really. You mentioned helping out with a non-profit. You have previously mentioned to me, actually, that this left-handedness is a big issue in Nigeria. Is that correct? Was this non-profit in Nigeria, or where was it located? Was that sort of what got the ball rolling on, and what else there was to dig into? Good question. I think we started off the Left-Handed Africa, not even in Nigeria. We started it off as an organization that wasn't going to just be for Nigerians, or for African left-handers. But, I think the name just came from the need to center the African landscape, or with the intention to take it global. The reason is because left-handedness still remains a very big issue within the African space, and even in other parts of the world. I think when I moved to the United States, I see how in classrooms, I was a lecturer or a graduate assistant teaching undergraduate communication classes at the University of Alabama. I saw how the classrooms set up don't favor a left-handed student or a left-handed instructor. I mean, we are in America, right? You would expect that, given the sophisticated academic system, that they should be somewhat different. But, it also helps to further expose the fact that these systems are generally not very aware of the very different human experiences, and the complexity of them all. I think just now, going back to the point, we started the Left-Handed Africa mainly to advocate for left-handers. But, I think in many conversations, we started seeing how abuse in families, or domestic violence in families, exposed people to other forms of abuse, such as forced hand-switching. Imagine that a child who is in a home where there is violence, there's a tendency for the child to experience forced hand-switching, especially when the parents are not leading with love, or the caregivers are not leading with love. Even within school settings, children or young adults still experience this stigmatization. Let's even go back into the society. It's such a big deal. I think from just looking at that very small problem that isn't getting all the attention, I began to wonder how many more families, or people, or individuals are experiencing abuse that we don't talk about. Because, again, forced hand-switching is just one out of many forms of domestic violence. I think that process helped me to see that my work is not to only focus on gender-based violence, or intimate partner violence, which are the buzzwords in the space. I always emphasize that, no, for me, it's domestic violence because, again, it's super broad. I think from doing the work on left-hand stigmatization within Africa, just kind of pushed me. I wanted to explore the bigger issue, which is domestic violence. I found that if we're able to tackle this successfully, because this is even a bigger problem, right? We can get the left-hand stigmatization the needed attention and begin to reduce other systemic issues that cause or perpetrate, or perpetrate rather, forced hand-switching among other forms of family-based violence. Broadly, that's kind of the story. You mentioned you did a lot of this graduate assistant teaching in Alabama. Can you tell me about the transition from working and beginning to get curious about domestic violence in Nigeria and through your left-handers organization? Can you lay out what traveling to the U.S. meant for you in this next step? Good question. Before I left Nigeria, I was neck-deep in advocacy, like neck-deep. Neck-deep from college. I contested for a union election. I was advocating for students. I started from journalism and writing for the press and writing articles on human rights. I think I pivoted into advocacy on campus and then started off the left-handers Africa. I think I wanted to pursue a degree that would allow me to deploy research and innovations in solving systemic problems. I applied to study communication with a major focus in communication for social justice and advocacy. That led me to the University of Alabama. Also, I think I was at the point in my personal journey where I felt I wanted more and I wanted to explore a different culture. I wanted the American experience, which is fun and very challenging, but it comes with a lot of benefits. I wanted to understand systemic issues even from a different lens. Moving to the United States was because I got a fully-funded scholarship to study in Alabama. During that program, I learned about storytelling. I learned about communication for justice, communication for advocacy. Just also being in classrooms with students and talking about intercultural communication, dominant groups, and how people communicate when they feel they have lesser power or when they are muted. I think just muted group theory was one of the coolest theories that I learned. Oh my goodness, I could go on and on about that. I also learned about other theories such as truth-default theory. I think that theory, the muted group theory, the truth-default theory, and just also joining the Poor People's Campaign, traveling to Selma, Alabama, going for justice work in Washington, D.C., COTSE, my network in the state of Alabama, and also immersing myself in that very historic community. All of these experiences further pushed me and caused me to continuously want to pursue social justice work even on a bigger level. I think all of these experiences just helped me see how maybe I should be pursuing a social work degree, right? After leaving Alabama and moving to Chicago, I wanted to be in a space where I could provide direct service. I found that research wasn't enough to solve the social problem. Advocacy in D.C. or at the Capitol, as the case may be, or even just talking to policymakers isn't just enough. What do these populations want? I think coming to Chicago, taking full-time positions with non-profit organizations, pretty much working with domestic violence survivors such as Family Rescue, APNAGA, and even volunteering with community organizations in I-PAC such as the I-PAC Neighborhood Club, the I-PAC Village, and other smaller groups. All of these spaces just continued to fuel my curiosity. Just being able to provide direct service to people and helping to break down that very complex idea of what a problem is to breaking it down to the micro level where I can actually interact with everyday people navigating this very complexity was something I yearned for. Working in these spaces led to this point where we started the whole project with me having to go abroad. It's been an interesting journey, for sure. Wow. There's lots of travel. In that time, you also published a book. I understand this book had a lot to do with your story. It inspired your application, in part, to dive deeper into non-Native experiences with domestic violence. I was wondering if you could give me a little bit of an insight. Your book has a pretty colorful title, How to Kill Yourself. I was reading that in front of my friends. They're like, gosh, Nicole, I didn't know things were going so bad with your boyfriend. I'm just wondering. I personally loved it. There were moments that really made you feel uncomfortable with the reality of certain people's situations and how long they had to endure them. I understand now, moving from your book and those experiences, as raw as they were, and having to seek those experiences through other people and through communities to try to uplift other voices that have been silenced. I understand all of that is additionally difficult. Just to give a little bit of the additional context to those listening about your book, if they haven't been able to read it just yet, how would you sell the book to them? Oh, my goodness. Of course, we want everyone to read it as well, but as some additional context of your research, I'd love for you to, in your own words, explain what it meant to you and what you hope to communicate with it as a lead into this more niche interviews and research in general into this topic. Oh, my goodness. You said that so beautifully, and now I wonder where do I start. I think I would mention a couple of things. COVID, right, something that has to do with environment, with the climate. Just hold on to that thought. COVID-19, 2020, moving here as an immigrant, being a graduate student and a career-driven professional, working in a space, the academia, where people are often unable to, I mean, like it's either you publish or perish, right? And so there is the hard reality of academic depression, which is not often talked about within the academia. So now let's put all of these pieces together. COVID-19 in 2020, moving here as an immigrant, feeling muted or feeling, you know, like an outsider within, and also the complexity of being a graduate student, which is the reality of anyone from any background who is trying to pursue something, do something great with their lives, especially when you're, like, pursuing a fancy degree at the fanciest course, such as the University of Chicago, right? And I think one really part or felt the need to write this book was a set of events that happened during COVID. So during COVID, I moved away. I had gotten fully funded to come study abroad, but I had a visa denial, which, again, it's another complexity, right? Very stressful. So that visa denial caused me to stay longer in Nigeria than I wanted at that time. I was at a point where I was, like, you know, at this phase, I just want to move out of the country, and also because I wanted to get away from an abusive partner at that time. So my education, aspiring to further my education seems like the get out of the jail card for me. And I think then getting that visa denial became a systemic block in reducing my trauma, right? So, you know, we talk about systemic re-traumatization. And so, like, the visa denial made that even worse, and I had to remain in the country. But COVID came. So COVID became, like, the savior, technically, because I had relocated from the city where this abuser was into another. And the good thing that COVID did was you couldn't travel. So this abuser couldn't travel to where I was, right? So there was, like, a border, like a barricade between us in terms of communication. So now, and then the new media came in this instance whereby this abuser continued to leverage digital space to send abusive messages, because they couldn't come to where I was. They couldn't... Was there a quarantine between you two? Like, was there, like, exposure to COVID? It wasn't the exposure to COVID. It was the travel ban. Oh, I see. So because all over Nigeria at the time, because this was during the earlier outbreak of COVID, people couldn't travel to other parts of the country. There was a lockdown. So you have to stay where you are. I see. Just make sure you have food, you have water. Just stay home. Everyone stayed home. And I had moved with the kids to a different part of the country, right? Still within the southwestern region, I had moved to Oshobo, like I talked about in the book. They were in a different part, which was Ibadan. And so that barricade or that, you know, the ban, the travel ban, precluded, made it impossible for them to see me or hurt me or just do what they would normally do. I think the interesting thing is that period helped me to leverage. I started writing more. My first book before this one was written during COVID because I just needed an outlet for all of the stress, the pain, and then I moved to the United States. After COVID was still ongoing, but I could renew my visa. I was able to go back for an interview, got my visa sorted, and then I came here. But it continued. This visa continued to send me messages even as a graduate student. The student status, especially as an international, is dependent on your ability to do well in classes, right? The ability to teach well as a teaching assistant or as a graduate assistant is dependent on your ability to come to class, present yourself, do your best, and look good, and, you know, engage and perform. And so the performativeness that I had to continue to, you know, navigate in this whole process and the fact that I couldn't say I was depressed, right? I said that something about academic depression. I could not say I was depressed. I couldn't say I was hurting. No one would get that. And so the title, How to Kill Your Spouse, came about as a result of the role that new media, the way in which abusers are able to continue to hurt survivors without physically touching them. So they don't need to hit you physically to hurt you or to kill you, literally. Because, again, what they do, especially narcissistic abusers, is they don't touch you. They say things to you. They might leverage new media. They might use technology to hurt you. And they could push you to the point where you actually are either contemplating suicide or you're so depressed that you can't function. And then if you don't die, like, you know, like physically drop dead, you die, like, emotionally. Like your self-worth is gone. You're, you know, like you're not able to exist and thrive. And I think when I started thinking and reconceptualizing what it means to hurt and harm, I started thinking about it from the standpoint of how the court system is so unable to, it's not able to grasp. I think it's not like they don't understand, but there's not enough attention to how digital media or new media remains a major tool in the hands of abusive people. And so they continue to wield that tool or that device to further cause harm. And I think that's how I came about how to kill your spouse. The idea that you're not touching me physically. You're not here with me. But you're messing up with my space as though you were here. Because they were not only, this person wasn't only sending me messages. They were sending emails to professors in my college, to other colleagues, to like students. They did so much. And I remember even when I moved to Chicago, somehow they started emailing my jobs, like the organizations where I was working. I remember when I got to Crown. I mean, like you know how you share milestones about yourself online? You don't know they're following you. And that's the scary part. Like they're somewhere just monitoring your online presence. And that's the thing, right? New media is such a powerful tool, but yet abusers are able to wield it. And survivors don't get justice for that. Because, again, the court system is so convoluted or complicated in a way that the way crime is defined is so narrow. And it doesn't like take into consideration many intersectionalities. And I think, yeah, so it's an ongoing process. The killing is an ongoing process. But I think, and I hope that makes sense or resonates with someone listening. Yeah. I mean, it seems to me like COVID, like the physical limitation of your movement is what contributed to your freedom at first through the work, like the written word. But then social media and the access to these international forms of communication really are what bring life to people who want to reach you for better or worse. And so it seems to me like that was almost a form of stalking. And restraining orders, they may not match. No, they don't match. And I think there's also this concept, in-person armed jurisdiction, like researching into that. It's crazy. I mean, if I could use that word. It's unbelievable how the court system is so narrow. And then they say things like, so physical jurisdiction is such a thing, right, when you're trying to get an order of protection. A court can only grant an order of protection if it has jurisdictional authority over the two parties. So if there's a defendant or the plaintiff and the other party, there has to be a physical jurisdiction over these two people. So imagine someone is living in Kenya and is hurting, and then their partner is in the United States and causing them harm, right? They don't get a protection order for that because the other party or the abuser isn't in the same physical space. Yet we know that space has now gone beyond physical in terms of how dangerous new media or technology-driven spaces have become. Their mental space has been saturated. Exactly so. Which is even worse. Right. How frightening. And so how did you take these experiences, these deeply personal and often disturbing experiences, that maybe even took away from your focus in not only performing well as a student but then having the energy to pursue the research that you then applied to be funded for and supported to fill to the best of your ability through this Axelrod research grant? So could you talk to me about how you began to take that and remarkably repurpose that into energy to speak to different people? Did this start in Alabama and then move back to Nigeria and Ethiopia, as you mentioned, and traveled? I'd love to hear more about that. Good question. I think I realized that if abusers are able to leverage technology, new media, or any other communicative strategies or platform or channels that we, as advocates or survivor advocates or whatever the case may be, should do the same. And there's never a second chance to tell a good story or to just tell a story. Like, there's never a second chance. When you get that chance, just tell it. Keep telling it. And make it go viral. Because virality is so good, even though I think many people, especially survivors, are afraid or worried about virality. But virality, in fact, is powerful. And I think just also what led to the David Axelrod-funded project really started from my understanding of how powerful storytelling is. And I think that started from my advocacy work in Nigeria. We leveraged new media reasonably or largely. We got several TV, radio interviews. And I think I already knew that the media is powerful, right? And so coming to study communication and, like, joining big movements like the Poor People's Campaign also helped me see how powerful the media is, right? And I think that's not how much our personnel it was to, you know, document my experience in the book How to Kill Your Spouse, especially while also navigating my studentship and, like, my work at the university. There was nothing else I could do but to write it because it was so hurtful that I couldn't let it just slide. And I think for me at that time, I wasn't sure if I was going to survive that pain. I just wanted something in writing, something that would serve as a reference point to every pain, every hurt that I was navigating. I mean, like, I was writing the book in the mess. Like, I was literally in the trenches and also writing the book. And so there was no other way out. And I think also I also was inspired by one of my professors who taught us about autoethnography. Because the idea of autoethnography is research. We know research, right? So research is essentially a researcher who becomes the piece of the work. You become the subject of your scholarly inquiry. And I think which is also something that is significantly pushed back in the academia. But I think by writing this story, I was able to – I mean, like, there are different characters in the book. I became Shane. Shane became me. I am Shane. Shane is BM. But in the book, you see them as two different people, right? There's also the therapist, Latoya. And I think there's also the love story with Kim and so many other moving pieces. It's real, right? And I think by writing the pain, I was also able to get creative and also use that as a channel to innovate. There's also reference to, like, some future projections about what this could become. And I think at the time I wrote this, I haven't even conceived the idea of coming to the social work school or potentially going to law school, which is now in the pipeline for later. But I think writing this book was like me seeing into my own future and seeing into the future of what storytelling can possibly become as a tool for change. And I think after writing this book and moving to Chicago and thinking through all of these spaces and opportunities where I've been able to leverage media to join social justice work, and then when I found out about – I wanted to go abroad over the summer, but I knew that I wanted to be able to collect stories of survivors. And I think the next level is to actually put that not just as a Netflix documentary, but as an actual TV series on Netflix. And I think I wanted to be able to start by, okay, now we have this book. This isn't just about you, girl. You have to go out there, do the uncomfortable, and get other people to tell their story. And there isn't so much effort on, one, the role that new media plays in the experiences of survivors, and particularly how the family court system, or largely the court system, is oblivious or is unwilling to recognize the complexity of that and how that can either cause harm for the survivor or even cause harm for the abuser. Because, again, there are situations where the survivor, after being pushed beyond their human capability, could also cause harm, right? And so just thinking through how now there is also the criminalization of people or even survivors or generally people who commit crime, but we fail to recognize how the court system is the reason why there's so much complexity around domestic violence. And I wanted to be able to tell that story. And I knew that the way to do that is through journalism. And so when I checked, I also, before I applied, I checked the story of a previous reporter who wrote about their work a couple of years ago and how particularly they highlighted the experiences of survivors of trafficking. And I wanted to do something, not exactly in that line, but something that would also highlight the unique experiences of survivors. And I think my role as a researcher and advocate, a student at the University of Chicago, and how even after moving here, I have seen how the abusers, they continue to penetrate the system that is, quote-unquote, my sanctuary and sanctuary for my professional growth. And so how then do I ensure that in this whole process, we're navigating this everyday complexity that isn't going away anytime soon, right? I haven't seen my kids in over two years still given the complexity. So it just makes sense to me that, no, it's either we were fighting this fight, right? They are fighting every day to just further put people like us down the rabbit hole. What more can we do than to get out there and keep fighting? And stories are powerful, right? And you never know who would listen or who would hear a story and be inspired to do more work or to even start another movement or create change in their community. And I think just also, I mean, the grants were super helpful and the opportunity is something that has helped me to, like, take this work to the next level, which also has now led to another next level that I'm super excited about. So where did you start? This is so complex and, like you said, there was a lot to dig into. Where did you start with this now that you had just received and accepted and felt excited? I'm sure you were also feeling overwhelmed. And so how did you turn that into productivity? Well, I think I'll make this answer short because there's a lot I would rather love to say. First, when I applied, I wasn't sure if the story was going to fit into what David Axelrod Grants was looking for. But I wanted to just give it a shot because I'm like, no, there is not enough attention on such a unique form of domestic violence and particularly how the family causes them and the role that the family causes them to lead. Aside from the fact that there's not enough attention, right, there's not enough research. There isn't enough creative storytelling or journalistic inquiry regarding that problem. And so that was the fire. And so when I received the acceptance email, I was overwhelmed. And I was like, oh, my God, now I have to do this. And it's the integrity part when you're like, oh, my goodness. I can't just sit in Chicago and just get people on Zoom. I have to be there. I consider the option of just doing it over Zoom, which is convenient, but I'm like, no, it steals so much. It steals from the story. Like I need to go back, visited Nigeria in the process, visited Ghana, visited Kenya, also Ivory Coast, all different spaces with very complex landscapes and systems. And I think just also, yeah, it was a lot to deal with, but I think at the end it was a rewarding process in that, one, my story, the narrative that I provided, the reviewing team was unique, right, and I think just them seeing value in that just was inspiring for me, was motivating. And I just couldn't let them down, and I just couldn't do the work without doing it in a comprehensive way. And I wanted it to be, if not perfect, almost perfect. There's the need to travel. And I think along the line, the good thing is I also got a grant from the American Psychological Foundation, which also helped to defray significant parts of the cost of traveling across these countries, which is now a lot. I feel like it's easier to travel across the United States than to travel across Africa. I don't know. Planes are going down every other day. It's a lot. But I understand. I can't even imagine, but it's wonderful that you received support. Can you give me a little bit more detail as to or begin to describe what these people were like in these different regions? I imagine the through line may have been the same with either a narcissistic type of domestic violence or a physical type of that. Right. Of course, the more maybe commonly assumed or the stereotypical type of domestic violence, you could say. What did you gather, either whether or not some of your research included Chicago non-natives, and then actually traveling and in person conducting interviews, what did they look like? And maybe if you could highlight a couple that stood out in particular or even start to go through some from each region as an example, that would be really helpful. That makes sense. I think recall that when we started off the conversation, you had asked me what was my interest in pursuing this on a global scale, and I had mentioned that I wanted to understand two things. Do the bodies that experience domestic violence, do they look alike or are they similar in terms of bodies and identities or other intersectionalities? And also, I wanted to see, are there diversities in these experiences or in these bodies or in these identities? And so those two questions informed how I approached the work. And even though I had worked in Chicago, I knew that there's a significant portion of survivors, especially career-driven survivors, I emphasized that they don't use traditional agencies or traditional hotlines. I'm talking about like university professors or graduate students. These are not people who would typically call a hotline or go to a shelter. We just kind of just figure it out as professionals. And so I wanted to be able to enlighten the experiences of career-driven professionals. And with that in mind and with my interest in exploring the bodies and identities, my interest in exploring the intersectionalities and diversities, so putting all of this together, I said, you know what? I'll start from Chicago, right? And I started from Nextdoor, not Facebook, not LinkedIn, Nextdoor. So Nextdoor is an app, like you know. It doesn't work like LinkedIn. It doesn't work like Instagram. And guess what makes Nextdoor unique? It's because people talk like they're talking to their neighbors on Nextdoor because it's Nextdoor, right? Because you see people within your neighborhood who like sometimes if you post something or someone writes something on Nextdoor, guess what the app does? It tells you that someone just moved into this community. Someone is now in Woodlawn or in Tide Park. And then you can send them flowers, virtual flowers or leave a comment. So the platform is really community-driven, right, or community-centered. And so I wanted to start. This is Charity Begins at Home. And I think I wouldn't want to just make it all about African community. I wanted to start from Chicago. This is where I live. And this is where my life got even more complicated, my moving to the United States. And I haven't felt the isolation like I felt here compared to when I was home. So I wanted to explore something from within the space. Is it the same or is it different? And so it started from Hyde Park. Interestingly, I didn't even know the person who reached out because the thing I do is I share about my stories. I literally write every other day on my social media platform. So I do have a strong connection with my, I won't call them audience, my social media friends, because it's like a symbiotic relationship. I write, they read, they engage. So we're friends. Like buddies, we're engaged. And so I love that people engage with my story, some of the things I write. And then I posted about receiving the grant. They were all excited for me. And then later on I announced that I was looking to collect stories. They started filling the form. I wanted to screen people. People filled the form telling me where they were. I was super excited to see that people within Hyde Park or within like South Side were even like filling the form. There were a couple of people within the university who filled the form. And the form was asking about their children. So then pretty much it was a screening form. Pretty much asking them, you don't have to disclose your name or identity or sexuality. Why do you think I should interview you? What makes your story so unique that it has to be heard, that I need to hear it, right? And so with that question, people started sharing. And I think it was also, I framed some questions in a way that it was focused on survivors of domestic violence who have had interaction with the family court system. And so there were people who filled the form who actually couldn't do an in-person interview, who preferred to write their story on the form as an interview, right, for protection and privacy. And so I made the form in such a way that whatever you write here could also pass for the interview if you're willing to meet. So it depends on how you want to go. And so at the end of the form, there's also a question of, would you want to share your number? Do you want me to, like, call you? And then we could also carry the interview. So I have someone, a few people within the University of Chicago who completed the form to my surprise. And there was a story about someone who had written their story, particularly how they ended up losing their job from the university because they also had a partner who was also working within the university who was the abuser and had more power within the system and used that against them. And like I said, career driven professionals. They never get the attention or the help when they need it. So it was good to see that piece and also to see another survivor who lives within the community, who shared their story, particularly how they spent so much money, they went bankrupt, their credit score was wrecked in the process of just trying to, like, get access to their kids. And then the partner who is, you know, going all over the place, making life very complicated for them. To date, they are still, like, in that battle. And they have been forced to go through, like, very traumatizing psychological evaluations because, again, the abuser kept saying that they are not mentally stable enough to be able to take care of children. And you also know how, like, the U.S. system is when it comes to kids, right, or minors. And so just seeing things from that lens, I visited Washington, D.C., where I also have some good connections. I didn't collect stories from actual survivors, but I was able to just talk to, like, advocates in the space. I visited Pennsylvania, had informal conversations with some survivors, particularly a survivor who still co-parents with the abuser. Oh, my goodness. And they were just sharing how that is so complicated to co-parent with this person. And they had to just forget about the whole court process of trying to get full custody because it was a lot of money for them, they can't afford it. And when you compare that with a survivor from Chicago who could afford it, over time they got bankrupt, right? They became bankrupt as a result of spending so much money to the point where, right now, the survivor in Chicago is still trying to get a job, or the one from the university who lost their job and had to go. They are a faculty member, for that matter. And I think just seeing this very different angle to the story was enough to cause me to want to pursue further. Because you know how, like, there are layers, and it's just like peeling an onion. Like, you peel this layer, there's another layer, or it's cabbage. Like, you just keep peeling, and it's a never-ending process. But, I mean, there's also the need to, like, draw a line and say, okay, what next? And I think drawing that line was, okay, you know what? At this level, let's take this to Africa, and then we stop, and then we re-strategize and see what happens next. But two things, or a couple of things that I want to highlight quickly with my trip to Africa because of time is, I add the assumption that because I am African, that I would be accepted in every part of Africa, and that my work is so amazing, and also got funded, yay, by David Axelrod grants, that people would be willing to share their story with me. They trust you right away. Right. Exactly so. And that I come from the United States, right? And I think, of course. Not offline at all. And I think the power balance, so, like, there was a power play in question. The idea that people were like, okay, now, you're not really from here anymore. Like, you're in a different climate where you have more opportunities, more resources. You're winning so many grants of getting all the recognition, yay. So, who are you to come ask me about my story? I mean, like, I got comments like that because I started. So, like, for the African audience, I leveraged WhatsApp. You see that when I was trying to get people here, I leveraged newsletters across the university campus. Thanks to all the, like, newsletters who were able to, like, just put the story on their mailing list, and also leveraging Nextdoor and LinkedIn. So, I got people from LinkedIn who shared, people from, you know, Nextdoor and also the email list. But back for the African space, I leveraged WhatsApp to a very large extent because a lot of people there used WhatsApp. And so, I would post on stories. I would ask people to forward to their community groups. I've got incentives for mostly a lot of people there. And I think that I had incentives, you know, was the motivation for some people who wanted the incentive more than, you know, the story, more than the work, right? At the end of the day, I think when I also now think about this, the incentive wasn't a lot. The incentive wasn't a lot, right? So, again, if they wanted to just not talk about something that painful, they could have chosen not to, right? But two things that are what I liked in it, one, that the identity of the researcher, or in this case, my identity in terms of, like, where I come from, coming from the United States, being seen as someone with more privilege and power, also impacted my ability to enter into certain spaces or navigate them easily. But it also was helpful in even navigating some other spaces. So, on one hand, it made it difficult, and on the other hand, it paved the way significantly. For instance, the family court system is very, it's very hard to get a judge to talk to you, right? But I got lucky because, well, I got lucky, but the proposal was strong. So, I got family court judges who were willing to share about, you know, just the complexity of the family court, these are these experiences of survivors. I got family lawyers. I got advocates willing to speak about this problem. And I think I didn't also know that, it's interesting because when I think about it, this is something I find personally emotional because within the African landscape, there isn't enough justice for buddies who are non-binary or trans. There isn't enough justice. And I say this feeling very emotional because there were some spaces that I entered where I just saw how survivors in those spaces were non, you know, trans or, you know, non-binary, already just completely muted. Really? Just because of the buddies, just because of the buddies and the identities. I mean, so, no one would care if they were going through domestic violence because I was in a lot of conversations with people where people just would say, if I see someone who is trans or, you know, like non-binary and they're not heterosexual like everybody, I would hurt them. Wow. I mean, it was so unbelievable to hear everyday people say things like that. And I wonder how people who have those identities, how they would, even if, I mean, I wonder if they would ever get justice or ever be able to speak about experiences of domestic violence. There is already such a huge stereotype or like bad blood against them. I mean, it wasn't in every place that I went, but it was in a couple of places. I wouldn't want to mention the name of the country, but it was just disheartening to listen through that. And I also felt the need to advocate and also not be seen as doing so much in a context that I don't live in and I'm not a citizen of, only a visitor trying to collect stories. So, yeah, I mean, it's hard. You know, like when I think about the whole thing, I think at the end of the day, maybe what I would say in conclusion is there's a lot to unpack when it comes to the many layers of the experiences of survivors. And it's complicated also because there are family court officials who are abusers, like who are abusing their partners, whether wives, husbands, or just other like partners in same-sex relationships or whatever the context is. And so knowing that those kinds of people exist and are adjudicating and sitting in courts, it's hard. Like some of these people are also advocates, right? And so I think it's just the complexity of the bodies who are fighting for what or fighting for justice, right? And also the part that sometimes there are cases where it's hard to really tell if the person telling you the story is actually the survivor. Right, that's that truth-default theory. Right, right. You know, I intern on that because – and the reason I intern on that is there's a truth bias. There's a bias that if I say something to you right now, Nicole, you say it's true because you probably haven't had a chance to not believe that it is not true. But if I have a pattern of saying things to you and not doing them, then your true default changes because now you're like, now your dishonesty cue or the honesty cue starts playing in and then you're like, actually, three, four weeks ago, BM said she was going to do this, but she didn't do it. Is she going to do it this time? Is she saying the truth? And so there's that, right? And I think also people also have a truth default or like a dishonesty default with the family court system, which was said to have been waiting on the court system for over five years. I haven't gotten justice. Will I get justice now? Do I trust the system now? Do I trust the police? Do I trust the hotline? Or do I trust my family? Or do I trust my friends? And so it's – now when I think about the whole thing and my journey, I see how, you know, like just also – initially I used to be very concerned about all the different degrees and constantly asking myself, why waste all the time trying to pursue this and that degree? But now it makes sense because now I can see the value that every of my academic journey or even just research and it's how those skills made doing this work even like very beneficial. And those skills that I had to deploy in my entering spaces that were uncomfortable or very religious, very stereotypic, very homophobic spaces, right? And so like just developing those skills and like I'm so grateful that I was honestly, you know, I was given the opportunity to highlight this very important work. Amazing. And obviously we are expecting a written form where we can dive into some of these explicit interview excerpts and we'll include some of those in this podcast as well to kind of pick apart individualized experiences and how trauma was sort of brought back to the surface through their, you know, experiences at the point system, even through, you know, your contact with them or even filling out the form. But in those settings it seems that the need to really elevate to the necessity to act on these issues and these cases of domestic violence that are sort of flying under the radar whether it's because your freedom is dependent on whether or not you can afford it in the U.S. and also your freedom in Africa through some of the interviews that you mentioned that you had or was dependent on your bodily appearance and whether or not you adhere to societal norms. So very much looking forward to seeing as well how these different experiences are highlighted in more I guess case-by-case ways you could say. But just before we conclude, is there anything else that you would like to add regarding your research and where you see this going as a next step? You mentioned it could be turned into something more cinematic like Netflix and all. And so I'm wondering what are your next steps and what are your, I'd say, what is your response to all of this? I'm thinking about it now and looking to move forward and continue to keep this ball rolling and not lose momentum. Good question. I like the last cue which is what's your response, right? And I think so like when things happen and like every time we try to solve one problem, more problems may end up like coming up. And I think it's either we quit or we find ways to navigate those landscapes or innovate. And I think my response to everything is innovate. And how I would describe innovation is definitely I can't be everywhere. I can't collect all stories, but there's a way we can leverage the virality effect, the same thing I hinted or mentioned earlier in building like a stronger system that helps this population thrive despite the complexities of other systems around them. And so speaking of innovate and virality, right, I'll start with innovate. So the innovation here is now after going across, you know, countries, parts of Nigeria, parts of Ghana, Kenya, and other places, and Ivory Coast, and even Chicago, D.C., Pennsylvania, and the rest, the innovation that is coming to me now is we can't collect all stories, right? But there's a way we can tell the story every day. Whether we're doing it by combining fiction with nonfiction or nonfiction with fiction, the goal is to tell the story every day but in a viral format. Before I left Nigeria, I had an interview with a content creator with over 2 million followers on Facebook and Instagram. Actually, the kind of work this person does is to highlight the stories of survivors, not necessarily domestic violence survivors, but anyone who has survived any life traumatizing or traumatic experience. And so I got featured on their platform. And the reason I got featured is because I keep talking about this. And so some of their journalists reached out and said, hey, we want to feature you. And we've gotten over 1.2 million views and maybe like over 5 million impressions for that one interview. And now that experience caused me to think about virality and innovation further, right? From doing this, writing the book, to collecting those stories and then getting on a platform where people then also could relate. I mean, like there were people literally on the Instagram comment sections screaming, saying, this is my life. This is my story. And so this is the story that people can relate to. Like this is happening. This is a reality of many people. And I think now the next step is Netflix. And I think when I think about Netflix, I think about, yes, the next step could be docu-series. But the biggest step, which will be like the continuous, another great anatomy. Yeah. You know, an unending one, actually, whereby we're featuring survivors who are creatives in the industry. Like there are survivors across the world. If we do our work diligently and able to foster the right partnerships, we could feature some survivors who will become movie stars in specific episodes, right, or as lead characters. We can also like maybe organize a couple of like talent aunts across states and countries with funding from organizations to help get the right people in the storytelling process. Because I think there are many talented survivors, I would say, that can also use creativity as a way of healing, right? And I have leveraged that. And I see how beautiful creativity is. I dance. I write. I do all the fun stuff that are just for creative expression. And I imagine how that can turn the lives of many survivors around. So we're looking at creating a Netflix docu-series and series where something that people can look forward to and, oh, this is my favorite act. This is my favorite character. And it would be such a pleasure to see how a part of my book and some other stories of survivors or, you know, we can build the scripts, the stories, and keep doing it as we go along. So the next step before the, you know, I know the Netflix part is like a one to two year plan depending on how quickly we receive grants, partnerships, and funding. The immediate next steps are, one, we're building an app. So we're building a software application that would connect survivors of domestic violence with safety and support while bypassing authorized and police involvement or law enforcement involvement. And we're trying to scale this globally. But we're starting off in Chicago because the storytelling started here, right? The good thing is we got accepted into the Social News Venture Challenge. Really? Amazing. So we will be taking the class in the spring. We'll build our team. We have a team of, like, developers that we're currently talking to. So we will be building the MVP in the next three to six weeks. Right. And then we can test the MVP. Good news, we started getting, like, partnerships with agencies across the city. So we want to test the app with real users. And the good thing is this travel experience has helped me forge some new partnerships across countries, especially with government officials in these countries, which I didn't see coming. And also the fact that my story was also published recently on another platform, that got attention of some people in government and they started reaching out. And so I feel the need to take this to a bigger, to the next level by, first of all, building the MVP, testing the pilot with real users. And then hopefully, I pray that we make it to the SMBC finals in May where we get a chance to pitch a Chicago booth to investors in the room. And I like how important it is to build an app that is accessible. But, of course, when it does launch, it would continue to expand its reach within the state of Illinois, trying to cover other states, and also start with some locations in Africa, Asia, and Europe where we have forged partnerships. Right. And so with the app getting the attention, getting funding, we can target and push some funding for publicity for the app. And invariably begin to also put, if possible, we are able to do something that is Guinness record worthy, which can build the virality in itself. And that makes it even further easier, makes it even easier to do the Netflix part. So I think that, I think in conclusion, what I'm saying in essence is we try to build this app so that survivors can start getting the support and help that they need as quickly as possible. Take the app, you know, get investors, take it to the market, and from taking it to the market, hopefully get more money to also get into the Guinness world record, something about a Guinness record. We haven't figured out what we would do, but probably a storytelling thing, just get the attention. Most likely we're thinking Washington, D.C., because that's where the government is. That's where you get all the attention. But we're still like figuring out the logistics of that. But I'm truly, truly excited about how all of that will pan out. And with the virality comes the attention. And then with the attention comes response. And when more people respond, we're able to build that system of action, change makers, and like a strong network for, you know, working for and not against this population. Protection. Right. And potentially we could build that strong army and we're like, you know what, can we just change the law, right, and then begin to call for more justice within the legal system. And I think on my own I'm just quietly studying for the LSAT and the executive assessment so I can, I mean we need money and power to get things done. And I'm excited to at some point enroll at the Chicago Booth Business School and in the soon, like the later future, go to law school at Georgetown. But fingers crossed, let's see what the future holds. Wow. And it seems like it can hold quite a bit. That's a wonderful spread of things that you hope to get to on your plate. And I wish you well with coming to the LSAT. And I just want to thank you so much for taking the time to meet with us here at the gate and share your story. Thank you. Seriously, it's been so enlightening. And it is motivating to hear that there are journalists on this campus that are advancing different agendas towards justice. Right. And taking it that step further and building communities. And I look forward to following along on the small insure challenge as well. Me too. And I wish you lots of success. I'm excited for that. And thank you very much again for your time. Thank you, Nicole. Thank you.