The podcast discusses the NSO Group's Pegasus spyware, which is a government-level surveillance tool. The spyware can infect a phone without the user's knowledge and access calls, messages, photos, and even activate the microphone and camera. The spyware has been used to target journalists, human rights activists, and even high-ranking government officials. It poses a threat to privacy and can have a chilling effect on free speech. While there is an argument for the need to catch criminals and terrorists, the potential consequences of this technology falling into the wrong hands, such as organized crime or rogue states, could be catastrophic. It is challenging to protect against such spyware, but keeping devices updated, being cautious with clicking on links, and using encrypted messaging apps can help. There is a need for stronger international regulations and accountability for companies that develop and sell such technology. The discussion extends beyond spyware to other technologie
Welcome to Deep Dive, a podcast brought to you by National Defense Lab. At National Defense Lab, we are at the forefront of innovative technologies and strategies to safeguard our nation and its people. Episode 80, Revisiting Pegasus Flyware and the Erosion of National Security and Privacy. Never get that feeling like you're being watched through your phone. I mean, it's like we all kind of joke about it, right? But what if, and stick with me here, what if it wasn't a joke? What if someone actually was watching? That's what we're diving into today.
The pretty unsettling world of the NSO group's Pegasus spyware. Okay. And this isn't, you know, your little brother messing around or your mom clicking a sketchy link. This is different. This is government level stuff. Spy versus spy tech. We're talking serious surveillance here. Right. So to really dig into this, we've got some seriously in-depth articles, The Guardian, Amnesty International. We've got it all. And it all kind of goes back to this thing called the Pegasus Project.
So picture this, right? A group, I get this, 16 media organizations all across the globe. They get their hands on the same, let's just say, sensitive information, a leaked list. And you don't want to be on this list. Yeah. It's a list of potential Pegasus targets. That's already creepy enough, right? Here's the thing that really gets me. This was never supposed to be public. Someone went to a lot of trouble, took a huge risk to bring this to light.
Yeah. So can you help break this down a bit? What is Pegasus? What makes it so different from like a regular virus? So what's really fascinating about Pegasus is it's designed to be invisible. It uses what they call zero-click exploits. Zero-click. So wait, hold on. No clicking shady links. No accidentally downloading something you shouldn't have. Exactly. No user interaction needed at all. Your phone, it could be infected without you ever knowing. It doesn't matter how careful you are.
That's a little scary, isn't it? Yeah. Okay. Say Pegasus is on your phone. What does that actually mean? What can it see? What can it do? Well, the simplest way to think about it is it's not really your phone anymore. Calls, messages, photos, location, everything. Pegasus can access it all. Yeah. I mean, that's what spyware does, right? But it goes deeper. We're talking remotely activating your microphone, even your camera. Hold on. So someone could be listening, even watching, and I would have no idea.
That's some serious spy movie stuff. But this isn't just, like, a theory, right? I read that Amnesty International, they actually proved this was happening. You're right. Their forensic team, they analyzed phones from people on that list. The leak list. They found hard evidence. Pegasus. Right there on their phone. And the timing. Matched up perfectly with when those numbers appeared on the list. They found traces on over half the phones they examined. It's not a hypothetical threat.
It's very real. Okay. So this is serious stuff. This isn't a game. But who was being targeted? And should we be worried? Journalists, maybe? Oh, definitely journalists. Some big names, too. Financial Times, CNN, even The Guardian. Oh, wow. But it goes way beyond that. We're talking human rights activists, lawyers, business executives, even, get this, high-ranking government officials. Wait, hold on. Even government officials, you'd think they would be the ones in control, not ending up as targets.
Right. That's what's so alarming. If even presidents and prime ministers are potentially under surveillance, it really makes you wonder about the level of secrecy, of distrust. Wow. So no one's safe. Not even the most powerful people in the world. It seems that way. Yeah. And that's the core issue here. This kind of unchecked surveillance, it has a chilling effect. It makes people afraid to speak out, afraid to oppose injustice, you know? It's like, if you think you're constantly being watched, why would you risk saying anything at all? Exactly.
Yeah, that's pretty heavy stuff. But that's just one side of the coin, right? I mean, it's easy to get, you know, kind of riled up about government spying on people. It feels very, I don't know, big brother, right? But I've also heard the argument that, you know, these tools, they are needed to catch the bad guys, right? Terrorists, criminals, that whole thing. There's got to be some truth to that, don't you think? Oh, absolutely. It's a complicated issue.
It's that balance, security versus privacy. And it's easy to think, well, it's not me thereafter. I'm not doing anything wrong. Right, exactly. But this white paper from the National Defense Lab, it does a good job, I think, of laying out the what-ifs, you know? The potential consequences. And not just for, like, world leaders, for everyday people, too. Okay, so like, what kind of consequences? What's the worst case scenario here? Well, imagine if this technology, this Pegasus, what if it fell into the wrong hands? And I'm not talking about some, you know, teenager in their basement.
We're talking organized crime, rogue state, terrorists. This stuff could be used to target critical infrastructure, power grids, financial systems, you name it. So not just spying them, but actually causing, what, disruption, chaos? Exactly. You could cripple an entire nation with a well-coordinated attack. And then there's the case of Jamal Khashoggi, that journalist. Oh, right, right. Murdered in Saudi Arabia. Turns out Pegasus was used to spy on people close to him. That's chilling. It makes you feel kind of helpless, you know? Like, how do you even protect yourself against something like this? It's a tough one.
It's an arms race, honestly. Companies like Apple, Google, they're constantly trying to stay one step ahead, patching vulnerabilities as fast as they can. Yeah. But the problem is, the most dangerous exploits, they're the ones nobody messes about yet. Zero-day exploits, they call them. So by the time they figure it out, the damage is done. Pretty much. It's a tough nut to crack. But it's not all doom and gloom, right? There are things you can do, steps you can take to protect yourself.
Okay, good. Don't leave us hanging, then. What can we actually do? Besides, like, throwing our phones in a lake and going off the grid, which, you know, sometimes it's tempting. Right. Tempting, but not exactly practical for most of us. No. So there are simpler things. They sound basic, but they work. Keep your devices updated. You know how those software updates always pop up? Oh, yeah, those. A lot of times, they include patches for these vulnerabilities. Oh, okay.
And be careful what you click on. Links, attachments, especially from people you don't recognize. Right, right. And think about using end-to-end encrypted messaging apps. Those add an extra layer of security. Even if someone gets into your phone, they can't read your messages. Smart. So, good old-fashioned cyber hygiene. But that's, like, on an individual level, right? I still feel like we need something bigger on a larger scale. I agree, 100%. What we really need are stronger international regulations.
Because right now, it's a patchwork. Easy to get around. Some experts are even talking about, get this, a Digital Geneva Convention. A Digital Geneva Convention. Wow. But how would you even get, like, every country to agree on something like that? Especially if, you know, some of them actually benefit from the lack of rules. It wouldn't be easy. It would take a global effort. Everyone realizing this isn't just about one country or one group of people. This affects all of us.
But I think, if nothing else, the Pegasus Project has at least gotten people talking. It's raised awareness. And that's a start. Yeah, it definitely has. It makes you think. So, we've talked about governments using this. But what about the companies making it in the first place? Like, where is their responsibility in all of this? Yeah, it's a big question. Especially with this NSO group. If a company makes this tech, even if they're selling it to governments, are they responsible for how it gets used? Right, because you could argue they're just providing a service.
It's up to the government to use it ethically, right? Sure, you could see it that way. But on the other hand, when you're talking about something this powerful, this invasive, don't they have some kind of moral obligation? To think about the consequences. Exactly. If they know, or even suspect it's being used to hurt people, silence them. Shouldn't they be held accountable? It's a tough question. And it's bigger than just spyware, isn't it? Think about all the algorithms out there.
Facial recognition software. Where is the line between progress and, I don't know, protecting people? It's the million dollar question. Yeah. And honestly, it's one we all need to be asking. Because tech on its own, it's not good or bad. It's how we use it, how we control it. And that takes, I think, real discussion, ethical frameworks, and holding people accountable. Whether they're in government or running these companies. Well said. Man, this whole thing has been eye-opening, to say the least.
Kind of unsettling, honestly. Yeah. But you've given us a lot to think about and some ways to protect ourselves. So thank you for that. Absolutely. And remember, knowing is half the battle. The more we understand about this stuff, the better we can protect ourselves and push for change. Couldn't agree more. A huge thank you to you for walking us through all of this. And to everyone listening, we hope this has left you feeling a little more informed, maybe a little more vigilant.
Because in a world where anyone could be watching, choosing to stay informed, that might be the most important thing you can do. This has been another episode of Deep Dive, brought to you by National Defense Lab. For more information about this topic and others, please visit our Deep Dive podcast page on NationalDefenseLab.com. Thank you for listening. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
