Mental Health Podcast 3

Sagoon is a Muslim wellness podcast that aims to promote holistic wellness within an Islamic framework. They will be speaking to community leaders, experts, and mental health professionals to discuss healing and well-being. The guest this month is Samia, also known as the Rogue Muslim, who seeks to challenge the binary notions of good and bad Muslims within and outside the Muslim community. The podcast aims to provide a platform for diverse perspectives and narratives, celebrating Islam and being uncompromisingly Muslim. Samia addresses the misconceptions and pushback she has received, highlighting the importance of approaching conversations with compassion and curiosity. The podcast aims to foster dialogue and understanding among Muslims and expand the definition and perspectives of the Ummah. As-salamu alaykum and welcome to Sagoon, a Muslim wellness podcast by Nesimco. My name is Farhana Qasemali and I will be your host through this journey we take together towards holistic wellness within an Islamic framework. Over the course of the next year, we will be speaking to 12 community leaders, experts, and mental health and wellness professionals who will enrich us with their healing words, stories, and personal journeys on the path to wellness. And let not their speech grieve you. Indeed, honor due to power belongs to Allah entirely. He is the hearing, the knowing, Surah Yunus, ayah 65. Join me every month as we begin these essential conversations to promote our community's well-being and healing and to begin to unravel the ways in which we as a community can heal individually, internally, and also collectively in unity. Please note, this episode contains themes of depression, anxiety, spiritual trauma, and other potentially triggering discussions. If you or someone you know is in crisis or in need of support, please look to our show notes for resources. Our guest this month is Samia, also known as the Rogue Muslim. When she isn't disrupting the status quo and starting discourse through her podcast and social media platforms, Samia manages a diagnostic imaging clinic with previous experience in intersectional social justice. Samia is an activist, community leader, and educator. The Rogue Muslim is a podcast for Muslims about Muslims by a Muslim. It seeks to destabilize the binaries of good Muslim versus bad Muslim within the ummah and external to the ummah. Welcome, Samia, and thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor. And thank you also to the team for just the amazing conversations you guys are bringing to light. Yeah, we're really excited to have you. So first off, I have to ask, can you explain the name of your podcast, the Rogue Muslim? What is a Rogue Muslim exactly? The Rogue Muslim can be whoever you want to be. It started off, I think it was, oh God, my mind is just, like, when did I start this? It was after I had graduated from my master's, so I graduated and I was in this transition phase where, I don't know people who've gone through University of experiences, but you kind of have, if you're following the traditional trajectory, you kind of have your golden line, your vision, right? So you're going through middle school, high school, okay, the next step is university, the next step could be your master's, but whatever, like, end point your education has, thereafter, it's kind of like an open field, like, you're in the world, you're trying to figure it out, everything is different, it's not so structured, and there's not so many, you know, guidelines per se to have, to follow and to support. And I was in this phase where I was like, I really, I'm struggling a little bit, like, I don't know my purpose right now, I was working in a field that I hadn't studied just as a temporary, you know, kind of means of support, and I really was struggling because I wasn't having those conversations that I wanted to, or around the types of conversations that I was used to. And at that time, I had started, I transitioned from a BlackBerry to an iPhone, I became a big fan. I'm from Kitchener-Waterloo, so I like, that's where BlackBerry is from, and I stuck out for as long as possible. And then I transitioned, and I came into this whole world of podcasts, I'm like, wow, this is incredible, like, you can have so many interesting conversations, and have different perspectives and meet so many people. So, as I began listening, I kind of got into the Muslim circle of podcasting, and I realized there really wasn't, at that time, a lot of representation for Shias, or for Muslims in general. So, I was like, you know what, I like talking to people, I enjoy it, I love hearing different perspectives, and so I thought, okay, why don't I give this a shot? So, I kind of workshopped some names, which were quite embarrassing, and we don't need to go there, but the road Muslim kind of came about because I thought that there's so many people out there that stick a Muslims in binaries and assumed perspectives and boxes, and as well as Shias, like, people think that we are a certain way, or maybe they've been fed certain beliefs of who we are. So, I wanted to break those concepts and go outside of the binaries of what's known as the good Muslim, the bad Muslim, you know, because for many, Shias would be classified as a bad Muslim, but what is that? Who are you labeling, right, when you are giving these labels, and what kind of characteristics do these people hold? I think there's such a broad spectrum of spirituality and ways of doing life and being spiritual and connecting to Allah. So, I really wanted to bring all those different types into the forefront, and so we were kind of, I wanted it to be a place where we are breaking free of those assumed identities placed upon us, and that we are reclaiming those narratives, and we're saying, well, this is actually what I as an individual am like, and how I understand the ummah, and we're expanding the definition and the perspectives of ummah. So, that's what it, for me, it means and continues to be a rogue Muslim. I have had a lot of people ask if I am part of Shaitaan's army. So, no, literally, like, I get, I used to get so many DMs being like, why are you rogue? What are you professing? Like, you must be professing satanic things. I'm like, can you just look at the book for a second, or the social media? I pray to God that it's coming through that I am a lover of Allah, and that these are kind of like love letters to Islam, essentially, is what it is. It's just the perspectives aren't going to necessarily be defined by harmful kind of perspectives and biases that have been fed through time, inshallah, right? Like, I really, it's a celebration of Islam. It's a celebration of Allah. It's a celebration of being Muslim, and uncompromisingly Muslim, and Shia at the end of the day as well, like, because that's what, that is who we are. And it's not to say I've only had Shia guests on the podcast. I've had Muslims from all backgrounds, but it's just amazing that we can have beautiful conversations that centralize Allah. And I think in a way, inshallah, that is reflective of where the Ummah can be, when we have that base level of compassion and mercy that Allah shows on us, so that we can show on others. I find that pushback to be interesting. It kind of reinforces why you felt the space was needed, just because sometimes we, for externally, as Shias, we get this, oh, this is what you guys are like. You know, people look up a Shia country and they say, you must all be like this. And then internally, we're also kind of feeling and hearing the same things, like, if you don't do it this way, you're not doing it correctly. So feeling that balance between the external, this is who you are, and internally, you're not good enough, you're always kind of caught in between the two. And the fact that someone said you're part of Satan's army is just, it solidifies. I'm like, you're kind of falling into what I'm trying to push back against, almost. And the reason, like you said, the reason that this has been started, is to kind of dispel those biases. Yeah, interesting. How did you respond to her, out of curiosity? Or did you even? I don't even think I, I think I more put it out publicly. Not, I don't, like, I don't ever shame, like, that's part of my social media thought. But I kind of opened it up as a dialogue, because I didn't know if other people were feeling this. There's also, it's really interesting what people will assume with the name as well. Other people also, I think a lot of people assume I'm a man. Oh, yeah. And obviously, those are without those who haven't heard the podcast, but a lot of people like, you know, start with bro, or brother. So like, I always open it up to like, dialogue of like, you know, what is it about certain words? Like, what do these words give off? And why? And I think it's fair, like, rogue is, you know, if you're looking at it, in like, in like a colloquial way, so to speak, rogue has always been veering off the path. And that's not necessarily associated with goodness. So I can appreciate that, that that is a perspective. But I always was like, how do we get to Shaytan immediately? That's a pretty good one. I think I have responded in the past of just saying, like, you know, that kind of just sharing my perspective of why, why the name came about, I often find that some people like, especially online, like, it's so difficult to kind of figure out people's way of communicating online, like everyone's so different. So I always like, I always find that having some basic Akhlaq and approaching it with compassion and curiosity, it does help because I found so many times where I could have taken things personally, or I could have taken things with offense. But if you just respond with a base level of Akhlaq that, you know, is exemplified by the Akhlaq base, it really like, it just calms everything down. It brings about different perspectives. It, like, highlights the beauty of one another and brings out the dialogue as opposed to shutting it down. And I find people are really responsive to that. And I think like that, it just it's been a reminder of not only online, but in your offline life, like how you can approach people, because you just don't know people's experiences, people's previous, like, lived history. You don't know how it shapes their perspectives and why they think the way they do or how why they say certain things. It could be a, you know, it could be a variety of things. It could be survival skills. It could be just the sounding that they've been a part of their upbringing. It doesn't mean that you have to respond directly in kind. You know, like, I'm always inspired by just our greeting of salam alaikum, wa alaikum salam, wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh. Like, you know, you're saying salam and that and then you're going to respond with an even better salam. And that's kind of like, you know what I mean? It's like it's such a small example, but it's like whatever you do, however somebody responds, respond better than they responded so that you can then bring one another up. Right. And so it's one of those things that where the online sphere kind of has an impact offline. And I think in this world, we're so like, what is online versus offline? Really? Like, it all kind of amalgamates at this point. And and we're so it is no separate sphere of influence or or action or reaction. And I think it's it's just so important to maintain, you know, that level of compassion and mercy that is so intrinsic to our faith. It's intrinsic to our faith, but it's also sometimes really difficult to do because if someone's going to be aggressive and petty, sometimes our first reaction is, you know what, I can be even pettier. So, yeah, it's so true. Like, I there have definitely been times where I have wanted to respond in ways where I'm like, come on, let me just I just want to show you what you're saying. Like, it doesn't make sense. Like, and, you know, you see, I think maybe at the height of, like, cancel culture or clapback culture, you kind of I think maybe maybe this is one. One place where it is easier to react when you're online, when you're just like a keyboard warrior, so to speak, or you're not necessarily going to face like physical repercussions of what you're saying. Right. But at the same time, like, it's we still do have a digital footprint and that digital footprint has a spiritual impact as well and a spiritual footprint for this life and the hereafter. So as much as there have been times where I'm like, oh, my God, dude, like, what? Where is this coming from? What are you saying? Like, I would love to kind of give you a response that would make me maybe feel temporarily good, but and really kind of, you know, put you in a place, so to speak, like that. That's a natural or it can be a natural reaction when you're experiencing or when you're witnessing certain things or you witness certain things in the past. But I I've always been grateful to Islam for reminding me to not speak out of anger because it's always come back way better when I when I step back. And I've always like, you know, the way one of the biggest tenants, so to speak, I have for my social media is the story about Imam Ali. And I cannot forgive me. I can't remember which battle it was. But he he he was fighting somebody and they spit on him. And at that moment, he was so angry. Right. And we're told, like, he went back, reflect, like, you know, prayed, reflected a little bit, took some time and then came back and finished it off. But but he says that it's because if I had if I had, you know, brought my sword to him at that point in the heat of battle when I was insulted, the intention of that would not have been right. I would have done it for my ego. Whereas I had to go back and remind myself, who was I submitting to for this action to to have the best of intentions, so to speak. Right. And so I always have to remind myself that, OK, who am I doing this for? It's not a part of it is for me because I love having these conversations. But a part of it, like I said, is love letters to Allah. And I pray that this is part of my submission and my worship to him. So I cannot take that. And if I have people that are, you know, engaging in what I am I am putting out there, then I'm also responsible for that. And I cannot I can't put out a message of loving Islam and loving Allah while also being hypocritical and and hating or judging or asking in a manner that doesn't represent what Islam is. So I was I always like, yeah, I have to step back and be like, you know what? It's not worth it. I'm going to let Allah deal with it in however way he needs to deal with it. Um, but I'm I'm not going to lower my Aflac and that and that goes online and offline. I think it's just a little bit harder online when you're like, OK, I you don't know me. Like I could literally say anything, but you have to kind of step back and reflect and think about that. And and, you know, with all these things, with submitting to Islam, I have these like every year I give myself a word where I'm like, what is what am I going to focus on this year? Right. And so this year, my word is submission. And so it's like, what am I doing in my daily and in the minute to submit so that it becomes intrinsic? And it's not something that. I not that I don't have to focus on, because I think we're always learning, we're always going to be tested with how to submit, but it's not something that I find a burden because I've been able to integrate it into a lifestyle because it's on the lifestyle. Like when you respond out of anger or just increased emotion, you always regret it. You're always like, why didn't I just take the five minutes? Why didn't I just why did I just say the first thing that I take a breath and step away? That's really great advice to follow. But also all this comes from experience, like not necessarily online, but online where I'm like, I wasn't like I needed to exercise patience in that moment and I didn't. And so I found you on your podcast. I think it was at the beginning of COVID. It must have been 2020, like early 2020. And I was just I loved it. It was like having a one way conversation with a friend. And then I followed you on your Instagram account. So as much as social media has been a way to connect and unify, it's also kind of detrimental to our mental health and self-esteem in certain aspects. How do you think social media and popular discourse externally around Muslims and Islam impacts the mental health of Muslims in the West? Yeah, I think it's such an important, ongoing conversation. I mean, I know when I prior to having this platform, I actually wasn't on social media. So I didn't like I wasn't there when like Instagram and Twitter first started. Like so I wasn't really like involved with the discourses, per se, in like intimately of what was going on social media. Obviously, like when you're online, you do get you see the way that people will label you, the way that externally non-Muslims will put on those identities for you or those biases or the way they speak about mental health of Muslims versus the way they speak about mental health of non-Muslims, right? Like we're all suicidal. We're all, you know, terrorists. We're all abused. And we're all and not to say that there isn't, but it's just a human it's a human issue. It's not a Muslim issue, right? Like like the way that they the way that they narrate us is to be a very we're very one dimensional and we have to fit into this box. And if we don't, we'll figure out a way to expand the box so that we still fit into it. And it's still them imposing expectations and identities on us. And so I think that it's so it's so detrimental to our mental health where we're trying to figure out a I mean, we're especially if you're a Muslim living in the West, you've got these dual identities. You've got your identity of your home. You've got your identity of your school. And that's just like a baseline. You've got your identity of the mosque. You've got identities of whatever micro communities you are a part of that you're always trying to figure out how to engage and how to be a part of it whilst also learning who you are and submitting to the will of God. And and these are such broad terms, but that have like it's difficult. It's all so difficult because you're always being pulled, right? Yeah. You're always being pulled in so many different directions. You don't know which like, you know, we have guidance, but it doesn't mean that we're immune to struggle. It doesn't mean that we don't know how and where to put that guidance into place. It doesn't mean that we we know like that guidance is there. But if we're not being if we're pulled in directions that mean that we can't adhere to that guidance with confidence and with conviction, it is going to pull us in different directions. It is going to mean that we are going to have to figure out where this all fits in, if at all. And that's not to say that it doesn't fit in. It's just naturally we're like, well, how do I apply Islam in this situation? How do I apply this particular teaching of the Ahlul Bayt in this situation where actually my identity for survival's sake is quite different? And it's not to say that that's the space you should be in then. But sometimes we don't get to choose the spaces we're a part of. And so it is such a pull and a tug on how to deal with it. So you're already struggling with so much internally of your identity, of who you are, of how you submit, of where to submit. And then you've got all of these everything else on top. And also, we live in a digital age. It's not like we have that luxury of having our small community spaces. And this is all we know. And this is what we'll know for time. We are in an era of, whether we like it or not, it's an era of overexposure, over influence, over, like, we just have too much being thrown at us. And our brains can only filter so much. And we as individuals can only handle so much. So if what we are being, you know, we're not all going to know the niche little pockets of media, right? Like we're going to, most of us, or actually everyone, whether you like it or not, you're still going to be exposed to the mainstream media. If the mainstream media is telling you, you are a terrorist, you're mentally ill, you're an abusive man, you're a submissive woman, you are, you're not free, you know. You know, whole nations are going to go for an illegal war on terror because they say that they need to free women. Like, obviously, that's going to impact us. That's going to impact how we view hijab, how we view our safety as Muslims, how we view how we're going to survive in this world. And we then need to make choices. And it's not that one choice is better than the other, because we're all coming at it with different perspectives. We're all coming at it with different fears. We're all coming at it with different understandings. But it still takes a toll on you, whatever path you choose. And yes, we're going to be tested. But these tests are also ones that we don't, we don't have control over tests, so to speak. We have control over our reactions. But as you're growing, you're still trying to figure out your reactions. You're still trying to figure out who you are and how you're going to navigate it. And everyone's journey is different. Like, you know, we obviously pray that our journeys lead us to Allah and that we do have that tawakkul and that conviction to stay on that path. But it doesn't mean that we are isolated from all this other lust, so to speak, that we're exposed to. And so I think it really, I think the beauty of the online Muslim spaces has been that we've been able to reclaim our identities and we've been able to have conversations that are not, we don't have to struggle in silos. Like, we are able to say, hey, you know what, like growing up, I always felt this dual identity and I didn't know how to react to it. And now I've seen like since 2016 or whatever it was that I've been on social media, like I have seen that beautiful growth of having increased confidence in who we are and having confidence to say, you know what, I was in the space that wasn't actually leading me to God. And through social media, I've been able to implement small but effective changes that have bettered me and bettered my relationship with Allah. And I always, you know, the other thing is that AI is really wild and it will give you like perspectives that you are comfortable with or that you know and stuff. So for me to say this, it's all within my own perspective, right? Like I am in that field of social media where it is Muslim central and it is Muslim dominated. So I am seeing those naturally, those are the things that are suggested to me. So I can only speak from that perspective because that's the only type of social media I've ever known. But for others, it might be that like, and this is what I pray with the word Muslim, it's like you might come across this platform or any other platform and it could just be your one space in your day where you're being reminded of Allah and you're being reminded that we're not alone and that we shouldn't be going through this alone and that we all have struggles but we need to lean on each other. Like we were made to know one another. That's not just in like their literal sense of that ayah, it's also in like an intellectual, emotional, spiritual sense where we need to rely on each other. That's why we're here. That's a part of the beauty and the mercy of Allah. Like I always, I'm sorry, this is veering a little bit away from like the macro impact of social media and mental health, but I always reflect on Karbala and what a journey that was for, you know, being able to take lessons on mental health. Like in a moment where Imam Hussain was tested with the biggest trial a human being could go to. And yes, he had that tawakkul and yes, he submitted, but it doesn't mean he didn't use what resources Allah had provided. He reached out to people. He reached out to family. He reached out to friends. He reached out to community members far and wide to help and support. It's not that he did this in isolation. He said, and also he, you know, when I look at the men of Karbala and this is, so if we're going to gender mental health a little bit right now, these are men that show that crying is okay. That stepping away from your ego is okay. Actually, it's beneficial, right? That forgiveness has a beautiful impact. These aren't women that were doing these actions. These emotions that are, first of all, only human and natural and aren't gendered, they are reflected in Karbala through the men for a good stage of it, right? And it's the men who are showing this empathy, this kindness, this forgiveness, this mercy, this reaching out, crying, hugging. All these emotions are coming from the men of Karbala. And so I'm always reminded that we don't, even if it's among the saints, in the hardest things that the universe has ever witnessed, can go through that and come out still reaching out, still supporting, still having that faith. And then through the strength of one another, through the strength of humankind and the mercy that Allah shows, then to also reflect that mercy. You know, there's a beautiful hadith by Imam Sadiq that says, whoever alleviates a fellow believer in anguish, Allah will alleviate that for him and will bring him out of his grave with a light. And so it's not just that, right? And it's not just that when we reach out that we're doing it for ourselves. Like it is an opportunity for another believer to also be put in that path of Allah. And we don't know how, like reaching out sometimes is just the opportunity for another person of faith to also see God in another way or to be a part of that journey to God in another way. And so it's, you know, there is this stigma of mental health that, you know, you shouldn't reach out or I can't reach out. I don't want to burden others. But that is also why we are here, to be there together. And so, you know, when we see these kind of macro influences of social media on mental health and, you know, the way that we, that is imposed on us as we're like all isolated individuals and we don't know how to talk about mental health and we can't reach out. We have to remind ourselves that it's also an act of resistance to those external impositions to take care of ourselves and to take care of the ummah. So if there are mental health issues, which there are in every community, whether you're Muslim or not, it's still an act of resistance to take care of one another. It's still an act of resistance and a pushback to say, OK, we know that there is, there are people struggling with their health. And that is, mental health is a spectrum. It's a journey. We all have mental health, whether that's our wellness or it's a place where we're not doing, we're not in a healthy frame of mind or frame of perspective or actions, right? Like we all experience that. And that is, we're all going to be tested with it, but we don't have to do it in isolation and we don't have to, we don't have to expect these presumed notions on who we are. And so I find that externally we are struggling with all these different, like, I keep saying perspectives, but really those are like these perspectives on who we are and what we're expected to be. But it doesn't mean that we submit to that. We have a higher thing that we're submitting to. We have a higher power that we're submitting to. So if that imposition doesn't align with Islam, then we just chuck it, bin it. It doesn't apply. And that's obviously easier said than done, but, you know, right? But yeah, like it means that we can then, if we have these open and honest conversations of how, you know, reading this article headline or this perspective impacted us, it means that we are able to then disregard it together if we actually talk about it. If we actually have those open conversations with compassion and mercy, we can resist it and we can submit to actually what we should be submitting to instead of wasting our efforts and our time on that which we shouldn't. Yeah, I think those identities that we feel we need to fit into, whether it's through the external kind of world or internally through our communities, can lead to a constant questioning, like as you're going through your day, like when you're in the office, am I this person? Am I this person? Like when I go into work, I'm a hijabi, but I'm also this. I'm also A, B, C, D. And then you're making these choices, which at the end of the day needs you to be just exhausted. And then just questioning every, this and this and this, did I prove myself as a tax manager? Did I prove myself as a CPA? Did I prove myself as a single mother? Did I prove myself as, you know, a daughter? And then you're left kind of thinking, did I lead a God-centric lifestyle at all? At all, like in this whole day of punching myself and beating myself up, did I do anything that proved who I am as a Muslim, a Shia, a female, anything like that? So this leaning on each other as a community is critical. It's so critical. Because if we don't help each other, if we just keep judging each other, we will fall apart. We will. Exactly. And that's, you know, time and again, whether, like in the Qur'an, we see the impact of judgment. In the Hadith, we see the impact of judgment. And it's amazing to me how, I'm going to butcher this Hadith, but the Prophet was asked, what is knowledge? And he said, it's to learn it, it's to reflect, it's to implement, it's to teach. And I find we are just always at the learning stage. And we all collectively need to go into the implementation stage. The greatest, it's the greatest excuse not to implement and to keep learning. We've been taught about that by judgment. And this Hadith that you said about taking care of each other, we can implement that very easily. And that's the thing is like, a lot of this is easy if we bring ease to it, or if we give that space to actually submit to it. Like, if we're not going to, like, you know, I think backbiting is probably one of the biggest things in our communities that impact us. And whether that's, you know, whether it is gossiping about somebody's health or their decisions or their perspectives or whatever, like, period they are in their life. That is, it's these things, like, it's not, so when we talk about external media and all these things, like, those things have a really detrimental impact on our identity. But I always find that it's within our ummah, those things impact our soul more. Because those things we know are coming from Muslims who have been taught, generally speaking, you know, the same foundations that we have been taught. And we're not adhering to this. So, it's no wonder that, you know, when we're not submitting to very clear-cut guidelines, that Islam is a holistic faith. It's a lifestyle. It impacts us socially, emotionally, physiologically, physically. It has all these holistic impacts. So, when God guides us to something, he's not guiding us just for the sake of it from one particular perspective in our life. It has a holistic impact. And it's just amazing that, you know, if we can just remind ourselves and guide one another to goodness and take each other away from evil, like, God is the light upon light. Like, everything he is is infused with light. So, imagine a world where we're submitting to that light. What kind of a light world we would have? Like, what kind of a beautiful world we would have? You know, we're coming into Ramadan and it's a time to know God. It's a time to read. But I always fall back on, like, how do we trust one another if we don't trust ourselves or we trust God? But how do you trust a God where all you're being fed is primarily fear of Allah? And it's not to say that we shouldn't have a balance. Like, we should, like, God is the greatest. And so, he is all-powerful. I'm not going to say that he can't do these things. But at the same time, you look at the rest of the Quran, it's mostly about love. You look at who God is and how he wants to be known. It's all about beauty and all about love. Like, if we don't take the time to know God, then we don't know who we are trusting. If we don't know who we're trusting, we don't know how to trust, which he shows us all of that. But if we are not actively seeking to know who he is, we can't actively open our hearts to him. And in opening our hearts to him, we open our hearts to others. And we open our hearts to ourselves. And, like, I think it's just such a base-level kind of perspective that we can work on. It's like an action point that we all can be leaders of. We're all leaders of our own enough. We're all in charge of it. But what are we leading it to? And what are we leading it against? Like, either you're leading it towards the path of Allah and for the Muslim team, or you're leading it towards the whispers of Shaitan. Like, we do have those choices to make. But when we're talking about those everyday things, like you're saying, like, you know, you're going to work, you're figuring out who you are at work. And if you're good enough in that, or if you're good enough as a parent, if you're good enough as a Muslim, as a mu'min, I always like to remind myself that it's in the remembrance that our hearts feel ease. And it's just about flicking all of those things so that the niyyat is that, okay, hopefully I'll remember God. Like, I'll do this in the way of Allah. And that kind of, you know, that kind of, like, it does bring, personally, it brings me ease. Because I'm like, yeah, like, at the end of the day, if this isn't working, just by remembering Him, I'm remembering, I'm reminded of the foundations of who He is, or the foundations of how I know it's long to be. And that's another thing, you know, we're not all blessed to have beautiful foundations. Some of us have experienced a different side of spirituality, that I pray that Allah, you know, brings us all healing and shows us mercy for all of how we teach Islam to one another, or how we, through our actions or through our words. But it's just one of those things where I'm like, okay, well, I didn't, you know, let's say, I didn't go to Thursday night, right? Like, I didn't do this. But throughout the day, I was remembering Him. Throughout the day, whatever struggles I was having, I was also bringing Him into it. And so I would find, like, one of the easiest things is to just talk to Him. Like, and that is remembrance of Him. So even if we're all, it's not, it doesn't mean that we're not going to struggle with it. But it just alleviates a burden to the one who is all merciful, who is all just, who does, who has our back at the end of the day in ways we don't even know. Like, you know, when we talk about things like having mercy on ourselves or on others, we have such a limited understanding because we have such particular definitions of mercy, or we have been shown such particular examples of mercy. But God is the all merciful. He has definitions and experiences and ways that we don't, we couldn't even comprehend. And so when we put limits on God, you know, it impacts us mentally because we then are, you know, like, we're putting limits on our belief on Him and the impact that that can have or on His ability to take care of us. So that's why, like, it's so important to just, for me, what I've learned is that it's so important to know who He is now. And for me, like, with Ramadan coming up, that's one of the things that I want to focus on is learning who He is and how do I implement it in one act? You know, like Imam, I think it's Imam Baqir who says that Allah loves nothing more than the performance of an action, but just doing it, maintaining it regularly. So even if your action this Ramadan, for example, is to remember Him the minute you wake up or remember Him as you're, I don't know, watching mukbangs on YouTube because you're so hungry and you're like, I want to eat everything. But you know what? I'm going to remember where this came from, you know, like something as simple and bizarre as that. But like, just remember Him. Maybe that's your daily action is just remembering Him because it's so easy to be deluded by this world. It's so easy to get distracted from this world. And that's personally something I've experienced this past year. Like, I've been distracted like no other. I've been, you know, at one point, I probably would have said, I'm so tired of trying. But actually, I've learned that not trying to remember Allah is even more exhausting because you're then actually submitting to this dunya. And this dunya is just not it, man. It's not it. Like, it's tough. But when you think and you reflect on who He is, even in small, like, I'm not saying like you're having epiphanies every three seconds, you know, but it's just, you brought Him into your day for two minutes. That's beautiful. That you remembered Him in a way that you didn't do two minutes ago. We don't, life is not guaranteed. So if we're taking that time to just say, you know what, in this moment, I've been reminded of God and I'm going to thank Allah in that moment. Have mercy on yourselves. God loves us. God is all merciful. And we, in order to know mercy, we need to show ourselves mercy, I think. No, I'm just thinking that, you know, when we think about Allah, like we, to love Him is to love His creations, to show kindness to His creations, to expect mercy from Him. We should also emulate that same mercy towards others. There's a lot we can take from just, yeah, we know there are 99 names of Allah to know Him and to remember Him. But like you said, knowing and then implementing. Yeah, yeah. You remember Allah, you remember His attributes, and then you try and just implement them. Even if you're just 1% better in day one and day two, I think you're making progress. And it's like you're climbing a ladder and sometimes you're going to fall off the ladder and it's going to hurt. And sometimes you're going to be up there. And then it's also when you're up there, what are you doing? You're also responsible for bringing other people up that ladder. So it's like you're saying, like when we know God and when we implement that knowledge, then it's our duty to teach and to bring people up with that knowledge. And that could just be through your actions. And that's why, yeah, exactly. And that's why, again, like just having that base level of compassion and mercy for one another can do so much that we just wouldn't even like be seen in the unseen. Yeah. So a lot of what you speak about on the podcast, on your podcast, is based on the day-to-day realities of Shias living in the West. Ramadan is a beautiful month of spirituality, connection, remembrance of Allah, and upliftment. But sometimes it's hard to stay in that mindset or even to get there. Um, we're recording this podcast right before Ramadan. And I know I've spoken to a number of friends who are like, I'm just not, I can't seem to get there. I just can't. Like it's coming up so quickly and I know it'll be over so quickly. It's just sometimes it's hard to get into that framework of spirituality, of the beauty of Ramadan. Maybe it's the pressure of this. It's one month to get it together. You've only got one month. You better, you know, figure it out. But it's just, there's this constant burnout. Exhaustion. And I'm not sure whether it's from, whether it's post-COVID, I'm not sure whether it's just balancing all these different roles. It's trying to, you know, step up to the plate when we see so many people doing so many different things, uh, whether it's on social or just around us. And sometimes I think it's, some of us are feeling while I've asked for certain du'as year after year, they haven't come true. And then you feel ungrateful. Are you feeling this way or have you seen it? No, I, I really am. I, like I said, like I, you know, what's humbling is, is a reminder that you will always need God, because I would say until last Ramadan, I was on a high. Like I went through an experience and I was able to channel it in a way that I then, I became closer to Allah. But then when I felt like, like, and that's not the, yeah, I feel hard. And that's not, you know, Alhamdulillah. I still maintain my wajibat and everything. But when you experience a certain level of, of, um, connection, and then for, you know, at the end of the day, there's that, there's that beautiful Afghan proverb that says, at the end of the day, you have to ask yourself, who moved? Was it you or God? I moved. I moved. I really did. I got, I got really distracted by the world. Okay. I did move. But, and there's consequences for all of that. Like it's, it's, sometimes I find that the emotional, like you were saying, the guilt of not being a good enough Muslim. Like, that's what tears me. That's what tears me personally. Like, I'm like, I'm not doing this well enough. I haven't thought this. I haven't done this. I haven't, you know, done this amal. I haven't, you know, I didn't fast in this good day that I should like this recommended fast. I, I, you know, I have this negative thought and all these things, like there's always just something to be working on. And, and I'm, it's just, it's amazing to me. Like, I always want to know, like probably one of the biggest questions I have for God is like, how much are we stressing over that? You're like, girl, like, okay, you didn't do it, but you also did this, this, this, and this. Or like, you also like, you smiled at somebody. That's charity. God makes it so easy for us. Like, I really think half of the stuff is what I've come to learn is that I make it difficult for myself. I will like overthink it or I will compare myself. And like, you know, we've been talking about social media as well. Sometimes it is hard. Like I had to step back because I was going through social media and being like, oh, you know what? Like they're talking about this today and I'm just not feeling like this level of connection. And I think maybe the way I compare it is different because I'm also looking at different Islamic platforms and stuff, but I've always maintained like on my platform, I'm very open about when I'm feeling down. Like I'm very open when I'm feeling not connected. And I always say, I'm like, I don't want my platform to be a place where you feel judged or you don't feel good about yourself. These are all reminders and like, these are all ways for all of us to work together. But I will say like, I can't do it today. Like I can't figure it out. Like I can't, I don't understand why my mind frame is so negative today or for a period of time, you know, or like, why do I feel burdened by everything? Where there was a time where I felt very light and very comforted and very much at ease and content and satisfied through the remembrance of him. And, you know, there's no right answer on spirituality, but I always like take, I've come to learn that, you know, we talk about self-care a lot now, I think. And I always find that the way we talk about it in the West, it's kind of co-opted by capitalism. It's like, you need to buy this and this will fix you. And this is how you need to take care of yourself. And it's all very individualistic. But like we all know, Islam is holistic. And it is like, I think Islam itself is self-care, but it's not a burdensome self-care. Like there's this beautiful ayah in the Quran, Surah Al-Maidah, and it says, O you who believe, you have charge of your own souls. He who is astray cannot harm you. If you are rightly guided unto God, shall be your return altogether. And he shall inform you of all you used to do. And I think it's that first part where it's like, you are in charge of your soul. And if you are rightly guided, what is right guidance? It's to know good and it's to know and to stay away from evil. It's to guide yourself towards good and it's to guide yourself away from evil. And it's like, it's this way of self-care where it's not just for us, it's for the community. When you guide yourself towards goodness, or your community guides you towards goodness, it's going back to that light upon light. It's like, what can we do for our community just by taking care of ourselves? And by taking care of our nafs and having that mercy on it. I don't feel ready for Ramadan. I really don't. I'm not in the spiritual high and I haven't done all these Rajab and Shaban. And I think the 15th was when I really felt that little bit of like, okay, yes, I do feel comforted right now. And it is beautiful. And I was reminded of why it is a blessing to do these alms and stuff. Part of it was doing the alms together. Part of it was taking that time to just read a little bit of what we were reciting and not, you know, being a pocket to it and everything. But it's, yeah, I'm not feeling, I don't feel ready. I don't feel like I, sometimes it's one of those, if you know, you know. You know, you know when you felt ready and you know when you feel like depleted. But I'm trying to say that there is no expectation for this month. It's just to do, it's a time where Shaytan is gone and it's for me to figure out, okay, what actually is going on with me? Like, what is the distraction versus what is the reality? And I think that's something that I'm really looking forward to because I feel like I've been distracted by so much in this dunya. And I want to know what, A, what is the impact been on that? And B, what is it that I actually can just omit out of my lifestyle? Like, sometimes there is so much we don't have control over and, you know, we do have to submit to what is yours, is yours, what will be, is be, and the timing will come. And, you know, all those things are a hidden blessing. Sometimes you don't get what you, what you're asking for because there's something better for you or it's a way, the asking is the way for you to get closer and all these things. But sometimes it's like we do actually have more control than we like ourselves to believe because it's hard to let go of certain comforts. It's hard to let go of certain perspectives that, you know what, they are there because they've helped your survival. Like, it's not that they've been of disuse or that they're useless, but maybe it doesn't help you now in this time. So I'm personally just looking forward to Ramadan being a reflective time of like, girl, what is going on with you? What is, like, genuinely, what is it? What do you need from this month? And it doesn't mean that you have to come into this month having figured it all out and then I've got like plan A to Z and it's all mapped out and every day I'm going to do this and follow this. Approach it with curiosity. Like, that is a lot of life. I'm just approaching this month with curiosity of like, I think I stopped seeing Ramadan as this be-all end-all month a couple of years ago. Like, I'm going to say about seven years ago. And I really started approaching it as just an opportunity. It's a stepping stone. It's the time to build a habit. And whatever that habit is, like, you know, I used to approach this month as I'm going to do, like, I'm going to read the whole Quran and I'm going to read the meaning and I'm going to read these ahadith and then I'm going to, like, listen to every lecture possible, like, through all, like, all the Mulana and do their tour. Like, I'm going to listen to every single lecture possible. There's like 15 on YouTube every night. Yeah, exactly. How many can you get through? Exactly. And then you're also just, like, going back to we have an overconsumption of knowledge where we're not implementing it. Like, you're being, you know, it is beautiful that there is so much out there in the sense of you may not connect to one, but you have the opportunity to connect to another scholar and what they're sharing. But you don't need to do it all. Like, it's not sustainable. I think the biggest thing is, like, what is sustainable to your lifestyle? Like, God is not comparing you to others. If God wanted to compare you to others, he just wouldn't have created you, I feel like. You are here for your own potential, for your own purpose. It has beauty and it has merit. It is not for others. Like, he hasn't plumbed us all. Like, we all have a beautiful way of journeying towards him. And even in those struggles, the way we find with remembrance of him and through him, that's all he wants. Like, he just wants to be seen. He just wants to be known. And I find, like, for me, this Ramadan, like, I'm really trying not to feel guilty about not knowing how I'm coming into this month. I'm really trying to feel like, you know what? If I, inshallah, make it to the month, every moment is an opportunity and that it's never too late. So long as we are remembering, so long as we are trying to actively guide ourselves. And even if we're not, you know, God willing, there's still time. There's still that opportunity to say, no, I submit. And I see you, Allah, and I want to see you in the best of ways. So yeah, I'm really trying not to have a lot of guilt going into this month of I'm not here and I'm not feeling this way. And I've picked up the Quran a handful of times, you know, in the past couple of months. Like, this is an opportunity. Just let me explore. What can I sustain from this moment of life? Life is not passive and it doesn't become passive in Ramadan either. It is a beautiful month where the ummah kind of, like, it is such an incredible opportunity to have this focused time. And I definitely think, I mean, I know it's such a blessed month in the sense of, like, you can do more than you ever thought, than you can do usually. Like, even whether you want to or not, like, this month, still, like, time is elevated in this month. It's not to say that it goes slowly or anything, but it's just elevated. Like, every second has more bounties and blessings. So if sleep is a blessing, like, sleep. You know what? Take the time to take care of yourself and sleep because it will make you a better person for tomorrow, for yourself and your family and your environment. Like, I think that the mercy and the blessing is there. Sometimes, like, I like to approach life with a sense of wonder, which is really difficult the older you get. You become more jaded. You become more distracted. There's more pressure on you and everything. But, you know, even if taking this month to reflect, to find wonder again, like, just find, it doesn't necessarily, like, and this is not to say don't recite Quran, like, do all those things, but do it to what's sustainable to you. If reading one ayah a day is sustainable and you're going to reflect on that ayah, that's incredible because that's going to have monumental impact for how you're going to set yourself up for the next 12 months before Ramadan comes, right? Like, it's, yeah, like, I just think, approach it, yeah, I don't know. I'm just trying to approach it with that sense of grace that I know Allah has for me. No, I think that's an excellent way. I think if you're going in Ramadan, feeling that burnout, adding more pressure to yourself doesn't help get the most out of this time, out of this month. It just, it'll cost you more than you think. So, I think if you're in this month with this exhaustion, then you should take a step back and maybe just do the one or two things. Yeah, go ahead. I just want to say that, like, I think in taking care of yourself this month, like, let's just remind ourselves that when we put our niya towards Allah, everything is a form of worship and that he will bring us that ease that we are praying for. And he might do it in ways we couldn't even expect. So, yeah, I think just, I think having that mercy and taking care of oneself so that you can take care of the ummah is just, this is a month to bring out the light within you so that you can reflect that light for the ummah. And ultimately, God's light is what penetrates time and space. Yeah. Last question. So, on Rogue Muslim, through your social media posts, you explore the concept of tawakkul. But what happens when life just feels so overwhelming and tiring? Like, how do you feel we can have faith through it all? Tawakkul as a concept is one thing, like you said, the knowledge of tawakkul in the moments of, are you serious, another child, another test, what, like, she has it easy, why don't I have it easy? This is something no matter how many lectures we listen to, no matter how many harms we go through, we, I feel, constantly go back to that questioning, constantly go back to that, when will it just be a little easier? What is the purpose of all this? Like, I get it, the tests are supposed to bring me closer to Him, but I'm also very tired. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I think it's one of those things where this is, this is where I feel like we can alleviate so much burden if we just talk about this stuff. Like, I don't have, like, a particular answer, but I always know that there are, I do always find ease in talking to people and just relieving that burden. It's something like, it's really tough because you also feel guilt for not having that tawakkul, so that's on top of all of the exhaustion you're already feeling, and then you're like, oh, well, I don't have tawakkul, so I'm a bad Muslim, and, you know, yeah, you're like, is this a reason? Like, is this why? Is this a punishment? Like, what is it? We don't know the reasons behind all these things, and, you know, then it comes this, like, question of, like, free will and predestination of, like, well, what am I predestined to, and what do I have control over in this moment? Or, you know, with this test, did I make the decision that led me to this, and I should have made another one, and all these things? Like, you know, I just try and, I remember actually talking to my cousin about free will and predestination, because I was like, I don't get this, like, what is this life? And he said, like, the way he thinks about it is like a map, and you have the opportunity to go straight, you have the opportunity to go right, you can go left, you can't really reverse it in life, but you can go all those other directions, but God knows every direction you're going to take, whatever choice you make, so you have the free will to make that choice, but God willing, like, at the end of the, your end destination is God, so whatever journey you take, have the conviction that he's going to lead you back to him, or lead you towards him, I'm not going to say back to him, he's going to lead you towards him, because our difficulties are what strengthen us, our difficulties ultimately are what bring us closer to him, and it's hard to be thankful when we don't have that inner knowledge. So sometimes, and that knowledge and, like, the whole sense of learning, implementing, acting, teaching, all that stuff, like, it's hard to be thankful for when we don't know necessarily the whole, the whole spectrum of that gratitude, if that makes sense. Like, our purpose ultimately is to worship him, and so whatever test we are, we are faced with, or tests, and how do we maintain that, our purpose, which is still to worship him at the end of the day, and sometimes I find that remembering that you are here to remember him, and sometimes it, it just knowing that ultimately that's what you're here for, it alleviates, and it also fades, like, everything we think is important. If we're going to speak in, like, a practical term, like, I, I find that when I, when I hit these walls of, like, exhaustion, ultimately Islam is a religion of love, and a faith of love, so I love going back to love languages, of, like, so there's five love languages, which is, like, acts of service, gifts giving, quality time, words of affirmation, and, and sometimes it's, you think you can't do more, but I think love kind of heals a lot, and it sounds cheesy, but, like, sometimes it is just whether or not I need that love, and that's from Allah, that's from my family, that's from my community members, like, we need to learn how to communicate our needs as well. That's such a big part of not being alone in this world, and not feeling that that whole burden is on us, like, Imam Hussain communicated his needs, and then people came and supported in the ways that they could, and so communicate with need, and sometimes it's not about receiving love, sometimes to feel that, that sense of thankfulness, or to feel that the burden isn't so hard is to externalize, sometimes it's to give the love, so how can you serve a community, like, serve a creation of Allah, how can you say something nice to a creation of Allah, or to Allah, right, like, it's, it's how do we build in, in those moments of exhaustion that Allah will also, he will alleviate it, like, we, we, we know that, but sometimes it's hard to believe that, and so how can you alleviate it for others, so that you know what that looks like when the time comes for you, or what, as it's happening to you, right, so yeah, I mean, that's kind of like a practical way I like to approach with having that conviction, is that sometimes it's just figuring out what you need in that moment, either to give or to receive, so that you know what it can look like when the time comes for you, or it just helps establish your journey of tawakkul, so that you, you then know God through yourself and through others, and it, and it brings ease physically, mentally, emotionally to some of those burdens, and maybe it even helps shift perspective, because what could be a burden in one moment, you can, you know, after some time, it, you see it as having been an opportunity, or you see it as having been a blessing, and doesn't mean you're going to go from one to another straight away, we're always going to be tested, but it, it's like, how do we have this spiritual toolkit within us, that will, that we can pull from in those moments of hardship, so you, we all can define for ourselves what a spiritual toolkit is, like, mine is serving others, talking with others, like, going for walks in nature, or, you know, having conversations with non-Muslims, that's something that really lifts me spiritually, you know, like, being around kids, and their, their beauty, and their blessings, and their innocence, like, it, it's whatever it is for you, that is in your toolkit, that you can pull towards, that inshallah, with that niyat, it elevates your, your level of being in this world, whether that's for a minute, whether that's for a moment, whether that's for a week, whether that's for whatever that time period is, but we always try and, and support one another towards that conviction. I think that's an excellent, excellent way to leave it. Thank you so much, Sonia, for our discussion today. This was enlightening, and helpful, and healing all at once. Before we let you go, where can, before we let you go, where can people see more of your work? Yeah, so I, I'm primarily on social media right now, so all my Instagram, Twitter handles are at The Rogue Muslim. I do have a podcast, it's called The Rogue Muslim, and that can be found on all streaming platforms, and inshallah, with everyone's prayers, I can also get back to it, because this has just reminded me how much I love having spiritual conversations, and thank you seriously for this honor, and like, for just bringing ease to my heart today. I really, yeah, I really do feel just so much love for Allah, and for his creations, and you. Alhamdulillah. Well, we can't wait to have more episodes for you. Thank you. Join us again next month. Thank you again to our listeners for joining us on Sukhoon, a Muslim Lawless Podcast by Nasimco. You can find our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your, on our website, nasimco.org. To keep this vital work going, please consider donating under a general fund. Your contributions could land you a special shout-out on our next show. Until next time, salam alaikum.