Challenging the Glass Ceiling Podcast: Maura Marcellino interviews Katherine Chung

The transcription is about a discussion on leadership and the influence of fictional characters on moral code and ethics. The speaker shares their experiences with leadership in school, college, and different organizations. They highlight the flaws in society's definition of leadership and the importance of self-care and setting boundaries. They also discuss their own journey of discovering their leadership potential and the need for support. The speaker mentions their involvement in various clubs and organizations, including a sorority and community service fraternity, and how these experiences shaped their views on leadership. They talk about the gender disparities they observed and the importance of inclusivity and accommodations in the workplace. All right, welcome to the second episode of Challenging the Glass Ceiling. This week, we have my friend Kat Chung, who is a music journalist, and do you have anything you would like to say about yourself? I don't, I don't think so, no. All right. So, I know you are a big fan of fine arts and fiction and TV and film, so do you have any fictional characters that you looked up to growing up that kind of shaped your moral code of ethics? So, starting with basic, I guess, what you would call elementary school, definitely Jack and Annie from The Magic Treehouse. I read all their books, and as I got older, I read all their books, and it was just all about adventure. Fast forward into high school, when you were required to read The Catcher in the Rye. I think it's J.D. Schallinger. It's a very abstract and weird book, but the whole point of Holden Caulfield is that he likes to have fun, no matter what age he is, he likes to go explore, he likes to do things on his own, and he has a mind of his own, so he goes to the school, and the school has all these rules, and then he's like, I don't care about any of this stuff. In high school, you really hate the book, because it's just what is going on, but when you get to adulthood, you're like, oh, you read all of this in high school for a reason. The Great Dadsby, for example, I actually love that book, despite what people say, it's just because of what it teaches you in life, and in general, some of those things are corrupt, but it really teaches you about power. You have to understand, after a while in adulthood, that he is the science experiment, and he is tortured a lot, but he's also the one who just talks the whole time, and he goes through it, and then he appears again, so it's kind of like he's invisible, or he just goes through it. Chronic illness people, disabled people, they just go through it. Victor's an example of, you can be the science experiment, you can be the torture, but he's like, I'm still there. My favorites were, I loved animals, because I loved the color red when I was little, and also, I just loved drums and music, and also, growing up, realizing that Fozzie Bear uses humor as a coping mechanism, I definitely relate heavily to that. So, how have your views on leadership changed? As a leader, what are your goals when you want to be a leader, but as a follower, what do you look for in an ideal leader? I've actually never seen myself as a leader. In college, you see yourself as a leader, right, because you join all these clubs, and they say you can be the vice president or the president, and that's what leadership looks like in university and college, or if you get in the honors club or something like that, that's what a leader looks like in education, and I think that's what they teach you, which is messed up, is that you can only be a leader if you have these high grades or if you get into this club or something like that, and that's what they teach you in high school and college, and I think that's messed up, and then when you get out of college or when you are not in college, just in general, even if you didn't go to school, then you figure out what leadership looks like, because then you have other people around you that aren't trying to be the best. There are people that are trying to be the best in everything, but you don't know those people, so you're just looking up to them on social media or something. So leadership has definitely changed for me. I've definitely joined music industry groups, and they claim you're the leadership, or you're spoken out, or you're doing things for other people, which is nice, but also leadership can look very different, because I've seen people who are directors and they get backlash or they get laid off, and the directors are supposed to be the leaders, because they're like the high-up people, but what are they doing in life? They're not even doing some of these things that they're supposed to, and you're supposed to look up to those leaders, but how can you look up to those leaders if they're not doing what they're supposed to do? Leadership has definitely been different for me, because a lot of people in life, college, music, in general, they tell you you're the leader, or you recognize it because you're on a ship or you get recognition or something like that, but nobody in life has ever told me I'm a leader. I think you are, but especially in my life, I know one of the reasons I found you was because of your disability advocacy, and you came at a really pivotal point in my life as I was learning about disability advocacy, because I found out that I was autistic around that time, and I was like, I don't know what's going on, what do I do? I need help. Yeah, but definitely, when you post-college, even three to five years, you still think that leadership is the honor society, or you have the best of this. When you're maybe 40 or 30, then leadership can change for you, because then you're joining work or you're joining communities or something like that. I definitely think it's definitely, it's just messed up the way that society has taught you leadership. It is. I switched majors to a degree in studies this year with a concentration in leadership and organizational development, and I started taking these classes, and my view on leadership, it took a full turn. I can be a leader, and I love how required classes involve self-care and how to take care of yourself, how to set boundaries, because growing up, I saw leaders as a stereotypical, very masculine position, and they're tough, they can be rude, they're aggressive. I grew up a very shy kid. I didn't think I could ever be a leader until I am a leader. It's one of my positions with work, but I realized how much help I need in order to be the leader I want to be, and the leader that I want to be for other people, so they would want to meter off of me. That's nice, because in college, I was in every single club that you could think of, and I even joined community service club, which is just helping other people in service and you would just gain a bunch of hours each week to do something. I think what messed up, it is nice to do community service, but what was messed up about that is that the people who had the most amount of community leadership and hours and participated the most were the leaders, and I'm like, that is just messed up. Let me tell you, in life, one of my life experiences, going back to the other question, I joined a sorority, like the girl sorority in college. I joined one of those, and they treated me like terrible, but also they gave me a position just so I wasn't left out, and I was like, this is not a good position, and it makes me look like a leader. I was like a photo person, I don't know what it's called, like a media person, and I was left out of a lot of things, like parties, and going to Target, or going to late night 3 a.m. things, but anyways, that was my view of leadership, but that was like early college. That was like, maybe I was like sophomore, I don't remember. I was like a sophomore or something, but then I joined the community service fraternity, like junior, senior year, and that changed my view of leadership. It was not feminine, and it was not do this and go to this party, or you could be the director and direct everybody around, but then when I joined the community service fraternity, which is like co-ed, I learned that a lot of the masculine people could do more community service than others, because they could lift things, and they could go to Habitat for Humanity, and lift furniture, and stuff like that, and a lot of the women were in social studies, or getting their doctorates, or they were getting medical school things, or they were getting their education degrees, and they couldn't put in time for that, and I'm like, that is messed up, and a lot of the people I looked up to in this community service fraternity were men, because they had the most hours, they were the president of the community. I was like, what if I wanted to be the president, but I couldn't get that right. It doesn't matter how many hours you get, but you have to be nominated to be the president, so this is messed up. This whole thing is messed up. Even in general Greek life, and then when you join other Greek life societies on a society and community service fraternities, they're all messed up. In 2020, right before COVID hit, it was February of 2020, I joined an environmental community service based fraternity co-ed, and I had the opposite experience of what you had. We were very female heavy. We were a lot of queer, neurodivergent, heavy group of people. We were small, but no, we didn't have a lot of men. I think when I joined, there were three, so that was very interesting. I was also in Active Mind, which you know about, but it's not a fraternity, it's just a mental health club, and I was the secretary for the longest time. Then when the pandemic hit, the group had three people, and I was still the leader because I was the secretary because nobody wanted to join, and I was sending out emails, do you want to join, and I was putting up flyers and stuff like that. That was my view of leadership pandemic-wise because nobody wanted to join anything or go out. Nobody wanted to go to clubs or go to classrooms just because the environment was like, you couldn't go out. In our class, we read about visions of justice and visions of inclusion and how we should alter the system instead of totally replacing the system. For example, something that's so simple in the workplace that I am very uncomfortable with eye contact. It is a big sensory overload. It's a huge distraction. You go to these interview resume meetings and they're like, eye contact, eye contact, eye contact, that is how you get the job. That's a big accommodation that I would like to see done. I was wondering, do you have any, what kind of accommodations or mandatory staff training or other systems that you would like to instill can be related to the entertainment industry? It doesn't have to be? Definitely. I've applied for everything from retail to restaurants to entertainment to even PR to publicist, every job that you could ever think of. I've just been applying for endlessly. I definitely think in the retail slash restaurant world, they should accommodate people to have any accommodation that they need because I go to jobs and I know this is the law, but you could discard your disability. You don't have to tell them. You could just go up to the restaurant and be like, hey, I want the job. They don't have to see that you're disabled. They wanted to see that you could do the work. I want there to be people that regard your disability. They're like, if you need a break, then you can take a break. They're like, it's on you. The director is like, it's on you. If you need a break, then tell me that you need a break during your restaurant shift. I'm like, couldn't there be breaks for everybody? These basic things. Also, in entertainment, I'm not sure how many industries, but in any industry, it says you have to work full-time or you have to be a high-skilled leader. You have to be passionate. You have to be up at 3, especially in entertainment. You have to be up at 3 a.m. to find the research. I'm like, what about people who can't stay up till 3 a.m.? What about disabled people? What about people who are autistic who can't spend time staring at a screen all day? I'm like, where are these accommodations? Especially in the application and the job interview, in the first job interview, it's just a basic job interview. You don't have to tell them these accommodations. You don't have to tell them the disability you need. It's just a basic job interview. Nobody asks you that. Once you get the job, you're supposed to figure out how to get those things yourself. I think it's a little messed up in society that, yes, you should applicate for yourself, but also, these things should be in place for people who need them. For example, if you want to work at O'Neill or Walmart, those jobs, they just give it to disabled people because they can just sit at the front in a wheelchair and just do stuff. I'm like, that's ridiculous. What if you want to be the cashier? What if you want to be the stocker and you're disabled? They're not going to give those positions to those people. They're going to give them based on ability. It's ridiculous. This was an accident. I applied for an AC Moore job that was one of those staggering people in the trucks and stuff. They're like, well, we clearly can't see that. You can't do it because you're petite and you can't lift things. I'm like, that is ridiculous because there are definitely people who work at AC Moore who are disabled. There have to be. Especially stock jobs where you're just doing the putting in inventory. I hate that. It's messed up. They're based on how much you can lift or how much you can do. I've only seen a few people who are disabled do that on TikTok, for example. They show disabled people who work. What if I want to be the target person who stocks things? They only hire people who can work that long. I generally think in any industry, in entertainment or any industry, they should have accommodations for people who don't want to do things or work that long or stand that long or physical things or anything they require. Even transportation. If you can't get there, they should have MetroCards available that you can get that are discounted because you're disabled. Only some corporate offices do that. I'm like, that is messed up. Recently in class, we learned about the thing called crucibles, which are kind of transformational experiences that you get an altered sense of identity, most commonly involving prejudice. For example, in 2020, I found out I was autistic. Everybody else knew, but I did not. I remember calling some of my friends. They're like, how come I'm autistic? They're like, no. That was funny. The way autism has been seen has evolved in the past. When I was five, I guess, the doctors were like, she might not have a normal life. You're kind of outspoken about this, so we're just not going to tell her. But in the last four years, I have had a lot of understanding of accessibility and advocacy. Do you have any experiences like this? I grew up and I was born with my disability. When I was in elementary school, I had all the symptoms of diabetes. I think definitely doctors and people knew. It wasn't because my mom had diabetes. It was definitely because in elementary school, you were expected to do PE and physical things and play and all those other things. I was definitely not that kid. I had to excuse and pee and I was tired all the time. My experience is definitely different than yours because I've always known that somehow I was going to wind up disabled, whether it's glasses or hearing aids or diabetes. But I definitely think that the problem is people and society, but it's also doctors, if you think about it. They don't know what you're going through. They don't know who you are. Some of these people that, for example, my diabetes doctor, he's never had diabetes in his life. He recently saw him and he's like, I didn't know that you can't eat or drink on the metro. There's these little stigmas of things that people don't know about you, especially as you grow up. People are like, you've always been diabetic or you've always been autistic or something like that. I'm like, how do you know? You've never felt this or you've never lost eye contact or you've never been sick when your glucose was low. How do you know these things? There's a lot of stigmas, especially when you go to the doctor. They pressure you and they ask you these questions. I'm like, how did you know? You didn't go to school. You didn't grow up not being in PE all the time. How do you know? Especially because the people that teach you and look up to you and that take care of you are not autistic. They're not diabetic. What am I supposed to do now? That was definitely my view instead of yours. Nobody saw me as diabetic or autistic. I just had to figure it out from doctors. I have a lot of doctors because of my condition, but as I grew up, I'm like, these doctors aren't right. I know my body better than they do. You do. It's another learning experience on how to be your own self-advocate. I do just want to take the time to share about how I admire how you took charge and created a safe space, especially for disabled and chronically ill people in the music industry with the Limitless Fan Club. Oh, okay. Yeah, I paused that just because I was on other things. Yes, I just wanted to give you a shout out. Okay. Are there any creators for chronic illness and disability that you would like to share? I know Chloe Hayden from Australia was a big one for me. Okay, let me be honest. There's a lot of people that I look up to in the entertainment disability industry, but lately there aren't many. I don't know how to explain it. I've been to job fairs for disabled people. I've been to clubs for disabled people where they have all the people with Down syndrome, all the people with autism, and they all gather together. It is nice, but it's also stigmatized that these people that you look up to are disabled because they put them in a box. They put you in a box. You're the wheelchair user. You're the person with Down syndrome. You're the person with autism. So I've looked up to a lot of people who are disabled in the entertainment industry, but they're predominantly people who have visible disabilities. The only person I can think of on the top of my mind, there's two of them. There's Haben Girma, who is blind and deaf, and she got a Harvard degree and she met Obama, but you can't tell that she's blind and deaf. And then there's Molly Book, who is blind, but you can't tell she's blind. But other than that, predominantly a good part of disabled people in the entertainment industry, whether it's music or entertainment or comedy, are people with physical disabilities, people with disabilities that you can see. These are the people that you look up to, whether that is on TV or on social media. There are not a lot of autistic people. There are not a lot of people with diabetes. There are not a lot of people who have, like, vision disabilities or, like, invisible disabilities that you can look up to because they don't exist because they stigmatize that the people that you look up to, people with visible disabilities, like wheelchair users, deaf people with Down syndrome, people in, like, all these clubs, and people with autism that you can see, which is, like, kind of messed up. So I, like, I've definitely found that the only people I look up to are, like, rare people, like Molly Book or, like, Haben Girma because, like, those people don't exist in life. They don't show people like that in life. And, like, even at job fairs, when you go to job fairs, predominantly a lot of those people are, like, people in wheelchairs, people with Down syndrome, people with, like, rare, like, autism or, like, high-functioning autism. They're, like, people that really put them in a box and they need those jobs, and I think it's ridiculous that they show that those are people that are going to be leaders soon. And I'm like, well, there are other people in the disabled world that want to be leaders. So, yeah, it's definitely hard. Like, there's, like, if you look at my, like, following count on social media, predominantly a lot of those people that are disabled that I look up to are wheelchair users because that is what they're doing, like, especially in, like, WICED and, like, production coordinators and disabled coordinators. They're the only people in wheelchairs, which I think is just, like, that's not fair because there's other people with disabilities who want to do that stuff. Exactly. Especially, I don't, like, with my personal experience with autism, you know, you look at the media and you see the stereotypical kind of, you know, good Dr. Ray man kind of things, the white male savant, and it's like, ah. Yeah. And then the one autistic person who got casted, and I'm like, what did they do, though? And they're like, show up in one episode. All right. Well, those are all my questions. Do you have any advice that you would like to share before we wrap up? I would like to share that, like, leadership can definitely look, like, invisible because society teaches you, like, there's people with high grades, there's people in wheelchairs, there's people that you can see that they're doing stuff, like, real-time stuff are leaders, and I'm like, that is ridiculous. Like, example, the president, you think they're the leader because you see that they have the position because it's physical, and I think that's ridiculous because there are people out there doing stuff and you don't even know about it because they're not put out on the media. The only people put out on the media are the people with the titles. All right. Well, thank you for tuning in to the second episode of Challenging the Glass Ceiling. We have three more episodes coming up soon for you all, and thank you, Kat, for taking the time to be on here and share your experience. Thank you. Thank you. Transcription by CastingWords © 2020 CastingWords © 2020 CastingWords © 2020 CastingWords © 2020 CastingWords © 2020 CastingWords © 2020 CastingWords © 2020 CastingWords © 2020 CastingWords © 2020 CastingWords © 2020 CastingWords © 2020 CastingWords © 2020 CastingWords