Kaya audacity file

Taya, a member of the Zulu tribe in South Africa, grew up in a strict religious environment. She discovered that black members of her church were not allowed to hold the priesthood or participate in temple rites until 1978. This led her to question her faith, but she ultimately found peace by looking within herself and relying on scripture. She remained committed to her church and eventually found love and is planning her wedding. However, she faces tension as her cultural traditions clash with the teachings of her church regarding the practice of labola, or a bride price. Despite these challenges, Taya remains devoted to her faith and is navigating the complexities of her identity. Taya was born into the Zulu tribe in South Africa, a culture that is steeped with tradition and pride for their heritage. She was a bright and happy child and didn't mind when she was sent to live with her uncle at only eight years old. She was the type of man her dad always looked up to, so when her father passed away and her mother could no longer care for her, her aunt and uncle lovingly took her in. She was keenly aware of this kindness and was careful to not ask for too much or to question their rules. As a member of her uncle's family, it was expected of her to be very active in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. She dutifully went, without hesitation. The thing is, when you live in an environment where it's the bustle, you know, and you have no choice. When I grew up and I was a child, you know, Sunday, rain or shine, every single Sunday you're going to call to church if you have to. Every single Sunday you're at church, you have no choice. Family on Premon Mondays, whether you like it or not. Family castle on Sundays after church, whether you like it or not. These things are like, you know, engraved and you just know you have to do them. You don't have a choice. If you believe in such a truth, you've got to obey the testimony, you know, because mommy and daddy obey the testimony. However, in her young adult years, she was presented with a piece of the Church's history that hurt too much not to question. A piece of history that many black members of the Church, like herself, have painfully grappled with. There was a relationship lesson where they talked about black people in the priesthood. And I had never, you know, I had never even questioned anything about the gospel. It was, this is the only true Church. It is the only true Church. It's because you did not know. You had no idea. Had no idea. Kaya had just discovered that from the mid-1800s until 1978, black Latter-day Saint men were not allowed to hold the priesthood, and black Latter-day Saint women and men could not participate in the temple rites. Hello, I'm today's host, Natalie Nelson, and welcome to This Global Latter-day Life. Kaya's story is one of hundreds that Claremont Graduate University has collected as part of their Oral History Project. Today we will follow Kaya's oral history and learn how she navigated two distinct moments of tension between her faith and her culture. To protect her privacy, we've given her the pseudonym Kaya. In a fun turn of events today, the founder and usual host of This Global Latter-day Life, Caroline Klein, will be interviewed. Her experiences in South Africa and research of global Latter-day Saint women's lives will give us more insight as we try to understand the landscape of Kaya's journey. Hi, Caroline. Will you give the listeners an overview of your education and your research background? Yes, I am happy to be here. I work at Claremont Graduate University in the Mormon Studies program, and I have been the assistant director of the Center for Global Mormon Studies, and I am sometimes also an adjunct professor. Natalie did not say this, but she's actually one of my students this semester in a class called Podcasting Global Mormonism. My research generally centers around Mormon women's communities around the world and feminist theory. In my most recent book, Mormon Women at the Crossroads, I interviewed women from Mexico, Botswana, and women of color in the United States, and I'm particularly interested in documenting and lifting up the voices and experiences of Latter-day Saint women outside of white North America and understanding their decision-making and moral priorities. So I do a lot of oral history work to help archive these diverse perspectives. Thank you, Caroline. We are excited to talk to you later. Let's get back to Kaya's story. Learning about the priesthood temple ban threw her into a tailspin. She was stunned that her church had these policies and was veering toward a faith crisis. So I had a lot of questions. I had a lot of deep questions that I asked the teacher, and the teacher kind of sighed around it and answered it. I asked the questions, and during the institute visit, like, I got angry, and I wasn't the only one. I think a lot of my black friends, there's not a lot of black people in my institute. There were like five black people in the institute, and all of us were kind of boiling and fuming. Like, can you at least answer our questions? It wasn't like an attack. I was literally just trying to find out how did this ever happen. So I went home and asked my uncle, you know, like, what's this? And he gave me a book by Prince of Kimball to read through. He gave me his kind of take on it. And I was so dissatisfied. There have been many theories surrounding the reason why black members of the church were discluded from these ordinances, none of them satisfactory, and many are deeply troubling. And at that stage, that was when I had to take a decision about what, you know, what do I believe? So, you know, and that was during a general conference, it was a general conference, I don't remember if it was it, they gave a talk about how when you're going through a storm, you don't go outside to look for ways to protect yourself. You stay inside. You go into the shelter. If you're going through a storm at church, or in terms of the gospel, you don't go outside to find the answer. You stay at church. You find the answer inside. The internet's not going to help me. My friends from another church aren't going to help me. It's inside. I need to read the scriptures. I need to use all the things that we have that are available to us, you know, the resources that we have that are available to us, in order for me to be able to, you know, find the answer. I'm not going to find the answer anywhere else. Kaya had decided to look inside herself and inside the scriptures for answers. It was this personal journey that gave her a surprising strength. And so I stayed. You know, I continued to go to institute. And I mean, I sat there across from someone and asked, how do you feel about being cursed? Hey, you know, things like that. And that was during that stage. It was just like, oh my gosh, it was like a struggle for me. And so I finally just, I think, continued just doing the daily things that you're doing. You read the scriptures. You read the talks about the situation. And I finally just felt at peace about it. I wasn't angry about it anymore. It wasn't. I was just like, you know what, when the time is right, I'll get an answer to this, you know. A year or two later, the church came out with a statement concerning the priesthood temple ban. A portion of it reads, today the church disavows the theories advanced in the past. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form. To Kaya, the statement did not sound like an apology, but it didn't cause more pain. And at that stage I thought, oh, okay, you know what, I'm not really angry about it anymore. I think I've just accepted that this happened for a reason. Him father has a plan. He knows. I'm not going to always know his reasons. And so I thought, okay, listen, I'm over this situation. And I thought that was my first step into actually learning the gospel and learning to love it and actually knowing what I'm talking about. When I got there and I say, you know, that was me feeling the spirit and knowing. One year later, Kaya moved to her aunt's home, where she was given more freedom to make decisions concerning church. She realized that with this agency, she still wanted to go. Following a faith crisis, one often comes away disaffected. But other times a person can come through with a more intimate and authentic faith. And that's when I think I saw that, okay, I actually am converted to the gospel. I actually love it. I'm here at the Institute, I'm doing all the things, you know, activities, I'm calling and I'm doing my best in my calling. And I'm going. I mean, I think that's when I said, okay, you know what, maybe I am converted. And you know, this isn't, I'm in the process of conversion. There's no one to wake me up, no one to deal with me, yeah. At the time of Kaya's interview, she was planning her wedding to, in her words, a tall, dark and handsome man, very noble. She found an immediate connection when they began dating. It was just so natural, first date, holding hands. I never did that, you know, you know, he was making fun of me. I was like, that's not it, you know, but it was so, and then I just, it felt natural. There was never a question of yes or no. It was just, yeah, this is it. But yeah, I've been proposed at the beach and I said yes, and yeah, I am very happy. It had been several years since her experience with the priesthood and navigating where she fits in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Now with marriage in front of her, this tension appeared again. Coming to the Zulu tribe meant that the marriage would require labola, or a bride price. However, the Church of Jesus Christ counsels against this practice, since it takes time to accrue the money and can delay the marriage for years. In the Church's perspective, everything should be done to promote family and marriage, and this tradition potentially hinders marriages from taking place. With regards to labola, that was a sensitive subject for me, because my mom, even though she's a member of her, she's inactive now. And so she wasn't there when, you know, she doesn't care what the prophet said. You know, I'm her daughter. I'm raised right. I'm in diversity. I'm, you know, I'm smart. I'm smart, according to my mom, obviously. You know, I don't have any kids or babies, and so there should be some kind of token of appreciation. Also, what people don't understand is that labola isn't really about paying a mom or family. So, you know, my mom was like, I don't know, I want labola. Kaya's fiancé had also wanted to pay labola. He was aware that if labola wasn't paid, then his wife would be looked down upon, suddenly not even respect the marriage as official, and by consequence, not welcome Kaya into the family. And he wanted me to have that respect. She's my wife. It's my choice. And she said to stay. And remember, labola is also about the relationship between the families. Kaya was faced with a difficult decision. She had family pulling her in the direction of tradition and culture, yet her faith, which was more firmly rooted at this point, pulled her in another direction. I had to put my foot down. I had to, I thought about it. And I decided, you know, the prophet has said, we are done with labola. And if we believe that the prophet is the prophet, and then we have to live it. You have to be the example for our kids. You know, we can't say we'll stop with the next generation and start for us. You know what I mean? When Kaya's mom was told the news, she tried to be understanding. Her mother's main concern was that without labola, she had no way to pay for the wedding. This gave Kaya an idea, one that would satisfy the demands that each entity was placing on her. So we did have labola in negotiation, but no labola was paid. What happened during the labola in negotiations is we negotiated how much his family would be contributing. It was her labola paid or anything like that. Yeah. And it was just a meeting, budget and basic budget. We didn't really get to dress up for, you know. The meeting was a success. All parties involved walked away satisfied. Kaya found a way for money to be exchanged, but didn't call it labola. Instead, she reframed it as a budget meeting. I love how Kaya creatively thought of a way to care for her mother's needs, yet still stay true to church teachings. She was becoming a more vocal agent in the course of her life, learning how to advocate for herself, yet staying cognizant of the people and faith she cared about. Caroline, I know you love this story. Tell us what you thought about Kaya's decision. I thought her decision was totally brilliant. I loved the way she found to honor all of her loyalties and all of her commitments. As a Latter-day Saint, of course, she wanted to listen to her church leaders and not defy their recommendations to abandon the practice, but at the same time, it was so important to her and to her family to do something akin to a labola ceremony. So I thought that redefining labola as wedding expenses, it was great. It allowed her mom to receive the money that she expected and needed, and it allowed her extended family and the groom's extended family to come together and take part in this traditional ceremony. So I thought it was a win-win for everyone, and everyone walked away happy with all of their loyalties and commitments intact. Yeah, I agree. That's what really drew me to this story, is just how wise she was in making this decision. And so labola is the practice of paying a bride's family with money or property prior to the wedding, but many unfamiliar with it see it as just buying a wife. What is important to understand about this practice? So I want to admit that I don't have any in-depth expertise on this topic. I'm not from South Africa, and I have not actually conducted interviews in South Africa, but this is a topic that interests me, and I did do some interviews in Botswana where we talked about labola, so I've read a bit about it, so I can speak from that experience. To give a little bit more context about labola, labola is such an important part of many people's cultures throughout Africa. It's often called bride wealth, and it entails the groom's family giving money or property or wealth of some sort to the bride's family, and the idea being that a woman's labor and contribution to a family is so important, and labola or bride wealth is a way to acknowledge the groom's family's appreciation upon having a woman join their family. This is a really important part of the whole labola issue, is that it's actually labola that confers the status of wife on women in many of these cultures and not the marriage ceremony, so for women to be fully accepted into the groom's family and to claim a place in that family, labola needs to be negotiated and conferred, and the last point I'll make about labola is that these labola negotiation ceremonies are actually really important to extended families. In Africa, the extended family is far more important and central than it is in the West, so it's really meaningful for these two extended families to have this ceremony that brings together so many members of the family to recognize and confer and accept this union. Yeah, and in Kaya's case, her husband or her fiance was a convert to the church, so the members of his family, they were not familiar with the church's policy. Yeah, and it would have been an enormous risk that his family would not have really accepted Kaya as a true wife if this did not take place. Right. So can you tell us why and how the church has spoken out against this practice? Yeah, so in 2010, Elder Dallin H. Oaks gave an address that was broadcast to Africa in which he spoke out against labola as one of the few negative cultural traditions in Africa. This address was later printed in the Ensign and the Liahona under the title Gospel Culture, and in this address, it's clear that he does not like labola because he sees it as delaying marriage for young men since it can take time to accrue the necessary wealth. And with delayed marriage, of course, comes the risk of violations of chastity and children are delayed and things like that. And so he said in this address that labola went against, quote unquote, gospel culture. And many scholars since then have really been chewing over this idea of gospel culture with scholars like Gina Colvin arguing that gospel culture is really just shorthand for white Western conservative culture. So that address from Elder Oaks has kind of sparked a lot of discussion like that among scholars of global Mormonism as they try to really figure out what exactly is gospel culture and whether it is indeed in some ways synonymous with the culture of LDS Utah. Well, Kaya clearly wanted to follow the church's guidelines. Have you seen this dealt with in any other ways that were interesting to you? Yeah, I did. And and I just loved I loved her story because she really did give so many details about how like her decision making process, how she figured out a way to comply with the guidelines and with her own commitments and loyalties. So another anecdote about labola is from a woman that I interviewed in Botswana. She was really troubled when she first heard about this practice getting critiqued by church leaders, particularly because her husband is the chief. And as the chief, he's responsible for cultural perpetuation. And so this is this is a really hard thing for her and her husband. Ultimately, they came to another sort of compromise solution where they decided that it would be the temple that would be the priority because they had a daughter. So they were you know, they had been expecting labola to get paid when this daughter was getting married, but they decided they were going to reorient away from labola and towards the temple. If the groom could not pay labola, they would not stop the marriage. It could still go on as long as it was going to be a temple marriage. But of course, if the groom could pay labola, they would happily accept it. Another quick anecdote or just a quick reference is this is from another woman in Botswana who was interviewed and she actually did decide to fully comply with the no labola idea when she married her LDS boyfriend. And for her, actually, this this did work out. They were able to get married more quickly and easily and much less expensively. And since the bride was LDS, that that side of the family was OK with it. And her family actually was LDS as well. That side of the family was OK with it. I do think the extended family, those who were not LDS, there's a lot of consternation and confusion and they found it off-putting and strange. But whatever, they went through with it without labola and it worked out for them. And I think they were grateful to not have to undertake those huge expenses. I love hearing those stories and listening to how women grapple between faith and culture and all the various ways that they can do that. I want to go back now to Kaia's experience with learning about the priesthood temple ban. Can you describe exactly what this ban was and how did it start and end? Yeah, so it is generally understood by scholars that the temple priesthood ban began in 1852 under Brigham Young, and it prevented all black men from being ordained and it prevented black men and women from participating in the temple. Over the years, as you mentioned, some pretty distressing and unfortunate justifications for the policy emerged. But finally, in 1978, under the presidency of Spencer W. Kimball, the ban was lifted and it is at this point that church growth in Africa really begins to take off. So South Africa is an especially complex racial area that's been dealing with post-apartheid racism in many forms for a long time. It's in this setting where the church is often referred to, probably not endearingly, as a white man's church. Given the church's history, as well as its current makeup of mainly centralized American leadership, what do black South Africans find appealing in this church? Well, no doubt there's a lot of variation in that, but from the 24 oral histories I read with black South African LDS women, I did see a few themes emerge. So one thing I saw emphasized by several women is that they were attracted to notions of benevolent masculinity. So by that, I mean that they loved the idea of proactive husbands in the home, contributing, helping, sticking around, parenting, and they just really liked the more loving and unified marriages that church leaders often emphasized. So that's one attraction, I think. Now, I remember you teaching us in class that the family proclamation was pretty widely loved in these areas because it pointed to a family that they desire. Yes. Yes. I think this also came out in some of my interviews with Mexican women, where, you know, sometimes we in the U.S. might look at the proclamation and not think it's the most liberating document in the world, especially because there is a focus on gender roles, but it can read very differently in other places around the world. And this is an example of that. Mexico is an example of that, where actually for some of these women, the idea of men proactively being good fathers, providing, being absolutely dedicated to the family. And these are all things that come out in the proclamation. This is great stuff for them. I mean, this is very attractive. They want this in their lives. They don't want men who are abdicating their responsibilities and not being financially responsible. So this is a very attractive document to many people, depending on where they're coming from. I also read in your article about some members of the church finding a lot of peace when they were experiencing such conflict in these post-apartheid areas. Can you speak to that at all? Yeah, that's another theme I saw in these 24 oral histories I read with the black South African women. They did. They did find peace, a sense of peace in the church. And I think this is, you know, we have to remember the context of South Africa, which is that they had endured a lot of trauma during apartheid. But in the church, they found ways to work with people across racial lines, to build friendships across racial lines, to network beyond racial lines. And often this was this is a good opportunity for them. And also to network with a global institution that had a lot of resources. This is also an attractive thing for them. Yeah, so I think that for many of these women, we're just ready to kind of leave behind some of the anger and resentment and just find ways to work with people. And the church, you know, did provide a forum for them to do that. And then a final thing that some South African women found attractive is they kind of like that emphasis on family history, because in Africa, of course, and speaking generally here, ancestors are really big, you know, devotion to ancestors is something that they care a lot about. And so family history work was a really nice place of cultural overlap. And and they just love being able to engage in this kind of temple work for their ancestors that felt good to them, that felt culturally right to them. That is so interesting how it overlaps easily in some areas and in other areas. It's very tense. You once wrote that many women downplayed viewing the world through a lens of race and racial oppression in your interviews. And one woman that you interviewed said, I don't see color. I listen to the message, whether they are black, whether they are white. If the message is good, I take it. This doesn't seem to be the narrative outside the church in South Africa. How does the church shape South African members' views about race? Yeah, so that quote is from a paper I wrote about these 24 oral histories from South African LDS women. And Kaia is actually an exception to this because she did speak more frankly about race than almost any of the other women whose interviews I read. But your question about how the church shaped South African members' views about race, well, I'm actually not sure if it's the church that shaped it or if the church simply attracted people who were inclined toward that approach that downplayed race and color. And most of the women who were interviewed were converts. And so they were actively choosing this tradition among many other options. But yes, many people in their oral histories, like you said, they did downplay the issue of race. And this could be because they were being interviewed by two white American women. And of course, I think there would be a natural tendency to want to be polite. And so maybe you don't want to be emphasizing issues of race when you're being interviewed by two white American women. So there is so there is that possibility. But also, as I mentioned before, it seemed as if a lot of these women were just looking to leave behind some of the divisiveness and resentment and the anger that they justifiably had about the treatment of black people in South Africa. And so this kind of language that downplayed race is just a useful vehicle for transcending racial animus and building those connections and ties with people of different races. And finally, the last point I'll make about that is that I think it's notable that many of these women's greatest heroes was Nelson Mandela, of course. And he tended to use this kind of language. He tended to use universalizing language that emphasized cooperation and reconciliation and peace between black people and white people. So when I put it in that context, it does make sense. I was I admit I was a little surprised by how common that kind of language that downplayed race was. But when I looked at all those other things, it made more sense to me. I want to go back to this concept of how culture can either be in harmony or in tension with teachings of the church. Now, I loved Kaya's story because we saw these distinct moments of tension between her heritage and her faith. Labola had placed Kaya in a complex situation that demanded her to choose between a long held South African tradition and then direct counsel from a trusted LDS authority figure. And earlier in her life, she was confronted with LDS history that disvalued her culture. What was remarkable is that she never abandoned either identity. Can you tell us a little bit about how scholars are discussing this ability to navigate between competing ideals? Yeah. So, yeah, again, I just love Kaya because she showed so much creativity in coming up with that Labola solution. And I do see it as an example of what you were just referring to, an example of what some people call plural consciousness, which is a way of being in the world that enables people to transcend either or thinking or dualistic thinking. And it enables them to see issues from multiple sides and come up with innovative possibilities. So I totally see that in Kaya's story. I also see in this anecdote something that scholars, well, one scholar, Amy Hoyt, has called simultaneous agency. And I love this concept. It's this idea that women can uphold and resist authoritative directives at the same exact moment. And so I see that kind of complexity coming out in Kaya's story. In the same exact moment, she is, on the one hand, resisting church directives to give up Labola. But at the very same time, she's also complying, you know, by renaming the ceremony and renaming the funds. That's a really interesting kind of agency that I think captures the complexity that characterizes the lives of so many global Latter-day Saint women like Kaya. Yeah, you had a line in your article about being a living bridge between communities. And I think that's what we saw here with Kaya. Agency, to me, was the main theme of Kaya's interview. We showed how she felt she had no choice in church matters as a child. She expressed that really clearly. Then as a young adult, she began to question and take her own personal action. And later, she found herself going to church because she wanted to. She was making the decision. And then the story takes us to her choosing a marriage partner and then navigating Labola with directness and awareness of her dual responsibilities. There was a part of her interview that we didn't play, and she talked about her role model as a child, which was Winnie Mandela. She was really inspired by Winnie because of her bold decision making amidst cultural conflict. Again, a nod to agency. Your research also focuses on agent of ability, especially in your book, Mormon Women at the Crossroads. Why is agency such an important theme for the women that you studied? Yeah, when I study and write about Mormon women, I am very interested in this question of agency. There has been a tendency among Western scholars in years past to think of women's agency usually in terms of resistance. And so, for example, Anne Hutchinson would be an example of an agent because she's defying religious leaders and doing her own thing. But how about women who are deliberately supporting patriarchal churches and complying with dictates? Are they agents? And there is a woman, a scholar named Sabah Mahmoud, who studied Muslim women in Egypt. And she has argued that absolutely we cannot just reserve this idea of agency only for people who resist the status quo. You know, doing so, it's falling into Western ways of thinking that really prize autonomy and independence and individualism. And so now more and more scholars inspired by Mahmoud are now examining this other kind of agency that is not only related to resistance. They're looking at how women creatively adapt, adopt, perpetuate, propel, change, and so on, elements of their religion or culture. And this is an approach that I like a lot. I think in every woman's life, whether or not there's a lot of compliance with the status quo, there's so much poignant and thoughtful and complicated decision making as they follow their moral senses. And of course, built into that decision making is this idea of agency. And so that's a lens I really value as I examine LDS women. I think that that is just the most respectful and fruitful lens to use. Yeah, I agree. I feel like it really elevated the women in your book to view them through this lens that they were making thoughtful decisions in their lives about what would bring them happiness. And they weren't just products of external influences. I want to quote you in your book here because I love your writing and I really loved that you drew so heavily on oral histories to show directly the perspectives of these women. But you said in the beginning that you found it most fair and most productive to listen closely to these women describing places of grappling dissonance and resonance as they carefully navigate their chosen religion and their cultures of origin. By letting the woman indicate the places of tension and of resonance, we honor them as the subjects and experts of their own lives. I absolutely love that line, and I felt like you did these women a great service in trying to understand how they felt about these matters instead of how someone halfway across the globe might interpret them. Thank you, I appreciate that. I always, always appreciate getting nice feedback when I write things, so thank you so much. All right, Caroline, it's been so fun talking to you and learning about how women around the world like Kaia make bold decisions about their future and faith. Thanks for being here. You're welcome.